<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Updating the Inquisition"]]>

<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Updating the Inquisition"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/16.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Updating the Inquisition
Some time ago, before the release of the current Grey Knights codex, the Inquisition was divided into three different Ordos, each with its own Order Militant to provide combat support, each operating independently. Background-wise, that was all rewritten in the new Grey Knights book; now the Inquisition is an afterthought tacked onto the Grey Knights, who have also been reduced to less than a third of their numbers and yet are supposedly the entire Inquisition's primary form of military support. Then the Sisters of Battle got a White Dwarf ruleset that divorced them from the Inquisition entirely, as well as adding in certain disagreeable elements to the rules.

Now I may be alone here, maybe not, but I'd like to see the return of the Inquisition as a viable, independent force with the capacity to use forces from the Orders Militant without being forced to depend them.

To this end, I am attempting to construct a set of three Inquisition fan Codexes, one each for the Ordo Hereticus, the Ordo Malleus, and the Ordo Xenos. Each Codex consists of a combination of the relevant Order Militant, Stormtrooper Regiment forces common to all three, and Inquisitors, Assassins, and potentially extra units from the Adeptus Arbites designed in such a way that a pure Order Militant force, a pure Stormtrooper Regiment force, and a mixed Inquisition force are all viable. To this end, however, certain elements of the currently existing lists need to be cut down on, and some others need expansion.

The lists of units likely being added to each of the Codexes are as follows:

Spoiler:

I have, however, run into several roadblocks that I am looking for outside input into:

General

* Aircraft: The Inquisition thematically tends towards smaller rapid-response forces as opposed to massive sluggish battle lines of heavy armor, but that means the issue of trying to stick lots of flyers and/or potentially flyers as Dedicated Transports needs to be addressed. The stats and prices could probably use some tweaking, for one; I'd like Valkyries to be a little cheaper and a little lighter-armored (11/11/10 instead of 12/12/10) if I'm going to use them as Dedicated Transports for Stormtroopers; the Aeronautica vehicles are a little better in that department. Vendettas present a problem, as-is they're staggeringly underpriced and upgunning the Valkyrie by that much while leaving its transport capacity untouched is kind of silly. My present idea is to make them work more like Falcons as opposed to Wave Serpents or Razorbacks as opposed to Rhinos; reduce the transport capacity, give them a broader weapon selection, and allow them to function as a middle-ground unit between Valkyries and Vultures. There's also the problem of BS3 on all the flyers, when Stormtroopers are BS4 and we're talking about an elite strike force, I'm probably going to up them all to BS4 with a price increase to reflect that. Any thoughts, complaints about Dedicated Transport flyers allowing for too much flying circus, the like? Proposed rules changes to Valks/Vendettas/Vultures, since they're the main focus of the Stormtrooper flying arsenal?

* Airborne Armies: The Inquisition seems like it'd lend itself to armies that make pretty heavy use of Reserves and rapid-strike forces in general, but Reserves can be unreliable (especially in short games); I'm thinking of giving them either the ability to start Hover Mode flyers on the table in skimmer mode or a rule that allows them to bring on half their flyers on turn one and half on turn two, or all on turn one or turn two, sort of like how Reserves in Apocalypse work and how Deathwing Assault works, leaning towards the second because the first seems like it'd just turn the table into a field of wrecked aircraft and people would be grumpy at me about "I spent $600 on flying transports for THIS?"

* Whatever happened to True Grit?: This used to give Grey Knights and Deathwatch Marines the extra two-weapon attack for having a bolter/storm bolter and a close-combat weapon, at the expense of losing the +1 Attack for charging. Now that I think of it, that's just +1A on the profile and no charge bonus, isn't it? Right. I'll do that, then.

* Teleport Homers: Where, and how plentiful? Grey Knights care about them a lot, maybe allow Malleus Stormtrooper sergeants access to teleport homers?

* Special Characters: Are there any people particularly like? Dislike? Suggestions for more? Remarks on like or dislike for Special Character squad leaders? Between the Grey Knights book, the Sisters of Battle White Dwarf article, and Forge World, I've got seven for the Ordo Malleus, four for the Ordo Hereticus, and two for the Ordo Xenos so far, but five of those are Inquisitors and five are Grey Knights, I'd rather have at least one or two Arbites characters and a couple of Stormtrooper characters, not to mention Deathwatch characters and actual Sisters of Battle instead of a Living Saint and two priests.

