Valkyrie wrote:
I'd offer you criticism but judging from your previous thread it doesn't seem worth it, but I'll just say that this is just ridiculous, needs to be toned down a hell of a lot.

 thorian wrote:
I provided proof for the empys power in the last thread, then a certain someone wanted sources. I pressed send then the thread was locked, but regardless, everything I had said can be cited in either the BRB or Codices. So prime, you are right in the level of power he is meant to be. But... if we want to balance him for gameplay we need to nerf him, I wouldnt say jacking points is nerfing though. Here was my idea:

WS 9 (not 10, he may be a great warrior but he is never quoted as THE best)
BS 6 (whats the need for 8 when he is never shown using a gun...)
S 7 (again strong, but not able to arm wrestle a bio titan)
T 7 (again tough, but unarmoured a lascanon is still going to scratch him)
W 8 (bit afraid to go for a 9 or 10 wound model when he is still technically just a man)
I 6 (again, he is a man, not a quicksilver eldar
A 6 (didnt hear about him destroying whole squads of guys in a single swipe so this is stable)
LD 10 (he is the leader of the galaxy so should have highest it can get)
SV 2+/3++


Special Rules:
It Will Not Die, Fearless, Feel No Pain 4+, Adamantine Will, Eternal Warrior, Fleet, Terror, Very Bulky

Greatest psyker of Mankind:
The Emperor is described as the most powerful psyker of mankind. He has a psychic mastery level of 6 and can choose two psychic powers for each discipline in the rulebook. He also has deny the witch on 3+

I shall not fall:
The emperor uses raw psychic might to defend himself when his armour fails him. Against weapons that inflict remove from play, they instead automatically inflict d3 wounds only. The emperor also passes all It will not Die rolls on a 4+.

Ruler of Mankind:
The Emperor can never truly die on the battlefield, his fate is entwined with humanity. Whilst he is alive, any unit that can draw line of site to him is fearless. If the Emperor ever falls the best result the player can ever get is a draw. When he is defeated place a counter where he died. If a friendly model is not within 3" of the token at the end of the game he automatically loses.

God of mankind:
The emperor must choose one of the following stances at the beggining of each turn, the following bonuses apply until the start of the players next turn:
Combat Stance-The emperors gains +1 WS, S and A
Psychic Stance- The emperor gains psychic mastery level 10
Commander Stance- All friendly units with at least one model within 6" gain +1 attack

Psychic Lance:
This special psychic power can be used once per game. It replaces the emperors psychic powers phase and he cannot use deny the witch this turn. Remove one model in base contact with the emperor from play. Then The Emperors profile drops to 5 on all statistics apart from W and LD for one turn.


Wargear:
Armour of the Emperor:
2+ Armour save with a 3++ invun. Cannot be destroyed by special rules such as vindicares shield breaker.

Sword of the Emperor:
S-As user AP-2 Special rules: Decapitation (as per HH betrayal book)

Emperors Halo:
In nightfighting everyone can draw line of sight to him as he is lit up like a lantern. Foes can shoot him as normal and friends can see him to be fearless.

I think this is a balanced interpretation for the Emperor. Some fluffy rules, not too much OP and still able to take on any primarch and come out on top. Yes me may have to rely on psychic powers to do so but that is what is to be expected. Doing combinations of iron arm and others and such can empower the emperor to massive levels. This way he can be T 10 and such. Hope it is good?

 thorian wrote:
I would say 1k as well. No use outside of apoc games though or scenarios.

 Blacksails wrote:
In this thread: Primordial and thorian don't understand the basic concept that fluff =/= rules.

Both those versions are still crazy over the top, have no legitimate choices that need to be made when fielding the character, aren't interesting, and feel like a 10 year old fan-fiction write up.

In order to illustrate why you can't use fluff as a justification for powerful rules, understand this.

Orkz can't lose. If they lose, it doesn't count because they can do it again. Therefore I propose the following rule for Codex: Orkz.

When determining the results of the battle through victory points or objectives, ignore the results. Orkz are automatically counted as having won the game, for they care not for Imperial standards of victory.

There. Its absurd right? Downright silly even. This is what your version of the Emperor looks like to everyone. You cannot use the background fluff as a justification for being absurdly stupid powerful. Its a basic, fundamental tenet of rules design. Table top games are not literal representations of a battle, whether historical or fictional. When you understand that, you'll also understand why you should create rules that simulate a simple version of the powers/abilities a character should have. Not every detail or precise action needs to be represented in a rule. Marneus Calgar, the most decorated and arguably the most important Chapter Master alive (three way tie ultimately withe Dante and Grimnar I figure) and a true God of War. All of his enhanced physique, his durability, his tactical acumen, his ability to inspire others, his countless years of experience and innumerable victories, his reputation are all condensed into two special rules to represent all of it. Yeah. Two. He has an extra wound and an extra attack to top it off. That, my friends, is how you represent fluff abilities on the abstracted reality we call table top gaming.

I sincerely don't believe either of you, thorian or Primordial, to really take my points into consideration. I fully expect a detailed response enumerating the various exploits and power level the Emperor operates at to justify your proposal. And in response I'll simply repeat what myself and others have tried to drive home on the Warlord thread, the Emperor thread, the Swarmlord thread and the Magnus thread.

FLUFF =/= RULES

 Blacksails wrote:
Once again, you're missing the point.

