<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon"]]>

<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon IG since 3rd edition, and all I've ever heard is how bad the GL is. I however have not found it to be so... horrible.

Is it great? No. Powerful? No. Useful? Yes. Cheap? Yes.

Maybe I'm from a different generation of IG player who believes in cheapness above everything, but something that can throw out a S6 shot, or a small blast S3 is not bad for 5 pts.

I build my army around my specialized units (ie: LRMBTs, drop Stormtroopers w/melta) I combine that with 2 CCS w/ MoO. The GL has proven at least in my neck of the woods, to be useful in the utility aspect with platoons.

I have things that can take out heavy armor (Stormtroopers), I have things that take out hordes/Hvy Infantry (LRMBTs), I have anti Light infantry (Guardsmen)

And here is where the GL comes into play:
For 5 pts per squad you can:

*Shoot at light armor (transports, AV 10/11/12) if there are no infantry to target, plus you dont have to target these with your STs, or LRMBTs

*if there are infantry to target, you can fire a small blast that could hit more then 2 models, without having to use your BS to hit

*You can maneuver you S6 shot for a better hit location since its an assault weapon

*Instant death T3 Characters

*Increase threat potential against Monstrous Creatures

I've just never understood the dislike of the lowly GL, its definitely not a specialized weapon per se, but its definitely is a threat multiplier and it makes your platoons a more all around threat and more able to support your specialized units, while also allowing to have decent power, at low points for a 24" Assault weapon.

Would I give Vets or SWS GLs? No, they should be specialized, but Platoons, at least for my set up, its makes them a good General Infantry unit.

Just my opinion on it however,
Comrade]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5748439.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5748439.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Comrade wrote:
Maybe I'm from a different generation of IG player who believes in cheapness above everything, but something that can throw out a S6 shot, or a small blast S3 is not bad for 5 pts.

What you're ignoring is carrier cost. A cheap squad with GL + AC costs you 65 points, a squad with a melta + AC costs you 70 points. So for a mere 7.6% increase in points for the unit you can upgrade the garbage weapon to a powerful one.

*Shoot at light armor (transports, AV 10/11/12) if there are no infantry to target, plus you dont have to target these with your STs, or LRMBTs

You can shoot them, but not effectively. Even against AV 10 single STR 6 AP 4 shots have a very low chance of success, and they're almost entirely worthless against AV 12.

*if there are infantry to target, you can fire a small blast that could hit more then 2 models, without having to use your BS to hit

If you play against people who pack their models in as close as possible maybe. If they spread out at maximum coherency you're only getting one model per shot. And since a lasgun can fire twice inside 12" (average of one hit) you're paying points and wasting a melta slot to get a weapon that isn't really better than a lasgun.

*You can maneuver you S6 shot for a better hit location since its an assault weapon

So can melta and plasma, which will do a lot more once you move into that better location.

*Instant death T3 Characters

So can melta and plasma, while ignoring their armor saves and being much more useful against other targets. And melta even does it against T4.

*Increase threat potential against Monstrous Creatures

GLs are a laughable "threat" against MCs. 4+ to hit, 4+ (or worse) to wound, and AP 4 doesn't ignore armor saves. Plasma and melta do this better.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5748484.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5748484.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Peregrine wrote:
all the stuff that's correct

I think it's amusing that people consider the small blast a bonus over the lasgun. You're paying 5pts for something that's less effective, and can't benefit from FRFSRF.

OP all your original points seem to be based on subjective guesswork, why don't you do a cost and efficacy comparison between the guard special weapons? You'll see why people don't touch GLs with a barge pole. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5748645.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5748645.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon GL itself is not BAD, and its better then the lasgun itself.
But you are wasting a slot that can hold an actual GOOD gun on something that is, at best, medicore.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5748686.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5748686.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon gl vs. Lasgun at 12"24" w/ and w/o FRF . but I cant
upload yet typing on my phone.

but..... I wish to point out that I do not disagree on the power of meltas or plasma, but I don't think either belongs in a mobile platoon. These weapons should be dedicated to bs4 models such as vets stormies or in dedicated special weapon sqused.

same thing for heavy weapons. Mainly good for hwt rather
then combined platoons.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749370.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749370.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Comrade wrote:
Alright, I made a spreadsheet. with gl vs. Lasgun at 12"24" w/ and w/o FRF . but I cant
upload yet typing on my phone.

but..... I wish to point out that I do not disagree on the power of meltas or plasma, but I don't think either belongs in a mobile platoon. These weapons should be dedicated to bs4 models such as vets stormies or in dedicated special weapon sqused.

Why not just put them in both? It's the guard. Hand out those powerful weapons like candy.If the gun of the specialist is worth less than the guardsmen that's carring it, give the guardsman a bigger gun.

Sure, it's BS3, but that's why you just take more to compensate for that low ballistics skill.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749382.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749382.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon mc/hvy infantry (plasma)

A GL supplements the anti light infantry role of a combined platoon, while allowing it if necessary take a anti light armor role or low AP anti mc role.

meltas are a dedicated anti tank gun. it restricted to 12". and its twice the cost of a gl.

plasma guns, while wonderful.... I really do love plasma guns. the cost of one can arm a 30 man combined platoon with 3x grenade launchers. plus it blows up. I reserve these for pcs. sws and vets.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749428.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749428.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Comrade wrote:
A GL supplements the anti light infantry role of a combined platoon, while allowing it if necessary take a anti light armor role or low AP anti mc role.

Except it doesn't do better at anti-light-infantry than a melta gun (wound on a 2+, no armor save) and does significantly worse than a plasma gun (half as many shots). And it is horrible at anything else, while melta/plasma are legitimate multi-role weapons.

meltas are a dedicated anti tank gun. it restricted to 12". and its twice the cost of a gl.

Again, you're ignoring the carrier cost. A platoon squad with a GL is 55 points, a platoon squad with a melta gun is 60 points. That's a 10% increase in cost and way more than a 10% increase in effectiveness.

plasma guns, while wonderful.... I really do love plasma guns. the cost of one can arm a 30 man combined platoon with 3x grenade launchers.

And that single plasma gun will do more than the three grenade launchers. Not that this is the choice you have to make, since you can put three plasma guns in the blob squad.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749523.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749523.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon GLs and MLs, lots of tanks and arty, sentinels with plascannons, etc-- and it didn't do so bad (it won at any rate). But with just one game and it was in the previous edition, I can't say with any honesty that it'd be truly any good.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749701.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749701.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749720.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749720.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon HWTs, if I remember correctly, because of certain rules they have.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749729.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749729.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Peregrine wrote:

Stuff that makes sense.

@Comrade: Don't look at it as 5 points for a GL or 10 points for melta. Look at it as 55 points for GL and 60 points for a melta. Unless you take a boatload of GL's, you're not going to have the points for something more worthwhile. And even if you do, those points would be better spend upgrading all the GL's to meltas instead of purchasing another squad with a GL.

It's literally a case of "anything you can do I can do better." accept replace "you" with "GL" and "I" with "Plasma" or "Melta."

Example:

And here is where the GL comes into play:
For 5 pts per squad you can:

*Shoot at light armor (transports, AV 10/11/12) if there are no infantry to target, plus you dont have to target these with your STs, or LRMBTs
-For an additional 5 points, you can do all that better with +2 on the damage chart, have the melta special rule, take out terminators with that low AP and insta-death T4 models, like crisis suits.

*if there are infantry to target, you can fire a small blast that could hit more then 2 models, without having to use your BS to hit
-Actually, I'm pretty sure the basic lasgun kills infantry better than the blast (within rapid fire.) Combine this with the order to FRFSRF, and your lasguns are always just as, with the potential to be more effective than a blast GL. In essence, you're paying 5 more points for a weapon that does as much as a lasgun. With melta or plasma, you can better engage elite infantry.

*You can maneuver you S6 shot for a better hit location since its an assault weapon
-For an additional 5 points, you get +2 str and AP1, and an additional d6 pen within six inches. Also, with 6th ED rapid-fire rules, rapid-fire suffers no range reduction, so plasma can do this too.

*Instant death T3 Characters
-For an additinal 5 points, you can ID toughness 4 characters, and have a better AP, to boot.

*Increase threat potential against Monstrous Creatures
-When did GL's become a threat to MC's? For an additional 5 points, you can bypass a MC's armor save, and for an additional 10, you can actually have a threat to MC's.