* The Arbites: Right now they're simply an extra Troop unit with a specific specialization (durability in close-range firefights) and a tentative HQ selection, should I expand on them in this list, leave them out entirely and make a separate expanded Arbites list for Allying with people, or leave them as they are?

Stormtrooper List

* Standard Armament: Stormtroopers in the Guard Codex are typically regarded as overpriced, since they're paying for AP3 guns(EDIT: Removed an inaccurate misreading of the rules); I'm considering dropping them back to the old rules' S3/AP5 hellguns and giving them the option to upgrade to bolters, shotguns, or hot-shot lasguns.

* Support Weaponry: Stormtroopers are traditionally stuck with a very short-ranged arsenal, in both the older rules and the new Guard Codex they are stuck with at most 24" range weapons. To increase their tactical utility and make them line up a little more with modern special forces (I will admit, however, that my knowledge of the subject comes mostly from playing Wargame: European Escalation/Airland Battle, anyone with more experience with small units operating independently, feel free to speak up and contradict me here), I'm considering giving them access to sniper rifles, infantry mortars, some form of light machine gun (smaller than a heavy bolter, multi-lasers and heavy stubbers are my prime candidates right now), and a weakened missile launcher variant capable of Skyfire to allow them to fill more battlefield roles. Any remarks on that or suggestions for more?

* Command Squads: My biggest issue here is Orders; of the six in the Guard Codex, FRFSRF, Incoming!, and Bring It Down! don't seem thematically appropriate, Get Back in the Fight! seems tactically irrelevant when considering Stormtroopers' superior Ld and the increased availability of Ld10/Fearless independent characters and increased-Ld bubbles among the Inquisition and the Orders Militant. Move! Move! Move! and Fire On My Target! sort of work, but I'm thinking it might be better to give Stormtrooper officers only one Order per turn to represent the fact that a Stormtrooper Company force on the battlefield is more likely to represent an individual platoon than an entire company due to increased points costs and the unavailability of the normal Guard platoon mechanic, which would allow the Stormtrooper Officers to use more powerful Orders. Right now I'm thinking an Order that allows a Stormtrooper squad to run/shoot or shoot/run in the same turn in the manner provided by their unique Apocalypse formation, and possibly one that allows them to disengage from close combat as per Hit and Run; any suggestions for more, keeping in mind that with Orders only available one per turn to HQ units these are going to appear only once or twice per turn?

Grey Knights

* Elites as Troops: The Special Characters' ability to allow you to use your Elites in Troops really needs to go or at least be toned down; I'm going to give Paladins and Purifiers 0-1 normally and allow Draigo and Crowe to lift that restriction, but leave them in Elites. Thoughts? Comments on the fitness of Paladins and Purifiers in the first place?

* Terminators: I get moving Terminators to Troops to give the Grey Knights more than one option, but that's not essential in a list with Arbites and Stormtroopers as extra Troops options, I'm on the fence about putting them back in Elites, and possibly merging them with Paladins for a Terminator unit that keeps WS5 but only has one Wound and is a little more affordable. Do we need separate Paladins and Terminators?

* Heavy Weapons: One of the old Grey Knights' really distinctive tricks was how Psycannons and Incinerators could ignore Invulnerable saves, I'm thinking of putting that back in. Also there's the question of where "+1S heavy bolter that ignores Inv saves and can fire as an Assault weapon at half range" turned into "half-range autocannon that can be fired twice with Rending every turn", fluff-wise the old one made more sense and I'd rather use that.

Deathwatch

* Special Ammunition: This is supposed to be the unique Deathwatch trick, but taking Codex: Space Marines and giving everyone the Sternguard special ammunition rule is probably a bit much, in bookkeping as well as trying to fairly price that. The old Deathwatch Kill-Team rules and the best fan Deathwatch rules I've seen allow the Deathwatch to use one specific type of special ammunition or regular bolter ammunition every turn, possibly with the option of buying a third fire mode; I'm thinking I'll stick with that. Any suggestions about different sorts of special ammunition?

* Preferred Enemy: This wasn't in the old Kill-Team PDF, but it was around as an option for Space Marines back in 4th edition and seems in-character. The biggest question now is whether to give the army Preferred Enemy against a chosen Xenos race for free, give it only to Veterans/Terminators, or make them pay for it?

* Horrible Misuse of Grenades: I have only seen this in one fan Codex on Scribd, but it put me in mind of the Starship Troopers movie and made me laugh, so I thought I'd bring it up: Allow Deathwatch Marines with Krak Grenades to make a single attack at Initiative 1 and Strength 6, hitting on a 4+ against Preferred Enemies or on a 6 otherwise, instead of normal attacks against Monstrous Creatures? Clever or dumb?

