http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/93.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net
grey seer 530
screaming bell
power scroll
skalm
dispell scroll

warlock 15


Warlock 115
lvl 1
condenser
doomrocket

chieftain 122
BSB
stormbanner
shield

38 clanrats 171
shield

55 slaves mus 112

50 slaves mus 102

25 slaves mus 52

25 slaves mus 52

50 slaves mus 102


ratdart 23




8 Gutter runners poison and sling 126

8 Gutter runners 144

7 Gutter runners 144





HPA 250

HPA 250

WLP 90]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/499973/5167061.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/499973/5167061.page GMT OP list because you can't win on your own?

Absolutely pathetic. It's people like you that ruin the hobby.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/499973/5171620.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/499973/5171620.page GMT
The biggest problem you're going to face is that with so many large slave units, you're going to be hard pressed to keep them in range of your general. Panic tests against the slaves are going to be a serious problem. It's a good list, but it's still not overpowered. Lots of bodies is definitely good, but I'd prefer another big unit of clanrats or stormvermin in place of some slaves.

The hobby is never ruined by power-list makers. Much in the way the auto is never frowned upon for having more horsepower or going faster, a list which is possible of being ultimately competitive is as much a part of the hobby as forming a list that is completely un-competitive but fluffy as hell. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/499973/5171785.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/499973/5171785.page GMT OP and their friends usually play fluffy armies and wanted to try a hard-core game for fun. Or maybe they made the list, not to play, but to form a better idea of what to expect from competitive Skaven lists. Or maybe they and their friends don't have fun unless they're trying to find the sweet spots in the mathematics of the game, because they're more numerically-based in their pursuits than literary.
My point is, I'm sure the OP has a reason beyond being a horrible monster of a person. People have reasons for their actions, man. The end.

@MegaMan111: the list is well on its way to being considered a power-list, but here are my two Warptokens:

- your Seer is probably better off on-foot. He's less of a target for cannons and costs 200pts less.
Also, he's illegal. You can't have two Arcane items.

- I assume that 15pt Warlock is for making some Slaves Ld8? If so, I'd strongly suggest you drop him. A savy opponent will never never direct any attacks at the guy, so you can't shoot into those combats.

- your BSB is going to end up very dead, very fast. If I had to choose between my BSB's survival and the Stormbanner, I'd pick the prior every time, hands-down. A 4+ Ward is usually my aim; that re-roll is just so incredibly useful as to make everything else he does irrelevant.

- I'm guessing the Seer and the BSB will end up with those Clanrats? (1) It's a small unit for a Bell and (2) it's a small unit to contain all of your staying power. I'd rather see two units of 20 (assuming no Bell), or a bunker of 10 Stormvermin, if you must. It is a very risky tactic, though.
And why don't they have any command? It's cheap and extremely useful; especially the Musician.

- three units of 50 Slaves is very competitive. Why one unit with 5 extra, though?
And the units of 25? If you want re-directors, units of 20 are usually the way to go. I'd also consider dropping it all down to three units of 50, then taking an extra Rat Dart and maybe a 3-base Rat Swarm or something similar.

- ...it looks like you included the Gutter Runner's upgrades in their cost, but then only mentioned it in one entry, and then swapped the number of models in that entry with one of the others?
Either way, if you want to go all-out on some 'Runners, be my guest. But I do think they're a very specialized unit, so I find 400pts spent on them to be more than too much. Gutter Runners are very good, so people want lots of them. I think this is faulty logic; you don't need a ton of them, because the work they're so good at usually comes in very small amounts, if it comes at all.
Also, they are usually best fielded in units of 5-6 or 9, from my experience.

- as said above, two Cannons is the standard choice, with one Abomination. The Cannons are just capable of such profound destruction for criminally few points. The A-bomb does more damage, but not point-for-point.

So in closing, make your Seer legal, drop the Bell, protect your BSB, get another character bunker, drop some slaves, maybe drop some Gutter Runners, drop an A-bomb, pick up a second Cannon, and you're looking at a real mean list.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/499973/5174155.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/499973/5174155.page GMT Anyway;
ok guys, really thanks.

So whats the typicall number for gutter runners. 2 squads with like 6 in each?
Also if I swap a-bomb with WLC It gives me ton of points left. I guess Doomwheel isn´t the best choice so I will leave it for now or?
Is it good to have plaguemonks or are they to squishy?
Or is it better to have stormvermin to reach my minimum core with banner.
Is Weapon teams good? I mean are they for the fun or for the power gaming?

Cheers]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/499973/5177881.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/499973/5177881.page GMT
The extra points from going dual cannon, single abom, would be best spent on some better bodies or weapons teams. You have a ton of slaves, and I have no issue with that, but I think you'd do well to axe the smaller slave groups, and create another large clanrat group. If not, a unit of stormvermin, and consider giving them the armor piercing banner to make a semi-decent hammer unit.

Plague monks are a bit squishy in that they have no armor save, but their fairly resilient being T4. Standard shooting won't have a terribly large impact on them, and you should be using them to dive into the flanks of your enemies. Even running them 5 wide without a champion, you're looking at 20 attacks from 10 models. Not too shabby for adding to combat resolutions, just don't charge them face first into anything with staying power.

Weapons teams CAN be good, but some are better than others. Poisoned wind mortars offer the greatest potential, but are the most expensive and can miss entirely. Ratling guns generally give the best results as long as you aren't greedy with the dice rolls; I don't think I have ever rolled the dice more than 3 times, and 2 is usually enough. Warpfire throwers are incredibly useful as well, but do require careful tactics to make the best out of them. I'd avoid the other weapons teams entirely, as I just haven't found them to be terribly effective.

The bottom line when it comes to skaven is that you'll find your large blobs of rats can sit there and take a beating without flinching, but do only a little damage in return; a battle of attrition. The killing power of your army will come from magic, weapons teams, and war machines. So far in your list, your cannons, abom, warlock engineer wizard, and grey seer are your damage dealers. All of the other units are simply underwhelming in terms of killing power in combat. That isn't a bad thing necessarily, but don't be under the impression that your big blob of 50 slaves will ever kill more than a couple models in each round of combat against even basic infantry, while suffering many, many more casualties in return.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/499973/5182278.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/499973/5182278.page GMT
I'll add that, once you field 10+ Gutter Runners, there's no reason to run them all in one big group (10 panic after 3 casualties, 5 panic after 2). Being able to choose multiple targets and offering more to your opponent is great.

Stormvermin are, point-for-point, less durable than Plague Monks, and they're both less durable than Clanrats. Plague Monks are tougher and hit about as hard as Stormvermin, with the downside that they're a Frenzied Special unit. They have a narrower ideal target range as well.

The Skaven book tells us to consider any extra wounds caused by our Weapon Teams to be a bonus, rather than rely on them. I'll agree.
The Warpfire Thrower is by far the most potentially devastating, followed by the Mortar. The Ratling Gun is the most reliable and the cheapest. The Doomflayer is quite literally worthless in 8th.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/499973/5182924.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/499973/5182924.page GMT