<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Need Help as VC against Ogres"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/93.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Need Help as VC against Ogres VC and I'm having a hard time against Ogres. My most recent game is an example:

I field 10 Black Knights with a Combat/Magic vampire lord, a Coven Throne, a Black Coach, and a Varghulf, plus the normal core of zombies and skeletons and a couple units of Dire Wolves.

My opponent had:

  • a unit of 4 Mournfangs

  • 12 Ironguts with a hero BSB with Hellheart and a lvl 4 Slaughtermaster with Crown of Command (and maybe the Slaughtermaster had the Hellheart, can't remember now)

  • 16 normal Ogres with hand weapons, shields, and light armor with a lvl 1 Lore of Beasts caster of some kind

  • 7 Leadbelchers with a lvl 1 Lore of Fire Firebelly

  • 2 separate units of those dog-things, each consisting of one model


    • So, he didn't have much, and didn't have Maneaters, and didn't have cannons (which he normally takes) - so I know it could have been a lot worse. Also, I know my list is subpar, but it's fun. And no, I can't immediately change it as I'm using every model I own.

    A summary of the game... my magic phases all sucked, and in the only phase with more than 4 power dice he used the Hellheart and drained all power dice without doing any wounds from the miscast. The Black Knights w/Vamp Lord, Coven Throne, and Varghulf all charged the Leadbelchers, killing and pursuing them to destruction in one turn. The Ironguts crumbled my skeletons during my turn, at which point he reformed to face my Black Knights. Charged on his turn, won, crumbled the Vamp Lord. Bad positioning on my part, and bad judgment thinking the skeletons would survive one more turn.

    That was basically the game. The zombies all died eventually, and in my last turn or two I charged the Varghulf, Black Coach, and Coven Throne into the Ironguts just as a test to see what would happen. I also knew I had to kill that unit to even have a chance at winning the game. I won combat by a lot by putting all attacks into the unit, but killed no characters... and that's when I found out he had the Crown of Command. He charged my Black Coach with all Mournfangs and the other 16 normal Ogres, and my Coach took zero wounds (made all armor and ward saves). Knowing the game was over, I decided to put everything into the Slaughtermaster just to see what would happen, and I reduced him to one wound. I still lost that combat, and everything crumbled, and that was that.

    I'm not sure what else I could have done, other than receiving the charge with my Black Knights. That unit of Ironguts, which is smaller than what most people run them from what I understand, is extremely difficult to crack. Though, it's so many points that I basically have to crack it to win. Of course, as VC, I have essentially zero access to the number 6 spells that counter deathstars. My Vamp Lord is level 4 but must take the Lore of Vampires. Even if I charged that unit with all 4 of my power units (Vamp Lord w/Black Knights, Varghulf, Coach, Throne), I don't think I would kill it unless I dropped the Slaughtermaster.

    So is that what I should be trying to do? I guess I'm just afraid that if I don't put as many wounds as possible onto the unit (which could only realistically happen by targetting rank and file) I'll lose combat and crumble. I also don't know for sure if my Vamp Lord is optimized, and I'll probably make another thread is the army list section to ask that question.

    Anyway, sorry for the long post. What do you think? How can I beat Ogres?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5377201.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5377201.page GMT     Need Help as VC against Ogres You're fielding none of those.
    Skeletons, are easy ogre kills, black coach will get pounded down and varghulf doesn't get to thunderstomp.
    You're running a good number of ogre ineffective units and none of the best ogre killers.

    That leaves you at an uphill battle at best. Combat vampires are the best bet. Try and get the knights and throne and the coach all into the same fight.
    Use the varghulf to redirect, and summon zombies to block charges when you can.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5377269.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5377269.page GMT     Need Help as VC against Ogres
    Also, on the tactics side it is pretty hard to tell you what to do withouth having axes to the map you played on and possition etc. To bad about the magic. Usually the wizards are far away but that is hard with the vampier vs the hellheart.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5377377.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5377377.page GMT     Need Help as VC against Ogres
    Also anything with screams.

    Also Just run your lord's unit into his general/BSB, pick them out and kill the both of them and watch everything flee before you.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5377432.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5377432.page GMT     Re:Need Help as VC against Ogres BSB can't carry the Hellheart, only a wizard can carry an Arcane Item.