Sisters of Battle

* Generating Faith Points: There have been two official systems for this over the years, either give the army a Faith Point at the start of the game for every Faithful unit and give the Faith Points back when units die, or give the army d6 Faith Points per turn. Fan rules tend to either use one of those or give Faith Points per turn based on how large the army is, which leads to unnecessary bookkeeping. I'm thinking take a leaf out of Warhammer Fantasy's channeling power dice book and roll a die for every Faithful unit, modified by certain factors (presence of a Simulacrum (banner), presence of a Sister Superior (sergeant), proximity of characters), and just give the army a Faith Point for every one that is 6 or greater; it's a little more luck-dependent, but it's simpler and more scalable than the newer systems and allows the use of more Acts of Faith than the old system, which makes the whole army more versatile.

* Using Acts of Faith: The old book made you roll over or under the current squad size of the squad using the Act on 2d6, and the new one makes you roll 5+ on a die modified by the presence of a Superior and a Simulacrum, one of which is hard to keep track of and the other of which is a little too random to blow Faith Points on for my taste. From a gameplay perspective, I really feel like Acts ought to occur reliably, so I'm thinking they should be just a Ld test to use. Still some element of risk, but you've got a good chance of it working (assume Ld8 on a Sister, Ld9 on a Superior or a Celestian, and Ld10 on a Canoness).

* Availability of Acts: The old book had five Acts of Faith available to everyone, the new one has one per unit who can use them and each Act is only available to the unit that has it on their army list entry. I'm okay with allowing more Acts of Faith, but I'd rather they be a little more versatile than a single buff available to each unit; I'm thinking give every unit a list of three or four different available Acts. Thoughts, and suggestions on what should and shouldn't be Acts of Faith?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/532365/5716122.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/532365/5716122.page GMT Updating the Inquisition

AnomanderRake wrote:
* Standard Armament: Stormtroopers in the Guard Codex are typically regarded as overpriced, since they're paying for AP3 guns and are stuck with Gets Hot!; I'm considering dropping them back to the old rules' S3/AP5 hellguns and giving them the option to upgrade to bolters, shotguns, or hot-shot lasguns.

Are you saying HSLG have Gets Hot!? Because they don't. Either way I would be cool with an AP 5 lasgun by default with an option to take bolters, shotguns, and hot-shot lasguns.

* Support Weaponry: Stormtroopers are traditionally stuck with a very short-ranged arsenal, in both the older rules and the new Guard Codex they are stuck with at most 24" range weapons. To increase their tactical utility and make them line up a little more with modern special forces (I will admit, however, that my knowledge of the subject comes mostly from playing Wargame: European Escalation/Airland Battle, anyone with more experience with small units operating independently, feel free to speak up and contradict me here), I'm considering giving them access to sniper rifles, infantry mortars, some form of light machine gun (smaller than a heavy bolter, multi-lasers and heavy stubbers are my prime candidates right now), and a weakened missile launcher variant capable of Skyfire to allow them to fill more battlefield roles. Any remarks on that or suggestions for more?

FYI Mortars in the IG codex are generally considered the worst option despite being free. However, more heavy weapons would be nice. As long at they can be taken as frontline troops (so they don't have to deepstrike, infiltrate, or scout) I see no issues with this. As for the topic at hand, you could always use the default IG heavy weapons (mortar, heavy bolter, autocannon, missile launcher, lascannon), you could also toss in heavy flamers and if you want a lighter heavy bolter you could give them the option for heavy stubbers or just make a heavy lasgun or something as a squad support weapon.

* Command Squads: My biggest issue here is Orders; of the six in the Guard Codex, FRFSRF, Incoming!, and Bring It Down! don't seem thematically appropriate, Get Back in the Fight! seems tactically irrelevant when considering Stormtroopers' superior Ld and the increased availability of Ld10/Fearless independent characters and increased-Ld bubbles among the Inquisition and the Orders Militant. Move! Move! Move! and Fire On My Target! sort of work, but I'm thinking it might be better to give Stormtrooper officers only one Order per turn to represent the fact that a Stormtrooper Company force on the battlefield is more likely to represent an individual platoon than an entire company due to increased points costs and the unavailability of the normal Guard platoon mechanic, which would allow the Stormtrooper Officers to use more powerful Orders. Right now I'm thinking an Order that allows a Stormtrooper squad to run/shoot or shoot/run in the same turn in the manner provided by their unique Apocalypse formation, and possibly one that allows them to disengage from close combat as per Hit and Run; any suggestions for more, keeping in mind that with Orders only available one per turn to HQ units these are going to appear only once or twice per turn?

