<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Join my quest for chaos (space marines)"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/17.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Join my quest for chaos (space marines)
I was very excited a few months ago with the possible release of the new chaos space marine codex. I thought that it would offer a host of new list and game-play possibilities over the previous codex that was very bland and had only a few truly competitive choices. I wanted to have difficult choices to make because there were so many good units vying for FOC spots. However, when the codex came out, I sat down, looked at the book and the first thought that I had was "This is almost the exact same codex just differently priced."

After a few months of ignoring the codex I have finally decided that I want to find a good, competitive list which still took into account some of my self imposed restrictions. I would like to have a 1750 list fleshed out before the next TSHFT event in Seattle in May. Hopefully I can optimize a list, refine a play style and get better as a general in the process. Helping me out will be seaphoenix with multiple proxy armies and perhaps his own tyranid list.

So to start things off, some thoughts on my personal biases and what units I think are good.

I am not a fan of Nurgle. I don't know if it's because of my work in the healthcare research or a dislike of being sick, but I have tried to stay away from Nurgle units. I am starting to cave on that a little as the bump in toughness is just too good to pass up with marks, but if I can make a good list sans Nurgle I would be very happy. I also don't like zombies so there's no way I will a Typhus list. Most other things I am willing to consider.

With my green-bias acknowledged, here are things that have yet to fail me in games. Heldrakes and obliterators. I think these are the no-brainer choices in the codex. So my core units are going to be two heldrakes and two units of 2 obliterators.

What I am having the most trouble with is troops. The lack of fearless or ATSKNF on the chaos marines makes me not want to take them as the only way to make them fearless is through icons and those can be sniped out and make the unit expensive. Cult troops are fearless, but can't take standard weaponry and are expensive. Cultists are crappy guardmen who can't do anything, but die and the zombies are so superior at dying slowly and taking up space that it's hard to think about this option with my zombie dislike.

So with all that said, onto the lists. The list I will play is the boring first one. seaphoenix will play the list after it. As a bit of a mind-feth, I will be playing Iron Warrior models in a list that is not particularly siege like while my opponent will be proxying a much more Iron Warrior like list.

List 1

HQ

Terminator lord
sigil of corruption
combi-melta

Terminator Lord
Sigil of Corruption
Brand of Skalathraax

TROOPS
3x 10 chaos space marines
2x plasma gun
rhino

10 chaos space marines
2x melta guns
rhino

HEAVY

2x 2 obliterators
mark of nurgle

FAST ATTACK

heldrake
bale flamer

heldrake
hades autocannon

List 2

HQ

Terminator Lord
mark of slaanesh
murder sword

warpsmith
sigil corruption


TROOPS
34 cultists

24 cultists

2x noise marines
sonic blasters
blast master
(one squad in dirge caster rhino)

ELITES

2x mutilators

hell brute
plasma cannon
missile launcher

HEAVY

vindicator

las-predator

7 havocs
4x missile launchers

FAST ATTACK

heldrake
bale flamer

FORTIFICATIONS

Aegis defense
Quad gun

The goal is to have picture up tomorrow and hopefully learn about what works and what does not work with chaos.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/504517/5238047.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/504517/5238047.page GMT Re:Join my quest for chaos (space marines)
My long term background is in eldar, so the first thing that I think of in games is every unit has it's specific job. Reading through the codex it seems like there are sooooo many options. However when you start putting them together it eats away your points and instead of a 1750 point list, I end up with somewhere around 2000. So since my buddy likes the iron warriors and has an army painted like them, I thought I would try an army build that would semi-fluffy fit that, also experimenting with a mix of cultists and elite troops. Some basic premise to the army:

Terminator lord goes with the mutilators. He has a very specific job to do. He deep strikes, the mutilators soak the torrent of fire they take. Then the lord goes in and murders enemy hq. Anything after that is gravy.
Warpsmith will sit with the tanks and helbrute. He heals them as needed, runs the quad gun if I need to. He can attach to cultist to make them ld 10, to the noise marines to give him fearless, or just hang out with the havocs as an ablative 2+ wound.
Rhino noise marines are a mobile flamer hopefully coming in turn two or three, and skipping along to far off objectives. The blast master noisy guys sit in ruin or behind the aegis shooting lots of ammo.
Cultists are blobs to distract or bubble wrap (like termagents.)

Mutilators are simply ablative wounds for the lord, and or bonus attacks later.
Helbrute shoots things from far away behind the aegis line.
Heldrake burns marines.
Predator targets heavy tanks, terminators, then fliers.
Vindicator shoots anything that comes close.

