<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock?"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/31.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock?
1. Since Cadian surface is mostly conquered, where are the Cadian Shock Imperial Guards going to come from?

2. Situation seems a little unfair for Abbadon... I mean, he and a ton of Chaos troops are trapped on the surface, weathering bombardments everyday. Do I see a potential table-turning situation for Abbadon in the future? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4643956.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4643956.page GMT Re:Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock? Apocalypse rulebook, and has assaulted the planet of Thesus Reach and possibly destroying the planet with the Planet Killer, with war set to engulf the rest of that sector. Thesus sector was NOT one of the warzones fought in the EoT campaign breakout hence the logical conclusion is that the Thesus sector is post EoT and he is beyond the immediate vicinity of the Cadian Gate.

As for your first question, the Cadians are one of the most numerous and emulated IG forces out there and it is easily believable that there are colony worlds founded by former Cadian regiments. Even if all of Cadia were to be lost, it would be easy enough to imagine "New Cadia" being set up to replace it, along with some sort of longing for revenge and reconquest of the original homeworld. The equipment of the Cadians is also widely emulated by other worlds so the figures could be used anyway. The 4th edition IG Codex gave some examples of such regiments.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4643977.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4643977.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock? IoM wouldn't let Cadia fall anyway because of it's proximity to the Eye and it's strategic importance.


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^ The IoM wouldn't let Cadia fall anyway because of it's proximity to the Eye and it's strategic importance.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4643999.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4643999.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock?
Diesel Stradin wrote:
1. Since Cadian surface is mostly conquered, where are the Cadian Shock Imperial Guards going to come from?


Kind of silly, but, the theory would be, I guess explanations would include

1-the other worlds idea suggested above

2-sending generations to die seems unsustainable-- if they can do that normally, seems likely they have the means to sustain production/population when their planet is being invaded

3-the "present" 40k is essentially a static point in time: maybe cadia is, in fact, doomed when they run out of soldiers, but we'll never get there/]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4644009.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4644009.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4644011.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4644011.page GMT Re:Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock?
The final Eye of Terror results and the background short story in that same WD showed the HQ Kasr of Kasr Partox (not to be confused with the fortress planet of the same name in the same system), was destroyed, and Creed having to pull a Dunkirk like maneuver/evacuation to Kasr Gallan. These details are also confirmed by the Black Library background book titled 13th Black Crusade. The Black Library book Cadian Blood has a protagonist that was famous for his actions in one particular battle, but who felt guilty as the Cadians still ultimately lost that battle and that Kasr.

For a summary and reposting of the results see:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/392010.page]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4644032.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4644032.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4644063.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4644063.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock? If chaos push forward then they will make some inroads into resupplying. Despite unreliable supply lines.

Just ask yourself, how much consideration do you think Abaddon will give to resupplying mutant and heretic canon fodder. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4644867.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4644867.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock? CSM would Squander Resources in wasteing them , the Marines themselfs can't possibley hope to hold the entire World of Cadia , they would be outnumbred 20-1 but also they would be forced to fall back because of it and the Crusade would fail incredabley easily , If the Crusade stays it current course then Chaos will simpily run out of troops ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4644878.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4644878.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock? Their is a casual disregard for mutant life.

Although imperium held cadia sector, chaos held cadia planet and system, they have a grip on the world.

Admittedly they will have to try a break out at some point, but if it comes to that, rest assured cadia would have been stripped and gutted and useless as a fortress world. Its more likely the imperium will have to dig them out before they totally lose the world as a strategic asset.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4644921.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4644921.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock? CSM as the Space Marines . If Cadia is Taken if it is pryed from the Cold Dead Hands of Ever Man , Women and Child on that planet . Cadia WIll not Fall as long as a Cadian Still Breathes . It is that Fanactism that will Defeat Chaos with some other goodies thrown in ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4644950.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4644950.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4645007.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4645007.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4645032.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4645032.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock?
Kasrkin229 wrote:Cadia was purely used as a Fortress world nothing more ( some Agri value )it would take time to rebuild but it could be done , Cadia is Renown for its Shock Troopers and PDF , They will Fight to the Death , They shelter almost as much Hate for the CSM as the Space Marines . If Cadia is Taken if it is pryed from the Cold Dead Hands of Ever Man , Women and Child on that planet . Cadia WIll not Fall as long as a Cadian Still Breathes . It is that Fanactism that will Defeat Chaos with some other goodies thrown in


Fanboy much? Doesn't matter how much the Cadians hate them; Chaos is still Chaos and Cadians are still guardsmen.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4645146.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4645146.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock?
TheCaptain wrote:
Doesn't matter how much the Cadians hate them; Chaos is still Chaos and Cadians are still Imperial guardsmen.


fixed.

