<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer?"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/15.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer? FAQ's isn't making me entirely certain.
I'm talking about Immotekh's one-shot weapon, in case that wasn't clear to everyone.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4982493.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4982493.page GMT Re:Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer?
This weapon also doesn't clarify anywhere that when shooting it normally that the unit that Imotekh has joined has to shoot a target that was hit by this weapon firing, or that the beam has to hit a unit that the unit he is with fired at. If you think the unit is going to get charged by multiple units, nothing stopping you from picking a direction that would put the beam to hit that 2nd unit before he even declares a charge with it, which would also defeat your opponents intent of having the first unit soak the Overwatch, which while not said anywhere, is against the spirit of the rules, but not all players care about that.

The FAQ says that weapons that automatically hit still automatically hit when firing 'Snap Shots'. Really wish this would just say 'No' and it would stop conflicting with the FAQ when dealing with flyers. I've always read this as an Independent rule from firing 'Overwatch', which is one of the situations where the 'Snap Shot' rule kicks in, but several players look at it that if a weapon CAN fire Snap Shots, then it can fire on 'Overwatch'. This just leaves the door open that you could, and it could still be ruled that way. If were a TO/Judge/ I'd say no until I saw a FAQ on it.

I simply wouldn't do it because it would be another abuse of the rules. There are plenty of players out there who abuse the rules with their own armies and the last thing we need is Necron players using this to make every Necron player hated for being cheeseheads, when it's probably the minority using it.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4982815.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4982815.page GMT Re:Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer? (aka: weapons which cannot be fired as a snapshot)

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4982939.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4982939.page GMT Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer? It would fall under the same scenario as a beam/line weapon and cannot fire as snapshots.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4982955.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4982955.page GMT Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4982962.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4982962.page GMT Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer? BS, therefor it cannot snap fire.

The only thing that gets around this is flamers. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4982968.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4982968.page GMT Re:Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer? BS?? If none, then why the FAQ? What is the defines an attack that automatically hits that uses BS?

Im not trying to start a Flame war here, just honestly curious. If the criteria is that it generates hits, then the Staff does. In comparison to the monolith by comparison, it's a shooting attack, but it doesn't generate any hits, it only generates a test.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4983014.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4983014.page GMT Re:Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer?
 Akar wrote:
K, so now Im curious. What weapons in the game automatically hit that also use BS?? If none, then why the FAQ? What is the defines an attack that automatically hits that uses BS?

Im not trying to start a Flame war here, just honestly curious. If the criteria is that it generates hits, then the Staff does. In comparison to the monolith by comparison, it's a shooting attack, but it doesn't generate any hits, it only generates a test.


Tesla weapon on 6's for one.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4983104.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4983104.page GMT Re:Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer?
 Neorealist wrote:
Nothing currently in the rules indicating it cannot be used for overwatch, as it is not a type of weapon that is prevented from doing so. (aka: weapons which cannot be fired as a snapshot)



It's fired exactly like the death ray and that also can't be a snap shot...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4983215.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4983215.page GMT Re:Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer?
Kevin949 wrote:It's fired exactly like the death ray and that also can't be a snap shot...
Due to a specific FAQ entry detailing that it can't. The staff of the destroyer has no such similar entry.

I agree that it is fired 'like' a deathray so there is precident there, I just dispute that there is a specific rule indicating that it can't.

This:
"Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes." Indicates that 'hitting automatically' is not necessarily the same thing as 'not using a Ballistic skill.' as if it was the scenario it presents would be impossible.

Sadly for the purposes of this:
"It's important to note that any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill ... cannot be fired as a Snap Shot."
the phrase 'Use a Ballistic Skill' is not given enough context either in the rule itself or in general to include or preclude the 'Staff of the Destroyer's' effect.

It's reasonable to presume that anything which hits automatically is not using a Ballistic skill, but if so; why have a specific FAQ entry contradicting that?
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4984336.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4984336.page GMT Re:Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer?
 Neorealist wrote:
Sadly for the purposes of this:
"It's important to note that any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill ... cannot be fired as a Snap Shot."
the phrase 'Use a Ballistic Skill' is not given enough context either in the rule itself or in general to include or preclude the 'Staff of the Destroyer's' effect.

It's relatively simple - does the Staff of the Destroyer use Ballistic Skill to hit?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4984341.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4984341.page GMT Re:Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer?
rigeld2 wrote:It's relatively simple - does the Staff of the Destroyer use Ballistic Skill to hit?


perhaps. it 'hits automatically' could just as easily mean 'You are always considered to be successful on the 'Roll to Hit' as it does 'You do not use the Ballistic Skill of the model for this weapon'; especially given the other FAQ entry i quoted above which indicates you are able to make snapshots with weapons that hit automatically.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4984403.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4984403.page GMT Re:Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer?
 Neorealist wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:It's relatively simple - does the Staff of the Destroyer use Ballistic Skill to hit?


perhaps. it 'hits automatically' could just as easily mean 'You are always considered to be successful on the 'Roll to Hit' as it does 'You do not use the Ballistic Skill of the model for this weapon'; especially given the other FAQ entry i quoted above which indicates you are able to make snapshots with weapons that hit automatically.