I think your orders should depend on how you want the storm troopers portrayed. In the IG codex they are the elites, the special forces, in the Inquisition they are the line troops, inferior to pretty much everyone else. In this vain I think you should go two routes with the orders, increased mobility and increased effectiveness of firepower. Move Move Move and maybe something that lets them move D6" in the assault phase could be nice for the former, for the latter maybe something that lets their weapons become pinning, perhaps call it "Suppressive Fire!" maybe something else to represent actively targeting weak spots (like the head or against vehicles, hatches) increasing their weapons' strength but decreasing accuracy.

But yeah, I like the idea, combining all the branches into the Grey Knights was a bad idea as was completely kicking them out of the Sisters of Battle codex.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/532365/5716160.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/532365/5716160.page GMT Updating the Inquisition

Buttons wrote:

AnomanderRake wrote:
* Standard Armament: Stormtroopers in the Guard Codex are typically regarded as overpriced, since they're paying for AP3 guns and are stuck with Gets Hot!; I'm considering dropping them back to the old rules' S3/AP5 hellguns and giving them the option to upgrade to bolters, shotguns, or hot-shot lasguns.

Are you saying HSLG have Gets Hot!? Because they don't. Either way I would be cool with an AP 3 lasgun by default with an option to take bolters, shotguns, and hot-shot lasguns.

* Support Weaponry: Stormtroopers are traditionally stuck with a very short-ranged arsenal, in both the older rules and the new Guard Codex they are stuck with at most 24" range weapons. To increase their tactical utility and make them line up a little more with modern special forces (I will admit, however, that my knowledge of the subject comes mostly from playing Wargame: European Escalation/Airland Battle, anyone with more experience with small units operating independently, feel free to speak up and contradict me here), I'm considering giving them access to sniper rifles, infantry mortars, some form of light machine gun (smaller than a heavy bolter, multi-lasers and heavy stubbers are my prime candidates right now), and a weakened missile launcher variant capable of Skyfire to allow them to fill more battlefield roles. Any remarks on that or suggestions for more?

* Command Squads: My biggest issue here is Orders; of the six in the Guard Codex, FRFSRF, Incoming!, and Bring It Down! don't seem thematically appropriate, Get Back in the Fight! seems tactically irrelevant when considering Stormtroopers' superior Ld and the increased availability of Ld10/Fearless independent characters and increased-Ld bubbles among the Inquisition and the Orders Militant. Move! Move! Move! and Fire On My Target! sort of work, but I'm thinking it might be better to give Stormtrooper officers only one Order per turn to represent the fact that a Stormtrooper Company force on the battlefield is more likely to represent an individual platoon than an entire company due to increased points costs and the unavailability of the normal Guard platoon mechanic, which would allow the Stormtrooper Officers to use more powerful Orders. Right now I'm thinking an Order that allows a Stormtrooper squad to run/shoot or shoot/run in the same turn in the manner provided by their unique Apocalypse formation, and possibly one that allows them to disengage from close combat as per Hit and Run; any suggestions for more, keeping in mind that with Orders only available one per turn to HQ units these are going to appear only once or twice per turn?

Misread the hot-shot lasguns, sorry, disregard that remark. Not sure where I got "gets hot!" stuck in my head from.

I mention mortars because I'm trying to base them off of real-life infantry support weapons, the 'lighter' suggestion is there more as a thematic note since regular Guard weapons are generally far too oversized to be believable in an Infiltrating or Valkyrie-mounted squad. Regular special weapons, heavy stubbers/laser heavy stubbers, sniper rifles, mortars, heavy flamers, and a light rocket/missile launcher of some sort (like modern-day man-portable surface-to-air missiles, RPGs, man-portable anti-tank missiles, that sort of thing) are the weapons that strike me as most appropriate in a squad that may be Infiltrating, parachuting, or crammed in a not-very-large transport aircraft. Perhaps mortars need something to make them more attractive? Alternate ammunition or a better rate of fire are my only ideas there.

