<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Thousand Sons the only true Defence"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/31.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Thousand Sons the only true Defence
So on my journey to work i was thinking about this and i Just wanted your thoughts on which of the traitor legions loss was the biggest blow to the imperium... Do you think that if any one/two specific legion(s) had remained loyal it might have made a difference? Which one?

In my opinion I think that the thousand sons were the single biggest blow to the imperium, especially due to their fascination to the warp... When the heresy struck and the true face of the warp was shown the thousand sons would have been in the single greatest position to protect against chaos.

I forget where exactly and how it was out... But in Know No Fear:

I AM TRYING THIS SPOILER THING OUT FOR THE FIRST TIME SO BE WARNED I MAY HAVE DONE IT WRONG

Spoiler:
SPOILER: Roboute says to someone that the whole council of nikea and the Removal of the librarians must have been Orchestrated as they were/would have been the only defence against what the Ultramarines were seeing on Calth.


What are all your thoughts.... They weren't a big legion but the thousand sons were in a unique position with their inherent talents to fight chaos.

I know there were other big legions and thr numbers make a difference but I'm specifically talking about each of the traitor legions specific characteristics and whether these talents/attributes would have been big game changers

Forgive thr spelling mistakes, it's Friday... I've had a bit to drink.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4768955.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4768955.page GMT Thousand Sons the only true Defence
Psykers are the single biggest threat when it comes to the Warp, they are the only ones in direct contact with it, which means that they are more easily corrupted/possessed/contacted than anyone else. SO, a whole legion of psykers who have been dabbling with the Warp with very little knowledge of its dangers? No, i dont think they would have been the protection you envisage.

However, from what i have read Horus was duped into disbelieving Magnus when he tried to warn him, and the Emperor was forced into attacking the TSs when Magnus tried to warn him (after the council), so it is entirely possible that the removal of the TSs was orchestrated to purposefully take them 'out of play' as it were. My opinion? That there was potential for them to help the Imperium during the Heresy, but the opportunity arose during the beginning of the Heresy to take not only take them out, but to force them to join the Heresy, and this was seen as an opportunity too good to take...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4769237.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4769237.page GMT Thousand Sons the only true Defence http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4769503.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4769503.page GMT Thousand Sons the only true Defence http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4770140.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4770140.page GMT Thousand Sons the only true Defence
MarsNZ wrote:
I think you're spot on. I mean, after the Heresy they realised they were missing adequate defense and created the Grey Knights, a chapter of psykers.

Note:

But notably a Chapter of incorruptible psykers....as opposed to 'Warp dabblers'...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4770167.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4770167.page GMT Re:Thousand Sons the only true Defence
If a grey night thought the emperor betrayed them and they didn't have the knowledge of chaos who is to say they wouldn't fall.... If the thousand sons had been told by the emperor about the nature of chaos and the warp who is to say they wouldn't have resisted falling

(I love grey knights btw, they will never fall.... #justsaying)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4770184.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4770184.page GMT Thousand Sons the only true Defence
In False Gods, Erebus did try to trick Horus, however, he saw through it entirely. He also listened to Magnus' advice and opinions, then outright rejected them. At the end of the day, instead of getting a patsy like Erebus was hoping for, Horus chose to seize his own destiny and stepped on to the path of damnation willingly and knowingly.

It's also been hinted at/shown in the later books that even in an advisory role, Erebus and then Lorgar were sidelined.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4770187.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4770187.page GMT Thousand Sons the only true Defence http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4770200.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4770200.page GMT Re:Thousand Sons the only true Defence
Even though I have to say I agree completely with the person above this post!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 yeri wrote:
I recommend you read the Dronian Heresy, it's an alternate setting where the legions that went traitor are switched around. basically to save his legion Magnus has his entire legion soul-bound. the thousand sons act as the grey knights in that universe essentially.


I highly recommend this too!!!! Although tzeentch taking the raven guard was my only dislike in the whole series, felt like they had no one else to give to tzeentch and no place left for Corax so lumped them together.... Just my opinion of course]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4770205.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4770205.page GMT Thousand Sons the only true Defence
I mean, seriously... Their whole schtick was that they were a step away from falling to Khorne (he assumingly says while waiting for Fear to Tread to turn up in the mail)

It was a nice concept, but there was significantly more I disliked about the idea than liked. The only thing I found was really neat was the ultramarines going independent, cause well, they would...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4770219.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4770219.page GMT Thousand Sons the only true Defence
yeri wrote:I recommend you read the Dronian Heresy, it's an alternate setting where the legions that went traitor are switched around. basically to save his legion Magnus has his entire legion soul-bound. the thousand sons act as the grey knights in that universe essentially.

