Latest posts for the thread "Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?"

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

kenshin620 — GMT

With all the changes to assaults, it seems that wyches get some of the shortest ends of the sticks. Overwatch especially can easily put down a few since they only have a pitiful save of +6 normally.

So how about for overwatch shooting only, that wyches should be able to utilize their dodge save?

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

chrisrawr — GMT

this is the direction I'm going for WARGAME, so I can't help but endorse it here. Of course, I'm using Evasion as a modifier instead of an invuln, but w/e.

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

gaovinni — GMT

In my opinnion overwatch hitting on a 6 is enough to balance it out. Yes the wyches may take a casualty or two but they lash out enough attacks when they get to the melee part that it doesn't really matter as the invulnerable save protects them quite well. At least that is what I can say from my own experience after trying out my wych heavy DE army in 6th.

Re:Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

DarknessEternal — GMT

Overwatch is painlesslly trivial in the grand scheme of assaults.

How many wyches have you actually lost to Overwatch? How many more wyches have you gotten into combat because of the new rules?

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

chrisrawr — GMT

I frequently lose 2-3 wyches off the front every time I assault even basic guardsmen, and worse against marines.

T3 6+ means every wound is going through.

Re:Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

DarknessEternal — GMT

You're either extremely unlucky or charging gigantic squads then.

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

chrisrawr — GMT

10 space marines
20 shots
3 hits
2 wounds
no saves.

You're either extremely bad at math, or have never played the game.

Re:Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

DarknessEternal — GMT

Why are you charging 10 marines with Wyches? They are incredibly outclassed by 10 marines.

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

Portugal Jones — GMT

chrisrawr wrote:You're either extremely bad at math, or have never played the game.

Says the guy who has apparently thrown wyches at undamaged marine squads.

Repeatedly.

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

chrisrawr — GMT

Protip: Same math against 50 points of IG, give or take a save.

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

DarknessEternal — GMT

chrisrawr wrote:Protip: Same math against 50 points of IG, give or take a save.

Except not. 10 guardsmen do ~<5/4 (Sergeants don't have lasguns) of a wound when charged by Wyches. 9 Wyches then completely obliterate 10 guardsmen.

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

gaovinni — GMT

One more thing that popped into mind is that it really depends on the size of your wych squad. It may hurt 5 wyches bad but if you lose 2 out of 10 wyches before the actual close combat that ain't really much in the end... unless one of the casualties was a hekatrix with an agonizer.

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

chrisrawr — GMT

Or unless it puts you out of assault range.

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

gaovinni — GMT

Fleet helps with that now.

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

chrisrawr — GMT

2" bump on average, better in difficult terrain. You're still losing 1-2 inches from those wyches dying.

Re:Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

DarknessEternal — GMT

Make smarter then, instead of inventing rules to help you be better.

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

chrisrawr — GMT

Would apply if rules and armies were all balanced, yes. Unfortunately they aren't by any measure.

Your comments would be a lot more constructive if they weren't ever so slightly missing both the point of PR and the context of the game.

We're not changing things because we are bad at the game, we're making the game better so that the outcome is more about player skill, and less about what codex or dice rolls are involved.

If a staple troops choice for your army is made almost worthless against nearly any other unit of equal points when both are played professionally, there is a problem with something in the game, and fixing it will make the game better. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing on the method, but denying that something needs to be changed in many cases is accepting a subpar game; If you have no problems with 40k, then that's more power to you, but the rest of us would like to play a better game.

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

Mahtamori — GMT

I'd actually argue that when a troop in this game is taken in preference to elite unit, there is something wrong with that troop. Then again I've got guardians and they've been pretty much in a worse position than wyches since third edition.
(isn't warriors supposed to be the staple choice?)

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

chrisrawr — GMT

>If a staple troops choice for your army is made almost worthless against nearly any other unit of equal points when both are played professionally, there is a problem with something in the game, and fixing it will make the game better.

Staple troops choice for Eldar: Rangers, Guardians.

Worthless against nearly any other unit of equal points? UNDOUBTEDLY.

Problem with something in the game? Yes.

Ergo, Fixing it will make it better? Yes.

Eldar are really in it this edition besides their allies choices. Even GW knows their current rules make them unsustainable - 2 editions behind is absurd!

