FlingitNow wrote:
BotWD on Phoenix guard seems a waste as does not putting someone with a High magic spell in with them. Likewise the Razorstandard does little for the Lions who already do well against armoured foes. Lions should get BotWD either the Sword masters or Phoenix guard would benefit from the razorstandard more.

Not sure why 12 knights would make good use of martial prowess. 15 would be good but I can see your plan.

Heavens is a weird choice for a lvl 4. High or Life would appear to be the more logical choices particularly with the book. Also the equipment on your characters seems a bit weird. The book seems tailor made for the Lore master with his massed spells. But having the 2 also seems weird you've 13 spells in total. How many dice are you going to get? You'll be wasting one of your Lord choices each magic phase.

Why a shield on the Noble with halberd. He'll never get shot at.

I also feel you're trying to do too much with the special choices. With 3 you have decent throw away combat units but they can't beat a serious unit on their own. This is forcing your hand with the core. But the "anvil" with only 18 guys and no 3++ won't hold up to anything.

Id consider dropping one of the special units to get some Eagles for artillery hunting and a Phoenix for support and WM hunting if needed.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The PG already have a 4++ the dragon banner doesn't help against miscasts unless they've been faq to magical attacks. That is a lot of points for a fairly situational advantage that isn't even that big (as you already have a 4++).

So you're taking a 280 point character for the Death Signature spell? Why not just take a lvl 1 death mage? As for Harmonic convergence. Great on the Silver Helms little benefit to your other units and practically nothing for the PG if it was ward saves as well as armour saves I could see it. Life the worst Lore? It has the best damage spell, the best wizard buff spell and the best unit buff spell. How is that the worst Lore?

If sniping is regular I can see why the shield but that's only a 6+ save you're getting.

I said I get what you're doing with the Silver Helms.

21s are good but you've lost ASF so you take more damage these days.

Say 4 mourn fang hit the SMs. That's back rank gone to impact hits. With your 21 attacks back you do about 4 wounds. The Ogres kill 2.5 the Mourn fang another 5 plus nearly 3 dead to stomps. He wins combat by 14.

The White Lions? Same die to impact hits. 14 attacks back do 5 wounds with the razor standard. Then the Mourn fang kill the same as above and win combat by 13. Say you get lucky and do that 6th wound the 2 Mournfang still kill over 7 White Lions and you still lose by 9.

That extra rank makes all the difference. I know you're going to use your chaff to set up charges but so will your opponent. You've got great chaff and should win deployment. But your combat units will really struggle against your opponents as they are.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Heavens on the arch mage? Really?

 thedarkavenger wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Heavens on the arch mage? Really?

I am a huge fan of heavens as it is a better lore than most people give it credit for. I don't really need light as I am a high WS/I and already ASF. I don't need shadow to wound as I am high strength where it matters. I don't use life as I find it to be a bad lore. Metal would be good, but I'd prefer the rerolling 1s, -1 to hit(That stacks), and the option of forcing movement with comet. I also suspect that the missiles from the lore would be fairly effective at dealing with WoC disc characters.

HawaiiMatt wrote:


Heavens is good, but high magic is just awesome.

-Matt

 FlingitNow wrote:
So how many power dice are you expecting to get? You are paying for 13 spells. How on earth are you even attempting to cast half of them?

So if you get charged by a unit that is faster than you and vastly less points you accept the unit is gone? That is not a good way to play Warhammer. I can understand throw away 21s of White Lions or Sword Masters (though the current book seems to favour the former). But them as your ONLY combat units seems hopeful at best. Where as the PG are an Anvil that doesn't hold anything up with T3 and only 18 guys at 655pts I get a combat unit into your "anvil" and its game over. With so few wounds an Archer unit would do the same job as a bunker and contribute. That PG unit is sucking up points and delivering nothing.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
You're mistaken.
White Lions are still the safest place for the wizard.
Deploy narrow and deep, the wizard will be out of combat and the unit will be steadfast to the last man.

-Matt

 FlingitNow wrote:
So you're paying 280 points for a model you don't intend to use much. This is not an efficient way to build a list. Get something for those points that you'll actually use.

 FlingitNow wrote:
280 points for 3 Ws6 attacks or 70 points for the same. As a back up caster he needs to be your scroll caddy as you're spending 390 points for back up caster and scroll. That almost gets you Teclis. That is hugely inefficient. He is great as a main caster but far too many points as a back up particularly if you're buying a 3rd wizard for a scroll. If you want wyssans and spirit leech make your LvL1 beasts and take another back up mage and save yourself 160 points. You could get a Prince for that! Or Korhil!!!!

The Lore master with s ace because he's a decent fighter and wizard and allows you to save points by taking him instead of 2 characters. As a back up caster he's far too expensive.

 FlingitNow wrote:
But you could get Ld10 with any lord not just him. It is hugely inefficient to have him and not have him as your main caster.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
You're mistaken.
White Lions are still the safest place for the wizard.
Deploy narrow and deep, the wizard will be out of combat and the unit will be steadfast to the last man.

