<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/31.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
Tanks are maintained on a Chapter level, with the exception of transport vehicles like Rhinos, which are attached to specific companies. Here, it's assumed that the 2 crew (driver plus storm bolter gunner) are attached from elsewhere in the Chapter, so as to pilot the vehicles while still allowing a full company to deploy. It would be super lame if the company had to pull from it's ranks in order to crew a Rhino.

Would Landspeeders be set up the same way, with one of the crew coming from another pool (like a Rhino's crew likely do) and the other from the company's Assault Marines? Or would both come from the Assault Marines for that company?

Thoughts?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5958725.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5958725.page GMT Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5958732.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5958732.page GMT Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving? SM that showed talent for that vehicle. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5958744.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5958744.page GMT Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5958749.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5958749.page GMT Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
 BlaxicanX wrote:
Sisters of Battle.

Oh, c'mon now, the Imperium's finest warriors putting themselves at the mercy of women drivers??

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5958773.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5958773.page GMT Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
Additional Speeders & Crew may be requested from the 7th and 8th companies. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5959071.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5959071.page GMT Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
SerQuintus wrote:Battle Companies have their own integral pool of Land Speeders which are then manned by the companies assault marines when judged necessary by the companies Captain.
Additional Speeders & Crew may be requested from the 7th and 8th companies.
This is what I've read in the 2E Codex Ultramarines as well - it even has a picture of a Land Speeder where you can clearly see the crew's right shoulder pauldrons, which bears the Assault insignia and the number "VII". As per Codex Astartes company organisation, squads VII and VIII are indeed Assault squads, so it's not just a change of pauldrons for the duration of the assignment (as it happens when a company's Tactical Marines serve as tank drivers, according to the same source).

ajmerrifield wrote:Oh, c'mon now, the Imperium's finest warriors putting themselves at the mercy of women drivers??
To turn a sexist comment around - in spite of what many male drivers like to believe, statistics and studies actually suggest that on average, women are the better drivers. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5959289.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5959289.page GMT Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
 Lynata wrote:
ajmerrifield wrote:Oh, c'mon now, the Imperium's finest warriors putting themselves at the mercy of women drivers??
To turn a sexist comment around - in spite of what many male drivers like to believe, statistics and studies actually suggest that on average, women are the better drivers.

That comment, in case you didn't get it, was tongue-planted-firmly-in-cheek.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5959457.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5959457.page GMT Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5959472.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5959472.page GMT Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
 Lynata wrote:
Well, it wasn't funny.

Just like a Sister of Battle, taking one little joke and next thing you know it's "Heretic this" and "Heretic that" and soon there's folks being burned at the stake... ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5959518.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5959518.page GMT Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
 ajmerrifield wrote:
 Lynata wrote:
Well, it wasn't funny.

Just like a Sister of Battle, taking one little joke and next thing you know it's "Heretic this" and "Heretic that" and soon there's folks being burned at the stake...

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5959599.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5959599.page GMT Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
...although I suppose to an outside observer, the crazy things she did in that Land Raider would likely only reinforce the belief that women drivers are crazy. The fluff described the Rhino's machine spirit (IE, the engine) as absolutely SCREAMING in protest at the things she was making it do.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5959612.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5959612.page GMT Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
 ajmerrifield wrote:
 Lynata wrote:
Well, it wasn't funny.

Just like a Sister of Battle, taking one little joke and next thing you know it's "Heretic this" and "Heretic that" and soon there's folks being burned at the stake...


yeh fight the power if youve noticed that sisters of battle have no land speeders or hovering objects they only have tanks which cant fall from the skie ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5959617.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5959617.page GMT Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
TiamatRoar wrote:
There's one fluff piece where a sister of battle was forced to get behind the wheel of a Rhino (that I think was originally an Astartes Rhino. Not sure.) to save some holy relics from some orks, and was an absolutely amazing driver with the thing.

...although I suppose to an outside observer, the crazy things she did in that Land Raider would likely only reinforce the belief that women drivers are crazy. The fluff described the Rhino's machine spirit (IE, the engine) as absolutely SCREAMING in protest at the things she was making it do.


Rhinos becoming Land Raiders if driven by sisters.... now if we put her into a LR we get????



To contribute more than jokes, how about "auto-pilot" also called PotMS ?
I know its an extra included in some of the more expansive vehicles...but think about this LS ( aka "kitt" )...

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5960008.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5960008.page GMT Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
TiamatRoar wrote:
There's one fluff piece where a sister of battle was forced to get behind the wheel of a Rhino (that I think was originally an Astartes Rhino. Not sure.)

No, it was a Sororitas Rhino.

