<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Vault of Origins"]]>

<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Vault of Origins"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/31.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Vault of Origins ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4531170.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4531170.page GMT Vault of Origins

Tadashi wrote:I've recently found this piece of information on a place called the Vault of Origins, located under the Ecclesiarchal Palace.

Where ?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4531191.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4531191.page GMT Vault of Origins http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4531195.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4531195.page GMT Re:Vault of Origins http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4531415.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4531415.page GMT Re:Vault of Origins SoB, likely because Andy Hoare was writing stuff for FFG and he remembered this bit:

"The Ecclesiarchy has guided the servants of the Emperor for nearly ten thousand years, but deep within its ancient records its beginnings can still be traced. In the miles of catacombs beneath the Ecclesiarchal palace, the dusty journals of past Ecclesiarchs nestle next to scrolls containing the confessions of heretics and blasphemers. Deeper into the library, fully day's walk from the nearest secret entrance, are the chronicles of Lord Vandire. Even further still is the Vault of Origins, where the earliest records are kept.

Dating back to the Horus Heresy, most of these scripts are kept within pulsating stasis chambers, their pages so brittle they can never again be read or turned. Their beautifully illuminated and illustrated leaves are cracked and torn with age and the letters have faded into indistinct greys.

The secrets of the Vault of Origins are imparted only to the most high-ranking officials of the Ecclesiarchy. Even the Inquisition are denied access to this burial chamber of history, lest they destroy the Ministorum's glorious past in their quest for knowledge and truth."

As for this "Imperial Truth", I do not recall it ever having been mentioned in a GW book, so I wouldn't bet on any references or connections there. The Vault's records date back to a time when the Emperor was still mortal, and the Vault itself basically serves as the "narrator" for the Ecclesiarchy history section in the Codex. It doesn't mention any promulgation of secular beliefs whatsoever, particularly not of the Emperor - that would probably be a shock to a lot of fervent believers, although on second thought I suppose one could throw in a bit of pythonesque humour here: "only the true messiah would deny his divinity!!"
Long story short, if this Imperial Truth fits to your perception of the setting, there's no reason not to include it, and implement a mention of it in the Vault. It can be rather fun drawing up possible connections and explanations to make stuff fit to each other, though I'd recommend giving it the "religious twist" rather than just letting it stand as an actual truth. Would work much better with the Ecclesiarchy's mindset.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4531942.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4531942.page GMT Re:Vault of Origins

Lynata wrote:

As for this "Imperial Truth", I do not recall it ever having been mentioned in a GW book, so I wouldn't bet on any references or connections there. The Vault's records date back to a time when the Emperor was still mortal, and the Vault itself basically serves as the "narrator" for the Ecclesiarchy history section in the Codex. It doesn't mention any promulgation of secular beliefs whatsoever, particularly not of the Emperor - that would probably be a shock to a lot of fervent believers, although on second thought I suppose one could throw in a bit of pythonesque humour here: "only the true messiah would deny his divinity!!"
Long story short, if this Imperial Truth fits to your perception of the setting, there's no reason not to include it, and implement a mention of it in the Vault. It can be rather fun drawing up possible connections and explanations to make stuff fit to each other, though I'd recommend giving it the "religious twist" rather than just letting it stand as an actual truth. Would work much better with the Ecclesiarchy's mindset.

Considering that the Horus Heresy novels (which are the new canon for the Horus Heresy as per GW) make it clear the Imperial truth was the Imperium's original doctrine, it would thus be logical to assume that the ones who had the Vault made decided not to include any references to the Imperial Truth or the Emperor's own opposition to his worship (such as the Condemnation of Monarchia) as this could possibly lead to a civil war. Which begs a question: the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition have no direct authority over the Space Marines - those Chapters dating back to the Second Founding would probably have the records of the Imperial Truth dating back to the legions and the Great Crusade. If so, have they ever considered using that knowledge as 'leverage'?

