<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Changes to Ogre Hunters"]]>

<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Changes to Ogre Hunters"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/93.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Changes to Ogre Hunters
Therefore, I wonder if the following rules would help them be more useful?

Gone Wanderin'

While Ogre Hunters often join tribes for feasts and the occasional battle, their eternal wanderlust often means that they don't necessarily start the battle with the tribe.

Hunters gain the Ambush rule and may deploy in the same manner as Gorgers. This ability extends to a unit of Sabretusks joined by the Hunter.

Additional Wargear Options for Hunters:
.
Mournfang Mount + 70pts (note that a Hunter riding a Mournfang may not join a Sabretusk unit or use the Gone Wanderin' rule)

Bloodfang's Bashin Stick - 50pts (Hunters only - weapon upgrade)

This huge club was originally wielded by the famed hunter Morak Bloodfang and is capable of bringing down even the mightiest beasts with a single blow.
It counts as a great weapon with the Heroic Killing Blow rule.

A Hunter carrying the Bashin Stick may not take any magic items but may have a Big Name.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5625345.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5625345.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters
Gone Wanderin': I really like this idea. I think Ogres could benefit from more units than just Gorgers and (potentially) Maneaters having something akin to Scout or Ambush. With that said, Gorgers have ambush, not scout, so which do you think might prove better?

Mount: I think there may be a reason that there are no characters on Mournfangs. That would be a ridiculous combo. He'd have so many high strength attacks, not to mention his magic items, impact hits, and everything else, it might be just a bit too much. Don't get me wrong, I love this idea, and I would love to field something like this, but I think maybe the mount should cost more points? Or it might be too good at that point, I'm not sure.

Bashin' Stick: If made similar to the Blood Vulture, this could be an upgrade specific to hunters and could potentially break the rule of magic items. Similar to if a Bruiser takes a magical banner, he can't take other magical items (but can still take names).

Overall, I think these are awesome ideas. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5625407.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5625407.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters
Do you think that would be more useful than a Scouting Hunter who could potentially get a turn 1 charge off with good rolls (assuming the Scout rule allows for that)?

I have changed the Bashin' Stick to be a Hunter specific upgrade and to not allow a Hunter who uses it to take any magic items. Do you think this is fair or is it unnecessarily gimping the Hunter again?

I know that giving an Ogre character a Mournfang does make them hit much harder, but when you consider that a Hunter will have at best a 4+ armour save (light armour + thick skinned from the Mournfang) I don't think it is too bad.
I have also made it cost more than a Mournfang rider + mount does in the army list.

He is also forced to run around on his own so would likely be arrow or (especially) cannon fodder.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5625783.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5625783.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters
I like the idea of Ambush. I believe it follows similar rules to Reserves from 40k, so the unit may not come in on a specific turn, which I think fits the flair that you are going for here. I don't think Scout allows for turn 1 charges. Not sure though.

I think thats a good compromise for the Bashin' Stick. Make it comparable to the other weapons already listed in the ogre book.

True, I forgot he only has light armor. It mostly just the multitude of S5 attacks that the duo would be dishing out.

Still, I think its an excellent idea. Even if this was turned into a specific character (a la Skrag or something), it would be very cool. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5626206.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5626206.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters FW

And being able to get HKB would be extremely characterful and make Hunters far more enticing. Even to the extreme that any mundane weapon they used would have HKB

However here's how I would make the Ogre Hunter appear on the warhammer table again: make them Special or Rare choices. The absolute biggest detractor to taking Hunters is that they drain Hero points away from characters that are far more important to the army's cohesion. I dearly wanted to see Hunters become something viable in the new book ... but alas, all we got was a few weird shooting weapons that require rolling a lot of 6's to work

Ok, also mournfang packs. That's quasi-legit in itself.

- Salvage]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5626242.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5626242.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters BA.

Ok, but if he was to be moved to a special or rare choice, wouldn't his stat line have to change? Would he be too powerful to sit in one of those slots? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5626312.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5626312.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters
Mournfangs are the best MC in the game. They're pretty absurd and often comped in tournaments. I'd say concentrate on something else. GW could have easily made them mounts, but they didn't.