Now, it's up to you whether to take melta or plasma, as those both have their pro's and con's, but goodness, at least stick a melta instead of a GL, or even use a flamer, as those have a specific role to fulfill, and can help with overwatch in large quantities.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749801.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749801.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Melissia wrote:
Mortars are best in HWTs, if I remember correctly, because of certain rules they have.

Probably the rule that if you're using your barrage weapons properly by hiding them out of LOS the rest of the unit can't shoot, so you want units of pure barrage weapons.

Of course mortars still suck no matter where you put them, but at least mortar HWS are slightly less awful than mortars in other places.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749802.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749802.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749824.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749824.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Melissia wrote:
Taht and it frees up a squad of guardsmen to carry something else.

That's assuming you want mortars in your list at all. You don't.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749840.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749840.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon GL. Just the fact that it's a template weapon is enough to make me want it more. D3 auto-hits on overwatch is really nice.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749848.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749848.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749852.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749852.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Anpu42 wrote:
I inherited three Squads with Grenade Launchers and Mortars and decided to field them. I have fount the 6 small blast markers to actually been useful in breaking up Ork Mobs and Gaunt Hordes.

Really? Do your opponents think that maximum coherency is 0.00001" instead of 2"? Because if you get one hit per blast (keep in mind that the radius of the blast is much less than the distance between the center of a model and the base of the next closest model at maximum coherency distance) your six blasts are only killing three models, two if they have a KFF or other non-LOS cover save. That's not even close to being a meaningful anti-horde weapon, and you're actually doing more damage to a horde by taking no upgrade weapons at all and just using FRFSRF lasguns.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749866.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749866.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Peregrine wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:
I inherited three Squads with Grenade Launchers and Mortars and decided to field them. I have fount the 6 small blast markers to actually been useful in breaking up Ork Mobs and Gaunt Hordes.

Actually I have found 2” Coherency being maintained in heavy terrain is hard to achieve in a lot of cases, especial with 30 models involved.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749883.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749883.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon
instead of buying grenade launchers, you can buy extra squad and make a huge infantry blob, use the pcs with a pwoer fist]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749916.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5749916.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Anpu42 wrote:

Peregrine wrote:
Anpu42 wrote:
I inherited three Squads with Grenade Launchers and Mortars and decided to field them. I have fount the 6 small blast markers to actually been useful in breaking up Ork Mobs and Gaunt Hordes.

Really? Do your opponents think that maximum coherency is 0.00001" instead of 2"? Because if you get one hit per blast (keep in mind that the radius of the blast is much less than the distance between the center of a model and the base of the next closest model at maximum coherency distance) your six blasts are only killing three models, two if they have a KFF or other non-LOS cover save. That's not even close to being a meaningful anti-horde weapon, and you're actually doing more damage to a horde by taking no upgrade weapons at all and just using FRFSRF lasguns.

Actually I have found 2” Coherency being maintained in heavy terrain is hard to achieve in a lot of cases, especial with 30 models involved.

Peregrine plays in a meta where everyone is always in perfect 2" coherency/displacement.

Not to discount any of his other, more valid points. But in a game, models sometimes get scrunched up together.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5750319.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5750319.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

HisDivineShadow wrote:
Peregrine plays in a meta where everyone is always in perfect 2" coherency/displacement.

I never said it's always a perfect 2", but usually people manage at least 1" and are well aware of the need to space out against a blast-heavy IG army. All of the arguments in favor of mortars and grenade launchers tend to assume a much tighter cluster of models, which is a rare and unusual situation.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5750334.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5750334.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon
The fact that you have two weapon fire modes is a false choice. The grenade launcher is a one-shot S6 weapon that has the ability to revert back to a regular lasgun.

As has been mentioned, a single S6 shot isn't going to kill much, especially with only being Ap4. Honestly, the only time I could see it being even remotely worth having is in a case of a bargain carrier cost on a squad that's not ideal for plasma guns. As best I can tell, this relegates them to SWSs and PCSs. As PCSs can take heavy weapons, this means that you're only ever taking two of them, and SWSs just aren't really worth taking anyways.

Because even at their low cost, 50 points for 3 BS3 24" S6 shots on a super-flimsy chassis aren't that great. I mean, by that point you might as well take a multilaser armored sentinel, and that's saying something.

Plus, anywhere you can take a grenade launcher, you can take a sniper rifle. The latter is a little bit more awful against vehicles and light infantry, but at least you have better range, and a chance to rend. Plus, with all the MCs we're starting to see, something with 4+ poisoned is actually starting to get vaguely useful.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5750350.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5750350.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Ailaros wrote:
Honestly, the only time I could see it being even remotely worth having is in a case of a bargain carrier cost on a squad that's not ideal for plasma guns. As best I can tell, this relegates them to SWSs and PCSs. As PCSs can take heavy weapons, this means that you're only ever taking two of them, and SWSs just aren't really worth taking anyways.

And even the PCS isn't a viable option, since it's much better to give it 4x flamers and put it in a Vendetta.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5750409.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5750409.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon
I used to have great luck with Grenade Launchers when they were being carried by Inquisitorial Storm Troopers in my Witch Hunters list. But that's got as much to do with the fact that squad could do no wrong (they once saw off a mob of 20 lesser daemons in a single round of close combat) as the power of grenade launchers.

Me? I use grenade launchers because I use third party miniatures that only have the special weapons choices of GL or Sniper Rifle and haven't got enough plasma or inferno pistols to convert them all to plas/mel yet (the models are truescale, so standard weapons look way too big on them).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5750662.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5750662.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Furyou Miko wrote:
Isn't the Veteran squad with 3x Flamer and 1x Heavy Flamer a better option for your Vendetta?

No, because it costs a lot more points to get BS 4 when it doesn't matter, and heavy flamers are never worth the points. The reason you take the PCS is because it's cheap and the PCS is otherwise useless. If you're going to take vets you take melta/plasma.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5750669.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5750669.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon lol. What I get for posting first thing in the morning.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5750672.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5750672.page GMT Re:Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon GL are not good, but I have included some for pure fluff reasons. I have Catachans and GLs fit well with their look, reminding me of the soldiers in Predator. Second, the older rulebooks and codexes always rated plasma weapons as rare, so I only have a few for my guard. Hell, I even rarely use two plasmas for my Grey Hunters squads because of this.....and my extremely bad luck with Gets Hot

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5751621.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5751621.page GMT Re:Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Ragnar69 wrote:
Yeah, GL are not good, but I have included some for pure fluff reasons. I have Catachans and GLs fit well with their look, reminding me of the soldiers in Predator. Second, the older rulebooks and codexes always rated plasma weapons as rare, so I only have a few for my guard. Hell, I even rarely use two plasmas for my Grey Hunters squads because of this.....and my extremely bad luck with Gets Hot

I am sorry to hear that about you a Plasma.
The Minis I have with my Grenade Launchers can also double as Plasma or Melta [I love 3rd party stuff], but they have this very Vetnam look to them., though if I could get some Flamers or somthing to use as Heavy Bolters or Auto Cannons I might go that way. If so I would go with Special Weapon and Heavy Weapon Squads with my Mortatrs and Grenade Launchers.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5751734.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5751734.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon GL doesnt mean anything if the GL in itself is too underwhelmed to take out light tanks or MC or large groups of light infantry]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5751760.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5751760.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5751791.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5751791.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

TheCustomLime wrote:
Besides not being able to buy meltagun bitz I really don't see the point in Grenade Launchers (Other than they look cool). If you want small blast template spam get some Plasma Cannons on your russes and make terminators cry. If you want something something one shot that can ding vehicles, infantry and monstrous creatures get a meltagun (Which can one shot most infantry models and vehicles). If you want something that's fairly versatile then get a Plasmagun. Heck, if you really, really are against the idea of Plasma/Melta give them a flamer. At least then it's a template weapon that can actually put down some hurt.

I agree with the Plasma Guns being one of the better choices for Gun Line, though I find the range of the Melta makes this tough to fight at range.
The one thing Grenade Launchers have is a 24” range, putting in the same range as the Plasma Guns [and Las Guns], but cheaper.
I think it is priced right for the job it does at least compared to Melta-Guns and Plasma-Guns.
The other choices are the Flamer and the Sniper Rifle.
Flamer: Personally I feel that if get to fire your Flamer something has gone horribly wrong! Though it can make a deterrent from being Assaulted.
Sniper Rifle: The Range is great and mixes well with some of the Heavy Weapon choices, though the low BS removes some of its effectiveness. It does make a good choice actually for Monstrous Creatures at range.
Grenade Launcher: It can [note the key word: CAN] be effect, but not all by itself, you need something like a Missile Launcher or a Mortar to get the best effect.
Melta-Gun: To short of range for Gunlines in my opinion.
Plasma Gun: The Best Choice, but it cost 3x as munch as the Grenade Launcher and 3x as effective.