I hope you mean Dornian Heresy? Also, yes, its very well done.

Compel wrote:To say Horus was 'duped' is wrong, however. It's actually a disservice to the character and ends up making him more of a pawn than anything else.

In False Gods, Erebus did try to trick Horus, however, he saw through it entirely. He also listened to Magnus' advice and opinions, then outright rejected them. At the end of the day, instead of getting a patsy like Erebus was hoping for, Horus chose to seize his own destiny and stepped on to the path of damnation willingly and knowingly.

It's also been hinted at/shown in the later books that even in an advisory role, Erebus and then Lorgar were sidelined.

*sigh* not 'duped' then, how about manipulated and corrupted into turning on the Imperium? That better?

I have read False Gods, and i (quite vividly) remember him being manipulated into already disbelieving Magnus before he manages to break through. I may be wrong, i will have to dig it out and re-read it if i am (please let me know, id rather be told so i can re-read it and find out)

Magnus The Mauve wrote:Yes, but the thousand sons were extremely loyal... They believed that the emperor had completely abandoned them and had nowhere else to turn, at this point chaos was new to them and Magnus didn't know how manipulative tzeentch was, he had no understanding of the nature of chaos... The emperor never told him about chaos and therefore the thousand sons weren't prepared like the grey knights are

If a grey night thought the emperor betrayed them and they didn't have the knowledge of chaos who is to say they wouldn't fall.... If the thousand sons had been told by the emperor about the nature of chaos and the warp who is to say they wouldn't have resisted falling

(I love grey knights btw, they will never fall.... #justsaying)

Theres no denying their loyalty to start with, the whole reason they turn traitor in the first place is because of mis-interpreted loyalty. However, you prove my point with your second sentence. They didnt know how manipulative Tzeentch is. Simple as that, and since they arent incorruptible, they would have fallen to Chaos anyway. Its sad, but nearly inevitable at that stage, especially because the Emperor kept knowledge of Chaos from them, they were totally unprepared....

(and dont hash-tag, this isnt Twitter for Gods sake /personal opinion)
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4770224.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4770224.page GMT Thousand Sons the only true Defence
 Compel wrote:
To say Horus was 'duped' is wrong, however. It's actually a disservice to the character and ends up making him more of a pawn than anything else.
Horus was a pawn. He was never anything more than Chaos's own personal nancy.

Spoiler:
It is explicitly said by the Daemon in Prospero Burns that they (Chaos) orchestrated events to try to bring about the mutual destruction of the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves Legion, though in A Thousand Sons Tzeentch seems to have always planned for the Sons to become his Legion.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4770249.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4770249.page GMT Thousand Sons the only true Defence http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4770258.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4770258.page GMT Thousand Sons the only true Defence
 Revenent Reiko wrote:
But notably a Chapter of incorruptible psykers....as opposed to 'Warp dabblers'...


Grey Knights aren't Incorruptible, one day one will fall, as their story goes on it is already getting closer. The Eldar hold the only beings that are immune to Chaos, the White Seers. Grey Knights take their strength from their faith in the Emperor, the act of shedding the blood of Sisters of Battle to combat a bloodtide indicates their 'power' is waning, not to the point of heresy but that it is waning, just like the Emperor himself is waning and will one day die. Then Chaos will rule until Tyranidverse comes. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4770281.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4770281.page GMT Thousand Sons the only true Defence
SkyD wrote:
 Revenent Reiko wrote:
But notably a Chapter of incorruptible psykers....as opposed to 'Warp dabblers'...


Grey Knights aren't Incorruptible, one day one will fall, as their story goes on it is already getting closer. The Eldar hold the only beings that are immune to Chaos, the White Seers. Grey Knights take their strength from their faith in the Emperor, the act of shedding the blood of Sisters of Battle to combat a bloodtide indicates their 'power' is waning, not to the point of heresy but that it is waning, just like the Emperor himself is waning and will one day die. Then Chaos will rule until Tyranidverse comes.