The only thing that might date back to the Great Crusade itself could be a copy of the Lectitio Divinitatus. Whose author was Lorgar the Aurelian. Does the Ecclesiarchy know this? Do they realize that their faith is a product of one of the greatest traitors in Imperial history?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4534337.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4534337.page GMT Re:Vault of Origins

Tadashi wrote:Which begs a question: the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition have no direct authority over the Space Marines - those Chapters dating back to the Second Founding would probably have the records of the Imperial Truth dating back to the legions and the Great Crusade. If so, have they ever considered using that knowledge as 'leverage'?

I don't see how they could - everybody would simply disregard any such claims as heretical lies. What proof could they have? Short of Emps getting off his seat and declaring it BS Himself, any possible documents would simply be discarded as fake and their owners excommunicated as traitors attempting to undermine the Imperium's stability.

Also, both the Ecclesiarchy as well as the Inquisition do occasionally exercise a sort of authority over the Marines. The Inquisition is operating in the Emperor's name Himself, and in spite of what some Marine players think (I do remember the threads about this issue) the studio sources make repeated references to the Inquisition being well within its rights to demand stuff from the Astartes - in theory at least. With the Ecclesiarchy, however, it is far more blurred: the Orders Militant often call upon the basic tenets of the Imperial Creed as justification for their actions, simply assuming a position of authority in doing so, and possibly "abusing" their good relationship with the Ordo Hereticus to get away with it. I recall General Kurov of the Armageddon Command Guard referencing the Argent Shroud's "mandate to police Imperial armed forces" in connection with this Order's attack on the Angels Vermillion Chapter, yet I suspect this mandate is a self-assumed responsibility rather than something actively approved by the High Lords. At the end of the day, a lot of Imperial factions just get away with gak like this because nobody dares to chastise them for it - the more you tug on the individual strands that make up the Imperium, the more you risk it all falling apart. So the most that happens is usually the responsible commander being replaced and/or eliminated, and I expect the Inquisition to play a large role in "balancing" the various factions' relationships this way. At least that's what I was taking away from reading the stuff.

In a way, if you think of the Imperium, imagine a kindergarten class with lots of squabbling children all representing the various Adepta, and the teacher is the Inquisition trying to keep the peace, occasionally sending one of them into the corner.

And if some Marine Chapter Master showed up with claims like these, it's him who would be sent into that corner. Forcefully.

Tadashi wrote:The only thing that might date back to the Great Crusade itself could be a copy of the Lectitio Divinitatus. Whose author was Lorgar the Aurelian. Does the Ecclesiarchy know this? Do they realize that their faith is a product of one of the greatest traitors in Imperial history?

Another name that never actually popped up in a GW book, I think. As per the Codex material so far, the origin of Imperial Faith is attributed to some guy called "Fatidicus" - an Imperial Navy officer whose original name has supposedly become lost long ago, and who established the "Temple of the Saviour Emperor" out of the ranks of military officers, clerks and scribes, with their original powerbase being the Imperial forces of Terra, shortly after the Emperor's sacrifice.
It may be worth noting that, at least as per GW material, there were numerous little cults formed in the wake of the Emperor's death, all competing for supremacy, and that the Temple of the Saviour Emperor just had a lot of advantages (such as being centered on Earth, or having a lot of influence with the military) that ultimately saw it prevail over its rivals, either absorbing them entirely or wiping them out. So if you'd want to include this Lectitio Divinatatus into your interpretation of the setting, I suppose it would be one of the many small puzzle parts that ended up being integrated into the Ecclesiarchy at some point in time (or being destroyed).

Also, obligatory:

Tadashi wrote:which are the new canon for the Horus Heresy as per GW

Canon? In 40k?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4534396.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4534396.page GMT Re:Vault of Origins

Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Short of Emps getting off his seat and declaring it BS Himself, any possible documents would simply be discarded as fake and their owners excommunicated as traitors attempting to undermine the Imperium's stability.