Ambushing with sabertusks is interesting.

How about something with traps too. Kind of a bigger version of gnoblar trappers. Like that O&G guy who slows your deployment. Or something else entirely.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5626326.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5626326.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters

DukeRustfield wrote:
How about something with traps too. Kind of a bigger version of gnoblar trappers. Like that O&G guy who slows your deployment. Or something else entirely.

I like the idea of a widespread battlefield ability being unlocked if you purchased a Hunter, would help justify his existence some.

I am inspired to check out Hunter + sabre pack builds again, so thanks for that guys

- Salvage]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5626350.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5626350.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters
With that said, I think the Mournfang is quite a bit to give out, but he can ride around on a Stonehorn, so whats the difference? I think its just making the points right.

At that point though he falls back into the same problem: what do you spend your points on? If he's a special, he's competing with mournfangs, leadbelchers, and maneaters now instead of hero choices.

Ya, ambushing sabretusks sounds pretty cool.

I think traps are cool, they just aren't ogre-like. Gnoblars get it because that is how they work, but ogres don't do that. They don't hunt their prey by setting traps, so this would seem a bit out of sorts. I do think, however, that finding him that one thing that makes him stand evenly with his other ogre-kin in important though. I'm just not sure what that rule would be. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5626361.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5626361.page GMT Re:Changes to Ogre Hunters I'd give the hunter BS5, and make his missile weapons a little better.
I'd give the hawk thing sniper and blind (model hit is WS1 BS for the next turn).
Harpoon could give a movement penalty to large targets for a turn.

-Matt]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5626775.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5626775.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5626947.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5626947.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters
I mean there is always the simple problem that Ogre heroes are a bit pricey and there's always better stuff to get. Once you get a tricked out SM, BSB, you're looking at another Bruiser or Butcher or Firebelly. The Hunter doesn't really have anything (much) over a Bruiser and he costs more.

They should both fit a niche. If Hunter = ranged, then work on that. But just making him a better Bruiser then makes Bruisers the new Hunters in that there's no reason to take them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5627000.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5627000.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters
I think we've stumbled on the heart of the problem: the hunter has no niche. He has these interesting ranged options (harpoon, vulture, etc.), but he can (and is the only one who can) join packs of sabretusks which do nothing for him at range.

Joining sabretusks does give him swiftstride and... vanguard? I think? So it tries to change that version of the hunter into a more melee styled character but it falls short. Meanwhile, if you take the vulture or any other ranged option and just leave him out and about, he isn't doing much.

So I think we have 2 things to consider:
1. Move the hunter to a special choice where he might be more useful.
2. Find a way to make the hunter fill some kind of niche. If he is supposed to be ranged, make his range better. If he is supposed to be melee, fix that. If he can do both, make someway to make him viable that way instead of mediocre in both. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5627032.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5627032.page GMT Re:Changes to Ogre Hunters
These options would make him alot more valuable while not making him to OP,

Hunter Movement 8 as he is accustom to finding the easiest path and moving swiftly across the country side, Tracking a traping all types of prey. (Can Keep up with Sabertusks)

Special rules
Pack master: A hunter can make a single Sabertusk pack core, and the hunter must join this unit and cannot leave it. May join other Sapertusk packs if this one is wiped out.

Tracking and Trapping: Hunters are skilled trackers and Trappers who will often wonder off and follow unseen tracks left by it prey, As such a hunter and any Sabertusk pack he joins has the ambusher special rule and Killing Blow (Hunter Only).

Unique Character: Following afore mentioned Options on the posts.

Sabertusk pack upgrade: Morak Bloodfang Is the most famed off all the hunters, one Sabertusk Pack of 2 or more may take Morak Bloodfang as a Unit Champion for 210 points Morak bloodFang make this pack core. (All points applied to Core) If you take Morak you may not take any other hunters. No other caracter my join Moraks Sabertusks, and Morak may not leave his Pack.

Morak Bloodfang is a hunter in all rights. Morak Rides atop Spike a Young Rinox.