You know, the game with the Imperial, ie human perspective..

We could also wait for the CSM codex, to tell us the latest version of it. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4645166.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4645166.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock?
1hadhq wrote:
TheCaptain wrote:
Doesn't matter how much the Cadians hate them; Chaos is still Chaos and Cadians are still Imperial guardsmen.


fixed.

You know, the game with the Imperial, ie human perspective..

We could also wait for the CSM codex, to tell us the latest version of it.


I'm sorry, what?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4645176.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4645176.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock? lol but Cadians are the best equip guardsmen , lasguns are better , Armor , Traning ect. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4645663.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4645663.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4645673.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4645673.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock?
TheCaptain wrote:
1hadhq wrote:
TheCaptain wrote:
Doesn't matter how much the Cadians hate them; Chaos is still Chaos and Cadians are still Imperial guardsmen.


fixed.

You know, the game with the Imperial, ie human perspective..

We could also wait for the CSM codex, to tell us the latest version of it.


I'm sorry, what?

The background seems to be skewed in favour of the Imperium at times. Think he was implying about their plot armour.

I'm not sure Cadians are the best as there are other regiments out there that come to mind as being pretty good as well, DKoK, Mordian Iron Guard, Armageddon Steel Legion, Praetorians. Each just seems to have their own main strength and for Cadia that seems to be zeal. Not to say they are lacking in other ways of course.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4645773.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4645773.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock?
TheCaptain wrote:Still guardsmen.


Well, Cadians are much better trained than other guardsmen. Some say they are equals to space marines. Just not in armor or personal strength. Chaos will never get Cadia. They are too well protected and too well armed.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4645775.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4645775.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock?
In space warfare, whoever has air superiority will win the fight regardless of what's happening on the ground. The Chaos forces can win as many battles on the ground as they want- they'll never be able to organize their troops into any real battlegroups because Imperium ships will just level them to paste with orbital bombardments. The Chaos forces will basically be forced to run around underground for the entirety of the war.

Abaddon was able to bypass Cadia with a fleet, but now that Imperial forces have space superiority around the Cadian Gate, that means no more fleet reinforcements for Abaddon.

The 13th Crusade did a number on the Imperium, but as long as they hold the Gate the fight's already lost for Abaddon. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4645860.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4645860.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock?
Diesel Stradin wrote:So by the end of the 13th Black Crusade, most of Cadian surface is controlled by Abbadon the Despoiler but the space is controlled by Imperial forces... so this raised two questions for me.

1. Since Cadian surface is mostly conquered, where are the Cadian Shock Imperial Guards going to come from?

2. Situation seems a little unfair for Abbadon... I mean, he and a ton of Chaos troops are trapped on the surface, weathering bombardments everyday. Do I see a potential table-turning situation for Abbadon in the future?

1. Existing regiments. Not every Cadian regiment could be redeployed, so even if the entire world was destroyed odds are some regiments would remain fighting. Even then Cadians are notable regiments and would likely be given colonization rights to some worlds they fight on and create a culture similar to Cadia. Beyond that, a lot of regiments copy the Cadians' equipment style.

2. Abbadon probably isn't on the surface. Knowing how Chaos works, the guys trapped on the surface are probably his rivals and they are probably meant to die. Also, Cadia falling for something would require that the timeline advance into 000.M42, since the current setting with Chaos surrounded is literally like 599999.M41, which GW won't do.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4645867.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4645867.page GMT Re:Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock? 40K games take place before the close of M41, otherwise knows as the "present" in 40K. that's why worldwide campaigns don't really matter, as they will never advance the storyline in a non-approved GW way.

I have even had moments during the old "world campaign" where I imagine GW artificially manipulating the scores in the way that fits "their universe" the best. So non-Imperials can never do anything but stalemate at best.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4646001.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4646001.page GMT Re:Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock?
AegisGrimm wrote:I have always been a part of the understanding that 90% of 40K games take place before the close of M41, otherwise knows as the "present" in 40K. that's why worldwide campaigns don't really matter, as they will never advance the storyline in a non-approved GW way.

