<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "sizeism: Ratling & Ogryn replacements for Guard"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/16.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net sizeism: Ratling & Ogryn replacements for Guard
Vet. Sniper team 60 points:

3 4 3 3 1 3 1 7 5+

20points per extra model, max 10 per squad.

infiltrate & stealth - flak armour, sniper rifle, las-pistol.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
thinking about it maybe max 5 per squad, seeing as 10 dudes trying to hide is way harder than if it was 10 midjets.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462582/4531106.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462582/4531106.page GMT sizeism: Ratling & Ogryn replacements for Guard
2) Use space marine allies. Terminators are fine replacements for Ogryn.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462582/4531115.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462582/4531115.page GMT sizeism: Ratling & Ogryn replacements for Guard http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462582/4531166.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462582/4531166.page GMT Re:sizeism: Ratling & Ogryn replacements for Guard
chrisrawr wrote:1) Vet sniper team keep them at 10 points. Ratlings, and sniper units in general, are horribly, horribly overcosted.

1. Ratlings really aren't overcosted, 20 points a piece might be too much, but 10 points for a veteran with a sniper rifle? Vets cost 7 points, a sniper rifle costs 5 more, cost them at 12 points.

As for Ogryn I suggest not taking them, or simply modeling them to have pipes and tubes jutting out of their backs like they are constantly being pumped full of drugs and hormones. Say that they are simply vat grown heavily modified humans. There is really no way a regular human or even a regular marine can match the in game stats of an Ogryn. If you don't want Ogryn, don't want to do any fancy modeling or anything, just use SM scouts, I think the mentors send out individual squads, you could say they are mentors.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462582/4533791.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462582/4533791.page GMT sizeism: Ratling & Ogryn replacements for Guard http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462582/4533807.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462582/4533807.page GMT Re:sizeism: Ratling & Ogryn replacements for Guard
Buttons wrote:
Ratlings really aren't overcosted


The math has been run many times. The only 'decent' sniper teams in the game are Deathmarks rolling with Template Crypteks, because of the 2+ to wound AP1 (rerollable with triarch). Ratlings at 8 points per model would be worth the competition it brings to decent elites slots. Pathfinders at 12 points per model would be worth the competition it brings to dire avengers. Etc, etc. There's a reason scouts get Sniper Rifles for free; they're almost as good as boltguns in most scenarios, a little better in a select few, and have 12" of range which lets you keep them out of close combat while they continue doing nothing.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462582/4533831.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462582/4533831.page GMT Re:sizeism: Ratling & Ogryn replacements for Guard
chrisrawr wrote:
Buttons wrote:
Ratlings really aren't overcosted


The math has been run many times. The only 'decent' sniper teams in the game are Deathmarks rolling with Template Crypteks, because of the 2+ to wound AP1 (rerollable with triarch). Ratlings at 8 points per model would be worth the competition it brings to decent elites slots. Pathfinders at 12 points per model would be worth the competition it brings to dire avengers. Etc, etc. There's a reason scouts get Sniper Rifles for free; they're almost as good as boltguns in most scenarios, a little better in a select few, and have 12" of range which lets you keep them out of close combat while they continue doing nothing.

Here is a hint, shoot them at MCs, shoot them at units with gakky morale, or don't take snipers in any form. Sniper rifles are specialist weapons, you don't use them to kill regular heavy infantry like marines. Also, they would have superior shooting to SM scouts while being far cheaper, and still having some ability to hold their own in hand to hand. Hell you can inflict an average of 2 wounds a turn on an MC with a 3+ save if you have a squad of 10 with BS 4 guns.

Also I suppose you could use them for picking out an IC or something, but that isn't really reliable.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462582/4533888.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462582/4533888.page GMT sizeism: Ratling & Ogryn replacements for Guard
6.66 hits.

1.11 ap2 wounds.

2.22 AP6 wounds.

.83 unsaved AP6 wounds.

1.94 unsaved wounds.

Cost of 10 Ratling snipers; 100 points.

Cost of Trygon that deepstruck next to them: 200 points.

Effective tradeoff: 100 points for ~66 points of wounds, assuming they were not the target of its shooting attack from reserve, after which they tie up for 1-2 player turns of combat, possibly leaving the trygon invulnerable to shooting during your next turn - a big no-no.

Ineffective; compare to 100 points of ork shoota boys.

16 boys.

32 shots.

10.66 hits.

1.77 wounds

.59 unsaved.