Morak BloodFang M8 W5 BS4 S5 T5 W4 I3 A4 LD9
Spike: M8 W3 BS0 S5 T4 W1 I2 A2 LD1 Armored hide, +2 armor. When riding Spike, Morak cannot make stomp attacks.

Equipment: Heavy Armor, Bloodfangs Bashin Stick, Spike (young rinox)
Special Rules: Fear, Loner, Oger charge, Large Target, My will is Greater than yours. Master of the Pack
Bloodfang's Bashin Stick

This huge club was wielded by the famed hunter Morak Bloodfang and is capable of bringing down even the mightiest beasts with a single blow.
It counts as a great weapon with the Heroic Killing Blow and Stupidity. ( This adds a little drawback while adding a big upgrade)

My will is Greater than yours:

Sabertusk Packs within 12 inches of Morak may uses his leadership.

Master Of the Pack, Morak Bloodfangs Pack has the Fast Cavalry rules. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5627089.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5627089.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters
I like most of this except the mount. I'm not sure its necessary and seems to push it over the top to me. I could be wrong though.

I think staying with the normal rules he gets when joining Sabretusks is plenty. I think making them Fast Cavalry might be too much. They'd be able to do some pretty gnarly stuff at that point. Giving them ambush is a cool idea, and keeping the swiftstride and whatnot they normally get.

Again, I've only been into fantasy for the past few months. I'm not very knowledgeable of the other books and what their characters are like so I don't know how much stuff they get. I assume as long as they cost the right amount of points, it'd be ok. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5627242.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5627242.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters
Let me throw out some ideas:

1. Can Hunters March and Shoot? If you let them do that, even with their Harpoon Launcher, they'll get to shoot more often.
BS5 Hunters just seem a little wonky.

2. Harpoon Launcher: when a model takes one or more Wounds, it and the Hunter who wounded it must roll D6. Both models add their Strength value (the Hunter gets a +2 bonus). If the Hunter wins, the model cannot move during its next movement phase.

3. Blood Vulture: choose a model within range. Resolve 3 WS4 S4 close combat attacks against that model.

4. Traps: a Hunter may place one Trap token next to his base at any point during his Move. Any models that march, charge, flee, or pursue over a Trap token must pass a Dangerous Terrain test.
Any unit charging a Hunter must pass a Dangerous Terrain test.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5627313.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5627313.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters
Having them the same speed as sabertusks I think is a very good choice.

How about for trapping, can choose any enemy unit once a turn. If that unit moves in any way, charges, flees, etc. On a 4-6 it has to take a Dangerous Terrain test. Fluff being that he has traps placed all over. So the enemy know it's "trapped" and doesn't have to move. And it's not 100%. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5627373.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5627373.page GMT Re:Changes to Ogre Hunters GW has been going with the new books.

To Fix the Harpoon launcher

Harpoon launcher : At the very least the Harpoon needs to drop the move or fire, and should be changed to slow to fire, so he can still move and fire it, but not stand a shoot and should go back to being a bolt thrower, so it hits ranks.

For the Special Character I was basing it off the Beastmen Special Character that makes Centagors core. I am thinking about asking a couple guys to do some play testing with the rules for the hunter, dropping the mount. To see how he plays. Though without the mount I would say he is no longer a large target.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5627582.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5627582.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters MC.

I don't think there's any benefit in making sabertusks core. First off, it's an ogre army and the hunter isn't the general. So it doesn't even make sense they are core. Cuz they are the exact definition of not core (not general's personal pals).

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5627616.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5627616.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters

DukeRustfield wrote:
Oh sure, tons of people would love to field an all MF army. Those people are called anyone who likes to win at all costs. Why don't you put him on a big mountain donkey with normal horse stats? That's cavalry. Mournfangs aren't Cavalry they are MC.

I don't think there's any benefit in making sabertusks core. First off, it's an ogre army and the hunter isn't the general. So it doesn't even make sense they are core. Cuz they are the exact definition of not core (not general's personal pals).