I have even had moments during the old "world campaign" where I imagine GW artificially manipulating the scores in the way that fits "their universe" the best. So non-Imperials can never do anything but stalemate at best.


In the Grim Darkness of the Far Future, there is only 999 M41

Cadia has been exterminated of Human life before and it will be repopulated if Abbadon somehow turns his luck around. Even so Cadia has regiments scattered all around the galaxy fighting in the Emperor's name.

This is, of course, assuming the worst. Cadians will most likely reclaim their world, Abbadon will retreat and the day will belong to the Imperium. Cadia is too vital to leave in the hands of Chaos.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4646058.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4646058.page GMT Re:Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock? preparing for Abaddon's assault, which leads me to believe that it supposedly did not happen yet. The writers have turned back the clock a bit on this one.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4646068.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4646068.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock?
All the same, I can't help but sigh in disappoint regarding how GW refuses to advance the setting. I'm aware that GW considers 40K fluff to be a setting, not a story. I could care less. The table-top doesn't interest me at all, only the fluff. I would really like to see some stories take place beyond 999. M41]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4646143.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4646143.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock?
BlaxicanX wrote:Makes sense. The whole "Chaos won on the ground but the Imperium won in space" thing was a silly dynamic. Better to just pretend that whole thing didn't happen.

All the same, I can't help but sigh in disappoint regarding how GW refuses to advance the setting. I'm aware that GW considers 40K fluff to be a setting, not a story. I could care less. The table-top doesn't interest me at all, only the fluff. I would really like to see some stories take place beyond 999. M41


Actually it didn't happen. When the world wide campaign took place, Chaos won both on the ground and in space. GW decided that they wished to avoid 'Empire In Flames' mark II and set it up so that Imperial wins were counted several times in different pages of the results.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4646153.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4646153.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock?
However, ultimately the fluff was established that Chaos won on the planet and lost in Space. So what actually happened doesn't really matter much.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4646173.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4646173.page GMT Re:Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock?

Having the Campaign on the edge of hell, where if the bad guys win, the gak hits the fan so hard it leaves a fan sized hole in the wall, is not a good idea unless you are ok with the potential of that happening.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4646189.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4646189.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock?
Stormtrooper520 wrote:
Some say they are equals to space marines.


Some say plenty of false things. This just happens to be one of them. I once heard a man say the answer to life was under my subway seat. This man, of course, was on drugs.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4646504.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4646504.page GMT Re:Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock? GW do chose to resolve that stage of the crusade - something I'd rather appreciate, since Abaddon really would benefit from appearing less of an armless failure - they did provide themselves in the original campaign write-up with a potential "Neo-Cadia".

SENTINEL
During the opening stages of the Crusade, the sentinel worlds had little in the way of full-scale engagements, although a node in the webway stationed above the void worlds saw a lot of conflict between the Eldar and their enemies. The most notable development emerged from this unregarded backwater system just as the wars reached their peak, with hordes of silvered Necron warriors emerging from hidden tombs on the four planets surrounding Hydra Cordatus in a rough pyramid pattern. The Imperial forces stationed nearby feared the worst, but were amazed when the Necrontyr fell upon the soldiers of Chaos, turning the tide in favour of the forces of Order. Since that time, increased Necron activity in the sector has prevented any Imperial forces from capitalising upon these victories, and remote orbital pict-captures have even revealed several structures almost identical to the Cadian Pylons sprouting across the landscapes of these four sentinel worlds.


We may be fortunate enough to find out how everything was resolved on the 15th September...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4647152.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4647152.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock?
BlaxicanX wrote:
In space warfare, whoever has air superiority will win the fight regardless of what's happening on the ground. The Chaos forces can win as many battles on the ground as they want- they'll never be able to organize their troops into any real battlegroups because Imperium ships will just level them to paste with orbital bombardments. The Chaos forces will basically be forced to run around underground for the entirety of the war.

Abaddon was able to bypass Cadia with a fleet, but now that Imperial forces have space superiority around the Cadian Gate, that means no more fleet reinforcements for Abaddon.

The 13th Crusade did a number on the Imperium, but as long as they hold the Gate the fight's already lost for Abaddon.