Really? From their recent fluff, it seems they are turning them out purer than ever. They have guys that can't die, others that use "the scariest daemon sword evah omg!!!11!!1!" like a back-scratcher, and Draigo is the most powerful being in the universe. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4770288.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4770288.page GMT Thousand Sons the only true Defence
SkyD wrote:
 Revenent Reiko wrote:
But notably a Chapter of incorruptible psykers....as opposed to 'Warp dabblers'...


Grey Knights aren't Incorruptible, one day one will fall, as their story goes on it is already getting closer. The Eldar hold the only beings that are immune to Chaos, the White Seers. Grey Knights take their strength from their faith in the Emperor, the act of shedding the blood of Sisters of Battle to combat a bloodtide indicates their 'power' is waning, not to the point of heresy but that it is waning, just like the Emperor himself is waning and will one day die. Then Chaos will rule until Tyranidverse comes.

You have no fluff to back that up, nothing. Every bit of GK fluff ever written has them as incorruptible, this hasnt changed (in fact, there are now GKs who are even more incorruptible than they were before in the new Codex).

has the Bloodtide (a monstrously powerful weapon/phenomena) been used against GKs before? No. So you cant compare their 'power' (what ever that may be) now as opposed to a theoretical 'then' can you?

EDIT: ninja'd

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4770301.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4770301.page GMT Thousand Sons the only true Defence
Like, every Grey Knight is completely incorruptible. But the Purifiers are even MORE incorruptible! And Crowe makes your average Purifier look like a Slaaneshi cultist in a blood orgy!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4770607.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4770607.page GMT Thousand Sons the only true Defence False Gods: Page 324:


----------------------------------------------
Spoiler:

"You see," said Erebus, turning to Horus, 'he cannot be trusted.'

"Nor can you, Erebus, said Horus. "You come to me cloaked in the identity of another, you claim my brother Magnus is naught but some warp beast set upon devouring me, and then you speak to him as thought he is exactly as he seems. If he is here by sorcery, how else can you be here?"

....
.....

"The future is not set, Horus. Erebus may have shown you [i]a future, but that is only one possible future."
....
"You think I don't know that, Magnus," snapped Horus. "I know of the warp and the tricks it can play with the mind. I am not stupid. I knew that this was not Sejanus just as I know that without a context, everything I have seen here is meaningless."
Horus saw the crestfallen look on Erebus's face and laughed.
"You must take me for a fool, Erebus, if you thought that such simple parlour tricks would benefit me to your cause."

"My brother, smiled Magnus. "You are a wonder to me."
"Be quiet," snarled Horus. "You are no better than Erebus. You will not manipulate me like this, for I am Horus. I am the Warmaster!"

...

"I can trust neither of you," he said. "I am Horus and I make my own fate."

-----------------------------------------

Erebus, Lorgar and the Chaos gods may have made plans, tried to set up circumstances for Horus to fall. That still doesn't make Horus a pawn, he was not let through the gates of damnation blind and clueless on a lead held by Erebus.

He had made a decision, a single choice, Horus was the Warmaster and it was him that chose to rebel.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4771190.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4771190.page GMT Thousand Sons the only true Defence
 Compel wrote:

False Gods: Page 324:


----------------------------------------------
Spoiler:

"You see," said Erebus, turning to Horus, 'he cannot be trusted.'

"Nor can you, Erebus, said Horus. "You come to me cloaked in the identity of another, you claim my brother Magnus is naught but some warp beast set upon devouring me, and then you speak to him as thought he is exactly as he seems. If he is here by sorcery, how else can you be here?"

....
.....

"The future is not set, Horus. Erebus may have shown you [i]a future, but that is only one possible future."
....
"You think I don't know that, Magnus," snapped Horus. "I know of the warp and the tricks it can play with the mind. I am not stupid. I knew that this was not Sejanus just as I know that without a context, everything I have seen here is meaningless."
Horus saw the crestfallen look on Erebus's face and laughed.
"You must take me for a fool, Erebus, if you thought that such simple parlour tricks would benefit me to your cause."

"My brother, smiled Magnus. "You are a wonder to me."
"Be quiet," snarled Horus. "You are no better than Erebus. You will not manipulate me like this, for I am Horus. I am the Warmaster!"

...

"I can trust neither of you," he said. "I am Horus and I make my own fate."