See for yourself. It's a cool piece of fluff.
Spoiler:
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5962263.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5962263.page GMT Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
Thanks for the story-repost. Well, it does still show how a sister can be a competent driver and a crazy one at the same time. (though in this case it was more than justified. I'm just joking around)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5962301.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5962301.page GMT Re:Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5962327.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5962327.page GMT Re:Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
 rhino-40-000 wrote:
whats the massive differance between their rhino and the space marine rhino

There aren't really any, as far as I'm aware. Apart from a load of iconography on the Sororitas ones, it's all coming from the same STC.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5962339.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5962339.page GMT Re:Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
 Troike wrote:
 rhino-40-000 wrote:
whats the massive differance between their rhino and the space marine rhino

There aren't really any, as far as I'm aware. Apart from a load of iconography on the Sororitas ones, it's all coming from the same STC.


yeh who drives them the henchmen guys or the astartes ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5962349.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5962349.page GMT Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?

Marine Rhinos appear to be mostly utilitarian, although obviously some Chapters would deviate from this. SoB Rhinos tend to flaunt the Ecclesiarchy's wealth by sporting fancy but useless trappings and blessed insignia, sometimes even laud hailers to blast holy hymns to inspire the Imperial forces and/or drive fear into the hearts of their enemies.

Other than that, I suppose a the Marines' seats would be a little more spacious, but that should be it. Maybe the Sororitas' version of the RH1-N0 (the chassis used by all Imperial forces) would use the additional space to store spare ammunition or medical supplies. The latter might be important to counteract the issue that their power armour lacks an onboard medical suite (aside from basic painkillers, depending on which source of fluff you go by), whilst the Marines have it already built-in.

Just a theory, ofc.

rhino-40-000 wrote:yeh who drives them the henchmen guys or the astartes
Going by the 2E Codex and a recent White Dwarf article, Marines pulled from the Reserves, or (should they not be needed as infantry) the Battle Company's own - a little like with the Landspeeders, I guess, just with Tactical Marines instead of Assault. Supposedly they change their Tac-Squad shoulder pauldron for Armoury insignia when assuming this role.

Unless you were talking about SoB Rhinos - see Troike's post.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5962359.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5962359.page GMT Re:Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
 rhino-40-000 wrote:
 Troike wrote:
 rhino-40-000 wrote:
whats the massive differance between their rhino and the space marine rhino

There aren't really any, as far as I'm aware. Apart from a load of iconography on the Sororitas ones, it's all coming from the same STC.


yeh who drives them the henchmen guys or the astartes

Wait, what? I thought you were talking about SoB Rhinos? Because Astartes would not be driving SoB vehicles. SoBs would, as we saw in the above fluff. And as we've seen above, Astartes drive their own vehicles.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5962361.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5962361.page GMT Re:Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving? SoB Rhinos? Because Astartes would not be driving SoB vehicles. SoBs would, as we saw in the above fluff. And as we've seen above, Astartes drive their own vehicles.
they are a form of astarties with the ower armour but my firt question who?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5962366.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5962366.page GMT Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
 Lynata wrote:
SoB Rhinos tend to flaunt the Ecclesiarchy's wealth by sporting fancy but useless trappings and blessed insignia,

Cool piece of trivia for you: SoB Rhinos actually have AV 10 on all sides. However, all of the iconography on it actually pushes the front and sides up to AV 11!

 rhino-40-000 wrote:
they are a form of astarties with the ower armour but my firt question who?

Well they're not actually a form of Astartes, since they don't have all of the biological augmentations that the Astartes get. The term "Astartes" refers to the superhumans, not a soldier who is issued with power armour. But anyway, yes Sisters drive their own vehicles. not "henchmen".]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5962386.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5962386.page GMT Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
 ajmerrifield wrote:
 Lynata wrote:
Well, it wasn't funny.

Just like a Sister of Battle, taking one little joke and next thing you know it's "Heretic this" and "Heretic that" and soon there's folks being burned at the stake...


The wise man learns from the deaths of others.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5962659.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5962659.page GMT Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5967183.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5967183.page GMT Re:Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5967959.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5967959.page GMT Re:Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5969029.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5969029.page GMT Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
Come time for a fight, compnies choose their equipment, so might go in by drop pod, by thunderhawk ( carrying raiders/rhinos etc).

Now, to maximise the fighting potential of the company, there aren't enough techs to drive everything, and you don't want to waste a marine as a driver, what's left?

Remember, they'll know where they're going in, what the enemy is likely to be?

So why not use servitors as drivers? And as gunners?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5969511.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5969511.page GMT Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
IG GENERAL wrote:Now, to maximise the fighting potential of the company, there aren't enough techs to drive everything, and you don't want to waste a marine as a driver, what's left?
The Reserve Companies.