Except that is not how it works in the 40K paradigm. GW has constructed a universe where space power is NOT the supreme be all and end all of the military forces. Arguing how it "should" be in your own personal fan universe has no bearing on the paradigm for the fictional universe that GW as IP holder has constructed.

In the 40K universe paradigm, space power is one arm, an important one, but not the only one that matters. In particular, with reference to the BFG rulebook, the firepower of ground defense installations actually is superior to a bombarding ship, and is likely far more affordable in terms of cost. The average planetary defense laser silo packs almost as much firepower as the broadside of a Gothic cruiser, with greater range than the Gothic. Likewise, the average planetary defense missile silo has the launch capacity of a full cruiser, and the average planetary defense air base has enough short range aerospace fighters and bombers to match a Dictator cruiser.

From the old GW Armageddon 3 website archived at http://web.archive.org/web/20040805101210/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/BFG/BFGmap.html

we can see the defenses of each hive on Armageddon comprised at least 4 air bases, 8 missile silos, and 8 laser silos. That kind of firepower would be enough to shred your average navy frigate, and even your average cruiser, if they tried to bombard the hive. Even if one takes Armageddon to be a more heavily defended than usual hive world, it still gives a rough gauge of the defenses a typical hive or fortress/Kasr might have, which still is likely to overpower most spaceships.

Then we have multiple examples extant in the universe of facilities and cities shielded by void shields or other more esoteric shields, so orbital bombardment isn't some instant "I win" card.


Achieving low orbit is essential to any such attack, as a drop ship's range is very limited and any attempt to bombard ground forces from a greater distance is purely up to chance. p. 48 BFG rulebook


Thus in 40K ships are only capable of low orbital attack, and this renders them vulnerable to return fire.

So, no, Abaddon holding the planets doesn't mean a loss, because ground defenses can fend off ships far more cost effectively. Also as others have mentioned, Chaos has daemonic summoning and other unconventional means of movement or resupply. Finally, it is not as if the Chaos forces are taking over uninhabited chunks of rock. Conquered Imperial territory will have supplies that can be used.

Also in the Black Library 13th Black Crusade background book, the characters state that no blockade is ever airtight, meaning there are still ships that get through on supply runs. It's a simple fact of the sheer vastness of space and the limited number of ships that can be on station, so an advantage in space does not mean some total choking off of supplies. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4647218.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4647218.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock?
BlaxicanX wrote:Doesn't matter what Failbaddon does.

In space warfare, whoever has air superiority will win the fight regardless of what's happening on the ground. The Chaos forces can win as many battles on the ground as they want- they'll never be able to organize their troops into any real battlegroups because Imperium ships will just level them to paste with orbital bombardments. The Chaos forces will basically be forced to run around underground for the entirety of the war.

Abaddon was able to bypass Cadia with a fleet, but now that Imperial forces have space superiority around the Cadian Gate, that means no more fleet reinforcements for Abaddon.

The 13th Crusade did a number on the Imperium, but as long as they hold the Gate the fight's already lost for Abaddon.


As the 13. Black Crusade backgroundbook stated, Quarren's fleet took heavy casualties when it drove off the Blackstone fortress.
With no immidiate reinforcements avaiable he might simply lack the strenght for a direct attack against Cadia, even if he has achieved
relative dominance in outer space.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4648338.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4648338.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock? 40k explanation. Think of it this way: If you can put it on a ship, you can put it on a planet, but you have no mass or volume limitations, and you don't have to rely on an esoteric power source small enough to fit in a spacecraft. Planetary defenses should always beat space-based defenses. Assuming Chaos actually can open non-spacecraft based supply lines, they could thrive on the planet indefinitely.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4648359.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4648359.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock?
Iracundus wrote:

Except that is not how it works in the 40K paradigm.
The 40K paradigm is idiotic and not worth the time it takes to dwell on it. In the 40K paradigm, bringing a knife to a gun fight makes perfect sense. It isn't based on any kind of logic or sense, and it's been written in such a way that anything is possible. That's why I don't take the 40K paradigm into consideration in my posts. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4648394.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4648394.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock? Vea Victis!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4648565.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4648565.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock?
Biophysical wrote:Think of it this way: If you can put it on a ship, you can put it on a planet, but you have no mass or volume limitations, and you don't have to rely on an esoteric power source small enough to fit in a spacecraft.
On the other hand, you have arcs of fire and blind spots to deal with. Unlike starships, planets usually do not turn around for a broadside.
So, unless you're comfortable littering the entire surface with gun batteries, there will be an opening. And even if you do that, you cannot bring all your weapons to bear on the enemy craft. And even of those guns that you can point towards the enemy, a large portion of those will have to deal with reduced accuracy and/or travel time. Missiles might be a better solution, but how many missiles would be left in those silos when the Imperium already used them trying to repel Abaddon's forces? And that's not even considering the possibility that a number of defence installations may have been scuttled by their defenders, or destroyed by Chaos forces during the initial invasion (assuming they did not plan on having to dig in so soon). Also, how many generatoriums are left on Cadia? How much fuel? An invasion as brutal and destructive as this (keeping in mind the sheer size of the populace putting up a fight necessitating wide-scale destruction of habitats) surely would have devastated the infrastructure?

Just something to consider. In my interpretation, planetary defences can surely be much more powerful than spaceborn weapon systems, but there are some drawbacks to keep in mind as well.

I'm curious to see whether GW is going to retcon anything about the 13th Black Crusade, though. The timeline rollback surely would only make sense if there's something in the pipes for the near future, right? Otherwise it'd just remove a potential and fun warzone to play games in with no good reason.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4648617.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4648617.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock?
Testify wrote:I have no idea how Abaddon is holding on in the first place. They're being bombed 24/7 with no reinforcements, and are completely surrounded with no supplies.
Vea Victis!


1. Chaos aren't being bombed 24/7 they are only subject to a relitivly low amount of bombardment from ships in the area that just drove off a black fortress aka are supper strapped of supplies. NTM the Impirum was blasted to hell by a BF so the ground isn't doing all that well either.

2. Abbandon isn't there, he's with planet killer fighting creed (and probably loosing, hey it's failbandon we're talking about).

3. Other systems are being pounded by the orks Green Kroosade and a tyranid splinter fleet.

4. Don't worry reinforcements are on their way from the eastern frin....oh wait (look up Hive fleet Leviathan)

All in all the Imperium is realing, and if GW ever desided to advance the story there could a a mountain of fluff and story they could harvest before coming to a screaching halt, like we all know they love to do, right before a monsterous cliff hanger.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4648638.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4648638.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock?
BlaxicanX wrote:
Iracundus wrote:

Except that is not how it works in the 40K paradigm.
The 40K paradigm is idiotic and not worth the time it takes to dwell on it. In the 40K paradigm, bringing a knife to a gun fight makes perfect sense. It isn't based on any kind of logic or sense, and it's been written in such a way that anything is possible. That's why I don't take the 40K paradigm into consideration in my posts.


Doesn't matter what you think because you don't own the IP and don't get to determine what the paradigm is. Arbitrarily ignoring the paradigm means you are playing in your own personal fan universe, and not really the main 40K universe. It is equally possible to claim it is possible for somebody to punch as hard as an anti-tank missile, yet it is possible in 40K with a power fist and no amount of personal dislike is going to change that fact. The same goes with the fact that 40K space power is not supreme.

Arguing that it "should" be does no good when GW has clearly shown both with background and rules that it is not. You are trying to alter and dictate the basic paradigm of the game universe but nobody can do that except GW.

The same reasoning would apply to any other fictional universe. Trying to argue that the shields on Hoth in the Empire Strikes Back should not be proof against bombardment does no good when the movie showed it was.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4649137.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4649137.page GMT Re:Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock?
Imperium does NOT have Orbital Naval Dominance

Allow me to demonstrate why.

Cadian (sector) 85% 100% Faithful
Cadian (system) 92% 29.4% Unreliable
Cadia (planet) 95% 39.8% Unreliable

Note the 3 locations available to Cadia...

Sector representing space along the entirety of sub sector, trade routes supply lines etc,
System representing in system control
Planet... Groundpounders

clearly seeing that Chaos held advantage in both System and Planet
This would suggest feleet capabilities in system and orbit with the Cadian system being locked down to reinforcements

Icarandus Summary
The Chaos fleet, including one of the Blackstone FOrtresses - ancient engines of destruction built aeons past by unknown xenos (Eldar) - gathered above Cadia but they were delayed by lightning-fast attacks on the Blackstone by squadrons of Eldar cruisers. Lord Admiral Quarren was quick to take advantage of the delay and his counter-strike flowed from Cadia, to Xerxia and finally Demios Binary (Forces of Order event card). By dint of this cunning manoeuvre Quarren succeeded, first in dividing the main fleet and, then, in pursuing the defeated elements to final extinction. Only those squadrons that stayed close to the Blackstone Fortress remained a threat but the Chaos fleet was now concerned more with survival. Most significantly the Imperial flagship Gathalamor crippled the Merciless Death driving it to the Warp from whence it took no further part in the war.