    Anyway, a big unit of IGs with characters is basically the hardest hitting combat block in the game. It will have a character with the CoC in it, so its not going anywhere even if it loses(unlikely)

    The only way to counter it is with magic or to chaff it up. Keep feeding it units of raised zombies, it will tie it up round after round.

    If you can get Death or Shadow magic, both mess ogres up pretty bad. Pit of Shades and Purple Sun were made to kill ogres.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5377634.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5377634.page GMT     Need Help as VC against Ogres http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5377873.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5377873.page GMT Need Help as VC against Ogres
     Leith wrote:
    Konrad von Carstien, never lost to ogres while this guy was in my army.

    Are you assigning multiple wounds 2 correctly? It's not nearly as awesome against units with 3 wounds each.

    So Konrad rolls his 4 attacks, hitting on 3's with re-rolls; then wounding on 3's. That's slightly better than 2 wounding hits. Each has the multiple wounds 2 rule. Against an unwounded ogre block, the first does 2 wounds, and the 2nd only does 1 (because it kills the model and the over-kill is lost). Red fury triggers giving him 3 more attacks, which will drop another ogre. You're looking at ~6 wounds.
    If Konrad was fighting dragon ogres, he'd do 8 wounds, because they've got the 4th wound to give up to multiple wounds 2.

    Konrad is good, but only lands a single wound better than a sword of might ASF normal vampire, and he's a fair bit worse than vampire lord.
    I don't think giving up all hope of surviving combat is worth the slight improvement in damage dealing.

    -Matt
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5378671.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5378671.page GMT     Need Help as VC against Ogres
    He likes making friends with ogres.

    And is only like 160p]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5378713.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5378713.page GMT     Need Help as VC against Ogres http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5378760.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5378760.page GMT Re:Need Help as VC against Ogres
     Grey Templar wrote:

    Anyway, a big unit of IGs with characters is basically the hardest hitting combat block in the game. It will have a character with the CoC in it, so its not going anywhere even if it loses(unlikely)

    The only way to counter it is with magic or to chaff it up. Keep feeding it units of raised zombies, it will tie it up round after round.

    If you can get Death or Shadow magic, both mess ogres up pretty bad. Pit of Shades and Purple Sun were made to kill ogres.


    My preferred way of countering it is 35 great weapon grave guard, a goul king, Manfred the acolyte, 2 baby vampires and a wight king ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5379908.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5379908.page GMT     Need Help as VC against Ogres
    1) As mentioned, I'm using every model I own, so I can't use stuff like terrorgheists or Grave Guard.

    2) I'm about to play in a campaign where, at least at first, special characters will be banned. This means no Konrad.

    3) Also because of the campaign, I'm looking to have something of a take-all-comers list.

    So, some specifics:

    First, thanks for all the help. I need all I can get! As for screams, should I try giving my vamp lord Scabscrath? Or is that just asking to lose because I have no magic item points left for anything good?

    Also, what do you guys think about the number 3, 5, and 6 spells from the Lore of Vampires? Are they pretty much always bad, and I should be swapping one of those out for 1, 2, or 4?

    Spirit Hosts are pretty easy to make - I could drop the Varghulf to field a couple of those and maybe something else that's small.

    As for the Black Coach, for those of you that use it... Are you trying to charge it into combat as soon as possible? Or are you waiting for it to charge up via Evocation of Death? OR are you ignoring both of those options, and just looking for the best-timed charge that you can get, against the right matchup?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5380553.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5380553.page GMT     Need Help as VC against Ogres
     Tangent wrote:
    First, thanks for all the help. I need all I can get! As for screams, should I try giving my vamp lord Scabscrath? Or is that just asking to lose because I have no magic item points left for anything good?
    Skabscrath is ok if the meta isn't cannon driven. I put it on my Vamp Lord on mount with the Dawnstone. 2+ Armor Rerollable makes it feel like its almost got a ward save! As long as you keep it away from s6+ units, you should be safe.

    Also, what do you guys think about the number 3, 5, and 6 spells from the Lore of Vampires? Are they pretty much always bad, and I should be swapping one of those out for 1, 2, or 4?