I'm not arguing that Wyches are more in need of changes than anything else. I'm just stating that, yes, this is a change that would benefit them, and the game, as this is a thread about a change that would benefit them, and the game.

I also don't know anyone who takes Wyches over Incubi. Incubi are awesome. And Trueborn. Succubi and Heckatrix aren't used because they don't compare to the other elites choices, not because they're worse than wyches. This is also a problem with the FOC and inter-FOC balancing, more than it is with anything else.

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

DeffDred — GMT

chrisrawr wrote:We're not changing things because we are bad at the game, we're making the game better so that the outcome is more about player skill, and less about what codex or dice rolls are involved.

So if it's about player skill use skill. Don't make a rule for "what codex or dice rolls are involved".

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

chrisrawr — GMT

So... Don't make rules that affect a game of codecies and dice rolls, if I want to change something in a game of codecies in dice rolls?

...

Or how about you stop strawmanning and get the point - 40K has a lot of horrendous oversights when it comes to implementing the new rules. You can either say, "Well, GW should probably address the few units that are more detrimentally affected by overwatch fire than the rest," or you can say "GW obviously intended 10 guardsmen to be unassaultable outside of 5 inches by wyches and orks."

Re:Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

Baronyu — GMT

Even as a DE player, I'd say 4++ on overwatch is a bit too much, they'll, in a way, be tougher than those poster boys, since nothing can deny them their save, and anything not S6 or higher will mean they get another 5+ save after that.

I do agree, however, that wyches are 1 of those units that got hit quite hard by the changes in assault: our unit size is usually 7-10 due to having to be on transport, making us the same size as the poster boys assault squad, but we have none of their S4 attacks to hurt people with(do you know how hard it is to roll 5+? ). And then to top it off, when we get overwatched, any shot that causes a wound is only saveable if we have FNP(which mean the unit size has gotta be 9 or under), and that's again, a 5+, if you can roll 5+ more than 50% of the time, you're breaking maths.

Hmm... how about they rewrite our combat drugs instead? May be on the 1 drug, instead of the useless running, we get to use dodge in overwatch, but only if you roll that one on drug.

Re:Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

Exergy — GMT

DarknessEternal wrote:Overwatch is painlesslly trivial in the grand scheme of assaults.

How many wyches have you actually lost to Overwatch? How many more wyches have you gotten into combat because of the new rules?

considering they lost their fleet run move in the shooting phase not many.
You use to get 6+d6
Now you get 2d6 with the reroll but any overwatch kills put you further away.
Charging a 10 man squad you are going to lose 1-2. If they have a flamer, 2-4. That's pretty signifigant.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I dont think getting their 4++ against overwatch is nessisary. I think the answer is in the PGL(Phantasmal Grenade launcher, gives wyches defensive grenades, so you get stealth if you charge somethign close)

perhaps add onto dodge +1 or +2 cover save against overwatch. This way flamers will still kill them(as I think they should) but you get a slightly better chance against bolters and lasguns

Re:Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

Funk3140 — GMT

I think it would be kinda hard to dodge a laser yes? or a lascannon? Those kinda things move at the speed of light. I dont think anyone on any amount of drugs moves that fast.

Re:Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

chrisrawr — GMT

Funk3140 wrote:I think it would be kinda hard to dodge a laser yes? or a lascannon? Those kinda things move at the speed of light. I dont think anyone on any amount of drugs moves that fast.

They would react to the aim of the person, not to the incoming laser. An Eldar mind, on powerful psychoactives and stimulants, trained in the wych arenas... She could watch every hair on your finger as you you pull the trigger in slow motion from a football field away. And in the two steps she's taken while you're pulling it, she's on you.

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

ObliviousBlueCaboose — GMT

chrisrawr wrote:Protip: Same math against 50 points of IG, give or take a save.

You will lose 1.3194[repeat] (0.8793[repeat] if they rolled a 6 for combat drugs) Wyches from overwatch.
You have 4-5 left, they will then kill 2.6[repeat]- 3.3[repeat] guardsmen, not counting the other combat drugs results.
You will lose 1.125 (0.75FNP) wyches in combat. You win combat. The Guardsmen will have a -2 to leadership. So need 6's He will have a 42% chance to make it. If he fails you need to roll a 3+ to sweep.

Result, No wyches do not need a Dodge save for Over watch.