Now you should support the Grenade Launcher/Mortar combination with something like Melta Vets or lots of Heave Weapons Squads.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5751982.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5751982.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Comrade wrote:
Ok, so I've been playing IG since 3rd edition, and all I've ever heard is how bad the GL is. I however have not found it to be so... horrible.

Is it great? No. Powerful? No. Useful? Yes. Cheap? Yes.

Just because louder voices than yours claim that a weapon/unit is completely useless in the game doesn't actually mean that they really are useless. Obviously they work for you and that is all that matters in my book. Quality of quantity has its place in the IG ranks. Fewer points spent on special weapons in a few squads adds up to points for another squad. Is the GL the best special weapon in the game? Not even remotely, but is it usable to positive effect, most definitely.

Skriker]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5752203.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5752203.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon
Having said that, the only reason I field grenade launchers is because I happen to have a lot of the models, and since they're metal, I'm not really a fan of chopping them up.

If I needed the points elsewhere, they're the first things to go though.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5752381.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5752381.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon They are not great, compared to other models, but they are weapons you can field when you want to keep things cheap.

A platoon command squad with 4 Grenade Launchers is 50 points, which CAN pack a decent punch and still hang back to give orders to the guys in front of him.

In the end, the cheapness is the only advantage of the grenade launcher over the other options and it's the reason why I take them. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5752869.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5752869.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Skriker wrote:
Just because louder voices than yours claim that a weapon/unit is completely useless in the game doesn't actually mean that they really are useless.

No, the fact that they are useless means that they're useless. Those louder voices just mean that the uselessness is so obvious that even Ailaros and I, who would fight to the death on pretty much anything IG-related, can agree on it.

Obviously they work for you and that is all that matters in my book.

No it isn't. "Works for me" ignores the fact that another weapon would work better.

Quality of quantity has its place in the IG ranks. Fewer points spent on special weapons in a few squads adds up to points for another squad.

Except you're not really getting any extra quantity out of GLs unless you ignore carrier costs. A platoon squad with an AC and GL (the standard "cheap" option) costs 65 points, one with AC and melta costs 70 points. You'd have to take 13 infantry squads for the saved points to add up to an entire additional unit, and even then the AC + melta squads would be much more effective than the slightly larger number of AC + GL squads.

loner wrote:
A platoon command squad with 4 Grenade Launchers is 50 points, which CAN pack a decent punch and still hang back to give orders to the guys in front of him.

You have a strange definition of "punch" if four BS 3 grenade launchers counts.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5753599.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5753599.page GMT Re:Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon
Not to mention the use of a Frag round on a GL removes the whole horrid BS3 of a guardsmen. (maybe not completely, but most of the time, you can maybe get some more models on a scatter then a hit)

if my math is correct, that only at the lowest possible hits per frag round is the GL less superior then a FRF lasgun, at 2 hits its better, and at 3 hits its double the effect, and thats at FRF at 12", at 24" it is equal to the FRF lasgun at 1 hit, double effective at 2 hits, and 3 times the effect at 3 hits.

Plus it has the ability to fire a S6 shot (which is underwhelming compared to lasguns at anything less then T5)

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5754150.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5754150.page GMT Re:Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Comrade wrote:
Peregrine: Combining a 12" dedicated anti tank assault weapon and a 48" Light/medium anti tank gun in a squad full of anti light infantry guns (lasguns) doesn't seem like a smart move at all, not to mention to use the whole effect you have to stay still, and then your probably wasting the Melta gun

It makes more sense than combining a 48" light/medium anti tank gun with a gun that just sucks at everything. No matter what else the squad has the grenade launcher is always a bad choice.

Not to mention the use of a Frag round on a GL removes the whole horrid BS3 of a guardsmen.

Except it only has one shot. One auto-hit shot is worse than 2-3 shots at BS 3.

if my math is correct, that only at the lowest possible hits per frag round is the GL less superior then a FRF lasgun, at 2 hits its better, and at 3 hits its double the effect, and thats at FRF at 12", at 24" it is equal to the FRF lasgun at 1 hit, double effective at 2 hits, and 3 times the effect at 3 hits.

The point is it's a marginal upgrade over a lasgun, if it's even an upgrade at all. Why are you spending a melta/plasma slot on adding a double lasgun to the squad?

Plus it has the ability to fire a S6 shot (which is underwhelming compared to lasguns at anything less then T5)

And that STR 6 shot is worse in every way than melta/plasma.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5754201.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5754201.page GMT Re:Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon GL.

I'm not saying its better in every way then a Plasma gun, or a melta gun, I'm saying that those should be in a dedicated unit, such as Veterans.

Platoon squads, especially a mobile combined platoon, have more of a Anti Light infantry, at least that is how I use them, it appears that me an you do not use platoon squads in the same manner.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5754211.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5754211.page GMT Re:Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Comrade wrote:
You appear to have an extreme hatred of a GL.

I'm not saying its better in every way then a Plasma gun, or a melta gun, I'm saying that those should be in a dedicated unit, such as Veterans.

Platoon squads, especially a mobile combined platoon, have more of a Anti Light infantry, at least that is how I use them, it appears that me an you do not use platoon squads in the same manner.

No he just belives that you should only take the Best 100% of the time no mater what you think.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5754215.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5754215.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon
Grenade launchers might be a reasonable choice if I could spend 15 points per squad and get 3 grenade launchers.

What it comes down to is that I have plenty of points to spend on special weapons, but what I lack are special weapon slots as they
are considerably more expensive. I need to put the most fire power as I can. That why I always take lascannons (though the autocannon
is still my favorite, I always find room for a few) and plasma guns in my line squads. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5754237.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5754237.page GMT Re:Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Comrade wrote:I'm saying that those should be in a dedicated unit, such as Veterans.

... dedicated to what?

specializing like that only makes sense when the squad does something necessary very well (cf. fire dragons against MCs and vehicles, or las/melta vanquishers, or baleflamer helldrakes). Put another way, it's only worth dedicating a squad to a weapon that is dedicated towards killing something.

Just what niche does a dedicated GL squad fill? It has blast lasguns, but so what? Surely you're not wanting for anti-light-infantry power between either a horde of lasguns or chimera weapons. It's not a dedicated anti-vehocle weapon because, as has been mentioned, it's not good at that either, especially not compared to other special weapon options.

So what is GL bringing to your army? Another weapon that's only particularly useful against the same targets your lasguns and multilasers? That doesn't sound like a special weapon to me. It also doesn't seem like Id ever need it, much less often notice that I even brought it.

Melta and plasma guns have saved my face more than once, I've NEVER had a time where I said "boy, I wish I had some grenade launchers right now," nor do I anticipate that ever being true.

Comrade wrote:Peregrine: Combining a 12" dedicated anti tank assault weapon and a 48" Light/medium anti tank gun in a squad full of anti light infantry guns (lasguns) doesn't seem like a smart move at all, not to mention to use the whole effect you have to stay still, and then your probably wasting the Melta gun

Whet you're complaining about is the apparent conflict between putting special and heavy weapons in the same squad, not anything in particular to do with that choice of special weapon.

As fir that apparent conflict, it was something that used to bother me as well, but not anymore. The plain, if tragic, fact is that a squad dedicated to nothing but killing light infantry at relatively close ranges will spend nearly every turn of every game doing virtually nothing. You can't afford to sink several hundred points into infantry squads without also giving them the versatility to be able to handle any target type they come across.

Plus, even though the whole unit has to fire at the same target on any given turn doesn't mean that they're always going to be firing at the same target type every turn. If for the first couple of turns you shoot a lascannon, and the next few turns shoot lasguns, that means you had four turns of doing useful, compared to a squad with just lasguns who would be twiddling their thumbs for most of the game.

And it's also not even a matter of firing a weapon upgrade. On more than one occasion, my opponents have been forced to make pointless suicide runs with units (especially barge lords) because there was no weak spot in my anti-vehicle coverage because there were always meltaguns everywhere, for example.