Except the Staff doesn't say that it hits automatically.
The Staff says to draw a line and everything under the line suffers X number of hits.
There's no use of Ballistic Skill in the rule.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4984411.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4984411.page GMT Re:Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer?
rigeld2 wrote:Except the Staff doesn't say that it hits automatically.
The Staff says to draw a line and everything under the line suffers X number of hits.
There's no use of Ballistic Skill in the rule.


There aren't many weapons which 'do' explicitly state they hit automatically, (and as you've noticed the staff of the destroyer isn't one of them) as part of their rules text and pretty much none that i can think of off hand that explicitly mention that they use the models' ballistic skill. That (the use of a models' ballistic skill for the purposes of firing) appears to be taken for granted from parsing the shooting phase rules. There are however several rules such as Blast or Template which explicitly mention they do 'not' roll to hit somewhere in their rules text and also explicitly mention they cannot be snapshot either. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4984456.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4984456.page GMT Re:Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer?
 Neorealist wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:Except the Staff doesn't say that it hits automatically.
The Staff says to draw a line and everything under the line suffers X number of hits.
There's no use of Ballistic Skill in the rule.


There aren't many weapons which 'do' explicitly state they hit automatically, (and as you've noticed the staff of the destroyer isn't one of them) as part of their rules text and pretty much none that i can think of off hand that explicitly mention that they use the models' ballistic skill. That (the use of a models' ballistic skill for the purposes of firing) appears to be taken for granted from parsing the shooting phase rules. There are however several rules such as Blast or Template which explicitly mention they do 'not' roll to hit somewhere in their rules text and also explicitly mention they cannot be snapshot either.

Rolling a 6 on a Tesla weapon generates automatic hits - but the weapon uses BS to hit so they're fine.
The Arc says that it generates automatic hits, but it's not using BS to hit - it uses a different mechanic to hit.

Does the Staff follow the normal rules (found in the Shooting Phase rules) to generate hits? Or does it use some other one?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4984468.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4984468.page GMT Re:Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer? 'some' of the normal rules for the shooting phase, sure. Is there a specific rule which i'm not seeing in the shooting phase section which explicitly indicates a shot is resolved (or not) using a models' ballistic skill if and only if a roll is made against same? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4984479.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4984479.page GMT Re:Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer?
 Neorealist wrote:
It uses 'some' of the normal rules for the shooting phase, sure. Is there a specific rule which i'm not seeing in the shooting phase section which explicitly indicates a shot is resolved (or not) using a models' ballistic skill if and only if a roll is made against same?

We have a rule on rolling to hit - it uses a model's Ballistic Skill.
Do you have any rule that uses the model's Ballistic Skill to hit with the Staff?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4984524.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4984524.page GMT Re:Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer?
 Neorealist wrote:
Kevin949 wrote:It's fired exactly like the death ray and that also can't be a snap shot...
Due to a specific FAQ entry detailing that it can't. The staff of the destroyer has no such similar entry.

I agree that it is fired 'like' a deathray so there is precident there, I just dispute that there is a specific rule indicating that it can't.

This:
"Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes." Indicates that 'hitting automatically' is not necessarily the same thing as 'not using a Ballistic skill.' as if it was the scenario it presents would be impossible.

Sadly for the purposes of this:
"It's important to note that any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill ... cannot be fired as a Snap Shot."
the phrase 'Use a Ballistic Skill' is not given enough context either in the rule itself or in general to include or preclude the 'Staff of the Destroyer's' effect.

It's reasonable to presume that anything which hits automatically is not using a Ballistic skill, but if so; why have a specific FAQ entry contradicting that?


No, the FAQ had the death ray as an example. That does not limit the FAQ to only those items listed in the example. I fear many people don't understand these things. It's a simple situation of walks like a duck, talks a duck...

Because not everything that hits automatically bypasses BS, such as tesla weapons earlier mentioned. Or perhaps psychic powers fired from a vehicle that has suffered crew shaken/stunned. Those are reasons why the FAQ entry exists.

But no, the biggest reason the staff can't be used on overwatch is because it cannot be fired as a snap shot.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4984553.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4984553.page GMT Re:Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer?
rigeld2 wrote:We have a rule on rolling to hit - it uses a model's Ballistic Skill.
Do you have any rule that uses the model's Ballistic Skill to hit with the Staff?

yep, the one that says you need a Ballistic Skill to fire a weapon: even one that is a blast, template, or otherwise doesn't require a roll to hit. See Zero-Level Characteristics.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4984901.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4984901.page GMT Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer? Ami I missing it or are you referring to a different page?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4984918.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4984918.page GMT Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer?
rigeld2 wrote:
Zero Level characteristics on page 3 doesn't mention Ballistic Skill.
Ami I missing it or are you referring to a different page?


FaQ Page 3 clearly references BS and 0 level characteristics. (They even reference P3 in the BRB).