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

Lotet — GMT

can you shoot overwatch when you're pinned or have gone to ground?

Re:Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

Almarine — GMT

I'm inclined to say suck it up, OP.

Wyches have received an immense buff with haywire grenades now hitting anything on 3+ and glancing hits taking HP. They're now more reliable than warriors in both anti armor and personnel roles. Not to mention they're fleet, which in itself more than makes up for the odd wych you might lose to overwatch every third game.

If you're really super concerned about this, just give them a homonculus.

Re:Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

Exergy — GMT

Almarine wrote:
Wyches have received an immense buff with haywire grenades now hitting anything on 3+ and glancing hits taking HP. They're now more reliable than warriors in both anti armor and personnel roles. Not to mention they're fleet, which in itself more than makes up for the odd wych you might lose to overwatch every third game.
If you're really super concerned about this, just give them a homonculus.

The have always had fleet, which has always helped them get into assault. Now it is less effective.
They have always had the homoculus, and now FNP is 5+ not 4+

now they are great against vehicles but rather bad against everything else. Warriors are also rather bad against everything. DE troop choices just keep getting the shaft.

Re:Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

DarknessEternal — GMT

Exergy wrote:Warriors are also rather bad against everything.

Wait, what?

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

davou — GMT

Wytches aren't supposed to do well against shooting, just use them clever (make multi assaults with units that can hit/run, be careful to not assault into Snap fire that can get past your FNP etc).

This isn't 'lets make them more balanced' this is 'my unit isn't the be all end all anymore so they need a rewrite'. The game has shifted away from mele slightly, take a look at jet-bikes if you wanna maintain power rather than trying to hold onto meta from 5th.

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

chrisrawr — GMT

DE Jetbikes have been one of their best units since the 5e codex came out. Wyches have never been the end-all be-all; they have a specific, dedicated role as tarpitters of 'bigger' units, and they're unable to perform it due to snapfire.

Their invulnerable save is fluffed in such a way that having it apply to snapfire shouldn't be too much of a stretch, and the bonus that this brings shouldn't be worth more than 2 points per model extra.

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

Almarine — GMT

chrisrawr wrote:DE Jetbikes have been one of their best units since the 5e codex came out. Wyches have never been the end-all be-all; they have a specific, dedicated role as tarpitters of 'bigger' units, and they're unable to perform it due to snapfire.

Their invulnerable save is fluffed in such a way that having it apply to snapfire shouldn't be too much of a stretch, and the bonus that this brings shouldn't be worth more than 2 points per model extra.

They're unable to tarpit bigger units because of overwatch. Right. I wish that were true as it doesn't realistically make sense for a couple of bdsm clowns to tie up "bigger" units in the first place.

Realism isn't the chief motivating factor behind unit profiles though, and neither is fluff. How much of a stretch it would be "fluffwise" doesn't really enter into it as 4++ would let them pretty much disregard the risk of failing an assault to overwatch wounds. Must agree with davou that it sounds like you just want wyches to be easier to use.

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

Sephyr — GMT

Lotet wrote:can you shoot overwatch when you're pinned or have gone to ground?

Yes and yes. There is almost no way to deny overwatch, which is why all those saying "meh, just play it SMARTER" have no point.

Thinning out units with shooting before charging? Why not just keep shooting instead, then? It takes a LOT of thinning for the average wych squad to make it into combat with respectable strength left.

Multi-charging will still have the enemy focusing on the unit he can damage more easily (pretty much always wyches), and given the nerf to transports it's easy for others to make your multi-assault arrive piecemeal.

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

Mandor — GMT

davou wrote:Wytches aren't supposed to do well against shooting, just use them clever (make multi assaults with units that can hit/run, be careful to not assault into Snap fire that can get past your FNP etc).

This isn't 'lets make them more balanced' this is 'my unit isn't the be all end all anymore so they need a rewrite'. The game has shifted away from mele slightly, take a look at jet-bikes if you wanna maintain power rather than trying to hold onto meta from 5th.

This. Only replace "shifted away from melee slightly" to "shifted away from melee entirely" where DE are concerned. Dark Eldar assault is dead in this edition, because you have to submit either your transport or your assault units to shooting now. And even though this affects anything in power armour only slightly, it totally kills DE assault, because DE aren't build to withstand fire. Giving Wyches a 4++ against Overwatch doesn't fix this. It's easier to forgo DE assault entirely and focus on the areas in which DE got better: mass skimmer transports and shooting.