And, more to the point, these things benefit or require mixed weapons in a squad to take advantage of. Yes, there becomes a point where mixing weapons for versatility cuts into your killing power against any particular target type too badly, but it doesn't do to put weapons in that don't even have either killing power OR true versatility before the models even hit the table.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5754442.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5754442.page GMT Re:Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Comrade wrote:
Platoon squads, especially a mobile combined platoon, have more of a Anti Light infantry, at least that is how I use them, it appears that me an you do not use platoon squads in the same manner.

And giving them a GL doesn't make them meaningfully better at killing light infantry. All it does is ensure that the squad can ONLY kill light infantry. A squad with a melta gun instead is almost as good at killing light infantry, and much better against everything else.

Ailaros wrote:
Just what niche does a dedicated GL squad fill?

I think you're misunderstanding here, what they meant is melta/plasma belong in dedicated squads.

(Which is still a bad argument, but at least it's not advocating dedicated GL squads.)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5754490.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5754490.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon GL argument sounds like that guy who crusades for pathfinders as an anti-infantry unit.

S6 is a catch-22, along with S7 and to some extent, 5. S6 is good enough to wound most things on a 4+, it can also hurt (slightly) armour. S7 is the same. it wounds most things on at least a 3+, while being able to deal with most armour.

Problem with S6 without rending is, that it is an anti-infantry and monster weapon. Since IG, Tau and to some extent SM can all dish out a decent amount of anti-infantry firepower, S6 weaponry can be underused

Likewise, AP4 is an odd value,a long with AP3. AP4 is not good enough to harm power armour, but good enough that it feels wasteful to use it on a space marine, rather than a scout or a fire warrior. Likewise, it is painful to watch a s8AP3 blast glance off the surface of a 2+ save.

The combination of 6 and 4 means that you will be inclined to dedicate your S6AP4 shooting against mediocre targets, like fire warriors, scout marines, dire avengers. - anything you can have a chance of wounding on a 2+ and denying armour to.

While this seems like efficient shooting, it is wasteful. By this,, we can deduce that grenade launchers are wasteful. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5754704.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5754704.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Peregrine wrote:
No, the fact that they are useless means that they're useless. Those louder voices just mean that the uselessness is so obvious that even Ailaros and I, who would fight to the death on pretty much anything IG-related, can agree on it.

No just means that you agree on their uselessness and others don't. You might personally believe your opinion is so important that everyone else should agree with you out of hand, but that doesn't make it so.

No it isn't. "Works for me" ignores the fact that another weapon would work better.

No it doesn't. Works for me means that the player is happy with what they get for the points they are spending, not that they ignore there are better weapons out there. Sure there can be better weapons, but they are required. Not everyone plays the game with that WAAC mentality to *require* you to only use the best weapons ever. I build theme armies for games. Sometimes those themes include less well equipped facilities and PDFs that don't always have the latests and greatest toys because they are a backwater. Makes for fun and interesting games making armies like that. Doesn't mean that better weapons aren't out there in other parts of the imperium, just that this small outpost doesn't have any of them.

Try thinking outside the WAAC box and you might find some fun things...

Skriker
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5760574.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5760574.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Skriker wrote:

No just means that you agree on their uselessness and others don't. You might personally believe your opinion is so important that everyone else should agree with you out of hand, but that doesn't make it so.

No it doesn't. Works for me means that the player is happy with what they get for the points they are spending, not that they ignore there are better weapons out there. Sure there can be better weapons, but they are required. Not everyone plays the game with that WAAC mentality to *require* you to only use the best weapons ever. I build theme armies for games. Sometimes those themes include less well equipped facilities and PDFs that don't always have the latests and greatest toys because they are a backwater. Makes for fun and interesting games making armies like that. Doesn't mean that better weapons aren't out there in other parts of the imperium, just that this small outpost doesn't have any of them.

Try thinking outside the WAAC box and you might find some fun things...

Skriker

It's useless because a S3AP6 blast might as well be another lasgun. You wouldn't pay for another lasgun so you're paying for a S6AP4 shot, 2 - at BS3 at 12" range.

For slightly more points, you could pay for a S7AP2 shot at 12" range. you'd be in the same predicament of having only one firemode, but suddenly that firemode would be able to deal with real enemies, like terminators.

A S6 AP4 shot is adequate to kill a fire warrior. Frankly, guardsmen can do that themselves.

20 lasguns shoot, 10 hit, 5 wound and 2.5 kill. Not that difficult to kill a model with sv 4+.

I'll grant you, this thread is in GD, but it at heart a tactics question. Tactics is solely WAAC mentality, because tactics is about how to win the game. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5760609.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5760609.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Scipio Africanus wrote:

Skriker wrote:

No just means that you agree on their uselessness and others don't.
Skriker

It's useless because [More stuff was said]

What is so hard to believe that for some of us it is working.
We are not talking “Mathhammer”.

We are talking about taking it out on to the table top and USING them in real games and with effectiveness. Therefore to those of us who use them fond them anything but Useless.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5760651.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5760651.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Anpu42 wrote:
What is so hard to believe that for some of us it is working.
We are not talking “Mathhammer”.

We are talking about taking it out on to the table top and USING them in real games and with effectiveness. Therefore to those of us who use them fond them anything but Useless.

The problem, Anpu, is not your weapon choices, but the fact that some people can't look beyond the mathhammer, which is why so many armies from the same codex are exactly the same. They "do the math", determine only what is best in the codex and ignore the rest and then insult those who they believe aren't smart enough to understand what is best in the codex. If enough people like that play in the same store it makes the environment stale, boring and completely uninspiring. It also infects new comers to that store so it perpetuates and opens up a totally new player base who won't/can't look beyond what they or others have deemed are the best parts of a codex.

I use "useless" units all the time. In my book if they do the job I intended them to do in the army and it was a good game I couldn't care less that there is another unit that is more cost efficient to do the same thing or that hits harder than the unit I used. It just doesn't matter to me, because the supposed useless unit did the job just fine regardless of their calculations and declarations.

Skriker]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5761000.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5761000.page GMT Re:Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5761033.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5761033.page GMT Re:Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

mad_eddy_13 wrote:
Regardless of stats, grenade launchers look pretty cool - that has to count for something, right?

In my book the "Cool Factor" in more important than "Efectivness".
And many a time "Cool Factor" turns out to be "Effective".]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5761149.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5761149.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon And it's definitely not an infection, it's a game and you can chose who you play, the two sides can easily coexist and new players can chose which side their join.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I'm on the rule of cool side, with GLs and rough riders and ratlings...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5761223.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5761223.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Lathor wrote:
And you should understand that for some people it's fun to try their best and be as effective as possible. It's an insult to call them stale and boring because you don't like their way.
And it's definitely not an infection, it's a game and you can chose who you play, the two sides can easily coexist and new players can chose which side their join.

Actually if you look back on many threads, usually it is the ones who have been calling things “Useless” that attack those who are defending so called “Useless Choices”.
More than once others and I have stated “We have used them with a level of effectiveness” and then accused of being stupid if not outright lying.
I have asked about using some sort of “Wargear” and how could it be used effectively to have my thread hijacked by the same 2-3 people because I don’t agree that it is not “Useless”, just not “Optimal”.

This thread was about using a Grenade Launcher in an Imperial Guard Infantry Platoon and rather than a bunch of people telling the OP about how they use them and how to best optimize them we got half the post are about out they are useless pieces of

and should never be used, not how they can be used.

I try to respect the opinions of others with things I am not familiar with, but when I state I have used something and it and effectively I don’t need people telling me that I am effectively full of

because my experiences are different.

I would like to apologize the OP and most of Dakka for this outburst.

Thank your for your time
Anpu42
=0o0=
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5761288.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5761288.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon GLs are a weapon without a niche. They're premier targets are very light vehicles and medium infantry, both of which are pretty rare in 6th edition. Meanwhile, they compete with very strong choices (plasma/melta), a situationally strong choice (flamer), and an increasingly defensible choice (sniper rifle).

BTW, if you ever want to indulge in some mathhammer, compare what a frag grenade does over six games to what a flamer can do in one shot. If you factor in range, cover, coherncy, and overwatch, the flamer doesn't need to shoot nearly as much as you may think.

For example, lets assume that you get four shots per game with a GL, and each shot hits three models. So you hit 12 gants a game, for six wounds. Assuming 5+ cover half the time, you do 4.5 wounds. That's a pretty generous set of assumptions, but we're just kicking tires here. To do 4.5 wounds with a flamer, you need to hit six with one shot. Or hit four with a shot, and two with overwatch.

