zamnath wrote:
Is your daemon list post-roll for rewards? Corpulescence is great on that Keeper but it's not a guarantee, so I'm guessing this must be post-roll.

I'll admit that I haven't run them, but HoTz/Horror units strike me as points inefficient. The best power to get for a Horrors unit (especially w/ Khorne hounds) is Bolt of Change, and 10 bodies will be just as good at doing that as 13. You won't really need the spells that the Herald can bring at that point, either. I could see a Horrors unit being used for AA, but with the number of FMC you're bringing along the only AA issues you'll have is against the spammiest lists, which most of your army won't care about anyways since they'll be stuck in combat.

The Plaguebearers unit is of minimal utility in your list. Pink Horrors are better objective campers as long as you put your objectives in Ruins and they have a significantly greater threat radius from their objectives than Plaguebearers do. Plaguebearers are only slightly less reliant on cover for survival than Pink Horrors, and a ten man squad is not that much more likely to survive a determined assault. I've found it's better to go for the horrors and use threat saturation to keep the enemy away from them while they snipe during whatever opportunities they have to do so. You also should really consider grabbing an Exalted reward for the Portalglyph. I've used it for around ten games in a row, now, and it has never failed to generate at least one extra scoring troop. You essentially gain multiple extra scoring units for 30pts. It's absurdly efficient when you use it to spawn Horrors. In KP games you can always just go for Grimoire instead, of course.

I'm interested to see what happens to your Keeper in this game. My gut instinct is that it is too fragile to survive in a 2k level game, but I'd love to be wrong here as opening up those HS slaanesh princes is amazing. Still cursing at GW for not making a named slaanesh GD. In a 2k level game you can bring up to 4 Slaanesh DPs anyway, so I'm not sure the keeper's worth it.

I currently run a Daemonic Flying Circus list using a CSM allied detachment. If your Keeper ends up being as easy to kill as I think it will, try nixing it and some other stuff and fitting in a CSM DP and Heldrake. The equipment that a CSM DP has access to is excellent and the Heldrake is a really efficient flyer.

My overall suggestions would be to get rid of the Heralds (maybe switching them for a pair of Khorne Jugger Heralds to go with the hounds, but probably not--I don't think the heralds have much of a place in a monster spam list), get rid of the Keeper/HS Slaanesh DPs, and replace the 3*13 Horrors and 10 Plaguebearers with 4*10 Pink Horrors (going for Bolt and existing only to chill in ruins and contest/grab objectives late game). I'd then slot in two HQ Slaanesh DPs and an allied CSM contingent of a DP w/ Heldrake and whatever cheap troops unit you feel would fit. You probably won't, but if you do have extra points after doing that buffing up the size of the Flesh Hounds units would be a solid idea. If you find they die too easily, combining the two into a single unit might be a decent idea, though it would hurt your tactical flexibility a bit.

 Makutsu wrote:
How did the Black Knights charge first turn?

 Makutsu wrote:
How did the Black Knights charge first turn?

 CaptainJay wrote:

 Makutsu wrote:
How did the Black Knights charge first turn?

They shouldn't have (naughty mercer), he evidently forgot that you're not allowed first turn assault after scout moves.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Makutsu wrote:
How did the Black Knights charge first turn?

Wondering that myself as well...

Also, how the hell are Pinkies giving out FnP if the Attack Bike passed all its saves???


As for how to use Pinkies effectively...
Lv3 TzHerald w/Prescience + 18-20. Now you really do threaten units since you've got a total of 7D6 re-rolled shots hitting a target. Even without Locus of Conjuration, that's enough dakka to lay the real hurt on T3/4 units and is still decent against small T5 units like 5-man Biker squads.
Plus you're now a threat to av10/11 enemy aircraft as well.

Either that, or else just take 10 strong units and pray for Bolt. (which IMHO is a waste because there's a 50/50 chance of getting a useless power).

Mythantor wrote:
Your thinking about it the wrong way round, Everything that can be done with a unit of 5 can be done with a Unit of 3

They do drop faster but you get twice as many units so that more than balances it out.

A suggestion then for only a slight modification to your list. is drop the flamers and the plasma guns, that will give you an extra 100 points which will get you 2 more BK
you can then split into 2 squads of 5.



Not getting twice as many. I currently have six units of five while what you're suggesting is four units of six, then combat squad them into units of three - this would give me two more units over all than my own list, though easier to kill.

I have considering ditching special weapons to get those extra Black Knights, though I am not sure. I am not fussed about the flamers going though I do want the plasma guns.

Makutsu wrote:
So you can't get multiple FNP buffs in 1 phase.

zamnath wrote:Keep in mind that a Pink Horrors unit GtG in ruins has a 2+ cover save. The Plaguebearers don't need to GtG to get this save, but they also can't do much sitting on an objective anyway. With a 2+ cover save a unit of pink horrors will fail 1 out of every 36 cover saves. This is significantly better than the 1 out of 6 you get with Plaguebearers, even considering the difference in toughness between the two units. Unless targeted by a cover ignoring weapon (most of which they can mitigate by staying out of line of sight/being on multiple levels) or assaulted in CC (which is not that likely if you build your list to maximize on mobile threats) your Pink Horrors are going to be better objective campers than your Plaguebearers. In all the games I've played so far with the new codex I have yet to lose a single unit of Pink Horrors to anything outside of assault. If you play with a decent variety of terrain (and thus have ruins on the board) there's just no comparison. My Plaguebearers have not been nearly so lucky when I've taken them.