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

chrisrawr — GMT

lol@almarine BDSM clowns; I don't even play DE outside of Vassal and I know better than that. Wyches are born and raised in environments that make deathworlds look like planetary 5-star cruise ships.

Re:Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

gaovinni — GMT

Baronyu wrote: Even as a DE player, I'd say 4++ on overwatch is a bit too much, they'll, in a way, be tougher than those poster boys, since nothing can deny them their save, and anything not S6 or higher will mean they get another 5+ save after that.

I do agree, however, that wyches are 1 of those units that got hit quite hard by the changes in assault: our unit size is usually 7-10 due to having to be on transport, making us the same size as the poster boys assault squad, but we have none of their S4 attacks to hurt people with(do you know how hard it is to roll 5+? ). And then to top it off, when we get overwatched, any shot that causes a wound is only saveable if we have FNP(which mean the unit size has gotta be 9 or under), and that's again, a 5+, if you can roll 5+ more than 50% of the time, you're breaking maths.

Hmm... how about they rewrite our combat drugs instead? May be on the 1 drug, instead of the useless running, we get to use dodge in overwatch, but only if you roll that one on drug.

I really don't think the drugs should be able to allow dodge save in overwatch as all the units that have (or can have) combat drugs don't have a dodge save. Besides, I overwatch has not been that big concern to my wyches so far and I run them in squads of 5.

Almarine wrote:I'm inclined to say suck it up, OP.

Wyches have received an immense buff with haywire grenades now hitting anything on 3+ and glancing hits taking HP. They're now more reliable than warriors in both anti armor and personnel roles. Not to mention they're fleet, which in itself more than makes up for the odd wych you might lose to overwatch every third game.

If you're really super concerned about this, just give them a homonculus.

I love my wyches with those haywire grenades. My friends don't...

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

Hollowman — GMT

Almarine wrote:
They're unable to tarpit bigger units because of overwatch. Right. I wish that were true as it doesn't realistically make sense for a couple of bdsm clowns to tie up "bigger" units in the first place.

Of course it makes sense. When there are a bunch of BDSM clowns doing Olympic gymnast routines throughout your unit, while also cutting off heads, you tend to get a bit distracted.

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

gaovinni — GMT

Hollowman wrote:
Almarine wrote:
They're unable to tarpit bigger units because of overwatch. Right. I wish that were true as it doesn't realistically make sense for a couple of bdsm clowns to tie up "bigger" units in the first place.

Of course it makes sense. When there are a bunch of BDSM clowns doing Olympic gymnast routines throughout your unit, while also cutting off heads, you tend to get a bit distracted.

Please do not make laugh that hard. It hurts. The image in my head... I can't get it out!

Can I put this in my sig?

Re:Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

Mushkilla — GMT

Simple solution involving a wych squad and another screening squad.

For example:

I have a squad of 10 wyches and a squad of 5 wyches, both in transports. I disembark and move them in such a way that the squad of 5 is screening the squad of 10 from the unit they wish to assault. I can now shoot with both squads if I wish (although the enemy will get some cover saves). After shooting the squad of 10 charges through the gaps in the squad of 5. Overwatch is resolved before the unit is moved, as there is a intervening unit between the firer and the target, the charging squad of 10 wyches gets a 5+ cover save (4+ with the cheap phantasm grenade launcher the wyches have access to). Now that the target is locked in combat charge the remain squad of 5 wyches into the combat (who won't get overwatched, as the unit is has already fired overwatch).

Done, 4+ cover save against over watch. With DE mobility this isn't even hard to pull off.

The thing that has had the biggest effect on wyches in my opinion is S4 hits when a vehicle explodes, as per usual this is a non issue for marines and a real pain for everyone else.

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

Hollowman — GMT

gaovinni wrote:
Hollowman wrote:

Of course it makes sense. When there are a bunch of BDSM clowns doing Olympic gymnast routines throughout your unit, while also cutting off heads, you tend to get a bit distracted.

Please do not make laugh that hard. It hurts. The image in my head... I can't get it out!

Can I put this in my sig?

Feel free!

Re:Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

Lotet — GMT

Mushkilla wrote:Simple solution involving a wych squad and another screening squad.