"Q: What happens if a model with BS0 takes a Snap Shot? Do they
count as having a BS of 1? (13)
A: Models with BS 0 cannot make any form of Shooting
attack – see the rules for zero-level characteristics on page 3."

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2590005a_40K_RULEBOOK_v1a.pdf]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4984946.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4984946.page GMT Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer? BS can snap shot. Shooting in and of itself does not use your BS.

Edit - but thanks... Hence the reason I asked for clarification. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4985049.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4985049.page GMT Re:Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer? 'using' i went with it meaning 'making any form of shooting attack' as opposed to 'has to roll against the ballistic skill table'.

So far as i can tell they are both equally valid interpretations of the word 'using', but one lends itself to allowing one to snapshot with a weapon that hits automatically (as per the earlier faq entry i posted), and one does not.

I'm not saying you are wrong in your interpetation Rigeld2 just that there are multiple possible interpretations given the various rules and FAQ entries that have been posted in this thread. (Which usually indicates we'll need to wait until the weapon itself is given an FAQ entry of it's own that is relevant to the OPs' question.)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4986913.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4986913.page GMT Re:Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer?
 Neorealist wrote:
Given there isn't a specific rules definition of the word 'using' i went with it meaning 'making any form of shooting attack' as opposed to 'has to roll against the ballistic skill table'.

So far as i can tell they are both equally valid interpretations of the word 'using', but one lends itself to allowing one to snapshot with a weapon that hits automatically (as per the earlier faq entry i posted), and one does not.

I'm not saying you are wrong in your interpetation Rigeld2 just that there are multiple possible interpretations given the various rules and FAQ entries that have been posted in this thread. (Which usually indicates we'll need to wait until the weapon itself is given an FAQ entry of it's own that is relevant to the OPs' question.)

Not... really.

A positive BS allows you to shoot. You never use your BS to make that shot with the Staff.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4987405.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4987405.page GMT Re:Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer?
rigeld2 wrote:
A positive BS allows you to shoot. You never use your BS to make that shot with the Staff.
That is your interpretation; and as i've already said it's a reasonable one to make.

As i've already indicated however there isn't a rules-specific definition of the word 'use', so my interpretation that you 'use' the ballistic skill by 'making any form of shooting attack' and yours that you 'use' the ballistic skill by 'rolling to hit' (i believe, correct me if i am wrong about your point) hold equal weight as they are both merely our respective interpretations of the rules as they are written.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4987482.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4987482.page GMT Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer?
Is the Staff of the Destroyer fired as a Snap Shot?

If Yes, then you can Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer.

If No, then you can not Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4987614.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4987614.page GMT Re:Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer?
 Neorealist wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
A positive BS allows you to shoot. You never use your BS to make that shot with the Staff.
That is your interpretation; and as i've already said it's a reasonable one to make.

As i've already indicated however there isn't a rules-specific definition of the word 'use', so my interpretation that you 'use' the ballistic skill by 'making any form of shooting attack' and yours that you 'use' the ballistic skill by 'rolling to hit' (i believe, correct me if i am wrong about your point) hold equal weight as they are both merely our respective interpretations of the rules as they are written.

Can you explain how giving yourself permission is "using" your ballistic skill?
I want to shoot.
Do I have a Ballistic Skill? Yes.
I have permission to shoot.

I can't fathom that sequence including a "use" of BS.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4987664.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4987664.page GMT Re:Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer? 'use' a models' ballistic skill to 'make a shooting attack'. If the model does not have one, you cannot do so.

Can you explain how giving yourself permission is 'not' using a models' Ballistic skill?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4987798.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4987798.page GMT Re:Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer?
 Neorealist wrote:
Sure: My point is that you have to 'use' a models' ballistic skill to 'make a shooting attack'. If the model does not have one, you cannot do so.

Can you explain how giving yourself permission is 'not' using a models' Ballistic skill?

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/use

take, hold, or deploy (something) as a means of accomplishing or achieving something; employ

You don't have to use a model's ballistic skill to make a shooting attack any more than you have to use your Wounds stat to ensure the model stays on the board (or Strength or Toughness).
You use the skill when you employ it - you employ the skill (in the BRB) by making a shooting attack that rolls to hit.

A simple check to see it's nonzero isn't using the skill.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4987898.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4987898.page GMT Re:Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer? 'employ' a models' Ballistic skill as a means of accomplishing 'any shooting attacks' on that models' behalf.

At this point however we are arguing the semantics of the word 'use' rather than anything with a specifically detailed function within the context of a 40k rulebook, so i'm going to let this one go.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4987931.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4987931.page GMT Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer?
Is the Staff of the Destroyer fired as a Snap Shot? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4987949.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4987949.page GMT Can you Overwatch with Staff of the Destroyer?
 DeathReaper wrote:
"Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots" P.21

Is the Staff of the Destroyer fired as a Snap Shot?


You bring up a good point. The Staff of the Destroyer is pretty much a death ray for all intensive purposes and functions the same way. The line created by the Staff of the Destroyer instant hits the target and overwatch only permits snap shots to be fired.

I would favor the side that says no in this matter. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4991290.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/489129/4991290.page GMT