So you do not like the Special Character, what about the change to a normal Hunter.
There was no attempt to make the Special character OP, or a must have, and he has nothing to do with mornfang. Besides Mournfang are Still just Cavalry for Orger’s, you really want Monsterous infantry riding normal horses? If you noticed I stayed away from mournfang all together, cause I agree any hero sitting on top of a mournfang is going to be OP unless there is some drawback or the points are so outrageous it is not worth it, again making the hunter pointless to take. So I looked at the Rinox pulling chariots and the ones form Forge World , then looking over the stats decided it was way too strong. So I dropped them a little bit. While still trying to stay with the Ogre Realm, One Unit of Sabertusks being Core is not going to stop you from having to take lots of Ogre/Iron guts as core, the max points of a sabertusk pack is in the 200’s and only one would be core. And a hunter cannot be the general, so you would still need a unit or two of some other MI to hide a general and BSB Keeping the Ogre feel, not to mention to fulfill your core. Sure at a smaller point game you could use this unit as core, and take all mourfang, but then your general and or BSB are sitting out in the open to be picked off, not a very good idea.

Getting past the issue that everyone wants there Army to table stomp everyone else, This is a Game, and this thread is about how to take a model that is almost pointless in this Addition, and making it playable. A hunter by default is not allowed to join any other units other than Sabertusk packs. So the only one to work with is Sabertusk Packs. How else do you use this model to upgrade the only unit he can join? Most of the other armies have a character that does something to another unit, so it is not like this is out of left field. Now I am Ok with not making a unit Core, If this is your only issue with the upgrades, then I guess I did a pretty good job of fixing the hunter.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5627673.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5627673.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters WoC army into monsters so you don't have to take any humans to fill your core limit, which wouldn't make sense in a Throgg army. That's fluff and gameplay and Trolls, while very powerful, have huge drawbacks.

If there was a SC hunter who had nothing but beasties, that would make sense to make sabers core. But it really doesn't provide much benefit. Your special limit is 50% and one sabertusk unit isn't massive. Or is that what you were saying? I thought someone was saying to make Hunters themselves Specials. You know, like 3 Hunters.

Hunter isn't almost pointless. He's nearly identical to a bruiser. Just a bit suckier.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5627714.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5627714.page GMT Re:Changes to Ogre Hunters
It is all about making the hunter better, and valuable option to take, the Special Character guy was to take rules that people seemed to be liking and give them to one model as not to allow it to be abused. I do not want to see lots of models running around with HKB, or the ogres changing to sabertusks. Just would like to see an option to allow for some more verity, what about a hunter can make a unit of Sabertusks core for a few more points? Though that does not feel right either, I don’t know how to make it better, another option that might fit is to allow a hunter to join a unit of maneatters? as their fluff has them traveling like the hunter. Though I really feel that the easiest and simplest change would be to simply make the Hunter move 8, the Harpoon launcher a bolt thrower that is slow to fire not move or shoot, and give him ambush, and KB. With this he becomes more playable while justifying the extra points and still stays true to the fluff and not OP. Might even consider raising the points a little to account for this, say maybe ten points, but not much more. Then taking the new 50 weapon above and making it a magical weapon so only one can be taken and for 50 points fills what a hunter can take, so you have a character that is really scarry in CC, but the odds of getting him there are very low, as he gets cannon sniped on turn one.

While I was writing this I had a thought, what about a hunter can take a unit of Gorgers 1-2, but must join them to keep them in line while on the battle field. Sort of like Scrag, but does not give the ability to ignore the restrictions. This would take 2 units that are very limited and turn them into one that could be good. But not great.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5627785.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5627785.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters SCs do that, not generic heroes. Grimgore Ironhide from O&G has to take Black Orcs, but they're still Specials.

Hunters and gorgers don't make sense at all. That's what Scrag is (and arguably not that great).

If you're going to buff hunters, concentrate on what they are and stay away from what others have already cornered. Ogres have Tyrants and Bruisers for their CC powerhouses. Hunters join sabertusks and have ranged and some movement abilities once joining.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5627970.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5627970.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters
- Increase M to 8
- Harpoon Launcher counts as a Move and Fire & Slow to Fire Bolt Thrower
- Gains Killing Blow on all mundane combat attacks
- Gains Gone Wanderin' Special Rule
- Gains Bloodfang's Bashin Stick as a Hunter specific weapon upgrade

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5628687.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5628687.page GMT Re:Changes to Ogre Hunters
Ogres don't really need a cavalry army. They already move faster than most units out of the box, an entire army of Mournfangs or some other option would be silly.