For example:

I have a squad of 10 wyches and a squad of 5 wyches, both in transports. I disembark and move them in such a way that the squad of 5 is screening the squad of 10 from the unit they wish to assault. I can now shoot with both squads if I wish (although the enemy will get some cover saves). After shooting the squad of 10 charges through the gaps in the squad of 5. Overwatch is resolved before the unit is moved, as there is a intervening unit between the firer and the target, the charging squad of 10 wyches gets a 5+ cover save (4+ with the cheap phantasm grenade launcher the wyches have access to). Now that the target is locked in combat charge the remain squad of 5 wyches into the combat (who won't get overwatched, as the unit is has already fired overwatch).

Done, 4+ cover save against over watch. With DE mobility this isn't even hard to pull off.

The thing that has had the biggest effect on wyches in my opinion is S4 hits when a vehicle explodes, as per usual this is a non issue for marines and a real pain for everyone else.

I was going to suggest throwing Grotesques in a Raider at the enemy first but your idea is much better and clearly more sensible.

Re:Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

Baronyu — GMT

Mushkilla wrote:Simple solution involving a wych squad and another screening squad.

For example:

I have a squad of 10 wyches and a squad of 5 wyches, both in transports. I disembark and move them in such a way that the squad of 5 is screening the squad of 10 from the unit they wish to assault. I can now shoot with both squads if I wish (although the enemy will get some cover saves). After shooting the squad of 10 charges through the gaps in the squad of 5. Overwatch is resolved before the unit is moved, as there is a intervening unit between the firer and the target, the charging squad of 10 wyches gets a 5+ cover save (4+ with the cheap phantasm grenade launcher the wyches have access to). Now that the target is locked in combat charge the remain squad of 5 wyches into the combat (who won't get overwatched, as the unit is has already fired overwatch).

Done, 4+ cover save against over watch. With DE mobility this isn't even hard to pull off.

The thing that has had the biggest effect on wyches in my opinion is S4 hits when a vehicle explodes, as per usual this is a non issue for marines and a real pain for everyone else.

Grats, now you've just taken up 2 slots of your 6 troop slots to deal with 1 enemy unit, still gonna struggle at hurting them with S3(good luck with that 1/6 re-roll/S+1/pain token drugs). And gonna struggle hurting everything else because you used up 2 slots for one singular purpose, also the trick will work once per battle.

If anything, I actually prefer what I read elsewhere: Haemy + wyches, detach haemy from the unit, charge 1st, they either overwatch the haemy or risk him getting into assault and deny their overwatch on wyches entirely, either way, the overwatch risk on wyches is gone. No need to take an additional unit to defend a rather weak troop choice, and we usually run haemy with wyches to provide them with FNP or possibly FC(pain token drug) anyway.

@gaovinni

Radioactive spider juice drug, gives you spider sense. 1/6 of a chance to get something that is only useful against BS1 overwatch is hardly overpowered, I'd say.

P.S. I'm in the camp that overwatch doesn't hurt that bad, unless it's tesla of necrons or flamers... But still, I wouldn't argue that a single shot getting through that BS1 overwatch will hurt us more than it does for tougher units.

Re:Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

gpfunk — GMT

I would suggest just using venom/raider spam. We all have gimped units in our codex. Looks like wyches got gimped this time. Switch to warriors and just torrent of fire everything to death. Even with the rules weakening transports, it's still a valid way to run the DE.

That said, if you really want to house rule a dodge save for Wyches against overwatch then go ahead. Not like anyone can stop you. Just don't complain at a tournament when they don't give you that same courtesy.

Re:Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

DarknessEternal — GMT

Baronyu wrote:
Grats, now you've just taken up 2 slots of your 6 troop slots to deal with 1 enemy unit, still gonna struggle at hurting them with S3(good luck with that 1/6 re-roll/S+1/pain token drugs). And gonna struggle hurting everything else because you used up 2 slots for one singular purpose, also the trick will work once per battle.

This is how Eldar, both Dark and Light, actually are intended to function.

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

Unit1126PLL — GMT

Indeed, it seems the OP wishes he were Marines.

IMHO the Eldar and Dark Eldar armies are actually designed by the game designers to utilize superior mobility and force concentration to destroy the enemy army with overwhelming force in tiny segments.