Followed by a charge; 3 boyz die, and another 1.08 unsaved, for 1.67 unsaved. Trygon tied up for ~3 more player turns while it deals with equivalent points of boyz.

We see how Orks are far more efficient at tying up those nasty MC's than Ratlings, the most cost-efficient snipers in the game.

If ratlings had Heavy 2 48-60" sniper rifles, I'd be okay with them at 18-20 points. They would be a target, and they would take up a proper amount of points, and they wouldn't feel useless as a unit.

Your final point is contrary to the entire idea of snipers; if they could reliably wound IC's and force rerolls to Look out, Sir! attempts, that would be something "worth it" as
well, especially in WH40K:Characters edition.



tl;dr 2 wounds a turn means nothing when you have only 1-2 turns of shooting, due to low range and no mobility, especially when a couple poor rolls can remove all wounds while a couple good rolls don't add much in comparison.

Note that my overall 'feel' towards sniper units is to GIVE THEM NICE THINGS and MAKE THEM PAY FOR IT. I'm simply iterating that CURRENT SNIPERS and CURRENT SNIPER VARIATIONS are NOT WORTH THEIR POINTS, OVERALL.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462582/4533985.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462582/4533985.page GMT sizeism: Ratling & Ogryn replacements for Guard
chrisrawr wrote:10 with BS4 guns

6.66 hits.

1.11 ap2 wounds.

2.22 AP6 wounds.

.83 unsaved AP6 wounds.

1.94 unsaved wounds.

Cost of 10 Ratling snipers; 100 points.

Cost of Trygon that deepstruck next to them: 200 points.

Effective tradeoff: 100 points for ~66 points of wounds, assuming they were not the target of its shooting attack from reserve, after which they tie up for 1-2 player turns of combat, possibly leaving the trygon invulnerable to shooting during your next turn - a big no-no.

Ineffective; compare to 100 points of ork shoota boys.

16 boys.

32 shots.

10.66 hits.

1.77 wounds

.59 unsaved.

Followed by a charge; 3 boyz die, and another 1.08 unsaved, for 1.67 unsaved. Trygon tied up for ~3 more player turns while it deals with equivalent points of boyz.

We see how Orks are far more efficient at tying up those nasty MC's than Ratlings, the most cost-efficient snipers in the game.

If ratlings had Heavy 2 48-60" sniper rifles, I'd be okay with them at 18-20 points. They would be a target, and they would take up a proper amount of points, and they wouldn't feel useless as a unit.

Your final point is contrary to the entire idea of snipers; if they could reliably wound IC's and force rerolls to Look out, Sir! attempts, that would be something "worth it" as
well, especially in WH40K:Characters edition.



tl;dr 2 wounds a turn means nothing when you have only 1-2 turns of shooting, due to low range and no mobility, especially when a couple poor rolls can remove all wounds while a couple good rolls don't add much in comparison.

Note that my overall 'feel' towards sniper units is to GIVE THEM NICE THINGS and MAKE THEM PAY FOR IT. I'm simply iterating that CURRENT SNIPERS and CURRENT SNIPER VARIATIONS are NOT WORTH THEIR POINTS, OVERALL.

Then don't use snipers, you shouldn't make one sniper unit dirt cheap just because the guns in general suck. If you have such a problem with snipers change the core rules, perhaps make them AP4 and wound on a 3+, but don't compare completely different units in an attempt to say Ratlings are terrible, compare Ratlings to other sniper units and they are some of the best around.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462582/4534482.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462582/4534482.page GMT sizeism: Ratling & Ogryn replacements for Guard
1) I don't. It makes me sad.
2) I'm stating their points cost based on efficiency and survivability with consideration given to both the codex and the game.
3) I've already delved into sniper fixes in other threads. That's not what this thread was - or is - for; I looked at the stats he listed and what he wanted them for and gave an estimate.
4) Ratlings are terrible. How do I know they are terrible? Because other units do their dedicated role at half-strength better than they do at full. Contextual clues are important when determining points cost.
5) Yes. I know, and stated as much.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462582/4534495.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462582/4534495.page GMT sizeism: Ratling & Ogryn replacements for Guard
Ratlings are untrustworthy and not particularly loyal, little blighters are always smoking the flowers and selling the stims, bad for morale if your troops are stoned to the bone or tweeking and paranoid, and wtshtf they look out for themselves and slip off into the shadows, awol, we cant have this..

thanks for the input guys, mathammer just confuses me and i dont see how it transfers to the table.....when i was a boy you just rolled the dice, not turned it into calculus..


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