In the impossible event it happens...Monarchia II, here we come.

the more you tug on the individual strands that make up the Imperium, the more you risk it all falling apart. So the most that happens is usually the responsible commander being replaced and/or eliminated, and I expect the Inquisition to play a large role in "balancing" the various factions' relationships this way. At least that's what I was taking away from reading the stuff.

I recall someone posting once that the Imperium resembled a plane on auto-pilot - everything the Imperium does is never actually done by the pilot (the Emperor), who's either comatose or dead, and everything is just an instinctive reaction to an outside stimulus by the auto-pilot (the High Lords and the Adeptus Terra).

In a why, if you think of the Imperium, imagine a kindergarten class with lots of squabbling children all representing the various Adepta, and the teacher is the Inquisition trying to keep the peace, occasionally sending one of them into the corner.

Before kindergarten...there was nursery.

And if some Marine Chapter Master showed up with claims like these, it's him who would be sent into that corner. Forcefully.

Not necessarily...the Wolves' Chapter Master did something similar over Armageddon...sparking a minor civil war and even killing a Khornate Knight Grand Master or something.

Tadashi wrote:which are the new canon for the Horus Heresy as per GW
Canon? In 40k?

Fair enough...

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4534419.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4534419.page GMT Re:Vault of Origins

Tadashi wrote:I recall someone posting once that the Imperium resembled a plain on auto-pilot - everything the Imperium does is never actually done by the pilot (the Emperor), who's either comatose or dead, and everything is just an instinctive reaction to an outside stimulus by the auto-pilot (the High Lords and the Adeptus Terra.

Yeah, imo that's not a bad comparison, actually.

GW's Inquisitor RPG even had an introductory short story about some Inquisitors being aware of a way to resurrect the Emperor - and simply choosing to "not do it", as that might be bad for the IoM that exists now, and they just prefer Him as a figurehead to unite people behind:

Spoiler:

Tadashi wrote:Before kindergarten...there was nursery.

Yeah, I remembered that picture the moment I wrote that line.

Tadashi wrote:Not necessarily...the Wolves' Chapter Master did something similar over Armageddon...sparking a minor civil war and even killing a Khornate Knight Grand Master or something.

Weren't they "just" disagreeing on what to do with the Imperial Guard survivors? I've never heard of them Wolves threatening to unveil some sort of proof that the Ecclesiarchy was a scam.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4534440.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4534440.page GMT Re:Vault of Origins

Lynata wrote:

Spoiler:

A big mistake in my opinion. They should have at least tried, or consulted one of the Primarchs. The Emperor would have expected that, but by the looks of the conversation, they had already slipped into the fatalistic determinism of the Imperial Cult as opposed to open-minded and innovative mind set of the Imperial Truth.

Tadashi wrote:Not necessarily...the Wolves' Chapter Master did something similar over Armageddon...sparking a minor civil war and even killing a Khornate Knight Grand Master or something.
Weren't they "just" disagreeing on what to do with the Imperial Guard survivors? I've never heard of them Wolves threatening to unveil some sort of proof that the Ecclesiarchy was a scam.

My point was just because a Chapter Master makes a lot of noise the Inquisition can't just throw its power around...especially against a Second Founding Chapter.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4534473.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4534473.page GMT Re:Vault of Origins

Tadashi wrote:

Lynata wrote:
Tadashi wrote:
Not necessarily...the Wolves' Chapter Master did something similar over Armageddon...sparking a minor civil war and even killing a Khornate Knight Grand Master or something.
Weren't they "just" disagreeing on what to do with the Imperial Guard survivors? I've never heard of them Wolves threatening to unveil some sort of proof that the Ecclesiarchy was a scam.

My point was just because a Chapter Master makes a lot of noise the Inquisition can't just throw its power around...especially against a Second Founding Chapter.

