<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness)"]]>

<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness)"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/8.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness)
I'm about to start a Warhammer 40k army as it's something i've wanted to do for a long time but haven't had the chance to due to various reasons. I've just purchased the Dark Vengeance LE box set and i can't wait for it to come! I hope to start a DA army! My main question is if someone would be able to give me a heads up as to what direction to go in when considering purchasing brushes, glues, files and the like. As i've been roaming the forums it seems GW products aren't always the best choice, but as there's quite a few different brands i'm unsure of what to purchase.

With paints i'll be going for Vallejo/Citadel paints. Glues, files and sprue cutters i'll also be going with Citadel. I've seen a few videos in which people attach models to a longer base, such as the bottom of a Citadel paint jar, i presume this is to assist with the painting of the model to prevent any natural oils touching the model and to get a bit of leverage.

My main concern are the brushes. I won't be airbrushing as i don't have a designated area for it so i will be painting free hand. I've had a look and it seems like there's quite a bit of talk around W&N series 7 brushes, but there's quite a few different sizes so i'm unsure which ones to get and if they're worth the money (I'll be purchasing from the down under so it will be a bit expensive).

Anyway, thank you for taking the time to read my post and any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks guys!
Jaygonx]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5127534.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5127534.page GMT General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness) GW glues. Just buy any cyano glue (super glue) for metal and resin models. And buy plastic glue like the revell one for plastics.

Go for GW primer. They're not the cheapest, but they're definitely good. Files and hand driller from GW are ok too. Their paints are good, I exclusively use them since I started, only because I'm used to using these, but Vallejo are quite renowned too.

Beware of GW Purity seal varnish 'cause it's not a matte varnish, it is satin. It's not a problem if you want a satin look, but if you're looking for matt you'll be desappointed.

Regarding the brushes, I use 8404 series from Raphael. The size does not matter that much, I personnally prefer quite big brushes (size 4 and size 2) but my friend prefers smaller ones. What matters however is the point of the brush. A big brush with a good, fine and well designed point is MUCH more precise than a poor quality small brush.

Hope this helps. And welcome on Dakka.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5127544.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5127544.page GMT General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness)

jaygonx wrote:
Hi everyone!

I'm about to start a Warhammer 40k army as it's something i've wanted to do for a long time but haven't had the chance to due to various reasons. I've just purchased the Dark Vengeance LE box set and i can't wait for it to come! I hope to start a DA army! My main question is if someone would be able to give me a heads up as to what direction to go in when considering purchasing brushes, glues, files and the like. As i've been roaming the forums it seems GW products aren't always the best choice, but as there's quite a few different brands i'm unsure of what to purchase.

With paints i'll be going for Vallejo/Citadel paints. Glues, files and sprue cutters i'll also be going with Citadel. I've seen a few videos in which people attach models to a longer base, such as the bottom of a Citadel paint jar, i presume this is to assist with the painting of the model to prevent any natural oils touching the model and to get a bit of leverage.

My main concern are the brushes. I won't be airbrushing as i don't have a designated area for it so i will be painting free hand. I've had a look and it seems like there's quite a bit of talk around W&N series 7 brushes, but there's quite a few different sizes so i'm unsure which ones to get and if they're worth the money (I'll be purchasing from the down under so it will be a bit expensive).

Anyway, thank you for taking the time to read my post and any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks guys!
Jaygonx

The windsor and newton brushes are exquisite though I would recommend getting something under them while you are learning as you may accidentally leave them in the jar and after a few cheap brushes you mess up you get the hang of it. As for brush size you are going to need a medium 2-3, I may be mistaken with numbers, for simple basecoating, a larger brush for tanks. A brush for dry brushing, usually a flat head in my experience, and brushes ranging from 0 - 000 for fine detail. If you can Miniwargaming is having a sale in regards to their brushes and they have a fantastic and well priced set for beginners.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5127552.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5127552.page GMT General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness)

Minus wrote:

Go for GW primer.

I disagree with this. The GW stuff is barely adequate, and expensive. If you have the dosh, suggest you look at Tamiya Fine Primer (either White or Grey). Or if you're a cheapskate like I am, just pick up any old can of automobile primer. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5127557.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5127557.page GMT Re:General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness) op if you are in Melbourne i can point you in the direction of a few good stores. If not well then you stiff outta luck.

Anyway.
Plastic Glue - Go with the Revall Contacta Professional that Minus suggested. It'll set you back maybe 5 or 10 bucks. But its really good stuff. The needle nose applicator is so goddamn handy.
Primer - I use Army Painter. Comes in 400ml cans for around 20 bucks and comes in a whopping range of colours.
Paints - Vallejo are a good all round choice. Dropper bottles are an added bonus. Cheaper then GW as well.
Brushes - I can't really comment on brushes due to the fact that i'm still using 2 GW brushes and a few $5 art store brushes. Every one raves about W&N though so they are probably a safe bet.