They were not designed to go one-on-one, head to head, mano-a-mano with a Space Marine army; to reiterate: they're supposed to carve it apart piecemeal with overwhelming force contentration.

15 wytches vs 10 Marines (2 slots versus 1) is in fact LESS force concentration than I would have expected to have been necessary.

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

Lokas — GMT

Unit1126PLL wrote:Indeed, it seems the OP wishes he were Marines.

IMHO the Eldar and Dark Eldar armies are actually designed by the game designers to utilize superior mobility and force concentration to destroy the enemy army with overwhelming force in tiny segments.

They were not designed to go one-on-one, head to head, mano-a-mano with a Space Marine army; to reiterate: they're supposed to carve it apart piecemeal with overwhelming force contentration.

15 wytches vs 10 Marines (2 slots versus 1) is in fact LESS force concentration than I would have expected to have been necessary.

Yeah guys! The game is supposed to favor marines!

Jeez, don't you know anything?

Re:Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

blood lance — GMT

I'd say what others have said. Suck it up. Plenty of other assault units in the game have to suffer from overwatch in the same way as wyches, and you think wyches are the exception, because they're high?
Nononono. Wych's would survive most overwatches easily with enough models to take you down wholesale.

QQ I probably look stupid, but whats Vassal?

Also, I'd say Lokas has got a point there in saying that

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

Baronyu — GMT

@DarknessEternal

I wasn't saying that's not how DE is meant to be played, I play DE as you can tell, I was saying that there are better options out there than to burn over 105 points and a slot to escort one not-so-great unit. Hell, bump the cost up ever so slightly, and you could bring in a raider full of warriors to just soften the target up for the wyches, and those warriors will have a role after the wyches got into combat as well.

@Unit1126PLL

I think your marine-defensive goggles are on, try taking them off. No one is trying to steal your poster boy status.

I don't think any DE players would think that our wyches are meant to be able to take on a full-sized marine squad, we didn't call them the tarpit unit just because we get turned on by imagining dark eldar ladies wrestling in tar(hey, whatever floats one's boat!), we've accepted that their killing ability isn't stellar, but they still provided a purpose for their points(They cost more than an unit of warriors, but not as useful). But given that in 6th ed...

-We no longer get our 12" + 2" + D6" + 6" assault, and we just have the same assault distance as everyone... Oh wait, we got fleet! Which many mathammer experts from the Grimdark university have confirmed that will, on average, give fleet units a 2" advantage over non-fleet unit. "High mobility", huh?

-As have been said many times over, overwatch hurt wyches/Eldar units(?) more than other armies because they don't get their saves. One or two shots that go through overwatch are easily negated for the poster boys, but for the 5+/6+ DE/Eldar? We'd just have to take it. Given that we field equal/less than the size of an average marine squad, and the fact that we already weren't that amazing in CC, I'd say we deserved the right to cry a little. Oh, do I need to say that ATSKNF/fearless also prevent sweeping advance? So much for our high initiative helping us win with sweeping advance last edition!

But, I must apologise, as I agreed with Lokas wholeheartedly!

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

chrisrawr — GMT

Vassal is a program (found here http://vassal40k.wordpress.com/, http://www.vassalengine.org/) that allows you to play 40K battles online with other people.

Plenty of other assault units in the game like who? Orks are half the cost, and T4. Space Marines cost more, but are T4 and 3+ armour. Tyranids have been gimped since 5e and that's a separate issue. Same to Eldar's Howling Banshees (who are arguably even more gimped by AP3 than they were by overwatch).

Overwatch was a rule designed around Space Marines and Imperial Guard. It may be convenient or hindering for other factions, but it doesn't matter because they are not contributing as much to the GW fund, so don't get as many nice things.

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

DarknessEternal — GMT

chrisrawr wrote:
Overwatch was a rule designed around Space Marines and Imperial Guard.

How often do you have to resculpt your tinfoil hat?

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

gaovinni — GMT

DarknessEternal wrote:
chrisrawr wrote:
Overwatch was a rule designed around Space Marines and Imperial Guard.

How often do you have to resculpt your tinfoil hat?

Maybe he has a collection of them.