I still think the problem lies in that the hunter doesn't know what he wants to do. As was stated, the Tyrants and Bruisers fit the CC role, so why make a hunter do that as well? He needs to be good at shooting to make him a worthwhile choice. Ogres don't have any heroes that are really used for shooting. But the hunter does still need to do something with Sabretusks.

So here is my thoughts, piggy-backing off of what has been said:
- I think the Harpoon Launcher should be either Move and Fire or Bolt Thrower. Maybe both: if he doesn't move, it fires like a bolt thrower, if he does it loses that special rule.
- I still think giving him ambush might be a great idea.
- The Bashin' Stick still seems cool to me (though it feeds the problem of whether he should be CC or ranged). Perhaps changing it to a special type of Greatspear or harpoon launcher would fix that problem? Instead of a greatweapon's +2, it gives +1 and either KB or HKB.
- Someone mentioned Skragg and Gorgers. What if the hunter could have a similar ability?

It could be an upgrade you have to pay for.... I'm not sure what it would be, we'll just call it "Hunter's Pack Buff Machine" for now. So,
"Hunter's Pack Buff Machine"
Only one Hunter in your army may have this upgrade.
As the Hunter kills models in combat, he buffs himself and his sabretusks. Consult the following table, effects are cumulative: (here's where I lose this because I don't know what would be fair/reasonable, so I'm just throwing stuff in here)
2-3: Hunter and Sabretusks can reroll all To Hit rolls.
3-4: Hunter and Sabretusks can reroll all To Wound rolls.
5-6: Sabretusks gain the Killing Blow special rule.
7+: All Sabretusks within 18" of the Hunter can use the Hunter's leadership and are Stubborn.

Again, I don't know what buffs to give them, but it could be something. This way the hunter can stay at range and do his thing while still giving the sabretusks some kind of buff. He could still join a pack of them to give him some extra wounds. Perhaps one of the buffs could be that Sabretusks can make "look out, sir!" rolls for him or something.

I think we all have some great ideas. Keep it up!

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5629295.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5629295.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters KB sabertusks would be nuts. Even with Skragg, a 425 SC, you can only have 6 gorgers over the normal 3. By comparison you can have 30 sabertusks. With all those buffs they would be vastly better than normal ogres in terms of killyness. It's also a kind of table reserved for SCs like Scragg or Epidemius.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5630181.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5630181.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters
But this isn't a Special Character.

I think any changes should be simple and relatively minor. Here's the problem as I see it: it's not that Bruisers are better in CC than Hunters, it's that they're better in CC and they can be a BSB. How many ogre armies feature more than three characters?
Even if Hunters were good at shooting, they'd still be worse than their points worth of Ironblasters and Leadies.

I think giving the Hunter a small selection of abilities that revolve around controlling/trouble-shooting is key. Like letting the Blood Vulture pick out characters, or traps/harpoons hindering enemy movement.

Duke, your idea for Traps is intriguing. Do you think it's too different than the Gnoblar's abilities, though?I feel like they should function in the same way.

I don't necessarily think that an all-mounted Ogre army would be impossible to balance. But we should not look to the Hunter for that.
I also don't think we should be passing around Heroic Killing Blow to them, either. It doesn't really fit the theme, and it doesn't help them do something that Bruisers can't do.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5630337.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5630337.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters
Mounted ogre army is nearly impossible to balance. Other than Throgg they are the only MI army in the game. Super elite. Giving them 10-15pt horses, basically just speed and armor, would be pretty amazing on the low armor Ogres. Giving them MF I can't even think of an analogy. Like an army of 5 nurgle daemon princes?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5630394.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5630394.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters
I feel like taking the Gnoblar Trapper ability and adding on to it is a good place to start.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5630514.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5630514.page GMT Re:Changes to Ogre Hunters
Hunter New Stat line