Codicium Imperialis

Instead, the Administratum and the Inquisition set in motion a plan that would allow the planet’s industrial capacity to recover, without the truth of the conflict becoming known. Every man, woman and child who had fought against Angron’s horde was rounded up by troops drafted in from other warzones, sterilised and relocated to enormous forced-labour camps situated far to the south of Armageddon Secundus

Only one man dared protest against this ultimate sanction, this most craven of betrayals. Logan Grimnar, Great Wolf of the Space Wolf Chapter made his opposition plain, and, privately, many agreed with him. Though he could not sway the faceless adepts of the Administratum,

So not a 2nd founding chapter, as far as we know, but I think the sentiment still applies.

IA: Celestial Lions: The Celestial Lions were highly vocal in their condemnation of the Inquisitor's actions and began a series of loud and highly public criticisms of him and the entire Inquisition.

IA: Celestial Lions: The Inquisition answers to no-one but the Emperor himself.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4534591.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4534591.page GMT Re:Vault of Origins
Space Marine Chapters, depending on their importance and history, can get away with an awful lot - even up to refusing an Inquisitor's request for aid. But if this stubborn resistance against outside authority ends up hurting the IoM, then none are above judgment - not even the Astartes (see 3E-C:WH potential battle narratives on why Witch Hunters would fight Space Marines).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4534971.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4534971.page GMT Re:Vault of Origins

Lynata wrote:Plus, the sterilisation of a planetary population is, I think, a far less pressing issue than the continued existence of the fabric of the Imperium itself.

Space Marine Chapters, depending on their importance and history, can get away with an awful lot - even up to refusing an Inquisitor's request for aid. But if this stubborn resistance against outside authority ends up hurting the IoM, then none are above judgment - not even the Astartes (see 3E-C:WH potential battle narratives on why Witch Hunters would fight Space Marines).

The Unforgiven seem to be doing just fine despite their tendency to just walk off on some errand of their own from time to time, or to kill anyone trying to poke around. Last I recall, the Wolves also blew Ecclesiarchy and Sororitas vessels out of the sky for entering Fenris' airspace.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535077.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535077.page GMT Re:Vault of Origins

Tadashi wrote:The Unforgiven seem to be doing just fine despite their tendency to just walk off on some errand of their own from time to time, or to kill anyone trying to poke around. Last I recall, the Wolves also blew Ecclesiarchy and Sororitas vessels out of the sky for entering Fenris' airspace.

Yeah, the Space Wolves are "special" and pretty much the only one who seems to have a "get out of jail free" card when it comes to Imperial retribution. Their whole fluff makes a mockery out of 40k, which is why I dislike it immensely. Way too Mary-Sue for my tastes.
And I believe it was an Inquisition vessel they blew up. Those Ministorum priests you are referring to were murdered in front of the Fang's door, and with the Sororitas they waged a three-weeks war on the ground for that.

The Dark Angels are less of an issue as they mostly just seem to walk away - just showing up in the first place already counts for something, I guess, and from how it sounded like they seem to mumble some sort of excuse about how their Chapter was needed elsewhere. I was under the impression they seem to have more trouble with other Marine Chapters (particularly the Black Templars) than with the Inquisition.

Either way, armed conflict, if happening on a limited scope like that, isn't exactly a threat to the Imperium. Attempting to dismantle the Ecclesiarchy as a whole would be, as the role of faith has become way too important for the Imperium. I suppose if the Space Wolves were to try and invade, say, Ophelia VII rather than just defending their own world it would trigger a different reaction as well. Or at least it should, but ... eh, it's the Space Wolves, so who knows.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535127.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535127.page GMT Re:Vault of Origins

Lynata wrote:

Either way, armed conflict, if happening on a limited scope like that, isn't exactly a threat to the Imperium. Attempting to dismantle the Ecclesiarchy as a whole would be, as the role of faith has become way too important for the Imperium. I suppose if the Space Wolves were to try and invade, say, Ophelia VII rather than just defending their own world it would trigger a different reaction as well. Or at least it should, but ... eh, it's the Space Wolves, so who knows.