    I don't know numbers that well. I know Hellish Vigor and Danse Macabre are amazing. Curse of Years has its ups and downs. Curse of Years is amazing against single wound infantry. it's not as effective against Ogres. I'd take it against almost any army besides Ogres and a WoC Throgg army. It's surprising how often players forget about dispelling it. Or just don't make it a priority to, when they really should.

    Spirit Hosts are pretty easy to make - I could drop the Varghulf to field a couple of those and maybe something else that's small.

    I would not only because a few ethereal models are a pain whenever you feild them, but against O+G it completely changes the game. Run them up to NG Mangler Squigs and laugh as 50+ points go down the drain

    As for the Black Coach, for those of you that use it... Are you trying to charge it into combat as soon as possible? Or are you waiting for it to charge up via Evocation of Death? OR are you ignoring both of those options, and just looking for the best-timed charge that you can get, against the right matchup?

    I don't like the black coach personally. I'd rather use the Varghulf.

    If your really having magic issues, the best piece of recommendation I could offer is drop Red Fury off your main Vamp Lord and take Master of the Dark Arts. Its 75 points sure, but it increases your magic effectiveness amazingly.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5381293.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5381293.page GMT     Need Help as VC against Ogres
     Tangent wrote:

    First, thanks for all the help. I need all I can get! As for screams, should I try giving my vamp lord Scabscrath? Or is that just asking to lose because I have no magic item points left for anything good?

    Also, what do you guys think about the number 3, 5, and 6 spells from the Lore of Vampires? Are they pretty much always bad, and I should be swapping one of those out for 1, 2, or 4?

    Spirit Hosts are pretty easy to make - I could drop the Varghulf to field a couple of those and maybe something else that's small.

    As for the Black Coach, for those of you that use it... Are you trying to charge it into combat as soon as possible? Or are you waiting for it to charge up via Evocation of Death? OR are you ignoring both of those options, and just looking for the best-timed charge that you can get, against the right matchup?


    Scabscrath seems to work best like this:
    Vampire Lord: heavy armor, shield, dragon helm, opal amulet, scabscrath, Aura of Dark Majesty, Curse of the Revenant. Mounted on Hellsteed.
    That gives you 2+ armor, 2+ ward vs fire, 4+ ward (1use), -1 enemy leadership, and 4 wounds. You're mounted on a horse that flies, but you're unit type Cavalry for look out rolls.
    In combat you get 7 S5 attacks. I usually add in dreadknight or beguile, and make this vampire lord a level 4 (since I don't have points left for a master necromancer).
    I take a block of 10 black knights, and stick this guy in the corner, and once safe from cannons, fly out behind enemy lines, screaming at them with the 2D6+4 scream vs leadership -1.
    Since I tend to stay out of combat*, I go for gaze, curse and wind for magic.
    It's important at some point to kill something in melee, or your 559 point character dies at the end of the game. Still, with 7 attacks on the charge, it isn't hard to find something that you can safely off (and be weary of your required over-run).
    GW has no model for the Hellstead, so I converted up a bret peg and mounted on of the Coven throne vampires riding side saddle. Perfect for a scream vamp.

    Black Coach has 1 redeeming fact; it's tough to kill. It's one of the very few units that I feel safe throwing into a fight to support a unit of black knights, blood knights, crypt horrors or graveguard. Any other unit gives up too much combat res and you risk the crumble.
    That given, the coach doesn't bring much to the table. It's a vampire, so it can't heal. It's a chariot, so it cannot ever march (10" max move as a flyer even). It might eventually go ethereal, but you could take 3 wraith heroes for the same cost, who get in the fight much sooner. It's just hard to have a reason to run the thing.

    -Matt

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5383891.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5383891.page GMT     Need Help as VC against Ogres LD, the best he has in his army is 8 without a butcher, so putting things like ethereals at them for fear tests and then having your terrorgheists screaming "Leave britney alone" will decimate them.

