http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/27.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net 40k player and have just now gotten myself knee-deep into Warmahordes. I have played a few proxy games and am ready to take the dive and order up a Legion of Everblight army and I'm here to seek advice on a list/ what I should purchase. I have access to all the rules/ cards for legion models and have a decent grasp of what every thing does in the force so feel free to give fully informed advice so I can maximize my learning.

I want to play vayl and evayl. That being said, I'm really up in the air about going for tier bonuses or not. I have some favorite units that look awesome, have a high skill cap, or are just plain fun that I don't know if I want to give up in order to get some tier bonuses. Opinions on this? Are the tier bonuses really worth going for in terms of vayl/evayl?

Favorite Units ---
Angelius[/i] ~ Looks awesome, can rip a light/heavy warjack/caster in half thanks to half ARM on the tail strike, can pull off some fun stuff with animus + eVayl, and the model looks fantastic.
Annyssa Ryvaal ~ Looks amazing. Like holy cow I love her reindeer with its glorious antlers. I will buy this model just because its extremely cool looking and probably use it most games because she seems to have good rules.

Potential Starting List ---

eVayl
Angelius
Striders (x6)
Officer & Musician for Striders
Annyssa
Ravagore
Seraph
Sheperd

I like the Raptors a lot, but I feel like the striders are more versatile because they can combine attacks (or not), don't take up fury to have stealth (from eVayl if I had the raptors and wanted them to have stealth). However, I love the reindeer sooo if you guys vote for raptors over the striders, I'd probably go for it (yes, I realize the raptors would have nice boost from having a flank with Annyssa).

The Ravagore seems like a super good unit. Good for assassination attempts, can be beastly in close combat in a pinch, can pillage troops via fire, and gets some map control with the AOE dmg that stays in play.

No idea on the seraph, I just figure it has OK shooting and ads to the skill curve/ possibilities of doing funky things with movement with eVayl. I could def. see the points going somewhere else useful (some soloes, Raeks, or shredders)

I've used Typhon in both proxy games I've played, and he seems amazing and versatile - but obvs. he kills any chance of a tier list, and seems like he is on par with a Ravagore (personally I think he is better) but is 2pts more. Thoughts? I would end up dropping the striders and UA + Serpah to add in Typhon + a shredder or two.

Biggest reason I wouldn't go for a tier list for eVayl is because I don't like the idea of the pot/spawning vessel, because I feel like it'd force me to take hexhunters to make it useful : ( . I love the idea of Angelius spam(3 of the puppies sounds oh so sweet), but I want to get a few diff. models/units for this first purchase.

Thank you for any and all advice : )!!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/456770/4426922.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/456770/4426922.page GMT
Ravagore is a good beast but I don't think he's going to be as good of an assassin for eVayl as it is for eLylith. Typhon, IMO is better. He's alot harder to kill with is animus, his ability to mix and match initials, critical pitch. He'll hit alot more with three sprays.

The Seraph is a good beast but again, not sure about it with eVayl. The animus is really good and it's still an assassin. Icy Grip can help with it being able to hit.

Just to get it out there, spamming units/beasts is generally not that effective as it is in 40k. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/456770/4428167.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/456770/4428167.page GMT
Raptors vs. Striders + UA ---- Alrighty, I've got you voting for Raptors. My thoughts are that you are probably right when it comes to taking Annysaa, I might as well go for the Raptors over the Striders. I really like the Raptors, but completely on paper (I have not used Striders) I just felt like the Striders might be a little more versatile. From the two proxy games I played, the Raptors (a squad of 3, which is probably what I would take -- leaving points for other/different units & saving me money from the super expensive 5 man squad) underperformed - they would miss their few shots on infantry because I'm not rolling too many dice or they'd do almost no dmg to a warjack/beast. I figured the striders come standard with stealth, have more shots for infantry killing, and can combine attacks to dmg a jack at about the same range and with the same crisis suit jump shoot jump.