Going by GW's fluff it is standard practice to attach elements from the reserves to a Battle Company. The Reserve Companies are not independent fighting organisations like the Battle Companies; they exist solely to provide individual support squads, man the supporting vehicles, and replace casualties.
A lot of people may mistake Astartes Reserves to work like they do in contemporary military forces (meaning, large formations capable of independent action held back until they are needed), but this is a misinterpretation based on the term.

IG GENERAL wrote:So why not use servitors as drivers? And as gunners?
I'd assume Servitors just aren't good enough. From the fluff I've read they are very focused on monotonous tasks and unable to quickly adapt to changing circumstances. For the Space Marines, however, this is an important part of their tactics and thus a required skill of their forces.
Plus, a Marine driver can leave his vehicle if he has to, either because it was wrecked (to commence repairs or join the fight on foot) or because the situation warrants it in some other way.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5969568.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5969568.page GMT Re:Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
It seems that both of a Landspeeder's crew are drawn from the Assault Marines of the company. In an interesting twist though, there is conflicting information on who drives a tank. The color entry for the Whirlwind (2nd ed Codex) says that Tactical Marines normally provide vehicle crews. But on the next page, the Razorback says that crew are usually draw from reserves. It seems odd that a Rhino would be crewed by Tactical Marines, since that could leave squads with 80% strength (1 driving, 1 manning the army of storm bolters). It should be noted that both of these tanks (circa 2nd edition) were a part of the armory and not any one company.

The whole reason this is coming up is because I'd like to work on a single company of Space Marines that are adherent to the Codex Astartes. For the time being, I largely only want to deal with that company's Marines (plus any reservists for vehicle crews). This is largely a painting project, and I'll be marking and numbering all squads, so I want everyone accounted for correctly.

I remember reading that someone starting counting Marines to come up with a better number for Chapter sizes (in that it isn't strictly 1000 Marines). I recall that there were handfuls of Marines kicking around for vehicle crews, Command Squads, and other previously unaccounted for Marines. So that's sort of where this is coming from. Is a company strictly those 104-106 Marines (10 squads plus command), or are there other Marines within a company but outside of squad structure to handle vehicle crews and other empty spaces?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5969817.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5969817.page GMT Re:Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
ScooterinAB wrote:It seems that both of a Landspeeder's crew are drawn from the Assault Marines of the company. In an interesting twist though, there is conflicting information on who drives a tank. The color entry for the Whirlwind (2nd ed Codex) says that Tactical Marines normally provide vehicle crews. But on the next page, the Razorback says that crew are usually draw from reserves.
It could be the Tactical Marines from the Reserve - or it could simply depend on the decision of the Captain who is in command of the mission.

The Space Marines seem to prefer maximum adaptability, which is why (according to the Codex) every single Marine ends up being trained in every single weapon and as a driver of every vehicle. They're producing Jacks-of-all-Trades that can be reassigned on a moment's notice as the situation requires.

It's like a huge pool of assets a commander can choose from and select almost any combination of troops, weapons, and vehicles to pursue the strategy he thinks is most efficient for the mission at hand. Dropping into a Hive? Have everyone turn up as infantry. Need recon or additional fire support? Tap the Reserves. Need transportation? Split up a squad and let them man a bunch of Rhinos for the rest - or get a couple Tacticals from the Reserves to free up your potential drivers.

In short, I'd see it less like "infantry used as drivers" but rather "drivers used as additional infantry" - perhaps it seems less inefficient that way.
The Astartes are simply getting the most out of the 10x10x10 Marines they are permitted as troops.

"Space Marines are trained to operate all manner of machines and more than any other warriors of the Imperium they can adapt to fulfil any combat role. All Space Marines are able to act as crew for the vehicles maintained in each Chapter's armoury. It is normally the Tactical squads which provide vehicle crews. When fighting in this role they replace their normal tactical markings with crew badges, but otherwise they retain their company colours and Chapter insignia as normal."
- 2E C:UM p.35

"Unless their mission is very unusual, every Ultramarines battle force will be based around at least one battle company. Sometimes it will be supported by detachments from other companies. Some members of the Veteran 1st company and the Scounts of the 10th company will often be attached to the battle company, as will a number of battle brothers from the 6th and 7th Tactical companies operating the supporting vehicles." [...]
"The reserve companies are just that, reserves. They will be used to replace losses in the battle companies and crew vehicles."
- WD #300