I like the Suppressive Fire idea, though.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/532365/5716195.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/532365/5716195.page GMT Updating the Inquisition

AnomanderRake wrote:

I mention mortars because I'm trying to base them off of real-life infantry support weapons, the 'lighter' suggestion is there more as a thematic note since regular Guard weapons are generally far too oversized to be believable in an Infiltrating or Valkyrie-mounted squad. Regular special weapons, heavy stubbers/laser heavy stubbers, sniper rifles, mortars, heavy flamers, and a light rocket/missile launcher of some sort (like modern-day man-portable surface-to-air missiles, RPGs, man-portable anti-tank missiles, that sort of thing) are the weapons that strike me as most appropriate in a squad that may be Infiltrating, parachuting, or crammed in a not-very-large transport aircraft. Perhaps mortars need something to make them more attractive? Alternate ammunition or a better rate of fire are my only ideas there.

Alternative ammunition could work, perhaps Flare Rounds (cancels out the effects of night fighting over an area), maybe some sort of krak round. Also, on the topic of sniper rifles, I've often thought about a hot-shot long-las sniper rifle. Pretty much an AP 3 sniper rifle so that a squad armed with AP 3 weapons might have some reasons to take sniper rifles.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/532365/5716391.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/532365/5716391.page GMT Updating the Inquisition http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/532365/5716518.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/532365/5716518.page GMT Updating the Inquisition
Also, to get nitpicky, there are a number of things that are more factually out of date or inaccurate:

" Horrible Misuse of Grenades" - you can use grenades in melee already. This is just no longer needed.

And if I can get a little SoB hot under the collar, but no, Dominions are NOT just Sisters. They have outflanking and scouting, and in the current codex are amongst the best units. So yeah, please don't take these away. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/532365/5716538.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/532365/5716538.page GMT Updating the Inquisition What to people think the Ordo Hereticus Chamber Militant was before Codex Witch Hunters retconned the Sisters into the position.
Because the Sisters were not them prior to April 2004.

The original plan GW had was to have three Ordo books and the reason the third, Alien Hunters, didn't happen and why Sisters were in the second, Witch Hunters is for one reason.

The Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus was an unnamed Adeptus Astartes Chapter.

GW could not find a way to make them different enough to justify adding ultimately two new Marine codices into Warhammer 40,000.

The Sisters were chosen to retconned out the previous Chamber Militant because
1, They were not Marines.
2, They were well overdue for an update
3, Their fluff was close enough to make this retcon seem justified and change very little.

As the Sisters have now been removed from the Inquisition, why not just reintroduce the original Chamber Militant. A new Marine chapter?

Those who wish to seek a Source for all this, it's from the old Inquisitor 54mm skirmish game.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/532365/5716922.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/532365/5716922.page GMT Re:Updating the Inquisition GK weapons should probably not ignore invulnerable saves as this would make them ridiculously good against daemon, even more so than at the moment. To tone down the use of Paladins and Purifiers you could use the same procesure as in the ork codex that one HQ allows one unit to be taken as troops and if you don't want them scoring just come up with a rule that says they are to busy vanquishing the daemons to bother with wordly objectives. My personal opinion is that the dreadknight should stay but it is mostly because I like the model and the fluff.

To make Valkyries and Vendettas AV 11/11/10 should not be a problem as the background for them says that their armour is reinforced if the fliers are attached to a guard regiment for a longer period of time. So they could be AV 11 and for a certain price they could be upgunned to AV12.

Oh and grenades can already be used in CC with vehicles and monstrous creatures but as the Deathwatch is trained to kill these kind of monsters you could give them the ability to make two attacks in stead of one when using grenades in CC against MCs]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/532365/5717239.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/532365/5717239.page GMT Updating the Inquisition
I'd like to use the Sisters of Battle because I'm trying to adjust older rules rather than construct new ones from scratch and because the Sisters as they exist could use some changes, but if there's enough on this alternate Order Militant to build a list from I'm open to examining it.

All right, I will reexamine the role of Dominions and Dreadknights.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the relationship between the Adepta Sororitas and the Ordo Hereticus isn't really supported by the Codexes, but it is given weight in the background material in Fantasy Flight's Dark Heresy books on the subject; they make mention of the Convocation of Nephilim, where both the Ordo Hereticus and the Adepta Sororitas were formally founded after the death of Vandire, and that the founders of the two organizations were both given a common but unspecified mission by an unnamed party and apparently directed to cooperate.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/532365/5717966.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/532365/5717966.page GMT Updating the Inquisition

Kettu wrote:

As the Sisters have now been removed from the Inquisition, why not just reintroduce the original Chamber Militant. A new Marine chapter?

Page 180 of the rulebook disagrees with you.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/532365/5719322.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/532365/5719322.page GMT