M8 WS5 BS3 S5 T5 T2 I3 A4 LD9 130 points

Great throwing spear, Hand Weapon, Tanned Hide,
Tanned Hide 5+ armor save
Special Rules: Master of smaller beasts, Fear, Loner, Ogre Charge. Ambusher, Stubburn

Options Chose one
AHW - Same
Ironfist - Same
Great Weapon - Same
Harpoon Launcher – 25
Blood Vulture – 10
Hunter Club* - 50
May ride Stone horn +250
May Take magic Items – Same

* Replaces normal hand weapon may take a Ironfist

Hunters Club – 50. The hunters club is a Hand weapon that can be used either one-handed and may be used with a shield to parry, or may be used with two hands, and gains +1S, and is multiplied to D3 wounds on a Natural 6. (We went back and forth about making the D3 against any model or just against any Monstrous Infantry, Monstrous Cavalry, (Mount and Rider), Cavalry, Chariot, Swam, Monstrous Beast or War Beast or model form the beastman army book. ) In the end it was a close vote of 60/40 to make it any model as it seems more accurate to game play.

Other options that were discussed and removed were +1 BS, KB/HKB in CC via the Club and/or Harpoon at range. but where deamed to good for this point cost, AP for either, which we went back and forth on a number of times still up in the air. When it comes tot the Hunters Club making it a GW again seemed a little much as a GW is already available. And with the options above, It seemed ok to allow more than one. We did go bake and forth on this as was making it a magical Item, but in the end we decided that if we did you could not use it to get a parry, and the hunter was to track animals so D3 against and animal and not Characters (unless they are on/are Animals, and as such there was no need to make it magical.

Harpoon Launcher,
Hunters have spent many a moon learning to use the Harpoon launcher to its full potential. A Harpoon Launcher can be fired in two different ways,

Fair Game, (Lack of a better word) The Harpoon bay be fired as a bolt thrower with the following profile

Range 36” S6. Special Rules: Move or fire, Slow to fire, Multiple Wounds (D3)

I see my prey, the Harpoon Launcher may make a single shot as a crossbow with the following profile

Range 24” S8. Special Rules: Move or fire, Sniper, Multiple wounds (D6) May Stand and shoot if he did not fire the harpoon launcher in the previous turn.

Master of smaller Beasts: While a hunter is an a pack of Sabertusks, he is highly likely to sacrifice one of them to safe his own life, as such the Hunter may make a LOS as long as four or more Sabertusks are still in the pack, Any Sabetertusk Pack that a hunter Joins gains the Ambusher Special rule. Sabertusk Packs within 12" may uses his leadership.

The points cost for this guy will limit how many of them you could take, but in bigger games you could see him more widely used, but then you are still taking points form something else. As he sits right now, you have a good charater that can do some damage, but also has almost no same, and if not in a pack of Sabertusts (If with) is just waiting to get a cannonball to the face. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5630532.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5630532.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters WoC HellfireSword which is a 65pt item and you're making it a 50pt regular item (so they can still spend on magic). Just no.

Again, hunters shouldn't be melee. No one takes Hunters but also no one takes Tyrants.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5630780.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5630780.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters Hunters are not assassins, and they're not expert marksmen. They're trackers and trappers. They should be able to wage mini-wars all on their own. He's an Ogre, so he's got close combat covered.

All he needs are: updates to his shooting attacks and traps of some kind.
If we make his harpoon launcher a bolt thrower, we give him...a weapon that no one ever takes anyway.
Anyone got any other ideas as to how a harpoon-mechanic would work? I feel like the one I posted above is just a little too complicated.

How else could traps work?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5630829.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5630829.page GMT Re:Changes to Ogre Hunters CC army.