Like my Marneus Calgar example, or really any other marine HQ I could pull out of the book, the rules need to be subtle.

Subtle.

For example; knowing all the powers in the BRB isn't sublte. It isn't creative. Its a literal interpretation of the fluff.

A subtle version would be Mastery level 5, and he may select two disciplines to know entirely, or select 10 randomly from all the disciplines. While it isn't perfect, its a quick example demonstrating to you how you should be going about crafting rules.

Taking his power in the fluff and directly translating to the table does not make for good rules.

If you wanted a subtle character that fits with the power levels of the primarchs, you should be aiming for a 600pts character, no more than 750pts.

Because, your Emperor or thorian's new iteration are on the same level as my Ork rule.

I don't know why I continue to do this though, I know you'll never actually understand what myself or almost a dozen others now have said across several threads of yours'.

 thorian wrote:
I am sorry that this has obviously riled you blacksails, but calling our work that of a 10 year olds is a bit uncalled for. I actually think my representation is pretty fair. As I said, I could have used psychic god and made him immune to all psychic powers and given him some apocalyptic barrage or vortex ability psychic powers but I havent, I have dumbed him down to a gaming balanced variant of the being. Yes it is over powered, but that is the emperor for you. He can be taken down by a trancendant c'tan juiced up to 800pts, he can be shot to death easily by crons and the like. I havent given him independent character so he cant hide and the double edged sword that is the emperors halo. So I stand by that I think this is a good interpretation of the emperor intended for use in game. I also do not believe he is an auto-win button for players.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Horus is 500 points. Empy is 1000. This is what you're saying is as bad as you're Ork rule.
I'm pointing this out for everyone else to see.

 Peregrine wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Horus is 500 points. Empy is 1000. This is what you're saying is as bad as you're Ork rule.
I'm pointing this out for everyone else to see.

It's on the same design quality level, not the same power level. Your Emperor is just a boring character, there are no interesting choices to make. As the Emperor's player you get to pick all of the best psychic powers in the game and cast all of them each turn, etc. You never have to, say, decide whether divination or biomancy is the better choice (support your other units vs. make the Emperor himself a god of combat), you just get to pick "all of the above". Meanwhile as the other player the obvious thing to do is D-weapon the Emperor to death. The only thing your character is adding to the game is "lol, i has an emprah!!!!!!!!!!!!".

Compare this to Horus, who actually involves interesting decisions by both players. Before the game even begins he gives your army new strategy options, and during the game he's a powerful but not unbeatable combat character. You have to choose carefully where to use him, and your opponent has to choose whether it's worth devoting the resources to killing him or just stalling him with meatshield units while winning the game elsewhere on the table.

ThePrimordial wrote:
Horus is 500 points. Empy is 1000. This is what you're saying is as bad as you're Ork rule.
I'm pointing this out for everyone else to see.

 thorian wrote:
Therefore I no longer take anything you might say as useful, I shall simply ignore it. You are beneath my care. I also kindly request you never post on any thread I create as I do not wish for any insight from you, it will simply be ignored anyway. But I will respond this last time.

 thorian wrote:
Firstly you have gone straight in by insulting. Therefore you have proven you are a 12 year old, immature, have an ego complex that needs feeding. In every thread I have seen you in you simply go around saying what people write is inferior or rubbish. Therefore I no longer take anything you might say as useful, I shall simply ignore it. You are beneath my care. I also kindly request you never post on any thread I create as I do not wish for any insight from you, it will simply be ignored anyway. But I will respond this last time.

 thorian wrote:
Blacksails it was not aimed at you don't worry, and thanks for the apology. I think it is very hard to balance the empy. I will ask then what do you think is better, powering him down or adding more disadvantages to him to balance out his feats? So far his downsides are:
No independant character.
Danger of using pyshic powers.
Beacon of light.
Sheer size and line of sight.
His defeat causes problems.

What would you suggest then? (ps REALLY trying not to sound sarcastic here as in no way am I meaning to, you seem like a decent enough bloke so I will treat you as one )

 Blacksails wrote:

 thorian wrote:
Blacksails it was not aimed at you don't worry, and thanks for the apology. I think it is very hard to balance the empy. I will ask then what do you think is better, powering him down or adding more disadvantages to him to balance out his feats? So far his downsides are:
No independant character.
Danger of using pyshic powers.
Beacon of light.
Sheer size and line of sight.
His defeat causes problems.

What would you suggest then? (ps REALLY trying not to sound sarcastic here as in no way am I meaning to, you seem like a decent enough bloke so I will treat you as one )

I know it wasn't aimed at me, but you really can't expect people not to insult you if you're willing to throw it right back. Two lane street and all that.

His downsides are downsides he either shouldn't have, or aren't significant to really balance out his offensive and army altering abilities. Furthermore, balance isn't predicated on advantages cancelling out disadvantages. You can (and should) make the Emperor be a reasonable unit choice for APOC only, priced between 600-750pts who has a much restricted psychic ability and limited army altering rules. Basically, take Horus, add on a small amount of stat line buffs (like, three or four points spread out), tweak Horus' rules to represent the Emperor, and then add in his psychic ability. When you think of him as a more expensive Horus with psychic powers, he'll be reasonable.

 thorian wrote:
Edited and still see him as reasonable. Still able to take on c'tan on an even footing, and able to tear apart primarchs but at the same time possible to kill.