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HQ
Chaos Lord w/PF, Burning Brand, MoN
Epidemius

Troops
9 Plague Marines (Lord goes here)
- 1 MG, 1 PG
- Rhino with Dirge Caster

10 Plague Marines
- 2 PGs
- Rhino with Dirge Caster

10 Plague Marines
- 2 PGs
- Rhino

10 Plague Marines
- 2 PGs
- Rhino

5 Plague Bearers

Heavy Support
5 Havocs w/4 Autocannons and MoN

5 Havocs w/4 Autocannons and MoN

Fast Attack
4 Chaos Spawn w/MoN

Fortification
Bastion with Comm Relay


Thoughts Thus Far
General Strategy
The general strategy with this list is mid-board control with the plague marines. On turn one, they move up to center board and deploy 40 guys. Since they can move 18" in one turn, its a safe bet they can get to mid-board.

The havocs are long ranged support. In a bastion they are extremely durable, and have improved LoS. The other goal of the havocs is they make it difficult for the opponent to assign target priority. Do they spend their long range shots at the havocs on top the bastion, or the PMs in mid-field.

The tally list is extremely useful against some armies -- such as blob guard. When facing an opponent who has no way to negate the tally via long ranged attacks or deep strikes, its an auto-win once the tally hits 15.


Tactics
The rhinos then act as blockers to restrict enemy movement, or hang out for a rapid deployment if needed. If I bring a land raider its goal is to start shooting after deployment.

The land raider also acts as a mobile bunker if I squad is reduced to just one man, and I want to deny the KP.

I have found PMs work best when played like space wolves. You move up and double tap your bolters under the expectation that your going to be assaulted. When you are, the blight gernades remove the assault advantage for most armies.


Anti-Air
The Quad-Gun is not perfect anti-air, but it helps when dealing with a small amount of anti-air. It might take down one or two flyers before its destroyed.

Havocs can also make a good anti-air force. Being able to deliver 8 autocannon shots per squad means that on average at least one will hit. While those are not awesome odds, they are better than nothing.

The final anti-air is a land raider. While its not perfect, twin-linked weapons have a bit under 1/3 chance of hitting. This means that the dual TL LCs have about a 50% of hitting a flying target.


Anti-Daemon
The bastion is a liability when dealing with flamers/screamers.

My plan for flamers is to deploy 2 PMs and 1 havoc squad in a blob. Around the blob spread out the rhinos to block deep striking. Once the deep striking has occured, use a dirge caster to block overwatch and assault flamers.

Screamers are less effective vs PMs due to the T5. That, combined with the ability to FNP and poisoned weapons make screamers less of a threat.


Ponderings
I've been strongly considering dropping the bastion and using an aegis defence line. PMs resiliance goes through the roof when standing behind an ADL. If their being shot at within 8" behind the ADL, they get stealth for a 3+ cover save.

My biggest worry with that is the loss of shooting angle. I played an ork player this week who put his ADL in middle of the board so I was always shooting over it at his boys until I climbed over it. A bastion full of havocs with have sorted that right out.


I know that attrition lists work best with 50+ MEQ. I tried running 50 PMs and found they started to have footprint issues. PMs have an effective range of 24", and when your trying to stick 50 on the board, some of them can't effect the target.

Oddly enough I found this same problem when running C:SM bike armies. The solution is to add long range support -- havocs fill this role naturally.


I have tried havoc launchers to good success in the past, but I'm not totally sold on them. 12 points for a STR 5 TL blast can be really good, but good players don't let you hit more than 2-3 targets with them. They are situational, but 4 of them is also only 48 points....


In regards to the tallyman, I've found it to be either awesome or useless. Hes only 185 points, so in a 2k list even being useless is not that big of a loss. When hes a hard counter to a list, then its pretty much auto-win. An example of this would be hoard lists. If I face a hoard ork/IG/Nid list without a solution to the tallyman my PMs will be ignoring armor and having a 3+ FNP by turn 3 at the latest.

The problem is that as I play better and better lists, they will have a solution for the tallyman. It seems like something that might be great for 2/3 of the first day games, but then just act as a hinderance once I get bracketed.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/498021/5133764.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/498021/5133764.page GMT
As long as you only need to control mid table you will be fine although this doesn't put you in a great position for the home objective mission.

I'm not sure what the Sorcerer is doing for you in the list?

1 solo Landraider also concerns me, with only a few flamers that is a big point sync being wrecked fairly easily and we all know you will see daemons especially if you win the initial games.

With the amount of plague marines you are running it is totally fitting to run Epi in your list.
But you need to ensure his arrival turn 1-2 to gain the benefits.
You also need to ensure his protection.

With all of the PM's do you really need to be concerned with flyer control, how much damage could a few flyers really do to you?

I'd probably consider dropping the Sorcerer for more PM's and max out the Plague bearers as much as possible to aid Epi's survival chances.
I'd also consider dropping the Quad Gun, It's pretty poor against AV 12 flyers, only really useful against Crons in my experience. You could replace that with a Comms Relay to get Epi down on the games you don't get your preffered wave.

Aegis indeed could be a better option over the Bastion.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/498021/5133888.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/498021/5133888.page GMT
I found the sorc to be pretty decent but not great. Hes cheap at 110 points. I would consider dropping him for something else. If I drop him and the land raider, I can free up about 270 points. (I need to replace a rhino and PM).

I think Ill also bring the burning brand. That's a good way to get a fast increase on the tally.

I initially tried bringing 5 squads of PMs, and I found myself getting into these kind of situations a lot. One squad is hanging back due to the footprint of the squads. That's why I am moving some out for havocs.


Good call on the comms relay. That will ensure Epi is never down past turn 2.
I also like the idea of sticking him in a bastion. That can really put a cramp on my opponents game plan.


I've played this list a few times, and I've yet to find bringing more than 5 PMs really worth it. I've found that people either have what it takes to kill the tallyman or they don't. The extra bodes have not been helpful. I'm leary to bring his crew up past 7.
This is also because PMs are very killy. I want to keep as many points open for doing killing.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/498021/5133981.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/498021/5133981.page GMT
The only potential wasted points I can see are the Quad Gun and the Sorcerer.

Other things to consider are do all of the plague marine units need a rhino if you are only planning on coverering mid table?

Could ditching some or all of the Rhinos be a viable option to buy you something fast like Spawn or deep strikey like Oblits for contesting backfield?

Is your lord best placed in a PM squad?
Would he be better attached to some Oblits or on a bike with some Spawn?

I understand you are using the Rhino's for spoeed and heck, they are your only means of getting backfield if you needed too, I understand you are also using these for a buffer defense against deamon flamers also.

But potetnially the same results could be achieved through some throw away cultists.

Sorry if I'm giving you lots to think about
And great pictures by the way, motivated me to go home tonight and start preping some zombies.



]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/498021/5134017.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/498021/5134017.page GMT
Speaking of that I would feel more comfortable with 7 men in your havoc squads. 5 just leaves you too close and killing your high power autocannons too quickly.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/498021/5134140.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/498021/5134140.page GMT
That's a good point DAaddict. Going to 5 squads and keeping the same number of total PMs would cost me an extra rhino in cost, and give me more special weapons. Ill play with the numbers and see what I can do.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/498021/5134177.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/498021/5134177.page GMT