I wonder how the Ecclesiarchy would react when the old man wakes up and goes medieval on their asses. Or Ophelia VII goes the way of Monarchia, with an entire legion with the Emperor on the front accompanied by a Primarch burning everthing to ashes just to make a point. Imagine, their own 'god' telling them he's not a god, and together with a person who's supposed to be saint reducing everything their faith and livelihood stood for to ash and cinders. Just to put salt in the wound, the Emperor then FORCES them to kneel on the ashes and makes them renounce their faith and accept, well, reason, truth, and enlightenment. That would be something to see.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535153.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535153.page GMT Re:Vault of Origins

Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:The Unforgiven seem to be doing just fine despite their tendency to just walk off on some errand of their own from time to time, or to kill anyone trying to poke around. Last I recall, the Wolves also blew Ecclesiarchy and Sororitas vessels out of the sky for entering Fenris' airspace.

Was that during the Reign of Blood though? I guess an Eccelsiarchal 'Sorry for attacking your homeworld, we weren't quite ourselves' happened.

Lynata wrote:The Dark Angels are less of an issue as they mostly just seem to walk away - just showing up in the first place already counts for something, I guess, and from how it sounded like they seem to mumble some sort of excuse about how their Chapter was needed elsewhere. I was under the impression they seem to have more trouble with other Marine Chapters (particularly the Black Templars) than with the Inquisition.

Do the Inquisition even know about the Dark Angels past? I thought it was just the Dark Angels and the Emperor who knew. If that's the case and the Dark Angels generally keep their noses clean, why would the Inquisition be interested in them.

Tadashi wrote:
Lynata wrote:

Either way, armed conflict, if happening on a limited scope like that, isn't exactly a threat to the Imperium. Attempting to dismantle the Ecclesiarchy as a whole would be, as the role of faith has become way too important for the Imperium. I suppose if the Space Wolves were to try and invade, say, Ophelia VII rather than just defending their own world it would trigger a different reaction as well. Or at least it should, but ... eh, it's the Space Wolves, so who knows.

I wonder how the Ecclesiarchy would react when the old man wakes up and goes medieval on their asses. Or Ophelia VII goes the way of Monarchia, with an entire legion with the Emperor on the front accompanied by a Primarch burning everthing to ashes just to make a point. Imagine, their own 'god' telling them he's not a god, and together with a person who's supposed to be saint reducing everything their faith and livelihood stood for to ash and cinders. Just to put salt in the wound, the Emperor then FORCES them to kneel on the ashes and makes them renounce their faith and accept, well, reason, truth, and enlightenment. That would be something to see.

Maybe he realises the good that it has done for the Imperium, think if there wasn't any one singular thing for the masses to believe in, Would they still be united after all this time?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535164.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535164.page GMT Re:Vault of Origins

Pilau Rice wrote:

Maybe he realises the good that it has done for the Imperium, think if there wasn't any one singular thing for the masses to believe in, Would they still be united after all this time?

Nope. He hates religion. The only reason he allows them to worship him is because he's not around. But when he's back...DIE, YOU IGNORANT CLERICS, DIE! After all, he can personally reinforce the idea that he's just Human. Somehow, I feel a great deal of attraction to the idea of burning down the entire Imperial Church. And besides, the only good the Ecclesiarchy's ever done is to keep the masses together, no progress has been made at all in ten thousand years, all attempts at creating something new being shot down even before it has a chance to work.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535187.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535187.page GMT Re:Vault of Origins

Tadashi wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Either way, armed conflict, if happening on a limited scope like that, isn't exactly a threat to the Imperium. Attempting to dismantle the Ecclesiarchy as a whole would be, as the role of faith has become way too important for the Imperium. I suppose if the Space Wolves were to try and invade, say, Ophelia VII rather than just defending their own world it would trigger a different reaction as well. Or at least it should, but ... eh, it's the Space Wolves, so who knows.