Now, part of this comes down to the fundamental question of IG list design: do you favor modest but reliable damage output, or do you hope for spectacular output (see hull heavy bolters vs. heavy flamers on chimeras for a similar discussion). The primary argument for the GL is that with 24" range plus movement, it will reliable shoot all game, every game. The counter argument is that the other speicals will do less frequent damage, but more (and more valuable damage!)

Really, when comparing GL vs. Flamer in a vacuum, the question I'd ask is how often your lines get overrun. Franklly, if you're enemy stays outside of flamer range, your IG is probably going to win anyway.

The second question of IG design is always "generalist vs. specialist." I think most people understand that IG squads can specialize, and they fixate on the lasguns as meaning platoon squads should focus on anti-infantry. Which, to be fair, the GL is the best anti-light-infantry weapon for static shooting, beacuse it's the only such weapon available. But keep 13 las shots in context: they simply don't do much. The squads are vaulable because they can tote specials and heavies, which is why a squad can nearly double its cost in upgrades.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Anpu42 wrote:
This thread was about using a Grenade Launcher in an Imperial Guard Infantry Platoon and rather than a bunch of people telling the OP about how they use them and how to best optimize them we got half the post are about out they are useless pieces of and should never be used, not how they can be used.

I try to respect the opinions of others with things I am not familiar with, but when I state I have used something and it and effectively I don’t need people telling me that I am effectively full of because my experiences are different.

That's a supericially compelling argument. And I do agree that some of the attacks can be rude.

That said, exactly what kind of discussion are you hoping for? It's a pretty simple piece of wargear. You take it because you want to keep a cheap gunline squad, so pair it with an AC and hope to pop some light armor. Or with a mortar and go nuts against light infantry.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5761348.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5761348.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Skriker wrote:No it doesn't. Works for me means that the player is happy with what they get for the points they are spending, not that they ignore there are better weapons out there.

I guess that depends on standards, then. If your standards are set at "will it ever do anything?" and if the answer is "yes", then it's worth taking, then sure, by that criteria, a grenade launcher would be worth taking.

The problem, though, is that how useful is that line of thinking? I mean, ANYTHING has the chance to do SOMETHING. By this reasoning, all weapons would be equal in quality to each other, as they'd all be able to trigger the lowest possible expectations and be able to be branded as "good". It's not just that it's a lack of nuance, but it also makes it difficult to discuss things relative to each other.

Furthermore, the problem with relying on one's own experiences isn't the experiences per-se (though one could easily degrade their usefulness if they're not controlling variables, or being rigorous in their quantity), so much as experiences are subjective. Ideas that are based on a single person's circumstances aren't useful (or, for that matter, valid) outside of the context of that person's experiences. Unless we all have the same opponents, playing the same missions with the same terrain with the same die rolls, etc., how useful really are statements based on anecdotes? If you once had a PIS FRFing kill 3 terminators, does that mean lasguns are a premiere anti-terminator weapon for everybody? Or just you, and just that one time?

Anpu42 wrote:I have asked about using some sort of “Wargear” and how could it be used effectively

The problem is that this isn't a question that can sustain more than a one-phrase answer of "get the weapon to within 24" and fire it at something".

Furthermore, that's how you use any weapon in 40k, much less grenade launchers in specific. If what you want to know is things about the grenade launcher more generally, then an abstract discussion comparing them objectively to other possible weapon options is a legitimate part of the conversation.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5761379.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5761379.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Special Weapons squads are terrible you may as well just take Veterans with Carapace Armour to better protect your investment..]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5761391.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5761391.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Anpu42 wrote:[This thread was about using a Grenade Launcher in an Imperial Guard Infantry Platoon and rather than a bunch of people telling the OP about how they use them and how to best optimize them we got half the post are about out they are useless pieces of and should never be used, not how they can be used.

Actually, if you look at the OP:

Comrade wrote:I've just never understood the dislike of the lowly GL, its definitely not a specialized weapon per se, but its definitely is a threat multiplier and it makes your platoons a more all around threat and more able to support your specialized units, while also allowing to have decent power, at low points for a 24" Assault weapon.

I dunno, seems like he wanted to discuss the relative merits of the weapon.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5761403.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5761403.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Peregrine wrote:

loner wrote:
A platoon command squad with 4 Grenade Launchers is 50 points, which CAN pack a decent punch and still hang back to give orders to the guys in front of him.

You have a strange definition of "punch" if four BS 3 grenade launchers counts.

I think that the trade off is fair. 50 points for 4 S6 AP4 shots, while keeping the ability to give out orders is a fair trade in my eyes. And as a bonus, they are not a vital unit, so you can still throw them in front of the enemy should the need arise.

I find them fun to use and they are cheap, which means a lot in my infantry guard. I find that for that amount of points, they can dish out a good amount of damage.

I'm not saying that they are optimal, perfect or the best unit out there, but I'm saying that they are a good unit and I enjoy using them, which in the end is enough for me.

Try fielding it once. It won't perform miracles, but like I said, it's fun and what point is a game if you don't like it?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5761740.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5761740.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

loner wrote:
Try fielding it once. It won't perform miracles, but like I said, it's fun and what point is a game if you don't like it?

How exactly is a grenade launcher more fun than a melta gun?

Meanwhile this thread has gone from discussing the merits (or lack thereof) of grenade launchers and into the same old "I'm playing the game and having fun therefore you can't criticize my choices" nonsense. If you feel so strongly that every choice is a valid one and as long as you're rolling dice and moving models it doesn't matter what you take then why do you bother posting? Just go play your weak lists and have "fun".]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5761765.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5761765.page GMT Re:Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon
I use flamers almost exlcusively for my standard line guard; with 6th ed, they're simply the best economical option. D3 hits on overwatch, assault, can score a lot of hits and wounds if placed well. I play against a lot of horde armies; marines are uncommon locally, with Necrons and Chaos Marines representing the only individually tough armies, and the Chaos players tend towards cultists and cult marines. Usually I'm fighting bugs, Orks, Guard and other "softer" armies like Eldar. (though less so now that they've got 3+ like it's going out of style). In this environment, i'm often fighting at close range against lots of targets, and that flamer template is beautiful.

That being said, the Grenade launcher isn't bad; it'll make its points back more often than not, it's cheap, and it forces the enemy to spread out and make worse use of cover, or get hit lots; so no matter what, it's working in your favour. It's also very fluffy; the guard is described as using grenade launchers as their default, go-to special weapon, with flamers only for fighting hordes or other specialist environments. It isn't a handicap weapon, but with 6th ed changes, and in my meta, cheap flamer units are much more valuable to me.

I'm currently building a DKoK army, and the cooler looking squad comes with a grenade launcher, so I'll be using them more soon, but, more likely than not, I'll use my spare plastic flamers to convert some. Grenade launchers are a good budget option, especially if you can deploy them in squads (PCS, CCS, SWS) to control the flow of battle; not even marines will want to clump together and face a bunch of unwanted saves, and if they do, you'll easily make your low investment back.

And that's the key of my paradigm; recouping an investment. I like flamers because they always kill more than 5pts, hell, they can often carry the cost of the whole squad, grenade launchers can as well, but it's not quite as certain. Plasma, for me, blows up in my face a ton, so I only use them on carapace models to avoid killing them and possibly firing again, and melta has very short range; good gun, not worthwhile on a BS3 footslogging model with 5+.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5762072.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5762072.page GMT Re:Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Peregrine wrote:

loner wrote:
Try fielding it once. It won't perform miracles, but like I said, it's fun and what point is a game if you don't like it?

I believe we are going off topic here, but the way you write weak lists and 'fun' seems a bit condescending, almost as if you can't have fun when playing weak lists. This may be your opinion, but to say I can't have fun, because I play weak lists is a bit strange. What do you know about what I enjoy to field or to play and why do you judge it?
I enjoy it to field a huge load of infantry and have these dudes running all around the field. It works for me, sometimes.

One of the reasons it is fun, is because I put myself at a handicap. I deny myself the usage of tanks and all other heavy vehicles, which are powerful and could've helped me out in many occassions. However I stick to a theme and I enjoy it playing more than a net list.
Since I'm at a handicap, it requires greater skill and more thinking in order to win than when I use the thoughest and the best that the Imperial Guard. Again, I find it fun to have a game challenging and tense, than just curbstomping my opponent into the dust with manticores and vendatta spam.

If I win then, it makes a game feel better to me, because I actually worked for it, instead of just pointing and shooting.

I posted in order to show that the grenade launcher is a possible option for special weapons. It is certainly not the best weapons, but it can be used alongside most units.
When you use a few of them, you make it harder for yourself to win and thus make the game rely more on player skill and thus making the game more challenging.