-----------------------------------------

Erebus, Lorgar and the Chaos gods may have made plans, tried to set up circumstances for Horus to fall. That still doesn't make Horus a pawn, he was not let through the gates of damnation blind and clueless on a lead held by Erebus.

He had made a decision, a single choice, Horus was the Warmaster and it was him that chose to rebel.



This was the one point in all the Horus heresy where I thought Horus was a hopeless case.... and the point where Magnus' fate was sealed... What a brilliant turning point in the entire series. Horus turning his back on the advice of his brother and Magnus crossing the threshold into sorcery and eventual damnation. Makes me want to read it again....]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4771206.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4771206.page GMT Thousand Sons the only true Defence
SkyD wrote:
The Eldar hold the only beings that are immune to Chaos, the White Seers.


I don't like Ward's fluff, but I don't like Xenos taking first place even more. Prove to me that 'White Seers' can walk in the Warp for centuries untainted, can burn down Nurgle's jungles, kill a Bloodthirster and use the purified molten metal of its axe to reforge their sword, and the many other things Lord Draigo has done, and maybe I'll accept them as truly incorruptible.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4771356.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4771356.page GMT Thousand Sons the only true Defence
 Compel wrote:

False Gods: Page 324:


----------------------------------------------
Spoiler:

"You see," said Erebus, turning to Horus, 'he cannot be trusted.'

"Nor can you, Erebus, said Horus. "You come to me cloaked in the identity of another, you claim my brother Magnus is naught but some warp beast set upon devouring me, and then you speak to him as thought he is exactly as he seems. If he is here by sorcery, how else can you be here?"

....
.....

"The future is not set, Horus. Erebus may have shown you [i]a future, but that is only one possible future."
....
"You think I don't know that, Magnus," snapped Horus. "I know of the warp and the tricks it can play with the mind. I am not stupid. I knew that this was not Sejanus just as I know that without a context, everything I have seen here is meaningless."
Horus saw the crestfallen look on Erebus's face and laughed.
"You must take me for a fool, Erebus, if you thought that such simple parlour tricks would benefit me to your cause."

"My brother, smiled Magnus. "You are a wonder to me."
"Be quiet," snarled Horus. "You are no better than Erebus. You will not manipulate me like this, for I am Horus. I am the Warmaster!"

...

"I can trust neither of you," he said. "I am Horus and I make my own fate."

-----------------------------------------

Erebus, Lorgar and the Chaos gods may have made plans, tried to set up circumstances for Horus to fall. That still doesn't make Horus a pawn, he was not let through the gates of damnation blind and clueless on a lead held by Erebus.

He had made a decision, a single choice, Horus was the Warmaster and it was him that chose to rebel.


Thank you for the quote. contextually,
Spoiler:
he had already been corrupted by the sword blow and manipulated into going into the lodge to be 'healed', so he isnt exactly in his purest frame of mind at this point.
But yes, he made the decision to turn in the end, i stand (or sit in this case) corrected.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4771599.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4771599.page GMT Thousand Sons the only true Defence
The Thousand Sons were damned the nanosecond that Magnus brokered his deal with Tzneetch. Even if they had followed the Edict of Nikkea and not been sanctioned by the Wolves, it could have been a casual flick of the wrist by Tzneetch to flesh change the entire Legion.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4773556.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4773556.page GMT Thousand Sons the only true Defence
 Compel wrote:

False Gods: Page 324:


----------------------------------------------
Spoiler:

"You see," said Erebus, turning to Horus, 'he cannot be trusted.'

"Nor can you, Erebus, said Horus. "You come to me cloaked in the identity of another, you claim my brother Magnus is naught but some warp beast set upon devouring me, and then you speak to him as thought he is exactly as he seems. If he is here by sorcery, how else can you be here?"

....
.....

"The future is not set, Horus. Erebus may have shown you [i]a future, but that is only one possible future."
....
"You think I don't know that, Magnus," snapped Horus. "I know of the warp and the tricks it can play with the mind. I am not stupid. I knew that this was not Sejanus just as I know that without a context, everything I have seen here is meaningless."
Horus saw the crestfallen look on Erebus's face and laughed.
"You must take me for a fool, Erebus, if you thought that such simple parlour tricks would benefit me to your cause."

"My brother, smiled Magnus. "You are a wonder to me."
"Be quiet," snarled Horus. "You are no better than Erebus. You will not manipulate me like this, for I am Horus. I am the Warmaster!"

...