Ironic. That would be a rather strange way of implementing "reason" and "enlightenment"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535205.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535205.page GMT Re:Vault of Origins

jgehunter wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
Lynata wrote:

Either way, armed conflict, if happening on a limited scope like that, isn't exactly a threat to the Imperium. Attempting to dismantle the Ecclesiarchy as a whole would be, as the role of faith has become way too important for the Imperium. I suppose if the Space Wolves were to try and invade, say, Ophelia VII rather than just defending their own world it would trigger a different reaction as well. Or at least it should, but ... eh, it's the Space Wolves, so who knows.

I wonder how the Ecclesiarchy would react when the old man wakes up and goes medieval on their asses. Or Ophelia VII goes the way of Monarchia, with an entire legion with the Emperor on the front accompanied by a Primarch burning everthing to ashes just to make a point. Imagine, their own 'god' telling them he's not a god, and together with a person who's supposed to be saint reducing everything their faith and livelihood stood for to ash and cinders. Just to put salt in the wound, the Emperor then FORCES them to kneel on the ashes and makes them renounce their faith and accept, well, reason, truth, and enlightenment. That would be something to see.

Ironic. That would be a rather strange way of implementing "reason" and "enlightenment"

They're zealots. The fire of their faith means talking to them is as productive as talking to a rock. Therefore, fight fire with fire and shock them into disbelief, then make your point by showing off your psychic might and make them kneel and deny their faith and accept truth and enlightenment. That's only for the Sisters...everyone else in the Ecclesiarchy will die or get mind-scrubbed. The Inquisition will be placed under Imperial governance. The legions will be reconstituted, and so on...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535238.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535238.page GMT Re:Vault of Origins GW will expand the timeline that much, at least during my lifetime.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535254.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535254.page GMT Re:Vault of Origins

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Maybe he realises the good that it has done for the Imperium, think if there wasn't any one singular thing for the masses to believe in, Would they still be united after all this time?

I don't know, he would have to wipe out an awful lot of people and there would be an awful lot of resistance to this. Would he risk another war on the scale of the Heresy? If he does come back from Death, isn't he just going to be confirming that he is a God, you know, the whole resurrection thing happened before apparently.

Edit: Spellinz]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535263.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535263.page GMT Re:Vault of Origins

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:

Maybe he realises the good that it has done for the Imperium, think if there wasn't any one singular thing for the masses to believe in, Would they still be united after all this time?

Nope. He hates religion. The only reason he allows them to worship him is because he's not around. But when he's back...DIE, YOU IGNORANT CLERICS, DIE! After all, he can personally reinforce the idea that he's just Human. Somehow, I feel a great deal of attraction to the idea of burning down the entire Imperial Church. And besides, the only good the Ecclesiarchy's ever done is to keep the masses together, no progress has been made at all in ten thousand years, all attempts at creating something new being shot down even before it has a chance to work.

I don't know, he would have to wipe out an awful lot of people and their would be an awful lot of resistance to this. Would he risk another war on the scale of the Heresy? If he does come back from Death, isn't he just going to be confirming that he is a god, you know, the whole Resurrection thing happened before apparently.

"I'm a psyker, and the greatest one of all. I can do things you cannot. Now reconstitute the legions and get Draigo in here because I want to shoot something."

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535276.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535276.page GMT Re:Vault of Origins

Tadashi wrote:I wonder how the Ecclesiarchy would react when the old man wakes up and goes medieval on their asses.

About the same way as if "Jesus" would appear and launch an assault on Vatican City and the Pope. They would likely label Him a fake and denounce Him as a mockery sent by Chaos. If He truly behaves as you suggested, it would only reinforce the accusation.

Most adherents of the faith would very likely agree with this assessment, not seeing how on Holy Terra their God-Emperor could not want them to worship Him, after all the sacrifices they made. Some very few might accept the truth, but simply resort to pragmatic support for the resistance in order to preserve the Imperium. You don't just abolish a religion with this much influence over everybody's live overnight. This sort of stuff took centuries on Earth, and for the IoM it'd take millennia (due to the sheer distance between worlds).

Pilau Rice wrote:Was that during the Reign of Blood though? I guess an Eccelsiarchal 'Sorry for attacking your homeworld, we weren't quite ourselves' happened.