    Also ogres need the charge more than a lot ofother armies, use chaff units to hold them up so your knights can hit them]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5384336.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5384336.page GMT     Need Help as VC against Ogres
    Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
    Also ogres need the charge more than a lot ofother armies, use chaff units to hold them up so your knights can hit them
    I get tired of zombie conga lines popping up in front of my units. I think your opponent will, too.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5386796.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5386796.page GMT     Need Help as VC against Ogres OP, can we get a more comprehensive list of what you run?

    Two things strike me as odd.

    Getting constantly terrible magic phases.
    IG slapping around a block of skeles

    Regarding the magic phases, how many casters do you run? VC are a horde style army, and should make it a point to always dominate the magic phase. Casters are cheap, and they're also needed to babysit your undead units not only for keeping them in tip top shape but also for them to march. I'm not sure about standard mindsets, but I've found having everything sticking close together is a recipe for disaster.

    The bit about the iron guts is also strange to me. I don't have my book handy, but I'm pretty sure IG excel at killing a few tough things instead of several weak things. Not that they can't kill them, but they don't spit out enough wounds to run through a horde in any kind of haste. Again, I need to look through my book and find their stats, which I'll do later on tonight, but from what I remember that's the way it is. With proper caster support, you should have no problems generating troops fasts than they can kill them.

    Again, I would like to know more details about what you're fielding.

    Also, can't say I'm a big fan of characters in the book. Never seemed to do enough for their cost. Konrad is good again MC, but unless everyone you fight uses them I would avoid fielding him.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5388052.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5388052.page GMT     Need Help as VC against Ogres
     Necroshea wrote:
    The bit about the iron guts is also strange to me. I don't have my book handy, but I'm pretty sure IG excel at killing a few tough things instead of several weak things. Not that they can't kill them, but they don't spit out enough wounds to run through a horde in any kind of haste.
    A gutstar with nine members, including characters can dish out a lot of wounds. Assuming good rolling, you're looking at d3x3 impact hits, 5 attacks from the Tyrant, 3 from the BSB, 4 from the Gutlord, and 9 from the 'guts (assuming no more characters), followed by three stomps. That's easily 25 dead skeletons on the charge, followed by crumbling.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5388171.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5388171.page GMT     Need Help as VC against Ogres
     Breotan wrote:
     Necroshea wrote:
    The bit about the iron guts is also strange to me. I don't have my book handy, but I'm pretty sure IG excel at killing a few tough things instead of several weak things. Not that they can't kill them, but they don't spit out enough wounds to run through a horde in any kind of haste.
    A gutstar with nine members, including characters can dish out a lot of wounds. Assuming good rolling, you're looking at d3x3 impact hits, 5 attacks from the Tyrant, 3 from the BSB, 4 from the Gutlord, and 9 from the 'guts (assuming no more characters), followed by three stomps. That's easily 25 dead skeletons on the charge, followed by crumbling.


    Bah, completely forgot about the impact hits...and the crumbling...and having things besides IG in the unit...ewwww

    Yeah I derped pretty hard]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5388179.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5388179.page GMT     Need Help as VC against Ogres
    30 Zombies w/full command
    35 Zombies w/full command
    50 Skeletons w/full command and Screaming Banner
    5 Dire Wolves
    5 Dire Wolves

    Varghulf
    Black Coach

    10 Black Knights w/full command and Banner of the Barrows

    Level 1 Necromancer w/Dispel Scroll bunkered in unit of 30 zombies

    Level 1 Vampire hero on Coven Throne, decently kitted

    Level 4 Vampire Lord mounted on Hellsteed and riding with the Black Knights, fully kitted for combat

    As for the magic phases:
    Turn 1 I rolled snake eyes on Winds of Magic.
    Turn 2 I rolled a 3.
    Turn 3 I rolled a 6, he used Hellheart, drained all of them (I rolled a 7 on the miscast table, but can't remember if the dice were drained through that or via the Hellheart itself).
    Turn 4 I rolled a 9 but the Vamp Lord was dead, so it was irrelevant.

    It's hard to babysit my smaller core units when my level 4 caster is with a cavalry unit. He's always downfield, pretty far away, and in combat. So, this causes a few problems. One, he can't use his high level for Invocation to raise my core troops. Two, they can't march. Three, because he's in combat, I tend to use all my power dice with him for buffs, which usually leaves almost none (usually none, actually) for the level 1 Necro to top up the zombies and skeletons. Unless I roll really high on Winds of Magic, of course. Lastly, I want his leadership for the Coven Throne for Battle of Wills, and that thing is usually pretty far downfield.