HQ

Terminator Lord
mark of slaanesh
murder sword

warpsmith


TROOPS
30 cultists

26 cultists

5 noise marines
sonic blasters
blast master

5 noise marines
bolters
doom siren
in a rhino

ELITES

2x mutilators

hell brute
plasma cannon
missile launcher

HEAVY

vindicator

las-predator

7 havocs
4x missile launchers

FAST ATTACK

heldrake
bale flamer

FORTIFICATIONS

Aegis defense
Quad gun ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/504517/5238894.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/504517/5238894.page GMT Join my quest for chaos (space marines) GL lookign forward to the report]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/504517/5240046.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/504517/5240046.page GMT Re:Join my quest for chaos (space marines) Deployment: Dawn of War
Objectives: Five
Mission parameters: We're trying to play in a TSHFT style of missions where victory is determined by primary objectives only. Secondary objectives just get you battle points.
Warlord traits: seaphoenix - move through cover, stealth in ruins
bogalubov - re-roll reserves
Night-fighting: No
First turn: bogalubov




seaphoenix gets to place objectives first and he puts two behind his defense line an one behind a large ruin in his board half. I place mine in the center ruin on my board half and one closer to the middle. I figure that I need to get to his side of the board to make the majority of the weapons that the chaos marines carry useful so I might as well put the objectives there.



I set up my 4 rhinos full of marines in the center of the board with one unit of oblits with my non-hq lord in the central ruin. The hq-oblit unit and heldrakes are in reserve. The plan is to drive the rhinos 12 inches and then fire off smoke. Hopefully this allows me to advance far enough to make the transports useful and the smoke hopefully manages to soak up some firepower so it's not directed at the marines that crawl out of the broken rhinos. Then together with my reserves that come turn 2 I can bring some serious dakka to his side.

seaphoenix places one blob of cultists behind his defense line with the warpsmith attached in front of the vindicator (leman russ), predator (chimera) and the helbrute with plasma/missile launcher. The havocs are behind them ready to take control of the quad gun. A unit of noise marines with the blast master are behind the big ruin. Doom siren noise marines in the rhino are in reserve with another blob of cultists, the heldrake and the mutilators with the lord.

TURN 1


seaphoenix rolls to seize...and he does. Crap. In movement the noise marines scale the big ruin while the havocs grab the quad gun. His first round of shooting knocks out one rhino while stunning another one. I move up my two functional rhinos up the middle towards the objective there. My obliterator shooting at the predator does nothing.

TURN 2


seaphoenix has all his reserves come in this turn. The mutilators land next to the exploded rhino. The cultist blob runs from the board edge to control the objective there. The vindicator shuffles around to get a shot at my rhinos in the center. The heldrake vector strikes one rhino and explodes it. The mutilator lord In the shooting phase The predator explodes the stunned rhino and all but one marine are killed by a blast master shot from the noise marines on top of the ruins. The survivor decides to hang out. The heldrake roasts part of a squad whose rhino was wrecked on the first turn. The vindicator kills one or two marines from the rhino exploded by the heldrake. The helbrute kills one obliterator.



In my half of the turn both drakes come in and so does my lord. The heldrakes vector strike the enemy heldrake but only manage to take one hull point off. My lord-obliterators land within multi-melta range of the vindicator and ensure that my lord does not get a date with the murder sword that is now across the table from him. With a chance to change my fortune I shoot the brand and multi-meltas at the vindicator with the brand hitting 4 havocs a few cultists. The multi-meltas hit and both roll a 3 for penetration with two dice. Doh. The brand kills one cultist. That was a colossal whif. I was expecting to get two pens which he would save with a cover save, but this is even more depressing. Now the lord and his obliterator buddies will eat a vindicator pie plate. The hades autocannon on one drake stuns the enemy drake, but does not bring it down. The other drake finally does something and kills enough havocs to cause a leadership check which they fail due to the death of their champion. Other shooting sees one mutilator be brought low with a melta shot.

TURN 3



While being stunned the heldrake flies off the board. The big blob of cultists shuffles around to get more pistols into range on my lord with his obliterators. The lord with the surviving mutilator moves into charge range of a remnant of a melta squad. The noise marine rhino drives up field. In shooting the vindicator scatters and only hits one model in the lord/obliterator squad. Being instant death to all involved I try to pass off the wound to an obliterator. I roll a one so the lord has to take his 4++ and for once I get lucky and pass. The squad does not escape unharmed though as the hell brute kills one obliterator. All the cultist shooting does nothing. In the charge phase the mutilator and lord charge the marine squad and kill all of them before they swing thanks to the murder sword being a daemon weapon. All in all things did not go too awfully for me.