On topic: The benefits of a Grenade Launcher are all listed on the front page, but the best part is that it's a S6 shot, capable of engaging most infantry targets and some light transports with reasonable chance for just 5 points. If you are really desperate, you can use them against flyers as well. The flamer or the sniper rifle cannot engage vehicles, because their strength is too low
While the sniper rifle has a better range, it will struggle against light infantry, where the Grenade Launcher can easily wound them. (T3/4 models.)
The Flamer can engage these models also and maybe better, but it has a lot shorter range and it cannot be used against AV 10 vehicles.
Therefore, I choose the grenade launcher, because it has a high strength, it's versatile and most of all, it's cheap.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5762097.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5762097.page GMT Re:Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

MajorStoffer wrote:
I'm partial to cheap standard guard; I'd never put a melta or plasma, or a special weapon, in a standard squad unless it wasa blob. BS3 5+ models is not where one dumps points with Guard.

And, like other people, you're missing the carrier cost factor. A platoon squad with a GL costs 55 points, a platoon squad with a melta gun costs 60 points. You're paying a very small increase in the total cost of the unit in exchange for a huge increase in effectiveness. Meanwhile refusing to spend that extra 5 points doesn't really buy you very much as a replacement, so you aren't getting any benefit from the "cheaper" unit.

That being said, the Grenade launcher isn't bad;

Yes it is. Just do the math, the GL is mediocre at best no matter what you shoot it at, and in some cases it's actually worse than a basic lasgun.

I'm currently building a DKoK army, and the cooler looking squad comes with a grenade launcher,

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Death-Korps-of-Krieg/DEATH_KORPS_OF_KRIEG_INFANTRY_AND_ACCESSORIES/DEATH_KORPS_OF_KRIEG_WEAPONS_SET.html

Now you never have to worry about being forced to use bad weapons just because it comes with the squad.

loner wrote:
This may be your opinion, but to say I can't have fun, because I play weak lists is a bit strange. What do you know about what I enjoy to field or to play and why do you judge it?

You're missing the point. I'm not saying that you can't have fun, I'm saying "I have fun" is useless advice for anyone else. Fun is subjective, and your personal idea of fun is useless in a thread asking for advice on strategy.

One of the reasons it is fun, is because I put myself at a handicap.

So why do you post in a thread asking for strategy advice if the only "reason" to use a grenade launcher is to handicap yourself? Isn't this your concession that GLs suck?

I posted in order to show that the grenade launcher is a possible option for special weapons.

When you use a few of them, you make it harder for yourself to win and thus make the game rely more on player skill and thus making the game more challenging.

And these two statements are completely contradictory. If the GL is a viable option for strategy reasons it isn't making it harder for you to win. If it is deliberately making it harder to win then it isn't a "possible" option except in the sense that it exists in the book.

On topic: The benefits of a Grenade Launcher are all listed on the front page, but the best part is that it's a S6 shot, capable of engaging most infantry targets and some light transports with reasonable chance for just 5 points.

Except once you do the math it doesn't have a reasonable chance.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5762152.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5762152.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon OP posted 'boy, Grenade Launchers sure are cool looking! I enjoy putting them in my squads because I like the idea of shooting grenades,' this argument wouldn't be happening. The OP said 'grenade launchers are a good and efficient use of points.'

The first statement can be true pretty much no matter what. It's an opinion, and that's great. The second claim can be tested. You can run the numbers, and determine whether or not it's true. Just because you like an option doesn't make it a good/optimal choice, and the OP presented grenade launchers as a good/optimal choice. WAAC and fun and all those sorts of things don't even come close to factoring into this discussion.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5762172.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5762172.page GMT Re:Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon FW would do what they've done for the HH kits and release 5/10 of the various guard special weapons, not the kits full of useless guns.

As I said, the flamer is patently better, it's what I use, I just don't think writing off the grenade launcher as being an idiot's weapon is fair; it has some uses. It's not very good, it could use some improvement, perhaps make it free like all those Space Marine Colours with their free special weapons, but it's not in the same vein as mortar heavy weapons, which really are absolutely useless.

Actually, while I'm at it; they ought to buff grenades and mortars. The mortar is one of the most ubiquotous and effecient squad-portable weapons next to the machine gun every devised, and while not commonplace in modern mechanized/hyper-mobile warfare, the more static and ground-pounding nature of the Guard means mortars should have a place, in my opinion.

As many others here have stated, I build a list on a theme, and use units which I deem cost-effective. I'll never take a mortar, I don't really use LRBTs anymore outside of Apoc, same for Stormtroopers, but I will use flamers, I won't baulk at filling my last 15 unspent points on three grenade launchers somewhere in the army, but I have absolutely zero interest in running 2 manticores, 3 vendettas, a blob squad behind an egis with a Commissar Lord and power axes. Sure, it's killier, but it has no coherent theme, and it's boring to play against or with. I used to have an army like that, and found it droll. That is, for me, the hobby aspect winning out. I want to perform well on the table, which i am not struggling with overly much , but I want to have fun, play by the fluff, which is the reason I got into 40k, and have a diverse, unique force which is entirely my own.

That is not wrong, there is merely a different approach, and one my meta encourages. We aren't hardcore optimizers, for the most part, and those that are generally only show up for tourneys (and amusingly haven't done well to date; our armies aren't adjusted to the online meta they build for, and often leaves them ill-equipped). Some people go a touch to far, only really using models they like; their armies look amazing, well painted and creative, but can never win. I like to find a middle ground, one I think is a sentiment shared heavily on this thread. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5762213.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5762213.page GMT Re:Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Peregrine wrote:

loner wrote:
This may be your opinion, but to say I can't have fun, because I play weak lists is a bit strange. What do you know about what I enjoy to field or to play and why do you judge it?

This is in general discussion, not tactics. The OP clearly stated what he thought about Grenade Launchers and he wanted to share his thoughts about them.
He didn't ask: "Should I use Grenade Launchers?" or "Are Grenade Launchers worth taking?"
He shared his thoughts, just like you shared yours and I shared mine.
Because you think something, doesn't mean my opinion is worthless. We just have different priorities. You are looking at sheer killing power, which is a meltagun or a plasmagun. I'm looking at cheapness, which is a Grenade Launcher.

As for strategy related: Grenade launcher cost just 5 points. So you can field a load of them, without taking up a significant amount of points. 10 of them is just 50 points. 10 melta guns is 100 points and 10 plasmaguns is 150 points, you can field 30 grenade launchers for that.

One of the reasons it is fun, is because I put myself at a handicap.

So why do you post in a thread asking for strategy advice if the only "reason" to use a grenade launcher is to handicap yourself? Isn't this your concession that GLs suck?

Did I ever say it was the best option out there? Did I say you always should take Grenade Launchers, because you lose without them?
I said that Grenade Launchers were 5 points and still S6, which I find a decent offer. Not the best, you get what you pay for.

We are going off topic again, but when you play a netlist, you know that you are probably going to win the game, because you got all the right tools to stomp your opponent into the dust. There is little challenge in my eyes in such a game.
I find it more fun when it's not immediately obvious who will win, but that you rather have to work with what you got. It makes it more difficult to win, which I find more enjoyable and I can play with the models that I like.
Then again, others prefer it to grind their opponents to dust and table them. Your milage may vary. Both play by the same rules, but not the same game, if you get my meaning.

I posted in order to show that the grenade launcher is a possible option for special weapons.

When you use a few of them, you make it harder for yourself to win and thus make the game rely more on player skill and thus making the game more challenging.

And these two statements are completely contradictory. If the GL is a viable option for strategy reasons it isn't making it harder for you to win. If it is deliberately making it harder to win then it isn't a "possible" option except in the sense that it exists in the book.

I think that we are not on the same page. Just because it makes it harder for you to win, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Your signature states that everything that GW publishes, can be used. The Grenade Launcher is in the Imperial Guard codex and therefore can be used, right? While some groups may debate about if forgeworld is allowed or not, you cannot deny the Imperial Guard codex.

On topic: The benefits of a Grenade Launcher are all listed on the front page, but the best part is that it's a S6 shot, capable of engaging most infantry targets and some light transports with reasonable chance for just 5 points.

Except once you do the math it doesn't have a reasonable chance.

And the flamer has an even smaller chance and the sniper rifle has no chance. A reasonable chance is better than nothing.
(Just to demonstrate: A Grenade Launcher fires at AV 10 with BS 3 and S6 = 0.1665 chance to penetrate and 0.08325 chance to glance. A flamer has just 0.1665 chance to give a glancing hit.)