Typhon vs. Ravagore --- I liked Typhon, and was stunned at how amazing he is in close combat with so many attacks. The three sprays are for sure better for killing infantry than the Ravagore (full POW sprays > half str AoE), and since I'm not planning an assassination army (i'd run eLylyth) I guess Typhon is probably the better pick. My only problem with him is his high cost, and his sprays require me to be dangerously close, I found I'd be planning my turn around him and trying to do an Alpha Strike when he got in range so that he wouldn't get mauled by the return fire/counter attack.

It probably isn't too effective, and it is for sure boring, but spamming Angelius still seems like a good option. They can kill the heaviest jacks via half ARM tailstrikes, they can munch through infantry with Overtake + their max 4 fury, and they have utility with animus/ flying. Like I said though, I'll only be getting one for my first 35pt list just so I have variety -- I can stock up on them later.

Any thoughts on Tiered vs. not iered for Vayl or eVayl?

My points stay about the same with the changes, so I still have approx. 10 pts leftover to take something if I switch Raptors for Striders + UA & Typhon for Ravagore.

Is a Seraph a better buy than a Raek and some shredders / harriers etc? Thank youuuuu ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/456770/4428627.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/456770/4428627.page GMT CRA on a warjack is ok, but you're going to be using most of the unit to get that one shot off which will likely hurt it some but not a whole lot. If you've got LoS to Annyssa, they're RAT 9 so if you're missing alot, then either you have Iron Flesh problems or need to manuever more to negate cover. Raptors do the JSJ you mentioned better with the light cav move. Basically gives them a 21" threat with the bows with a 5" retreat.

With your concern about Typhon, all the legion beasts have that same problem. If you get them in and they don't get their job done, they are likely dead. Typhon does a pretty good job of getting about anything done though.

I'm not that familiar with her tier so I can't speak for or against it. It likely will need the Battle Engine though since she's the epic from Domination.

The Seraph isn't better or worse than either of those. They all do different jobs. The Shredders are cruise missiles that you fire at something to get rabid attacks on and boost defense with it's animus. The Harrier is worth it if you are running a melee heavy army to ensure hits. The Seraph is a ranged assassin with a pretty awesome animus.

Keep in mind that not all the Angelus's attacks are armor piercing. It's a * Attack so you have to give up your initial attacks for it and extra attacks don't get it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/456770/4428713.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/456770/4428713.page GMT
I run her Tier 4 and its not only effective but really fun to play. She's more of a hit and run style caster and if she is backed up by Ravagores she can dish out a lot of hurt from range putting pressure on the enemy to engage. While you're doing that, you're jamming with Legionairres and they feed your pot, and dual angels handle armor.

Refuge is the greatest spell for Angels ever. They have a high speed, flight and reach with their AP attack. They can charge 10", 2" reach so a natural 12" threat range. Then, refuge 7" back. Their animus can knock the enemy back 3".

So here's how it works. You upkeep Refuge on the first angel. You send it in, do your fully boosted AP attack, then refuge back 7", since it has 2" reach, you are 9ish inches away. Then activate eVayl, recast refuge on the other angel. Activate it, send it in for fully boosted AP attack. Then, before it refuges back, cast its animus for 2 knocking the target back 3" and then refuge back.

At the end of this run, you should have hit 2 fully boosted AP attacks and ended the turn 12" away from your target ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/456770/4428796.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/456770/4428796.page GMT LoS was only front half of the base (is circular/doesn't matter in 40k), my Annysaa was slightly behind the raptors so no bonus... Wish my opponent had explained this earlier in our game -_-. Clearly, I now know the best way to use Annysaa with Raptors is with a flank, annysaa on one side of the board and the Raptors on the other, so that they almost always have LoS.

Yeah Typhon is super beast, I think him over the Ravagore is a good idea. I do know that the armor piercing is just one attack, but with a charge/boost, 10 ARM means I'm usually doing +4 dmg == something super hurt/head, then I animus and refuged back to safety. I really think harriers could be used to secure this dmg/kill, but I don't know if the animus is really as useful as it sounds because auto-hitting big fat, slow, low DEF warjacks isn't MUCH better than hitting on 2s, 3s or 4s.

eVayl Tier list requires a Spawning vessel (lvl 2), x3 warbeasts with flight (lvl 3) and 3 or more heavy warbeasts (lvl 4). However, she is the only warlock who has the Throne of Everblight on her allowed units list.
I would instantly break tier by using Annysaa/Raptors or Striders, because they aren't legionnaires or a legion unit with Magic Ability.