In my half of the turn I move up my HQ-obliterators to flame and charge the cultists. The bale flamer drake flies over to the noise marines on the ruins while the other one flies off the board while vector strike wrecking a noise marine rhino. The lone functional rhino drives up towards the defense line while my lord-obliterator move up to shoot and charge the enemy warlord and mutilator. In shooting I kill 10 cultists with flamers, the heldrake kills 4 out of 5 noise marines including the blast master and one mutilator is killed by obliterator melta. My lord of course whifs on his combi-melta shot and now I need to decide if I want to charge his warlord while being down a wound with the lord. In assault I make it into combat with the cultists-warpsmith unit with my HQ. I decide to gamble and charge his HQ with my second lord hoping that my 4++ would be better than his 5++. The warpsmith and my HQ fight a power axe duel (although now that I think about it, the warpsmith was about a foot away from the fight so I'm not sure if that challenge was possible that turn) with each taking a wound. The obliterator kills one cultist and takes no wounds (this was another error, seaphoenix forgot that all his cultists had a pistol-cc weapon so he only attacked me with half of possible attacks). In the other duel, my lord took two wounds off seaphoenix's HQ while taking one wound back.

TURN 4



The damaged heldrake comes back on the board and again manages to knock out my rhino with one pass. The occupants try to pile out of range from the vindicator. The noise marines hopped over their rhino with no casualties in charge and doom siren range of the squad that just got out of their smoking rhino. The survivor of the noise marine squad jumped off the ruin and ran toward the aegis line. In the shooting phase the heldrake killed the whole squad cowering in the crater of their rhino. The vindicator and noise marine doom siren whittled down the newly disembarked squad. Not much else happened, but now I am down to a 5 marines spread across 2 squads, going to be pretty tough to hold any objectives now. In assault, the doom siren noise marines make into a fight with my chaos marine squad. This fight would continue until turn 6 when the noise marines finally finished off the regular marines. The warp smith and my HQ lord killed each other at the same time. The obliterator won combat against the cultists and caused them to flee. They managed to stay on the table by a millimeter. In the fight between seaphoenix's HQ and my second lord, seaphoenix decided to use the murder sword at initiative 5 figuring that he could do enough wounds that I would roll a 1 for armor saves from at least one before my lord got to swing his axe. He managed to put 1 wound on my lord which I saved (with a 2 I think). In return I put him down with a power axe and get nothing on boon table.

At the bottom of turn 4 my hades hell drake came in, unfortunately it was out of vector strike range of the enemy heldrake so I would be forced to try to shoot it down with the autocannon. It never got the chance though as the drake was blown out of the sky by quad gun fire which was firing on auto that turn. I did not make a single invulnerable save with the drakes all game. With my other heldrake being on the other side of the board and not being able to turn easily I would have no recourse against his baleflamer next turn. Not much happened in the shooting phase. In assault the noise marine-chaos marine slap fight continued with no wounds on either side. The obliterator assaulted the hell brute (due to two shooting weapons the hell brute attacks would not be AP2) and nothing happened.

TURN 5-6

I will wrap up it up at this point. seaphoenix managed to kill all my troops and my second hq squad over the next two turns. At the end of the game the only things alive for me was a one heldrake and an obliterator locked in combat with a helbrute. Seaphoenix had 3 objectives and won 2-1 on destroying heavies. It was a total ass whipping.

Lessons learned: This game went down hill for me very quickly after seaphoenix got the majority of the objectives meaning that he did not have to go to my side of the board and I had to run into his guns to contest his objectives. This was worsened by the fact that he seized initiative and prevented me from pushing my marines up the board together. This made his target priority much easier and ensured that I did not have the weight of bodies to get to the other side. I think if I was smarter the more conservative strategy that might have worked better would have been to camp in my deployment zone out of range of his guns and sight with my two objectives. Then pop out with obliterators to shoot lascannons at his heavy support choices. Then try to use my heldrakes to kill his troops and perhaps go after the heavies. I could have conceivably tied him if I killed all 3 heavy supports from his side without losing any on my side. There was no way he would venture towards my side of the board so if I got lucky and didn't lose any oblits it could have worked.