Now I accidently left off that the D3 wounds on the Ogre club is on a role of a 6 to wound. Also remember it is only +1S, the D3 does not work against infentry/war machines, Which is what you want if you are going to use him for if you ambush. The Idea is he goes out tracks, traps and kills all typed of Beasts of all types. .I have fixed it on the original post to show the D3 is on roll of a 6.. Tyrants are still the Better CC option, Butchers/fire bellies are still better due to casting, and you will always need a BSB for Ogres due to lower LD. All Ogres are by Nature really good in Combat do to Monstrous infantry, and we still talking about a guy who can get killed fairly easy by shooting/Magic and even in CC. Even as we build this guy, I was saying as the only person in the group who plays Ogres regularly, he is still a third/forth option for my Hero choice alone, and probably 12th on my list as a options to take over all, Now that is still way above where he was. Let’s look a the Ogre Heroes, First and foremost I must have a Bruiser BSB with points on options, Next I will need a backup wizard or two to carry my Dispel scroll, or Hell Heart, or both if I have kitted out my Slautermaster to be a wizard tyrant. And i normally do all of a sudden are all looking at 600+ points from the Hero section ( 500+ if I drop a wizard) now even at 3k, The earliest I could see taking this guy.
Lets discuss the ranged option.

I am now having to chose between him and an Iron Blaster, A guy that is less mobile, has a weaker ranged attack, And will kill about the same amount in CC as the Iron Blaster, The Iron Blaster has a better Armor save, Is more mobile, and will make its points back way faster with its extended range, higher strength attack, can move and shoot, and has the best grape shot in the game. Remember that I still have to add points to my core to go up to 3k. In fun Games I might take him, but in a tournament, I will take an Iron blaster 9 out of 10 times. This guy to be is by no means a must take, but does add some much needed versatility.

So now lets look at him as a CC Option,

We already said that a bruiser is the BSB, The 25 points for a BSB plus the points for Banner/equipment, however you prefer are more or less a wash and a must take, So I am going to go to the Tyrant. If you Equipt a Tyrant correctly, Yes he is a few more points, but he also Has access to a lot more, personally I think a Tyrant is overpriced for what he gives you anyway. But Still, He can be your General, has a better Weapons skill, and can be equipped a lot better options that make him way more of a killer than this Hunter. And most important his points come from the Lord not the Heroes section.

On my list of Priorities I have a slaughter master, a BSB, a second wizard, Core Requirements, Iron blaster(s) Mournfang, Sabertusks, Thundertusk, Maneaters, Leadbelchers, Stone horn, Then I would put him here, about on par with a Tyrant, more Iron blasters, and another wizard. Which is way above where he was before at the bottom with a Giant.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5631008.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5631008.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters CC. Please stop trying. You have 2 guys who already do that, one of whom isn't even used. If you start buffing hunter as a CC force, it makes Tyrants have no purpose at all and Bruisers only be the stupid guy who carries a banner.

He already has great combat stats, he doesn't need to be better at it.

No one takes a tyrant. Don't kid yourself. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5631306.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5631306.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters

DukeRustfield wrote:
Hunters aren't mega CC. Please stop trying. You have 2 guys who already do that, one of whom isn't even used. If you start buffing hunter as a CC force, it makes Tyrants have no purpose at all and Bruisers only be the stupid guy who carries a banner.

He already has great combat stats, he doesn't need to be better at it.

No one takes a tyrant. Don't kid yourself.

Your right, no one takes a Tyrant, but on that same note no one takes a Bruiser other than to be that stupid guy who carries a banner, Absolutely no one takes a hunter EVER in 8th ed. No one takes any of the Ogre Special Characters either. At above 3k, I take a Tyrant so I can get to LD 10 with that stupid guys who carry a banner, but below that point limit you are right. The point of the thread is to make the Hunter an option. Not OP, but better than what he is now, How is having a weapon that gives +1S when using it Two Handed so no Parry. ALA a halberd that on an off change you roll a 6, and it is not saved then gives you a 1-3 chance you can really do some damage to a single model.