There is a whole lot of more things than mathhammer. Your army as a whole has to operate. Mathhammer doesn't calculate in terrain, the mission, the deployment or the rest of the army you have. Mathhammer just shows how likely one shot in a vacuum is likely to kill another model in a vacuum, nothing more than that.

I think that we're getting too much off topic here, discussing between fun/not fun and we have different opinions and we're obviously not going to change it either.
If you want, we can continue this through PM.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5765887.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5765887.page GMT Re:Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

loner wrote:
As for strategy related: Grenade launcher cost just 5 points. So you can field a load of them, without taking up a significant amount of points. 10 of them is just 50 points. 10 melta guns is 100 points and 10 plasmaguns is 150 points, you can field 30 grenade launchers for that.

Sigh. Carrier costs matter. Once you include the price of the squads you need to buy to carry those special weapons you find that the grenade launcher is only slightly cheaper at the cost of being completely useless.

I find it more fun when it's not immediately obvious who will win, but that you rather have to work with what you got. It makes it more difficult to win, which I find more enjoyable and I can play with the models that I like.

IOW, grenade launchers suck but if you take them it will make the game more difficult for you and you might find that interesting. Why bother trying to justify how "effective" they are for their points if your real goal is just to make the game harder for yourself?

And the flamer has an even smaller chance and the sniper rifle has no chance. A reasonable chance is better than nothing.

Better than nothing, but that's why we have melta and plasma.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5765961.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5765961.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon GLs are useful for me, as my meta allows situations (i.e opponents and such) in which the GL's Str and AP values are worth it. Coupled with FomT, I can tell you that Tau, Orks and Necrons fall to it.

MEQ? Yeah I got a couple of Russ pies for those.

AP2/vehicles? lascannons.

I got GLs coupled with MLs for some redundant blast templates (and yes- troops are rarely space out to 2 inches what with cover not spreading that wide as the mob or squad.) or some vehicular hitting power (AV10-11 all the time really, only the Tau got AV12) and a PCS with 3 of them.

And yeah I got meltaguns, BS3 never managed to do jack.
And yeah I got plasmaguns. A couple in each of my CCS, no way I'm spending 15pts to put that on some BS3 model, 'got to make them shots count.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5766290.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5766290.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Inquisitor Jex wrote:GLs are useful for me... BS3 never managed to do jack.

?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5766417.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5766417.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon Can't we forget about this wrong theory that not taking GLs = autowin. Why do you think that everyone everywhere has the same meta as you and a cutting edge list means walk in the park? There are guys against who you must take your best list, cause otherwise it will be a boring win for them, instead of a challenging game for both. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5767083.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5767083.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Ailaros wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:GLs are useful for me... BS3 never managed to do jack.

Nice of you to skip most of my post drawing lines when none are there.

To clarify for you then, relying on a single BS3 trooper for your anti-vehiclular punch is not a reliable way to do things, what with the horrid short range a meltagun has.

I'd rather reserve my BiD for my lascannons when the vehicle is on the other side of the board than to waste it on a single BS3 meltagun when it's in my face.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5767575.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5767575.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
To clarify for you then, relying on a single BS3 trooper for your anti-vehiclular punch is not a reliable way to do things, what with the horrid short range a meltagun has.

So then how is a single BS 3 grenade launcher, which has the same accuracy problems but even bigger problems penetrating armor or inflicting "explodes" results, any better? That was Ailaros' point, you criticize the other guns for a being unreliable while advocating an even less reliable weapon as an alternative.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5767691.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5767691.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon GL that can hit at range and is flexible than BS3 as your main source of antyi-vehicular hitting power.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5767728.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5767728.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Better using BS3 on a GL that can hit at range and is flexible than BS3 as your main source of antyi-vehicular hitting power.

Unless you have a limited number of special weapons, then it's not a "one or the other" choice. Perhaps your main source of anti-vehicle firepower are in a deep-striking squad of suicide stormtroopers with meltas, or under a vendetta's wings, or even it's just the special weapons present in your infantry squads. Putting a melta in the basic infantry squad doesn't hurt, it only helps.

The GL isn't flexible. It really isn't. It's meh AP and OK strength define it's role as IDing T3 infantry with a 4+ save, and maybe glancing AV 12 here or there. there are plenty of other weapons that do what the GL does better (Like the autocannon, or plasma, or a battlecannon, or, well, any other gun the the guard has besides a lasgun and a flamer). If you want flexibility, take plasma. Same range, double the shots within 12" and the strength and AP to engage targets from terminators to marines to MC's to transports.

But yeah, I agree in putting the valuable special weapons on the BS4 models first, and then handing whatever's left to the lowly guardsman, and usually, I have a ton of meltas left.

I mean, I'm just not getting your reasoning, because it sounds to me something like this:

"I hit with that GL! It didn't do much, but good thing I put it on that infantry model not to waste points!"

"I missed with that Melta, I knew I was wasting points putting it on that BS3 infantry."

The difference here is that the GL is a "waste" no matter if it hits or misses, while Melta/plasma is only a "waste" if they miss.

If so, welcome to the guard. You will miss. You will miss lots. .

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5767987.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5767987.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Better using BS3 on a GL that can hit at range and is flexible than BS3 as your main source of antyi-vehicular hitting power.

And that's a false dilemma fallacy. You don't have to choose between melta on BS 3 or BS 4, you can take melta on BS 3 AND BS 4. Once you include carrier costs the GL isn't really much cheaper, so you might as well have all of your units carrying good weapons regardless of BS.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5767995.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5767995.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon
Plasma might be 'flexible', but it is 3 times to cost and it can blow up in your face, which it did.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5768875.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5768875.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Well, sure was useful against Tyranids just now, those blast markers did a number of those troops, hitting 3-5 each time, compared to, y'know that single shot of meltagun that only killed one at a time.

Plasma might be 'flexible', but it is 3 times to cost and it can blow up in your face, which it did.

At most I've hit two Terminators with blast markers when they were properly spaced out and I just got lucky for scatter. Most of the time you'll hit one if that. Plus, that one Meltagun shot has a much better chance of killing what it's hitting. Them blast markers ain't so hot when it takes some bad rolling on your opponents part to work.

Plasma is also well worth the points increase. You're wounding even plague Marines on 2s and denying everything armor saves. If you aren't willing to give up a few guardsmen for that then you are playing the wrong army. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5768909.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5768909.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5769021.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5769021.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5769092.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5769092.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Melissia wrote:
The vitriol spewed forth in this thread is mildly disturbing considering we're talking about plastic soldiers.

This statement is full of irony as well.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5769096.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5769096.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Melissia wrote:
The vitriol spewed forth in this thread is mildly disturbing considering we're talking about plastic soldiers.

This statement is full of irony as well.

I try to keep my vitriol for topics which have some relation to important RL issues

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5769098.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5769098.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Melissia wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Melissia wrote:
The vitriol spewed forth in this thread is mildly disturbing considering we're talking about plastic soldiers.

This statement is full of irony as well.

I try to keep my vitriol for topics which have some relation to important RL issues

Yeah, like female space marines.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5769116.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5769116.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon try

But enough of that.

Grenade Launchers are perfectly fine if you're using your infantry to tie up and contest a forward objective. I'd prefer flamers, but the GL will have more shots before they get there.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5769138.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5769138.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Again, I got plasma somewhere else. but you people are all about having a single way to doing things, rather than even thinking that another way might exists.

Yeah, I'm finding that out just by posting that the GL isn't bad, but isn't great either. Just think what would have happened if I said "Not everyone needs to have plasma guns." Thread. The world would have ended.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5769406.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5769406.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Again, I got plasma somewhere else. but you people are all about having a single way to doing things, rather than even thinking that another way might exists.

That would have been a valid complaint a few years ago. But now the IG codex is old, and everything has been thoroughly analyzed and understood. And part of that understanding is knowing that grenade launchers are terrible weapons, we don't need to keep considering and re-considering the same bad ideas just so we can praise ourselves for being "open-minded".]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5769667.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5769667.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Peregrine wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Again, I got plasma somewhere else. but you people are all about having a single way to doing things, rather than even thinking that another way might exists.

The Imperial Guard codex is one of the most flexible and variable codexes /armies out there, to say the army is completely understood is being arrogant, each part of our codex interacts differently with different parts.