-Matt

I'd rather not risk my wizard being in combat. The number of times I've had a stubborn LD 10 unit run from combat means that I just can't chance it. Hence the defensive special slot with the ward save.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
You're mistaken.
White Lions are still the safest place for the wizard.
Deploy narrow and deep, the wizard will be out of combat and the unit will be steadfast to the last man.

-Matt

I'd rather not risk my wizard being in combat. The number of times I've had a stubborn LD 10 unit run from combat means that I just can't chance it. Hence the defensive special slot with the ward save.

So your 335 point Phoenix Guard unit isn't going into combat then? They're more likely to break, and panic comes up just as often for both.
The difference is, when combat comes, the white lions are stubborn, phoenix guard are not. Phoenix guard put the wizard in harms way. White Lions do not.

-Matt

 FlingitNow wrote:
Is he more efficient than a Lvl4. Well he has more spells as lvl is largely irrelevant in 8th and is also fighty. But has no uber spells. Is he efficient as a back up caster? Not even remotely. Does he do more than a Lvl1 well at nearly triple the points Id hope so. Is he worth it as a back up caster? Not even close.

The +4 for casting is pretty necessary.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Really? The Book is effectively another +2 to cast so it is +4 vs +6 and generally +4 is enough. If you don't think so then fine don't take the Loremaster. But taking him as a back up caster at 280 points is ludicrously wasteful in an army that is always short on points.

 FlingitNow wrote:
He really is wasted here. He's a decent combat character but not a challenge power house.

but the fact remains that he isn't good enough to be a primary caster.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Then don't take him. He's too many points to use as just a back up caster. If you don't rate him as a primary caster then don't take him. Use those points on something good. He is 230 points standard a Noble with his equipment is 78 points two thirds of his cost is purely on his spell casting. That means it is his primary function. If you don't rate him at that job don't take him.

 FlingitNow wrote:
He's still too many points to be a backup caster. Your list has loads of father in it and he's a big chunk of it. If you think your HElves can afford to go into battle with about 700 wasted points then go for it.

My advice is to not do this. But it is your list if you want to waste 700 points that's your choice.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
He's still too many points to be a backup caster. Your list has loads of father in it and he's a big chunk of it. If you think your HElves can afford to go into battle with about 700 wasted points then go for it.

My advice is to not do this. But it is your list if you want to waste 700 points that's your choice.

It isn't a waste, my swordsmasters get a character who can hold up in combat and cast magic. He fits a role in the army that is neither a backup caster, or a primary caster. There will be times when I use him for a phase, and times when I don't use him at all. He is in the list for the flexibility he supplies, which dropping him for a level 2 and a noble will remove.

It isn't a waste, my swordsmasters get a character who can hold up in combat and cast magic. He fits a role in the army that is neither a backup caster, or a primary caster. There will be times when I use him for a phase, and times when I don't use him at all. He is in the list for the flexibility he supplies, which dropping him for a level 2 and a noble will remove.

 FlingitNow wrote:

It isn't a waste, my swordsmasters get a character who can hold up in combat and cast magic. He fits a role in the army that is neither a backup caster, or a primary caster. There will be times when I use him for a phase, and times when I don't use him at all. He is in the list for the flexibility he supplies, which dropping him for a level 2 and a noble will remove.

Or in other words you're happy to have a 280 point character do not a lot most of the time in order to gain situational advantages.

Cool as I said if you are happy to waste all these points in your list go ahead. If you want to win games my advice is to be efficient.

 FlingitNow wrote:
I know what the Loremaster does. But to have 280 points for 1 spell isn't worth it. That's why lvl1 wizards are generally a third that cost. If you're looking to use multiple of his spells he ceases to be a secondary caster.

Either way it is a waste to have him AND a lvl4. Particularly if you then have a tertiary caster too and a 335pt combat unit doing nothing.

 FlingitNow wrote:
I'm well aware of the weaknesses of PG doesn't make them an efficient bunker unit. Again I see the benefits in the Loremaster but he's too many points to justify as a secondary caster again with another caster this is just made worse. You are starting the game with the intention of barely using 700 points. That is a waste one that the HE can't afford.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The book of Hoeth evens the score for dispelling against other Lvl4s. But if you don't like him then don't use him. But nearly 400 points on back up wizards is far too much.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
280 points for 3 Ws6 attacks or 70 points for the same. As a back up caster he needs to be your scroll caddy as you're spending 390 points for back up caster and scroll. That almost gets you Teclis. That is hugely inefficient. He is great as a main caster but far too many points as a back up particularly if you're buying a 3rd wizard for a scroll. If you want wyssans and spirit leech make your LvL1 beasts and take another back up mage and save yourself 160 points. You could get a Prince for that! Or Korhil!!!!

The Lore master with s ace because he's a decent fighter and wizard and allows you to save points by taking him instead of 2 characters. As a back up caster he's far too expensive.

You seem to be of the opinion that I am taking him to solely be a backup caster. I will be using him in combat, hence the armour. He is also my general so I get the LD 10 bubble. So I don't want him to also be my scroll caddy. As for the amount of points, if I get a lot of use out of him, which I will, he isn't a waste. There may be ways to get a better character, but with the heavens level 4, he synergises really well. As for Teclis and Korhil, they are fun for what they are, but I would rather take generic characters for their flexibility.