Ok we can see that the Chaos fleet was hammered, with the Blackstone and surrounding squadrons surviving.
Icarandus Summary
The Blackstone Fortress' weaponry beat down on Kasr Partox remorselessly slaughtering the warriors of both sides. Faced wit hthe certain destruction of Cadia's last defenders Admiral Quarren had no choice but to muster his battered fleet for yet another battle. One by one the screening Chaos vessels were peeled away from the Blacstone until eventually it was forced to cease its attack and concentrate upon its own defence. With the end of the Blackstone's attack an uneasy lulled settled on Cadia during which Cred evacuat
ed Kasr Partox while he still could."

Seems that Blackstonewas in orbit...

Final Newsletter

Cadia
The bleak moors of Cadia are reduced to a barren, crater-pocked wasteland, blasted by orbital torpedoes, super-heavy artillery and the footfall of titans. The Vilklas and Andur defence lines have collapsed under the relentless pressure of a million frenzied cultists, traitors and mutants, and the Cadian High Command has been forced to relocate to Kasr Gallan on the far side of the Caducades Sea. Though the Imperial Navy is in control of the inter-system space lanes, Chaos rules the skies above Cadia since the orbital defences fell in the opening days of the Black Crusade. The defenders of Cadia are now deployed around Kasr Gallan and throughout the Wastes, resolute that not a backward step shall be taken. The order is given- ‘stand at Cadia, or damn the Imperium of Mankind to the depredations of Chaos for all eternity’.


This would stand to reason also given the results. Imperium control inter system routes, but Chaos control the Cadia System.


Final Newsletter
The space lanes
The Imperial Navy has fought with courage and vigour throughout the war, ruthlessly taking the battle to the enemy wherever it encountered them. Admiral Quarren has been hailed a true hero of the Imperium, for his masterful defence of the space lanes was all that stood between survival, and utter defeat for the Imperium. Though Cadia is besieged, the Imperial Navy commands space, and is able to offer support to beleaguered forces on the ground. The only question is whether the rapid redeployment of almost the entirety of Battle Fleet Gothic, along with a substantial proportion of Battle Fleet Solar will leave the Navy dangerously overstretched elsewhere and unable to maintain the level of operations required to hold the line at the Cadian Gate.


So it does say Space lanes, but support to ground forces can be made, given that Chaos does not dominatre system control its not an unreasonable statement that some assuistance can be provided.Also for just how long is the Imperium willing to sacrifice the heartlands of Segmentum Solar before forces relocated?

13th Black Crusade Background Book
Admiral Quarren reports that the bulk of his fleet is destroyed

The Necrons drove the Blackstone fortress away, so the complete orbital control is a bit fuzzy, so I would have to work with final 5 scores already posted.

Basing that Cadia likely has Chaos supremacy in far orbit, and near planet, with Imperial blockading the system but capable of striking at the Cahos fleet, making it too risky for them to enter low orbit to provide orbital fire, equally the Imperium can break through, but to do so there blockade would weaken and they themselves are in a pretty strung up and battered.

This in my opinion is a decent reflection of both the fluff and the campaign % results.

The War on Cadia is down boots on the ground.







]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4649424.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4649424.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock?
Iracundus wrote:

Doesn't matter what you think because you don't own the IP and don't get to determine what the paradigm is. Arbitrarily ignoring the paradigm means you are playing in your own personal fan universe, and not really the main 40K universe. It is equally possible to claim it is possible for somebody to punch as hard as an anti-tank missile, yet it is possible in 40K with a power fist and no amount of personal dislike is going to change that fact. The same goes with the fact that 40K space power is not supreme.

Arguing that it "should" be does no good when GW has clearly shown both with background and rules that it is not. You are trying to alter and dictate the basic paradigm of the game universe but nobody can do that except GW.

The same reasoning would apply to any other fictional universe. Trying to argue that the shields on Hoth in the Empire Strikes Back should not be proof against bombardment does no good when the movie showed it was.