The issue I have right now is that I spend too many points (800+) on my troops and they can't do anything outside of 24 inches. Their transports are necessary because outside of them they get bale flamed, tesla-ed or shot with other things that kill them pretty efficiently. Plus if I lose 3 in a turn they might break. So I have 800 points in things that don't do anything for a few turns and then the rest are in deep strike/reserve so they don't affect the game on the first turn either. Perhaps a defense line, cultist as troops approach is the way to go if I'm going to have useless troops.

This game once again shows that this is the shooting edition and you better not bring a bolter to bale flamer fight.








]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/504517/5241443.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/504517/5241443.page GMT Join my quest for chaos (space marines)
One error you made though, the Murder Sword isn't a daemon weapon, just a regular power sword until you get in to B2B with the chosen character.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/504517/5242215.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/504517/5242215.page GMT Join my quest for chaos (space marines)
 Sheokronath wrote:
Fun report, easy to follow and interesting. Any battle with Noise marines is one I'm interested in!

One error you made though, the Murder Sword isn't a daemon weapon, just a regular power sword until you get in to B2B with the chosen character.


Thanks for the compliment and the the Murder Sword over sight. I'm starting to think that noise marines with blast masters might be a good way to go with troops.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/504517/5242490.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/504517/5242490.page GMT Join my quest for chaos (space marines)
bogalubov wrote:
 Sheokronath wrote:
Fun report, easy to follow and interesting. Any battle with Noise marines is one I'm interested in!

One error you made though, the Murder Sword isn't a daemon weapon, just a regular power sword until you get in to B2B with the chosen character.


Thanks for the compliment and the the Murder Sword over sight. I'm starting to think that noise marines with blast masters might be a good way to go with troops.


Most definitely, Blastmasters make make MEQs sweat, especially since the FAQ. I keep a squad with blastmasters manning a quad gun behind an aegis while the rest of them run up with CWWs and the Feel No Sobriety banners, expensive but it's priceless when it comes together.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/504517/5242518.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/504517/5242518.page GMT Re:Join my quest for chaos (space marines)
Thoughts from my perspective.
Chaos Rhinos: Really rely on getting that first turn, they just seem way to fragile in this edition. I liked the idea behind the use I made of one, bringing it in from reserves, and just moving really quickly. Could have moved the extra 6 inches during the shooting phase instead of attempting useless pot shots. If I had done so I could have moved it during just the movement phase and fires away at the chaos marines from within, assuming it survived. (alternatively could have popped smoke.) I think I charged the turn after it was destroyed as well, which is not allowed now, since it counts as disembarking.
Warp smith: Well he didn't get a chance to shine since none of my vehicles were damaged. I should have attached him to the havocs instead of the cultists, both for his higher save, and for his higher leadership. Also, it would have been worth it to invest in an invul save for him I believe. Still very tough to use, but I think it's possible.
Mutilators and lord: I believe this did follow his purpose, however I should have marked the guy who was out, as I could assure myself of landing near by. Marking the guy still in reserves gave a chance that he could just appear across the board (as he did.) Also, worth it to invest the points for a better invul perhaps. Mutilators did do what I wanted them to do, however it is an expensive way to do it. Re-writing the list I would take that portion out of it, either deep strike him with chaos marines, or not at all. Instead place him back with the rest of the gun line and in a squad. Like with the havocs.

I really think this army would have a difficult time getting to the other side of the field if more objectives had been over there. The ability to just sit back and wait for my opponent to come to me allowed what was good in the list to shine.

Noise marines are amazing. I don't know if I would do the whole 20 men with four blast masters, because that just seems like overkill. 5 man squads though with the blasters and one blast master, well worth it. I might prefer to take lucius to open the noise marines, ad him into the rhino with the cc group. Cheaper then the whole termi lord guy, and just beef up the aspiring champion in the squad as well.

Havocs: Worth it to link a leader with them. I think having the two ablative wounds was a good idea, however, they needed the greater leadership of an hq unit I think.

Predator and Vindicator are a steal for the points, and that av 13 is much less fragile then the rhinos.
Helbrute. Not a good shooting only platform. If there were other options aside from the missile launcher for the second gun, then yes, but I don't think they are as good with only one good gun and a close combat option. Might try one in a close combat setting next and see if that's a lot better. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/504517/5244837.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/504517/5244837.page GMT Re:Join my quest for chaos (space marines)
 seapheonix wrote:
Very well written up my friend.