No, that was in 886.M41:

Spoiler:

Part of why I think the 6E Allies chart is gak. As if the Sisters would forget this so easily. And that's aside from the SW generally qualifying as a bunch of rebellious mutant heretics in the first place.

During the Age of Apostasy, Fenris was attacked by the Segmentum Pacificus Navy and a few million Guardsmen under orders of the Apostate Cardinal Bucharis. But hey, it's the Space Wolves, so the entire force, fighting on and above Fenris for over a year, has of course no chance against them. Nevermind that not even one Space Marine warship is supposed to be a match for a Navy vessel of the same category.

Pilau Rice wrote:I don't know, he would have to wipe out an awful lot of people and there would be an awful lot of resistance to this. Would he risk another war on the scale of the Heresy? If he does come back from Death, isn't he just going to be confirming that he is a God, you know, the whole resurrection thing happened before apparently.

Agreed. The Emperor is no idiot, and He knows a suitable tool when He sees it, just like with His Space Marine project. He might try to abolish religion once the Imperium is stable again and secured against outside aggression. Then He might begin to implement reforms. Slowly and carefully. Probably by first shifting the meaning of "divinity" away from the man to the cause.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535291.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535291.page GMT Re:Vault of Origins

Lynata wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Was that during the Reign of Blood though? I guess an Eccelsiarchal 'Sorry for attacking your homeworld, we weren't quite ourselves' happened.

No, that was in 886.M41:

Spoiler:

Ahhhh, that assault on Fenris

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535302.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535302.page GMT Re:Vault of Origins

Lynata wrote:Agreed. The Emperor is no idiot, and He knows a suitable tool when He sees it, just like with His Space Marine project. He might try to abolish religion once the Imperium is stable again and secured against outside aggression. Then He might begin to implement reforms. Slowly and carefully. Probably by first shifting the meaning of "divinity" away from the man to the cause.

How does that work exactly? If he tolerates it, won't it just strengthen it in the long run? And I'm pretty sure the Imperium won't last for much longer unless some real progress is made and done fast.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535316.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535316.page GMT Re:Vault of Origins

Tadashi wrote:

Lynata wrote:Agreed. The Emperor is no idiot, and He knows a suitable tool when He sees it, just like with His Space Marine project. He might try to abolish religion once the Imperium is stable again and secured against outside aggression. Then He might begin to implement reforms. Slowly and carefully. Probably by first shifting the meaning of "divinity" away from the man to the cause.

I wouldn't say so, he could ween the people off of it, he's going to outlive every body, he has forever to do it.

Faith is the one thing holding the Imperium together.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535333.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535333.page GMT Re:Vault of Origins

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
Lynata wrote:Agreed. The Emperor is no idiot, and He knows a suitable tool when He sees it, just like with His Space Marine project. He might try to abolish religion once the Imperium is stable again and secured against outside aggression. Then He might begin to implement reforms. Slowly and carefully. Probably by first shifting the meaning of "divinity" away from the man to the cause.

How does that work exactly? If he tolerates it, won't it just strengthen it in the long run? And I'm pretty sure the Imperium won't last for much longer unless some real progress is made and done fast.

I wouldn't say so, he could ween the people off of it, he's going to outlive every body, he has forever to do it.

Faith is the one thing holding the Imperium together.

That might work...but does he have the time? The Ecclesiarchy's mind set is completely opposed to any progress of any kind, and I doubt the Imperium can last without drastic changes for much longer.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535342.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535342.page GMT Re:Vault of Origins

Tadashi wrote:How does that work exactly? If he tolerates it, won't it just strengthen it in the long run? And I'm pretty sure the Imperium won't last for much longer unless some real progress is made and done fast.

Well, what sort of progress do you hope to achieve with instant abolishment of religion? I'm not a fan of religion in real life, but for 40k, it seems way too ingrained and too important for 99.999% of the Imperial population than to just throw it away overnight. All you'd accomplish would be another civil war.