The problem I see with big units of Pink Horrors w/ Heralds is that they're extremely expensive and prone to bad luck. Someone did the math online and any given use of Flickering Fire has about a 1/4 chance of not going off at all between rolling to cast and the enemy's deny the witch. When a 90pt unit fails to hurt the enemy, that's not a big deal. When half the shooting (or all if you cast prescience) from a 200ish pt Horror/Herald unit fails to do anything for a turn that's going to hurt a lot. Then, even after you've rolled to see if your power goes off, you have to see how many shots you get, how many hits, how many wounds, and how many wounds most regular enemies (read: Marines) will save. Compare this to the 90pt Bolt unit (50% of your Horrors should have access to Bolt in any given game) which still has to roll to cast, but can remove the enemy's deny the witch (read the FAQ: it says first unit effected by a beam, not first enemy unit, can deny the witch, so if you plink a wound off a hound first your enemy gets no deny the witch), then automatically hits, has no real targetting restrictions, is admittedly a bit weaker against large numbers of models than your Horrors, but has AP2 and, therefore, the ability to deny saves to the enemy, and there's no comparison between the two load outs for the price you pay. Take four 10 man Horror units for 360pts total, use the Horrors that get Flickering Fire to hold objectives, and use the Bolt Horrors to give some extra AV and AT shooting. Spend another 30pts for an Exalted gift to gain access to Portalglyph just to be sure on scorers, if you'd like. Put all the rest of the pts you were putting into your Horrors into models that will actually serve as a consistent threat. I think you'll find this making a huge difference in your list.

 mercer wrote:

zamnath wrote:Keep in mind that a Pink Horrors unit GtG in ruins has a 2+ cover save. The Plaguebearers don't need to GtG to get this save, but they also can't do much sitting on an objective anyway. With a 2+ cover save a unit of pink horrors will fail 1 out of every 36 cover saves. This is significantly better than the 1 out of 6 you get with Plaguebearers, even considering the difference in toughness between the two units. Unless targeted by a cover ignoring weapon (most of which they can mitigate by staying out of line of sight/being on multiple levels) or assaulted in CC (which is not that likely if you build your list to maximize on mobile threats) your Pink Horrors are going to be better objective campers than your Plaguebearers. In all the games I've played so far with the new codex I have yet to lose a single unit of Pink Horrors to anything outside of assault. If you play with a decent variety of terrain (and thus have ruins on the board) there's just no comparison. My Plaguebearers have not been nearly so lucky when I've taken them.

The problem I see with big units of Pink Horrors w/ Heralds is that they're extremely expensive and prone to bad luck. Someone did the math online and any given use of Flickering Fire has about a 1/4 chance of not going off at all between rolling to cast and the enemy's deny the witch. When a 90pt unit fails to hurt the enemy, that's not a big deal. When half the shooting (or all if you cast prescience) from a 200ish pt Horror/Herald unit fails to do anything for a turn that's going to hurt a lot. Then, even after you've rolled to see if your power goes off, you have to see how many shots you get, how many hits, how many wounds, and how many wounds most regular enemies (read: Marines) will save. Compare this to the 90pt Bolt unit (50% of your Horrors should have access to Bolt in any given game) which still has to roll to cast, but can remove the enemy's deny the witch (read the FAQ: it says first unit effected by a beam, not first enemy unit, can deny the witch, so if you plink a wound off a hound first your enemy gets no deny the witch), then automatically hits, has no real targetting restrictions, is admittedly a bit weaker against large numbers of models than your Horrors, but has AP2 and, therefore, the ability to deny saves to the enemy, and there's no comparison between the two load outs for the price you pay. Take four 10 man Horror units for 360pts total, use the Horrors that get Flickering Fire to hold objectives, and use the Bolt Horrors to give some extra AV and AT shooting. Spend another 30pts for an Exalted gift to gain access to Portalglyph just to be sure on scorers, if you'd like. Put all the rest of the pts you were putting into your Horrors into models that will actually serve as a consistent threat. I think you'll find this making a huge difference in your list.

Excellent points, dude. I found when the Horrors were sitting in terrain they at least had some ranged offence.

Not sure how you can have 50% Horror units with bolt though.

Ratius wrote:I have to say, I thought the double DP/wings, BT and KoS would have torn the DAs apart.

What went wrong for them Merc inho?
What was the terrain like? With wings/fleet all 4 of the above should have been out of LoS/in cover imho and then struck hard?

Due to vanguard strike the Daemons had the gakky area, the ruins were spaced out over that side. Ravenwing just flanked up and blasted those winged monsters before they could take off.

Terrain is 9 buildings, over to the left in the Daemons area was a very large building (three CoD kits - bigger than shrine ruin), top left tower ruin and centre a building made from two kits. Rest was open ground. So the Daemons were deployed in clumps in the terrain. The scouting Ravenwing managed to by pass the winged monsters cover and the Keeper was lagging behind getting into the fight.