thenoobbomb wrote:

And ye know, they have a tough job, carrying those bals of steel around with them all the time..

 thenoobbomb wrote:

And ye know, they have a tough job, carrying those balls of steel around with them all the time..

 Grey Templar wrote:
Both the IG and Space Marines are equally valuable.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Without either the Imperium would have fallen long ago.

Space Marines can react quickly to threats and can also quell rebellions before they've even begun.

To say one or the other is dispensable is naive and wrong.

 TheDiscoSpider wrote:
There wouldn't be any planets to guard without the Space Marines. The Great Crusade would've been crushed almost immediately without the Primarchs and their Space Marine Legions.

Not to downplay the Guard at all, but just saying. The Imperium was built by Space Marines.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
What? Given the proper application, single squads of Space Marines can hold cities on their own. They don't need numbers, they have mobility. Cripple the opposition with surgical strikes meant to scatter and divide.

The Imperial Guard conquers planets and quells rebellions in a span of months or even years.

Space Marines have been known to win battles in mere days. Kharn slaughtered a whole planet in a night with his Berzerkers.

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:

 TheDiscoSpider wrote:
There wouldn't be any planets to guard without the Space Marines. The Great Crusade would've been crushed almost immediately without the Primarchs and their Space Marine Legions.

Not to downplay the Guard at all, but just saying. The Imperium was built by Space Marines.

Keyword WAS. The SM were the greatest force during the GC. Now... meh.

 TheDiscoSpider wrote:

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:

 TheDiscoSpider wrote:
There wouldn't be any planets to guard without the Space Marines. The Great Crusade would've been crushed almost immediately without the Primarchs and their Space Marine Legions.

Not to downplay the Guard at all, but just saying. The Imperium was built by Space Marines.

Keyword WAS. The SM were the greatest force during the GC. Now... meh.

Imagine the current, major conflicts going on. Imagine them without Space Marines.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

incompetent commanders, flashlights, cardboard armour

 n0t_u wrote:
Macharius as well as one of the more notable commanders. Guy makes Creed look like a complete dumbass.

I'd like to see him return since I think he's only MIA and don't remember it being mentioned that he's actually dead. With the way the warp is, if it's not confirmed they could come back someday.

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
Macharius as well as one of the more notable commanders. Guy makes Creed look like a complete dumbass.

I'd like to see him return since I think he's only MIA and don't remember it being mentioned that he's actually dead. With the way the warp is, if it's not confirmed they could come back someday.

IIRC 5th edition IG Codex said that he died after he lost a X battle which name I don't remember right now. After he lost, the Macharian Crusade went scattered and... well... nothing. It ended.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Still, there does seem to a tendency to degrade the Imperial Guard and it's equipment a fair amount on forums (poorly trained, incompetent commanders, flashlights, cardboard armour).

Bludbaff wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Still, there does seem to a tendency to degrade the Imperial Guard and it's equipment a fair amount on forums (poorly trained, incompetent commanders, flashlights, cardboard armour).

All of these things are true, which is what makes them so awesome: they have all those disadvantages, and they overcome them and HOLD THE LINE.

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Both the IG and Space Marines are equally valuable.

As far as the codices and various books say, without IG the IoM would fall.
Without SM, the IoM could resist.

 Melissia wrote:
Few in number?

I think you may not bethinking too clearly on the matter.

A hive world recruits at least a thousand times more guardsmen every year than there are Astartes-- and the trillions of people that aren't being recruited are working in manufactorums to produce arms, tanks, and other equipment and necessities for them as well.

The yearly miltiary-industrial output of a single hive world is enough to equal or exceed the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes military force and then some.

Just one world.

 Melissia wrote:
I wasn't objecting to you, specifically, but rather to the idea that the Imperium would be dead without the Space Marines.

Space Marines are a single tiny drop of military prowess compared to the awesome might of the Imperial Guard and Navy. It would be a blow to the Imperium if they were to all be wiped out, that is to be sure-- Astartes are excellent force enhancers for the Imperial Guard, and the best boarding troops that the Imperium has in space-- but it would not necessarily be a deathblow.

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I wasn't objecting to you, specifically, but rather to the idea that the Imperium would be dead without the Space Marines.

Space Marines are a single tiny drop of military prowess compared to the awesome might of the Imperial Guard and Navy. It would be a blow to the Imperium if they were to all be wiped out, that is to be sure-- Astartes are excellent force enhancers for the Imperial Guard, and the best boarding troops that the Imperium has in space-- but it would not necessarily be a deathblow.

^All.Of.This.

 Ardaric_Vaanes wrote:
Sounds to me like they just panic-spam with the imperial guard with the way they throw them into the meat grinder in waves to die. The average guardsman given he has good leadership can do a hell of a lot of damage to the enemy, or a hell of a lot of good for their own side. But because their commanders have the tendency to buckle to the pressure of capturing/holding an objective they waste lives by wanting to do it as quickly as possible, because of their high casualties and often suicidal tactics it gives them a bad reputation.

If commanders were more cautious they'd probably be able to shape their regiment into something cunning and effective with a hell of a reputation to go along with it < providing they had good armour and air support, I mean they're already effective, but they'd even better with less suicidal tactics. But that'll never happen given that their appeal has to be grimdark.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
Astartes are necessary because in the same way tanks are, they may be few in number but when concentrated they can break holes in enemy lines that infantry can't. The Imperial Guard could be better in my opinion if the Imperium bothered arming them.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Methinks a lot of people's perception of the Imperial Guard comes from Dawn of War, in which they were a very underpowered army. Then came those posters and now you got the "Flashlight carrying, cardboard wearing idiots lead around by bigger idiots".

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
You guys realize there are MILLIONS of regiments out there right? Some are career soldiers who thrive on being professional like the Cadians or the Mordians. Some may lack discipline, but know what it takes to get the job done anyways, like Catachans or the Steel Legion (who is primarily made up of hive gangers) You've got your poorly trained human wave attacks (valhallans) Your warrior culture (Vostroyans) Your career light infantry (Gaunt's Ghosts) Your siege warfare specialists (Death Korps of Krieg) Your elite airborn devisions (Elysians) etc. etc. etc. There is no one description for the Imperial Guard except that they're made up of human beings and they're not space marines. So there are highly professional units just like there are illiterate conscripted units that are only good for canon fodder. That's been the Imperial Guard's shtick for years.

As for whether or not the Imperium needs space marines or not, they're a necessary evil. The Imperial Guard is a massive force, and takes time to deploy. The Space Marines are mobile, fast, decisive, and can hit weakpoints quickly. They're the ideal stopgap force. They're the guys who can show up to a planet, link up with surviving PDF, and then keep things under control until the Imperial Guard show up and take over. Then the space marines head off to the next hotspot for more glory. If the Imperium is on the attack, Space Marines make excellent shock troops to charge in, create a gap, and keep it open long enough for the IG to exploit it and take the ground.

Without the other, neither organization would be able to function nearly as well as they do now. They know what they do best, and when they can't do something, the other steps in.