This is an online internet discussion forum and there are no rules stating that I have to kiss GW's ass. If I want to point out how moronic GW's fluff is and criticize how they handle their universe I can do so. If I want to ignore parts of the fluff that I don't like, I can do so. If I want to argue that Ultramarines secretly are all Chaos-tainted Guardsmen wearing power armor, I am allowed to do so. That is the point of this forum- for us to discuss Warhammer 40K. The most you or anyone else can do is just disagree with me.

Furthermore, by Games Workshops own admission, there is no such thing as canon. Everything within the fluff is "open to interpretation". Thus, your stance here is incorrect. GW hasn't established anything.

So yes, I'm sure GW has invented some silly justification for why Chaos still has a foothold on Cadia despite having no air support and being completely at the mercy of orbital bombardments. Realistically though, as I stated, so long as the Imperium has control of the surrounding space Chaos loss of Cadia is inevitable. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4649491.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4649491.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock?
BlaxicanX wrote:
Iracundus wrote:

Except that is not how it works in the 40K paradigm.
The 40K paradigm is idiotic and not worth the time it takes to dwell on it. In the 40K paradigm, bringing a knife to a gun fight makes perfect sense. It isn't based on any kind of logic or sense, and it's been written in such a way that anything is possible. That's why I don't take the 40K paradigm into consideration in my posts.

Except this is in the 40K universe, so it is all that matters.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4649552.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4649552.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock? 40K universe,]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4649619.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4649619.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock?
BlaxicanX wrote:This is an internet forum, not a 40K universe,

The debate is on the 40K universe. If GW says that having control of space isn't important, it isn't important. You can tell yourself whatever you want, but you are wrong. Also, as you yourself stated, the entire 40K universe isn't realistic, so why the big deal about space being the only meaningful part of warfare.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4649685.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4649685.page GMT Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock? 40K universe, but it's being discussed in the real world, not within the 40K. I don't have to use GW's twisted logic to discuss their universe.

And I again I point out that by GW's own words, there is no such thing as "canon" within their Universe. It's all up to personal interpretation and can be dismissed or taken into account at our discretion.

GW's words, not mine. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4649893.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4649893.page GMT Re:Unfair for Failbbadon? Also, no more Cadian Shock? 40K universe is not "anything goes" because if someone were to come along and said bolters fired flowers, people would not accept that as a valid interpretation but would clearly and categorically say they were wrong. The same goes if someone were to claim Sanguinius was four armed and wingless, or any other such claims. Clearly there is a de facto canon being adhered to as without such fixed facts and rules, there can be no setting at all, just total complete nonsense. Without what is a canon in all but name, it is not possible to say anything at all. Without fixed facts, and rules about how things interact, anything no matter how seemingly ridiculous can be said and have the same validity.

However, rules and a paradigm does not have to equate to "real life" paradigm. The existence of psychic powers and warp powered machinery is non-existent in real life yet it is accepted to work within 40K. Similarly, in 40K, it has been stated within background and even enumerated in the BFG rulebook (which is available online for all to check) showing the stats in question. Namely, it demonstrates that ground based defenses pack comparable firepower to ships at a fraction of the cost, making bombardment not the be all and end all of combat.

One might try to argue that doesn't make sense, however a knight in the medieval era could have argued it makes no sense for a foot soldier to be able to equal a knight on horseback. You can decide you prefer bolters to fire flowers, but that personal preference doesn't mean bolters fire flowers in 40K any more than a personal opinion that space power is supreme means suddenly 40K space power is supreme. In other words, personal opinions of how things "should" be have absolutely no weight when it comes to determining what things actually are in the overall 40K universe.

Paradigms of warfare can and have changed with changes in technology and the varying balance between offense and defense. In 40K, GW has determined that the balance of space vs. ground power is such that space power has influence but is not the sole arbiter of warfare. There is no grounds to challenge this just as there is no grounds to challenge and dismiss the existence of the warp in 40K. GW says there is such a parallel dimension/universe known as the warp and that faster than light travel is possible via using the warp. A person can deny this existence and say it is silly and stupid and makes no sense. They are fine to do so within their own personal fan universe or within their local gaming group, but they can't then go around to say they are really talking about the 40K universe as understood and shared by others, since the 40K universe has the warp.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4650776.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/469380/4650776.page GMT