If I listened to everything the internet said I should do, I would have an entire army of Veterans, in chimeras, supported by Vendettas, with a manticore. I don't. You might, others don't.

This thread wasn't about how awesome or superior the GL is, it was how it was OK. I didn't even say ot was better then plasma or melta. Your continued reference to carrier cost tells me you don't think the squad is good for anything then being wound counters for your Special weapons, some of us don't play like that, maybe some of us like the option of dual purposing, but not enough to spend 10-15 pts for it, hey, cheap GL, shoot for 15 pts I can give a whole platoon that.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5769689.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5769689.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Comrade wrote:
The Imperial Guard codex is one of the most flexible and variable codexes /armies out there, to say the army is completely understood is being arrogant, each part of our codex interacts differently with different parts.

You're right, there are subtle details left to personal preference and metagame decisions. However, we know all of the obvious things. We don't need to be "open-minded" about things like the fact that Vendettas are powerful and grenade launchers are worthless.

And of course the proof of this is the complete failure to provide justification for taking grenade launchers. It's all based on bad arguments that either get the math wrong or ignore carrier costs. What you're really left with is "I like them, shut up", and that's not really a compelling argument.

I didn't even say ot was better then plasma or melta.

Then why are you taking it? If it's for reasons like fluff/cool models/etc then why do you continue to defend it instead of saying "I like the model, I don't care if it sucks"?

Your continued reference to carrier cost tells me you don't think the squad is good for anything then being wound counters for your Special weapons,

No, that's not the point at all. Carrier costs aren't about whether a unit is composed of wound counters or not, it's about the fact that "cheap" special weapons aren't really cheap. You aren't just spending 5 points for a grenade launcher vs. 10 for a melta, you have to consider the cost of getting access to a special weapon slot. And once you do that you find that arming units with grenade launchers costs almost as many points as arming them with better guns. An army that takes grenade launchers over melta will NOT have twice as many weapons, it will be lucky to get even a single additional grenade launcher with the points saved.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5769701.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5769701.page GMT Re:Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

And of course the proof of this is the complete failure to provide justification for taking grenade launchers. It's all based on bad arguments that either get the math wrong or ignore carrier costs. What you're really left with is "I like them, shut up", and that's not really a compelling argument.

Just my opinion on it however,

From the first post alone Peregrine.

Must you turn everything into a massive argument? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5769713.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5769713.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon IG afecionado or something? I didn't realize the game had turned into a game of High stakes poker, and there was no other way to play.

And actually I hate the model, I posted this as an opinion mainly about alot of the hate against the GL, which you have come to epitomize in this thread.

I'll just keep my opinion, you keep yours, and we'll continue to disagree on whether its worth the 5 points I spend on it.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5769777.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5769777.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Comrade wrote:

And actually I hate the model,

To be fair, while the basic cadian GL model is a bit on the nose, the Kasrkin one and some of the other regiments get sweet GL models]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5769781.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5769781.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon
sigh. Auxiliary Grenade Launchers were awesome in the Kastorel-Novem list...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5769823.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5769823.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon GL on some of my models because I was limited to what Special/Heavy Weapons I could bring. Depending on whom I'm facing and what the point limit is, I will switch between the GL or say it's a modified melta gun either to better deal with my opponent or to save some points for something that can do the job better.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5769905.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5769905.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

I'm not calling them stale and boring...I am calling the dynamic that a large number of those types of players create in a store environment stale and boring. Oh look it is the same exact Necron/Grey Knights/IG/Whathaveyou army again, but the 3rd opponent I am playing using the same exact list this weekend. SNORE!!!!!! To me that IS stale and boring. I like environments where everyone makes interesting lists that show their character as a player and not just regurgitate the latest power build from a codex. And yes it *does* infect new comers who get pulled into the power gaming feel of it all and start doing it themselves.

I have been in plenty of shops where power lists didn't start as the be all and end all, but eventually just took over so I moved to a different store where such wasn't the case and then some of the power listers would move into that store too and the dynamic would shift again. This is why I pretty much play 40k exclusively at home on my own table anymore, with a select group of people who think outside the box when it comes to building lists and not just play power list X of the week all the time. Sure those power builds appear from time to time, but they don't appear every time I face that specific player, or that army in our games.

I have no problems if others want to play against each other using the same lists as everyone else all the time. Their perogative. Just don't call people who don't stupid for not using ONLY the same uber power combos game in and game out.

Skriker]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5774627.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5774627.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5774717.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5774717.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

Peregrine wrote:
That would have been a valid complaint a few years ago. But now the IG codex is old, and everything has been thoroughly analyzed and understood. And part of that understanding is knowing that grenade launchers are terrible weapons, we don't need to keep considering and re-considering the same bad ideas just so we can praise ourselves for being "open-minded".

Oh no...the codex has been completely analyzed and now as a player I am unallowed to actually think about it myself and still use whatever I want out of the codex. I am only allowed to use those aspects of the codex that have been understood to be the best parts of the codex.

Um...yeah sure Peregrine.

What is so offensive to you that you have to insult people who use something from a codex that you don't like to use yourself? Last time I checked people are free to build their armies how *they* choose as long as they follow the proper FOC and rules for units in their codex. So that means if someone wants to use nothing but grenade launchers in their army as special weapons it is none of your business, really. So why do you insist on insulting people with the arrogant drivel like I have quoted above as if you have some power to force people to never use GLs? It is just silly...

Skriker

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lathor wrote:
I play chess all the time with the same list

And so do I Mr. Smartypants...but this isn't chess is it?

Skriker]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5774771.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5774771.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5776478.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5776478.page GMT Re:Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

ALSO I was curious about how the costs would work out if you fielded 2 platoons of troops with the different weapon options because I'm on holidays and I'm bored.

PCS x2 with 8 plasma 180pts
Infantry squad x5 with 5 plasma 325pts
Infantry squad x5 with 5 plasma 325pts
830pts

PCS x2 with 8 meltas 140pts
Infantry squad x5 with 5 meltas 300pts
Infantry squad x5 with 5 meltas 300pts
740pts

PCS x2 with 8 GL 100pts
Infantry squad x5 with 5 GL 275pts
Infantry squad x5 with 5 GL 275pts
650pts

Creating this small comparison immediately made me ask the question "which platoon would you not want to stand near?" The plasma platoon makes me weep at how much my and my opponents face would be melting. The melta platoon is a death trap for anything that comes near it.
The GL platoon (without listing all the pros/cons) is just not as menacing. I guess what I'm saying is, putting the utility aside, there is a certain amount of "threat" that accompanies the other weapons. However! I feel PCS are too fragile and become to costly to justify spending too much on - This, as mentioned earlier, is a valid option for low cost, throwaway GL or flamer equipped PCS.

I really want to love GL! Trust me I do (For some reason I have about 15 guardmen with GL in my bits box and I'm itching to use them), but I only use them if I have no other option. Maybe someone else can weigh in on some of the positives? Peregrine or Ailaros, surely one of you can come up with some justification for their inclusion somewhere.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5790365.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5790365.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon GLs in one PIS instead of a plasma.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5790569.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5790569.page GMT Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon
Mostly they are useful cause with Harker I can infiltrate them to get some shots at rear transport armor. Definately a lot of points spent, but they do the job. More often than not it is the GL's taking out hull points that make the unit sucessful.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5790761.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5790761.page GMT Re:Grenade Launchers and the lowly platoon

masterdoobie wrote:

PCS x2 with 8 plasma 180pts
Infantry squad x5 with 5 plasma 325pts
Infantry squad x5 with 5 plasma 325pts
830pts

PCS x2 with 8 meltas 140pts
Infantry squad x5 with 5 meltas 300pts
Infantry squad x5 with 5 meltas 300pts
740pts

PCS x2 with 8 GL 100pts
Infantry squad x5 with 5 GL 275pts
Infantry squad x5 with 5 GL 275pts
650pts

Thanks for the post! It's quite interesting to see the numbers.

Maybe a thing to consider is the costs of heavy weapons in those units. Assuming we give all of them Autocannons (or lascannons), that are another 120 points you have to add. (Or 240 if you take the LCs.)

This means that the plasma platoons become 950 (1070) points.

The melta platoons become 860 (980) points.

The GL platoons become 770 (890) points.

What surprises me is that they are considerably less than I had expected them to be. (Stupid conscripts, take up too many points.)
I'd say that the Plasma platoon actually looks the most threatening, simply because of the larger range that these guns have, as well as their S7 AP2 shots.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5791507.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/534289/5791507.page GMT