Also good luck and welcome to the hobby. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5127588.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5127588.page GMT General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness)

gohkm wrote:
The GW stuff is barely adequate, and expensive.

Depends on what. Their glue is bad and expensive. Their primers are good. I painted tons of models with these and I NEVER had any problem with them.
Plus they are quite easy to find.

And I disagree with that :

gohkm wrote:
Or if you're a cheapskate like I am, just pick up any old can of automobile primer.

Automobile primer are not designed for this use. Some will work perfectly fine, but not all of them. Is the risk or ruining a ful batch of miniatures worth 12.5 euros (15.75 dollars) ? I don't think so. Especially when you are a beginner, as the OP is. But the choice remains his. ^^]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5127595.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5127595.page GMT General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness)
You've got a better experience with the GW stuff than I have, then.

It is also true that automobile primer isn't really meant for miniatures, but all you need is a small spritz of the stuff. Saturating figs with any type of primer isn't a great idea to begin with.

But you're right - it's the OP's choice.

Edit:
Apologies to the OP for the threadjack.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5127625.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5127625.page GMT General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness) UK, but their primer is great, for example.

GW primer is, I understand, little more than white paint and not a true surface primer. And there are other true primers designed for miniatures available other than GW.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5127637.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5127637.page GMT General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, what is the difference between Vallejo Game and Vallejo Model?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5127669.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5127669.page GMT General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness)

Howard A Treesong wrote:
Some car primers are better than others. I've had some that are horrible, but the good quality stuff is good. Not sure if Halfords are a chain outside the UK, but their primer is great, for example.

GW primer is, I understand, little more than white paint and not a true surface primer. And there are other true primers designed for miniatures available other than GW.

I cannot remember the name but I use the spary auto primer also and have only ever had one issue. (didnt shake up can and more solid chunks of paint came out allover ragnar blackmanes face and ruined details) Luckily a quick run under the tap and a good dry fixed alot of the issue. the paint sitcks to them well though in my expeience. Only issue I have with the paintpot of gw primer is being sort of noobish myself not knowing how much primer to brush on to the models.

For plastic glue I like the model master stuff. really fine point and it holds amazingly. Although when it comes to brushes I just use what I have aquired over time from various craft stores and fairs.

For paints I really like the p3 paints because I feel their paint pots close and seal the best from most of the ones I've used.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5127684.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5127684.page GMT General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness)

jaygonx wrote:
Also, what is the difference between Vallejo Game and Vallejo Model?

I think one of them has a glossy finish. I'm not 100% though so don't quote me on it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5127710.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5127710.page GMT General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5127985.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5127985.page GMT Re:General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness) 40K a year ago

) informing you that GW and Citadel are poor quality, but I've always found that the products are decent quality, even if the price is slightly extortionate. Even so, if you are a beginner, I would recommend GW and Citadel products simply for their accessibility. I know from experience that when I started, I found it easier to just buy Citadel and GW as a start point, then as I become more experienced in painting use other brands that I found to be cheaper but just as good. Not sure if that's helpful but It worked for me.

So:

Paints: I stuck with Citadel simply because they aren't too expensive and there's a wide range. Also, if you get White Dwarf or read up a lot on painting techniques, you'll often find people cite Citadel paints to help beginners.

Primer: Again, I use Citadel's Chaos Black spray primer, but I would recommend finding an alternative. It's very costly for what it is (£9.50 in the UK) and wastes a lot when spraying, but I find it gives a good, smooth cover.

Glue: I'll agree with any of the above statements that Citadel glue is far too costly for what it is. Stick with Humbrol or Revell glues - just as good and much cheaper.

Brushes: I bought the full set of Citadel brushes which, whilst possibly not as good as other brushes the above posters have stated, I've always found that, provided I keep them clean and covered, have lasted an age and are very controllable.

Tools: I wouldn't bother with using citadel for general tools. Scalpels, sculpting tools, drills, dropper bottles etc. can all be found on Ebay for much cheaper prices. Most importantly, if you plan to use Greenstuff in the future, avoid GW. They sell 12g of Green stuff for £6.15 (approx $9.57 in AUD), whereas on Ebay there are 36" rolls of Kneadtite Greenstuff for £8.00 - No brainer which I chose

.

In conclusion, if your bamboozelled by the vast array of brands throwing supplies at you, just stick with Citadel, it's slightly expensive, but it'll set you off on the right foot. However, as you build up experience and knowledge, I would recommend switching away from Citadel, except maybe the paints, due to it's extortionate pricing.