... *looks at avatar* ... waaaaiiit a second...

Anyways, as for tolerance strengthening it - I don't think this has to be the case, necessarily. It cannot become much stronger than it already is in the first place, as people grow up with the Emperor being a god constituting a "known fact". Also, by embracing the faith, this gives the Emperor the ability to steer and manipulate it for His own motives, including the possibility of weakening its hold on Mankind. With a soft touch, and over the course of millennia. In a theoretical M45, if the Imperium still exists, what people regard as "holy" might be no different than what the supposedly secular Space Marines already do.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535344.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535344.page GMT Vault of Origins http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535360.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535360.page GMT Vault of Origins
Their savior, back from the dead and walking once more amongst them, fighting again with righteous blade, proof that they were right to worship him.

They would fight stronger and harder than before if you ask me. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535393.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4535393.page GMT Vault of Origins

Pilau Rice wrote:if the Emperor returns, think of the affect it would have on the Church?

Their savior, back from the dead and walking once more amongst them, fighting again with righteous blade, proof that they were right to worship him.

They would fight stronger and harder than before if you ask me.

Untill he systematically starts to take apart there church and one by one execute or "disapear" the people who disagree with his idea of the imperium, i think he would allow the Ecclesiarchy to exist for a few centuries slowly taking the power away from them and reintroducing science as the best alternative (i.E imperial truth), untill such a time as they had no power and then just offed them, remember this is what he did on earth during the unification wars... destoyed or buried all religeon.

The big E was not a good guy by any means.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4537978.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4537978.page GMT Vault of Origins

Formosa wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:if the Emperor returns, think of the affect it would have on the Church?

Their savior, back from the dead and walking once more amongst them, fighting again with righteous blade, proof that they were right to worship him.

They would fight stronger and harder than before if you ask me.

So...eventually we still get to burn Ophelia VII to the ground? And in the mean time we can amuse ourselves potting the odd priest here and there and saying they had 'accidents'? I can do that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4537998.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4537998.page GMT Vault of Origins

Formosa wrote:The big E was not a good guy by any means.

He wasn't stupid either, though. If He can reform the Imperial faith in a way that it refers to the cause instead of the man, it could be a powerful tool to instill a sense of purpose and coherence. Basically, He'd make everyone slowly adopt the mindset the Space Marines have preserved for so long. By this time, the Imperial faith would merely resemble an extreme sense of nationalism/patriotism with some healthy xenophobia. The lines between devotion to a religion and devotion to a nation are blurred, and it all falls under "belief".]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4538039.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4538039.page GMT Vault of Origins

Lynata wrote:

Formosa wrote:The big E was not a good guy by any means.

No burning of priests? Booo...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4538047.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4538047.page GMT Vault of Origins

Formosa wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:if the Emperor returns, think of the affect it would have on the Church?

Their savior, back from the dead and walking once more amongst them, fighting again with righteous blade, proof that they were right to worship him.

They would fight stronger and harder than before if you ask me.

No, and I said as much earlier in the thread, my point was in answer to Tadashis previous post.

The Emperor is a bad guy, sure. But he is a pragmatist, he knows how to use the tools he has available to him at that given time. He has an infinite amount of time to end the church slowly and change it to what ever he wants, from the shadows, like he has always done.

Lynata wrote:
Formosa wrote:The big E was not a good guy by any means.
He wasn't stupid either, though. If He can reform the Imperial faith in a way that it refers to the cause instead of the man, it could be a powerful tool to instill a sense of purpose and coherence. Basically, He'd make everyone slowly adopt the mindset the Space Marines have preserved for so long. By this time, the Imperial faith would merely resemble an extreme sense of nationalism/patriotism with some healthy xenophobia. The lines between devotion to a religion and devotion to a nation are blurred, and it all falls under "belief".

Right, if he went to stop it straight away he is going to fracture the already delicate Imperium and start another Heresy which if started by it's own creator, it wouldn't survive. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4539074.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/462590/4539074.page GMT