How is this any better than giving a hunter a GW that he can already take at for basically 1/5th the cost Makes Him +2S and is less that ¼th cost? It’s not like the hunter is getting ASF, or and Init bonus. He still strikes after or at the same time as 85% of other models. The points cost for this sword is way above where they could be, If you take the rules, +1S, and the on 6s, D3 wounds to Beasts type models Again not everyone. This more of a 25 point Option, It is not magical so it can not hurt Ethereal models. Has no affect on 75% of models other than +1S and at a Hefty cost. I Guess I am not getting it. Normally I am one to say This is not a good Idea, But that is when you turn a model into something it is not buy giving it all the best options, and no drawback, This is a sword that gives a minor upgrade, cost a ton, Follows all the rules for creating a balanced weapon, and is on a model that will almost never get used, and is by no means OP.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5631424.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5631424.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters SCs aren't bad. Different books differ on how good they are. But Skrag can be playable. So can overtyrant. So can the maneater cuz of his variable magic items.

It's not his job, it's as simple as that. You can give him a HKB +30 attack weapon and he'll totally be "an option." It just doesn't make any sense. You're creating a standard item on a standard hero who isn't CC-heavy and you made it better than most magic items and him better than his true CC counterparts.

It's just not his job. You have 2 other units who are specifically designed for it. If you gave him the option of 4 spell levels it also wouldn't be his job and would be the same concept. His name is hunter, not tyrant. If his main, signature weapon is a club, how would he ever hunt anything? Every creature he might possibly hunt is as fast as him or faster. If something is too stupid (or so baddass) that it won't walk away from you, then use a great weapon.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5631552.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5631552.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5631805.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5631805.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters
I don't think looking at characters like this is productive at all. Why do people take characters? Because we have to take a general, and we want to have a BSB, and we want some magic.
Non-wizard characters are horrendously inefficient. Combat characters don't make their points back, and that's not the point. Characters are leaders. That's why we take them. And that's what makes the Hunter (and Assasins, and Slayers) such a difficult subject.

Hunters shouldn't be compared to other units. They should do something totally different. I'm still thinking that some kind of board-control is the way to go. Make Hunters do something that no one else can do, and suddenly it doesn't matter how much this-or-that costs, because there's no other options.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5632545.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5632545.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters He used to.

Hunters come back with the big game and often are messy about it. Gnoblars are thrilled to see hunters around, because they know that scraps a meat trail in their wake.

Gnoblar units with the trapper upgrade within 12" of a hunter may use his leadership.

Or we could go the typicaly rout for Proposed Rules. All gnoblars on the table gain a 3+ ward and heroic killing blow.

-Matt]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5632750.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5632750.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters
1+ ward and large template HKB.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5633214.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5633214.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters
Combined with Ambush from my Gone Wanderin' rule, I think a Hunter with a Tusk pack could be useful for turning up behind enemy lines and tying stuff up.

I am yet to use to a Hunter in my Ogre army because I don't have the model yet. I plan to kitbash one when I get the battleforce out of a spare Ogre mini.

Oh and I even take a Tyrant from time to time (but can admit that the SM is more competitive for a Lord choice).

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5637774.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5637774.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters 40k, the Space Wolf Rune Priest has an upgrade that allows him to put a familiar marker on the board during deployment. It counts as a unit for the purposes of where Scouts and the like can enter the board, and friendlies get a +1 when shooting if the target unit is in LoS of the marker.

Something like this would fit the hunter perfectly. One of his pets scouts the battlefield and calls out enemies and the like granting vision, some board control and bonuses. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5638443.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5638443.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters

magless wrote:
In 40k, the Space Wolf Rune Priest has an upgrade that allows him to put a familiar marker on the board during deployment. It counts as a unit for the purposes of where Scouts and the like can enter the board, and friendlies get a +1 when shooting if the target unit is in LoS of the marker.

Something like this would fit the hunter perfectly. One of his pets scouts the battlefield and calls out enemies and the like granting vision, some board control and bonuses.

Giving leadbelchers +1 to hit should not be an option.

-Matt]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5638665.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5638665.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5639224.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5639224.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5639271.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5639271.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5646903.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5646903.page GMT Changes to Ogre Hunters

DukeRustfield wrote:
Hunters are loners except for giant feral cats. It's even a special rule. So they shouldn't be buffing anyone other than said kitties.

Last edition hunters boosted gnoblars.
This edition they boost cats.

If you want to change rules, I see no problem adding fluff from last edition into rules for this edition.

-Matt]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5647819.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/527470/5647819.page GMT