    My general strategy that I start most games trying to accomplish is to get a massive combo charge from the Knights, Throne, and either the Coach or the Varghulf - usually the Varghulf, because I want the Coach to be alive long enough to charge up. I almost always get this on turn 2 due to a combination of fast movement, Vanhel's Danse, and ANOTHER Vanhel's Danse from the Book of Arkhan on my Coven Throne Vamp. Also, I use the Dire Wolves to try to ensure that I get the charge, and not the enemy. When this strategy works out, I then tend to use my core units to hold and tie up my flanks while my power units pursue and overrun to the backfield, behind enemy lines. The idea then is to reform to face my enemy's flank or rear (or front if they win combat and reform to face me) and get another charge next turn. If all goes well, I win the game that way.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5388484.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5388484.page GMT     Need Help as VC against Ogres lvl 4 necro behind your blocks in a zombie bunker while your vamp lord is off raping face? I mean I would think you're want most of your casting power next to your troops and not so much next to the units who don't need it too much.

    Perhaps if you allocated more resources to getting your annoyingly slow to kill stuff up the field you can use your vamp lord to smash into flanks? Use dogs to tie up things until you can get around to them?






    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Oh, one more thing. Ever thought of giving your skeles banner of swiftness? When fighting OK denying them the chance to charge is crucial, and having your tarpit move that much faster could help out.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5389522.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5389522.page GMT     Need Help as VC against Ogres
    1) I don't know if I have the points for a Necro Lord.

    2) I usually go for the bubble buffs with the Vamp Lord, so not only does his own unit get the buff but so do the Coven Throne, Varghulf, and Black Coach. Aside from that, I'm also looking for the Lore Attribute - as I've got a lot of single models with multiple wounds, having the Vamp Lord as the caster allows me to heal almost all of those units (as they're all within range of the Vamp Lord) even if I'm not casting Invocation.

    But, I see your points, and I definitely have wanted to fit in a Master Necro. And man, I would LOVE to not have to worry about miscasting with my Vamp Lord. You have no idea. Or maybe you do!

    And yeah, I have considered the movement banner. And actually, maybe that's really good advice - without the Aura of Dark Majesty for a penalty to my opponent's leadership, the Screaming Banner tends to be not as effective in games of late.

    One thing that I struggle with, though, concerning having fast-moving core troops, is that I almost feel like... maybe I don't want them in combat at all? Here's the thing - if I play it right, they take SO LONG to die and that, combined with how you never want to combo charge with zombies or skeletons because of crumble, means I'm always afraid that my bigger stuff won't see enough combat to justify the points. And, of course, the longer they stay out of combat, the longer they are cannon bait... But maybe this concern is unfounded. Occasionally I will get off a bubble Vanhel's in turn 1, and then ALL OF A SUDDEN every single unit I have is like 4 inches from the enemy, in turn 1. And it usually works out alright, I suppose...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5392052.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5392052.page GMT     Need Help as VC against Ogres http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5392421.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5392421.page GMT Need Help as VC against Ogres
    So my best strategy is... field a couple of ethereal units if I can. Banshees and Scabscrath for the screams to abuse the poor leadership of the Ogres, combined with Aura of Dark Majesty if possible. Finally, tie up the Ironguts with zombies for the entire game if possible, and simply ignore them - kill everything else and delay til the end of the game.

    Right?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5392822.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5392822.page GMT     Need Help as VC against Ogres
     Tangent wrote:
    Alrighty, I just want to recap this before the weekend hits:

    So my best strategy is... field a couple of ethereal units if I can. Banshees and Scabscrath for the screams to abuse the poor leadership of the Ogres, combined with Aura of Dark Majesty if possible. Finally, tie up the Ironguts with zombies for the entire game if possible, and simply ignore them - kill everything else and delay til the end of the game.

    Right?


    Sounds like a good plan. We are a late game army, throw your cheap units at things to bog them down for 3 or 4 turns while slowly picking apart their army. You'll both suffer from attrition but only you can bring models back.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5393325.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5393325.page GMT     Need Help as VC against Ogres CC attacks?