"I can trust neither of you," he said. "I am Horus and I make my own fate."

-----------------------------------------

Erebus, Lorgar and the Chaos gods may have made plans, tried to set up circumstances for Horus to fall. That still doesn't make Horus a pawn, he was not let through the gates of damnation blind and clueless on a lead held by Erebus.

He had made a decision, a single choice, Horus was the Warmaster and it was him that chose to rebel.


Very few pawns realise they are indeed pawns.

Horus had already been corrupted by Chaos by this point, Horus didn't have a choice, only the illusion of a choice, much in the same way Magnus did when he "chose" to align himself with Tzeentch to save his Legion from the razing of Prospero.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4773578.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4773578.page GMT Thousand Sons the only true Defence
Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
One point to remember,

The Thousand Sons were damned the nanosecond that Magnus brokered his deal with Tzneetch. Even if they had followed the Edict of Nikkea and not been sanctioned by the Wolves, it could have been a casual flick of the wrist by Tzneetch to flesh change the entire Legion.


And remember "First time he called upon Tzeench is moments before he steped into the fight on Prospero" , so he did depent heavily on him (like chaos suckling Horus)...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4774169.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4774169.page GMT Thousand Sons the only true Defence
smUrfsrUs wrote:
The Emperor sent Russ to bring Magnus back to Terra but Horus intercepted the message and convinced Russ that he should just kill Magnus instead.


No,

Magnus warned the Emperor of Horus's treachery.

The Emperor got mad and then told Horus to tell Russ to bring Magnus to him.

Horus then told Russ the Emperor wanted Magnus killed.


The Emperor was seriously stupid. He told the very person he had been warned about to deal with the person who warned him.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4774376.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4774376.page GMT Thousand Sons the only true Defence
 Grey Templar wrote:
smUrfsrUs wrote:
The Emperor sent Russ to bring Magnus back to Terra but Horus intercepted the message and convinced Russ that he should just kill Magnus instead.


No,

Magnus warned the Emperor of Horus's treachery.

The Emperor got mad and then told Horus to tell Russ to bring Magnus to him.

Horus then told Russ the Emperor wanted Magnus killed.


The Emperor was seriously stupid. He told the very person he had been warned about to deal with the person who warned him.


Oooo, again with this...here is the facts (from codex and the books) which are very contradicting
1. Emp ordered Russ to take Magnus down (YES it was writen somewhere,but I'm old and I don't remeber where but I'm pretty sure it was regular)
2. Horus changed orders from "bring to kill"
3. Horus swayed Russ to break the Cyclops( based on TS novel) reasons are stated also (he wanted to remove one of the toughest legion from his way to terra and killing one legion who could actually hurt him)

Truth is somewhere in the cloud....

and once and for all , here is the quote
Spoiler:
What advantage is that?’ asked Maloghurst, exactly on cue.
‘We have the advantage of surprise. No one yet suspects us of having learned the Emperor’s true plan, and in that lies our greatest weapon.’
‘But what of Magnus?’ asked Maloghurst urgently, ‘What happens when Leman Russ returns him to Terra?’
Horus smiled. ‘Calm yourself, Mal. I have already contacted my brother Russ and illuminated him with the full breadth of Magnus’s treacherous use of daemonic spells and conjurations. He was… suitably angry, and I believe I have convinced him that to return Magnus to Terra would be a waste of time and effort.’
Maloghurst returned Horus’s smile. ‘Magnus will not leave Prospero alive.’
‘No,’ agreed Horus. ‘He will not.’


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4774457.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4774457.page GMT Thousand Sons the only true Defence
Index Astartes: Thousand Sons

This article has Leman Russ actually with the Emperor when Magnus sent his message that blasted the webway into the Imperial Palace. In this instance, the Emperor orders Russ, directly, to unleash the Wolves upon the Thousand Sons.

Index Astartes: Space Wolves

This article has Russ convincing the Emperor that it was Magnus that was the traitor, not Horus, after Magnus delivers his message into the Imperial Palace and thus Russ is sent to sanction the Thousand Sons by the Emperor.

Now we get to the new canon as presented by the HH series that the Emperor sent Russ to "arrest" Magnus, but is then convinced by Horus to kill instead of "arrest" Magnus.

So pick and choose as you please.

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After all, if they had not turned the heresy wouldn't have happened.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4774796.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/476426/4774796.page GMT