Hope this helped, Warpig.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5128605.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5128605.page GMT General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5128613.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5128613.page GMT Re:General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness) I'm a relative newbie painting (4 months or so), and equipment turned out to be a big deal for me. Really upped my game a lot.

I use W&N Series 7 brushes - mainly a 0 and 2, sometimes a 000 for details (doesn't hold enough paint, though, and that's annoying). Get brush cleaner. I use Master's Brush Soap, and it works well. Don't use your W&N brushes for dry brushing.

Get some kind of magnifier, I use cheap 4x reading glasses from Amazon (3 for 10$ USD). Great for details and highlighting.

A wet palette really helps, especially painting armies. I bought one (its HUGE, check sizes if you buy one), but I have the stuff to make one.

Get good lighting. Reveal lightbulbs are good. I got some Ott lights on a sale. (Woot!)

Check what you thin with. Thinning metallics with water is bad, and I haven't liked water as a primary thinner. There are a lot of forumulas. I use Liquitex Airbrush Medium for thinning _most_ paints now. Great stuff. I'm going to experiment with the Vallejo Glaze Medium as soon as my package with it gets here.

I've used Rustoleum and Kyrlon primers. Both are good.

If you like a matte finish, Testor's dullcote is awesome. I had really bad luck with the Krylon Matte spray - left minis looking dusty.

For a pin vise, I got a Mini Micro Pin Vise and drill bits from Amazon for a good price, and it has multiple chucks and a good assortment (and extras of each) of bits. I also got a set of files from Amazon. They've been great.

For glue so far I've just used Zap-a-Gap, because I had a big bottle from paper modeling. Its worked well so far, although it dries much faster if you exhale warm air onto it. (No kidding.)

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5129642.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5129642.page GMT Re:General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness)

Snrub wrote:
Hey op if you are in Melbourne i can point you in the direction of a few good stores.

I'm also fairly new to the hobby and would appreciate if you could point me (and any other people living in Melbourne) towards some good stores.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5129908.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5129908.page GMT Re:General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness) gw glue is complete trash, do not use it. Testors plastic glue is what you want for plastics...as far as brushes, starting off with a citadel standard and fine detail brush will get you going for a decent price, after that you can move up to the professional brushes offerred by kolinsky and the like (once you've learned the ins and outs of proper brush care and can actually benefit from a higher quality brush)

Above all else though...seriously, stay away from citadel glue.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5129919.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5129919.page GMT General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5130071.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5130071.page GMT Re:General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness)

Mr Wolfie wrote:
I'm also fairly new to the hobby and would appreciate if you could point me (and any other people living in Melbourne) towards some good stores.

Righto.

Well you have Mind Games Melbourne.
Its address is 244 Swanston Street, Melbourne, 3000. Its a 5 minute walk from Melb Central Station and about a 10 minute walk from Flinders St Station.
The tabletop games section is on the upper floor while board games and books are on the ground floor. There are i think 3 guys up there who are all really friendly and helpful and are always down for a chat about almost anything.
They stock 40k, WHFB, along with Warmachine/Hordes and FoW. They do carry other stuff but i can't remember what its called. They also carry the full range of Citadel and most of the Vallejo paints. Not sure about Reaper paint though.
There is of course all your basic hobby tools (files, saws, knves, etc) as well as vaious modelling putties and forms of plasticard. Best of all is the great discout on their models.

There is also Victorian Hobby Centre.
1/21 Swanston St Melbourne VIC 3000. Its between the Commonwealth Bank and KFC. It can be easy to miss as it doesn't really have a store front as such. Its just a door with a sign that leads to a set of staris.
They deal more in Model trains and planes, etc but they have the entire range of Vallejo paints and a huge selection of model terrain and modelling products. If you like making your own terrain make sure you visit this store at some point. I've only been here a few times but the old guy behind the jump is also friendly and helpful.

Good Games may also be worth a visit.
Level 1, 365 Lonsdale Street, Melbourne VIC 3000. They sell 40k/Fantasy stuff and they have tables you can play on however they are primarly a TCG store and when ever i've been in there to see if anyone wants a game of 40k no one has seemed interested. YMMV with this store.

As it happens there is a Deans Arts right next door to the Good Games. All kinds of paint related things there. Not particually hobby related but you can probably get your hands on some decent brushes here as well as a wet pallete. Might be worth checking out if you are in the area.

There is also a GW in the city. It moves around a lot though. Last i heard it was on Little Collin St. Dunno if its moved again or not.

There is one other store i know but for the life of me i can't think of it. I'll post it when i remember.

dominiquekee wrote:
I just realised this thread is many months old... hey, jaygonx, how is it going? Any models to show?