If I have Typhon, an Angelius, Annysaa & some raptors, do you guys think I should get some lesser/light warbeasts, infantry, solos, or a larger warbeast to cover some holes?

-------------------------------
EDIT for hivemind -- I posted right after you did so hadn't read it yet.

Yeah, eVayl + Angelius trickery seems pretty dirty : ).

Thank you for the advice on the units, I can tell you have quite a bit of experience and am thankful that you decided to share. What are your thoughts on my list though? It sounds like you are saying that you've had great success with the Tiered list. For whatever reason, I think the vessel/ legionairres don't look fun to play or will be that effective when compared with the raptors/striders/annysaa. Taking a vessel and some infantry with magic ability/legionairres makes me feel like i'll have 10pts towards a unit that isn't much fun.

The long range would be what I'd take the Ravagore for...but I think Ty might be a more beastly pick, especially with eVayl making him harder to charge with a free advance once they advance/charge me.


My list seems to have 2 directions it can go, and I'd love some input on how best to do this or which path to choose.

List 1 --- Tier list
eVayl
Angelius
Ravagore
Spawning vessel (dunno if min or max...max probably best for larger range)
Hextech wizards or legionairres (probs max for points)
A second Angelius or light warbeasts/Seraph with wings

List 2 --- Non tier
eVayl
Angelius
Angelius
Typhon
Annysaa
Raptors
Sheperd

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/456770/4428810.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/456770/4428810.page GMT
Legos are a cheap jam unit. They just run in there like suicidal samurai with swords as long as a man and tie everything up. The pot backs them up and its just a 9 point grind fest unit. Legos die, they feed the pot, the pot spits out a lesser, rinse and repeat 2 turns and its our best attrition combo. Add it the long ranged shots and Angels and its like a watching a very deadly dance.

The best part is her tier bonuses:
1. Solos get Advanced Deploy, so your fury management gets a kick in the butt to keep up with the Angels speed.
2. She gets +1 to the roll to see who goes first (big deal in tourney play).
3. Her beasts with flight gain +2 speed on the first round of the game. Angels are Speed 7, turn one, thats speed 9. 18" runs turn one means you get them into position right off the bat!
4. Her heavies are all 1 pt cheaper! Amazing.

All in all, you have a grindy attrition list, with an overabundance of assassination vectors available and nearly every tier bonus gives something amazing.


Typhon: I feel he is a bit of a trap with her. Refuge works very well for Angels, and even a Scythean, but Typhon is more limited. He doesn't have pathfinder, his natural speed is 1 slower, no reach, and no repulsion. That means he's more likely to be murdered in retaliation for his efforts. She also doesn't bring any real buffs so his P/S 17 attacks are nice, but not amazing, and he costs 12pts. You give up a lot for little gain in her list (IMO).

Striders/DS/Annyssa/Raptors: Are all amazingly good, but are outside her tier. I feel you can fill in the gap with 2 Ravagores for what they bring and you'll do just fine ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/456770/4428969.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/456770/4428969.page GMT
eVayl +6
x3 Raptors --- -----6
Annyssa Ryvaal --4
Angelius ----------- 9
Angelius ----------- 9
Ravagore --------- 10
Sheperd ----------- 1
x1 Shredder, Harrier, or Deathstrider - 2
-----------------
35pts

Everyone agree Raptors Annyssa > Striders + UA ?
Is a Ravagore + 2pts of lesser warbeast > Typhon for eVayl?

Thoughts?

Thank you everyone for the answers : )]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/456770/4429034.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/456770/4429034.page GMT
eVayl
Angelius
x3 Raptors
Annysaa Ryvaal
Sheperd

90$ including shipping & tax --- 14pts (including the 6 warbeast points from eVayl). It is effectively 13 points because I have no need for the Sheperd until I get a few more warbeasts. I figure I will buy 2 more points from my local game store and play around with these 15 pts. Not sure if a deathstalker, shredder, or harrier would be most appropriate.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/456770/4434481.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/456770/4434481.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/456770/4435080.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/456770/4435080.page GMT