Re:Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

Mushkilla — GMT

Baronyu wrote:
Grats, now you've just taken up 2 slots of your 6 troop slots to deal with 1 enemy unit, still gonna struggle at hurting them with S3(good luck with that 1/6 re-roll/S+1/pain token drugs). And gonna struggle hurting everything else because you used up 2 slots for one singular purpose, also the trick will work once per battle.

I don't see a problem with overwhelming a single point on the enemy line. As for wyches being cost effective that is another topic all together. The question was concerning wyches and overwatch. My example was just a way to illustrate how you can screen units before they charge. You could use this with any assault unit, you could even screen with rapid firing kabalites if you like.

Last time I checked wyches were a tar-pit unit. The whole problem with overwatch is you don't get enough of them into combat for them to do their job effectively. This is one of the many possible solutions.

Fleet is good, what hurt is the changes to transports, wyches threat range without a transports in 5th 6+3.5+6 = 15.5". Wyches threat range without a transport in 6th 6+9 = 15 (you have a 57% chance of making a 9" charge with fleet). The only difference is now you can shoot and throw a grenade, and people can overwatch you. Fleet in and of itself has not really changed. Every assault unit that doesn't have fleet now has an unreliable charge (charging through difficult terrain with fleet is better then a normal charge without fleet). Simply put, if an assault unit doesn't have fleet this edition its not going to be reliable.

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

Bloodhorror — GMT

Hormagaunt are easy to take down due to overwatch as well.

Just stop complaining, and kill stuff harder and faster !

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

chrisrawr — GMT

Bloodhorror wrote:Hormagaunt are easy to take down due to overwatch as well.

Just stop complaining, and kill stuff harder and faster !

Hormagants are also overcosted for what they give you, and also a bad comparison because they cost half as much and are fearless most of the time.

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

Bloodhorror — GMT

Still same toughness and wounds and save.

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

Akroma06 — GMT

But hormagaunts can be taken in bulk...can't really do that with DE now can you? Another problem is that no DE really aren't that much more mobile than other armies anymore. Jetbikes are probably the one exception there. I still can't move 12" and get out 2" + 1" for base size can I? No I have to move 6" and then disembark/move 6" just like everyone else. And don't even get me started on what a joke fleet has become. Honestly the OPs idea sounds fine to me. After all I can see where you are aiming and with their supernatural reflexes get out of the way.

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

Bloodhorror — GMT

I thought you could move 12" get out and charge?

Thats what Open topped being an assualt Vechicle meant right?

And I like fleet. I think its become better and SOOOO much more useful !

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

DarknessEternal — GMT

Akroma06 wrote: Honestly the OPs idea sounds fine to me. After all I can see where you are aiming and with their supernatural reflexes get out of the way.

So how much are you willing to pay for this upgrade? "Free" is not enough.

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

chrisrawr — GMT

2 points per model is my suggestion - at 12 points per model, theyre twice as survivable as hormagants against overwatch (as I'd noted above) "Their invulnerable save is fluffed in such a way that having it apply to snapfire shouldn't be too much of a stretch, and the bonus that this brings shouldn't be worth more than 2 points per model extra. "

Making it hurt less for Wyches, Dodge Save avaliable for Overwatch?

Akroma06 — GMT

DarknessEternal wrote:
Akroma06 wrote: Honestly the OPs idea sounds fine to me. After all I can see where you are aiming and with their supernatural reflexes get out of the way.

So how much are you willing to pay for this upgrade? "Free" is not enough.

What upgrade? You mean dodge where a guys gun is pointing? Some PEOPLE can do that since it is harder for them to follow you with their arm then it is for you to move...not saying its easy but possible. Then you have to take into account that DE, especially wyches, are very agile. Much more so than a human so the idea of being able to dodge a shot like that fits. Most people think about dodging the bullet or the las round and when they think of gun fire of some sniper or mounted machine gunner shooting at significant range. As for cost I pay twice as much than a guardsmen for someone with a pistol (no rifle) a worse save (yeah worse) and a boosted Int. A single wych with a wych weapon costs more than a marine, but...A MARINE, but I have less toughness, strength, and armor save...even my invul isn't as good as your armor. Don't get me started on the cost of a hekatrix w/ agoniser and haywires...shoot some VEHICLES cost less. Then I can't spam them due to squad limits and the only way I can run more than 9 or 10 is to either walk across the board or use a portal both of which see them die very quickly and not charge.