This thread is 3 days old! What crack are you smoking?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5132776.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5132776.page GMT General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness)

Sorry for the confusion!!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5132796.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5132796.page GMT General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5132885.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5132885.page GMT General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can't stress enough how you shouldn't buy those last three things from GW. Basically any modeling supply. For painting it doesn't really matter. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5132894.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5132894.page GMT General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness)

Snrub wrote:
Which still doesn't make sense as he started this thread on the same day he joined. Both the thread and the thread posters account are only 3 days old.

I'm assuming he was looking at Vord's join date.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5132907.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5132907.page GMT General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5132936.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5132936.page GMT General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5132996.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5132996.page GMT General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness)

Snrub wrote:
We can get army painter in Oz and now that you mention their basic tool set is probably well worth getting. I made the mistake of buying the Citadel Tool Set a few years back. $180 wasted on crap.

Yeah I have discovered, Army Painter is your friend in all things hobby.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5133054.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5133054.page GMT Re:General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness)

Snrub wrote:

Mr Wolfie wrote:
I'm also fairly new to the hobby and would appreciate if you could point me (and any other people living in Melbourne) towards some good stores.

Thanks for that, I'll have to check them out]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5133405.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5133405.page GMT General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5133655.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5133655.page GMT General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness)
-_-']]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5136312.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5136312.page GMT Re:General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness) GW are ok, the best that I've used are the Da vinci maestro for miniaturists I use size 4, 2, 0 and triple 0 for the most fine details but these are expensive. GW I use the basecoating brush, the standard brush, the detail and fine detial.

I use generic superglue for most of my gluing but plastic glue is a more permanent bond for plastic models.

for cutting try to find a self-healing cutting board so that you can cut into it and not your fingers and use x-acto blades, be extra carefull is easy to cut yourself and even more with dull blades, Use always a sharp one. I don't usually use files but they may come in handy when you have to get rid of a large mold line or some costumization or unless you work with metal they are a must-have.

I personally like games workshop citadel paints, they're a bit overpriced but IMHO they are made for most of the miniatures you want to paint and the color triads are generally well designed, I like the consistency and I think they did a good job on the new range. I used Vallejo once and they are fine but I had trouble finding the right collor mostly because I can't get vallejo personally and getting the color right from the internet is hard.

For primer Rustoleum automotive grey primer.. is almost all I use it works wonderfully but don't know if its an international brand.

You can check out my channel in the link below for tutorials if you like. I don't have much dark angels Only one tutorial. but generally youtube can help you learn how to paint. Good luck

Alan]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5136476.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5136476.page GMT General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5190665.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5190665.page GMT General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness) I hate small brushes. Paint dries to fast on small brushes and you need to pick paint too often.
To be honest, even (0) is too small for me. I use size (4) for most of my work, and size (2) for details. No kidding.

The shape of the point is most important than the size of the brush. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5190834.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5190834.page GMT General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness)
I would also recommend having a look at synthetic brushes. They don't tend to range quite as small as natural brushes, but they don't wear out or loose their shape either, and since the bristles don't draw moisture out of the paint, I think they also allow paint to flow off the brush slightly better.

I still use natural brushes for very fine work, but for everything else I like synthetic.

For paint... I would not buy GW because it is way overpriced. I like Coat d'arms, you get a much bigger pot for less money. I heard the P3 range was good as it is supposed to have liquid pigment, but I couldn't really tell the difference between it and ordinary Coat d'arms. However Beasthide is one of my favourites from P3. You are always going to need a brown, and this one is just perfect for everything from belts and straps to shading flesh, and it covers like black. Love it. Vellejo is okay, I like the pots, but the paints seem to separate a lot... needs a lot of shaking. Coat d'arms is the winner for me. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5191019.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5191019.page GMT Re:General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5191069.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5191069.page GMT General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness)
If you apply too little, it becomes frail and parts chip off with just a touch after a few months, and if you apply too much it crystalises after a few months.... and snaps off.

Smacks's Tamiya plastic cement is fantastic once you get to terms with it, and Loctite Super Attak glue will hold your models in one piece through a tornado. The downside of Loctite is that it dries sometimes instantaneously.

That means you have to set that arm in the exact position you want it from the beginning, because if it does decide to do one of those snap-on dries, that's where the arm is gonna stay, and you'll have better luck sheering through the plastic than the glue.

That said, me and the people I play with are followers of Loctite.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5191419.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5191419.page GMT General painting question (Brace yourself for the noobness)

dominiquekee wrote:
Does it make sense that I prefer a careful hand with a larger brush ('0') over a tiny brush ('000') just for the fact that paint flows better in the 0 brush?

Same. I do the majority of my work with a #2 flat brush.

Regarding the OP, I use mostly generic primers, glues, and tools. Paints are mostly Vallejo or Citadel.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5191472.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/497618/5191472.page GMT