    Stick a cairn wraith in the skeles, and issue a challenge. If he accepts, he does nothing. If he declines, he does nothing but the wraith still gets to slicing


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Also, with all the non core units waltzing about, what makes you think the opponent would use cannons on skeles?

    I mean target priority should be pretty obvious to anyone with a modicum of experience. When you've got a super expensive vamp lord riding around with black nights and a block of skeles in the back field, I don't know why you would shoot at the skeles.

    I also completely forgot about the chance of miscast on a combat vamp. Yet another good reason I'll never run them like that.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5393351.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5393351.page GMT     Need Help as VC against Ogres
     jonolikespie wrote:


    Sounds like a good plan. We are a late game army, throw your cheap units at things to bog them down for 3 or 4 turns while slowly picking apart their army. You'll both suffer from attrition but only you can bring models back.


    Got it.

     Necroshea wrote:
    Question, do you see the ogre champions/characters ever using magical/flaming CC attacks?


    Nope, not really, but he DOES take a level 1 Firebelly sometimes with the Lore of Fire.

     Necroshea wrote:
    Stick a cairn wraith in the skeles, and issue a challenge. If he accepts, he does nothing. If he declines, he does nothing but the wraith still gets to slicing


    Not a bad idea, though his Ironguts unit also has a champion in addition to the hero and the lord.

     Necroshea wrote:
    Also, with all the non core units waltzing about, what makes you think the opponent would use cannons on skeles?

    I mean target priority should be pretty obvious to anyone with a modicum of experience. When you've got a super expensive vamp lord riding around with black nights and a block of skeles in the back field, I don't know why you would shoot at the skeles.


    I don't think that - did I say that? Can't remember now. When I mentioned cannons and how it would be worse if he had them, I meant because he would be blasting my Coven Throne, Varghulf, and Black Coach.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5393535.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5393535.page GMT     Need Help as VC against Ogres gw attacks]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5399330.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5399330.page GMT Need Help as VC against Ogres ASF Vampires in the front combined with the Lances, and the level 4 in the second rank providing the magical defence. Combine that with the banner of the barrows and miasma and you're likely hitting on 2s.

    An Alternate Vampire lord for ogres is the +3 attack, Potion of strength build. I'm starting to prefer that to the standard ogre blade lord.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5399666.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5399666.page GMT     Need Help as VC against Ogres
    Your main force should be massive units of zombies, and perhaps a horde of Great Weapon Grave Guard with the banner of the barrows. A high level necro should also go with them, in a bunker of zombies. If you've got the points, a Mortis Engine can help keep your guys up and keep damaging his.

    Charge the Dire wolves into lone casters or characters, or get them to take out annoying diversion units like the sabertooths, or hold up large things like ironblasters, stonehorns or the like until your more killy things arrive.

    Charge the ghoul king into whatever you think you can get him to kill by himself. He should be tooled up for the job. Could also give him Scabscrath to make him a terrorgheist like screamer on a 20mm base. Putting him near your other units who are engaged in combat will allow you to use his scream on their opponents, softening them up for the fight.

    Keep running Hexwraiths through units, until they are sufficiently pinned and weak by a larger force so you can rear charge with them and hopefully wipe out the unit. Would not likely do this against foes who are fighting against zombies as they'll likely crumble. Use spirit hosts to tie up large things like Ironblasters which have no magical attacks, and basically try to take out all his support units.

    Grave Guard and Zombie blocks should be constantly re-rezed by your Necro. Having a corpse cart nearby is quite handy as your zombies will have always strikes first, and your great weapon grave guard will be striking at initiative, which is better than the Ogres. The more you take down, the less they have to hit you back with.

    Also, as always, use terrain to your advantage. Hold a bank of a river so he loses his rank bonus, defend an obstacle etc. Also note that ethereal troops treat all terrain as open ground, so that horrible river of death or wood of devouring doesn't matter to you, so feel free to ride through them, or hide behind them.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5402620.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5402620.page GMT     Need Help as VC against Ogres http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5405849.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/513323/5405849.page GMT