Thoughts from my perspective.
Chaos Rhinos: Really rely on getting that first turn, they just seem way to fragile in this edition. I liked the idea behind the use I made of one, bringing it in from reserves, and just moving really quickly. Could have moved the extra 6 inches during the shooting phase instead of attempting useless pot shots. If I had done so I could have moved it during just the movement phase and fires away at the chaos marines from within, assuming it survived. (alternatively could have popped smoke.) I think I charged the turn after it was destroyed as well, which is not allowed now, since it counts as disembarking.
Warp smith: Well he didn't get a chance to shine since none of my vehicles were damaged. I should have attached him to the havocs instead of the cultists, both for his higher save, and for his higher leadership. Also, it would have been worth it to invest in an invul save for him I believe. Still very tough to use, but I think it's possible.
Mutilators and lord: I believe this did follow his purpose, however I should have marked the guy who was out, as I could assure myself of landing near by. Marking the guy still in reserves gave a chance that he could just appear across the board (as he did.) Also, worth it to invest the points for a better invul perhaps. Mutilators did do what I wanted them to do, however it is an expensive way to do it. Re-writing the list I would take that portion out of it, either deep strike him with chaos marines, or not at all. Instead place him back with the rest of the gun line and in a squad. Like with the havocs.

I really think this army would have a difficult time getting to the other side of the field if more objectives had been over there. The ability to just sit back and wait for my opponent to come to me allowed what was good in the list to shine.

Noise marines are amazing. I don't know if I would do the whole 20 men with four blast masters, because that just seems like overkill. 5 man squads though with the blasters and one blast master, well worth it. I might prefer to take lucius to open the noise marines, ad him into the rhino with the cc group. Cheaper then the whole termi lord guy, and just beef up the aspiring champion in the squad as well.

Havocs: Worth it to link a leader with them. I think having the two ablative wounds was a good idea, however, they needed the greater leadership of an hq unit I think.

Predator and Vindicator are a steal for the points, and that av 13 is much less fragile then the rhinos.
Helbrute. Not a good shooting only platform. If there were other options aside from the missile launcher for the second gun, then yes, but I don't think they are as good with only one good gun and a close combat option. Might try one in a close combat setting next and see if that's a lot better.


It would have been interesting if I ended up with the majority of the objectives and you had to get across the board to take them. I suppose push up with the predator and vindicator with troops behind them. Killing 40 marines is a little tougher when they're not running into your guns.

The big question for me remains how to get mobility from the chaos codex. If I can't figure out how to move around I am losing one of the three phases of the game. As jy2 wrote on the Terminus Est blog, a good list should be able to win or at least be competitive in movement, shooting and assault.

One obvious way is through zombies. They are of course are not very quick, but they do take up a bunch of room and gives you a large foot print to control the board. But, I do not want to use zombies so they offer no help to me. So in terms of transport options there is the rhino and the land raider. The land raider is tough at AV 14, but it is very expensive. The rhino is now an even worse death trap than before. Getting closer to the enemy just allows it to be wrecked faster.

In fact while writing this I am starting to wonder if the rhino is not really a means to get around the board, but a more of a defensive measure to keep your troops alive longer in your deployment zone. Even if it explodes you will not lose more than 2 or 3 guys inside on average. Until it is wrecked the guys inside are protected from small arms fire (important early now with scouting bikes with the devastation banner) and from taking a bunch of wounds from dakka jets, flyrants and whatever else is throwing out a bunch of strength 6 shots.

So if the rhino is not a viable way to get around, I'm not exactly sure how to generate troop movement from the chaos book. Deep striking is an option for terminators and obliterators, but they are not scoring. Bikers and spawn have speed to get around, but they can't score either. The answer might not be in movement, but make a firebase and then send the heldrakes and some deep strikers to kill enough enemy troops that they can't score effectively. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/504517/5245804.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/504517/5245804.page GMT Join my quest for chaos (space marines)
Just some comments about Gameplay with Chaos , cultists are awful only take them in squads of 10 or as zombies, if they even get shot at your opponent wasted his time on them. I feel like Rhinos just aren't what they used to be and that it's better to take more bodies now. Although losing the initiative did hurt a lot. Part of the chaos codex is not going overboard on one thing but still having list synergy. Compared to your 800 pts on troops I could spend 900 pts to get 60 MoK CSM with pistol/CCW giving 4 attacks on the charge per model. Using the rest of the points you could then use it to go heavy weapons to kill anything that threatens your troops or you can bring Vindicators and bikes to run with them, or bring Oblits and Termies to deep strike and take out anything heavy. Instead you seem to be all over with this list, try focusing it a bit more. close combat isn't dead yet, not as Chaos still breathes]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/504517/5252519.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/504517/5252519.page GMT