"Tactical Reserve Companies 6 and 7 are comprised entirely of Tactical squads. They are intended to act as a general reserve, providing the Chapter with a powerful, flexible force able to launch flank attacks en masse, bolster the main line or combat unexpected enemy manoeuvres. In addition, the Marines of the 6th and 7th Companies can also act as crews for large, independent formations of the various armoured vehicles deployed by the Chapter. Thus the Chapter is able to field entire companies of Land Raiders or Predator battle tanks, for example.
Furthermore, the two companies have a special usage as bike and land speeder detachments. The entire 6th Company can be deployed as Bike squadrons or detachments. The 7th Company is likewise trained to operate as large scale Land Speeder formations."
- 2E C:UM p.30

ScooterinAB wrote:It seems odd that a Rhino would be crewed by Tactical Marines, since that could leave squads with 80% strength (1 driving, 1 manning the army of storm bolters). It should be noted that both of these tanks (circa 2nd edition) were a part of the armory and not any one company.
This seems to depend on the Chapter. From the same source (on the Whirlwind page, but referring to all vehicles but the Rhinos - which are firmly attached to a company by default):
"Alternatively they may be allocated to an individual company under the command of its Captain. In the latter case the vehicles are given appropriate company badges and are assigned a simple number."

I don't think the Rhino drivers are coming from the squads they are transporting, though. Rather that they are individual Tactical Marines pulled from the Reserves, or possibly Marines from a squad within the Battle Company that has been split up to support several other squads.

ScooterinAB wrote:I remember reading that someone starting counting Marines to come up with a better number for Chapter sizes (in that it isn't strictly 1000 Marines). I recall that there were handfuls of Marines kicking around for vehicle crews, Command Squads, and other previously unaccounted for Marines. So that's sort of where this is coming from. Is a company strictly those 104-106 Marines (10 squads plus command), or are there other Marines within a company but outside of squad structure to handle vehicle crews and other empty spaces?
All of this is explained in the Codex already - see page 19 in the 2E Codex. This organisation is also repeated in the 5E Codex, and that book even features an entire Battle Company with every single Space Marine pictured on two pages.

The confusion seems to originate from fans who, for some reason, completely missed the part about the Headquarters Staff or the explanation for the drivers (even though it was always part of Marine Codex fluff since way back in 2E) and then just proceeded to make up their own ideas. I've seen an entire website dedicated to such speculation, including the "evidence" that GW supposedly messed up the numbers because the Apothecaries and Chaplains etc don't fit into the "10x10x10=1000" formula, even though the material from Games Workshop has clearly explained this. It's an unnecessary and entirely made-up contradiction that only persists because a lot of fans like to debate or look up fanmade stuff rather than taking a look at the actual books themselves.

I also recommend the Index Astartes article on the Codex Astartes Chapter Organisation as printed in WD #252. Here is an online backup of the article. It doesn't actually contain much that is not already said elsewhere, but it's a neat summary.

Spoiler:


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5970032.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5970032.page GMT Re:Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
ScooterinAB wrote:The color entry for the Whirlwind (2nd ed Codex) says that Tactical Marines normally provide vehicle crews. But on the next page, the Razorback says that crew are usually draw from reserves. It seems odd that a Rhino would be crewed by Tactical Marines, since that could leave squads with 80% strength (1 driving, 1 manning the army of storm bolters).


Rhinos take one crew. Companies have private Rhino pools.

The main mistake though, is that you used "Tactical Marine." "It is normally the Tactical squads which provide vehicle crews. "

In Armies of the Imperium, a full marine company is nine regular squads, one command squad, and ten rhinos. Those ten rhinos are equal to one tactical squad; that is what happened to the tenth regular squad.

If you build any vehicles that are in company colors, you need to subtract those two crew from the 100 marine squad sizes. If they were crewed by someone else, they would be in that company's colors and probably commanded by that company's officer.

Lynata wrote:I don't think the Rhino drivers are coming from the squads they are transporting, though. Rather that they are individual Tactical Marines pulled from the Reserves, or possibly Marines from a squad within the Battle Company that has been split up to support several other squads.


This is a thread about land speeders: land speeders that come in squads of two, four, or six marines. The squad assigned to them has been cut in size by at least four marines; those marines must be doing something else. The same is true of bike squads, attack bike squads, and regular squads cut down to fit in razorbacks.

Also, if there are ten squads in a battle, they are not all buzzing around as independent particles. If a squad in a rhino, a predator, and a land speeder are all driving around together, they are going to be in a little platoon with someone in charge, and they might all even be from the same company.

It's an unnecessary and entirely made-up contradiction that only persists because a lot of fans like to debate or look up fanmade stuff rather than taking a look at the actual books themselves.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5978050.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5978050.page GMT Re:Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
pelicaniforce wrote:


In Armies of the Imperium, a full marine company is nine regular squads, one command squad, and ten rhinos. Those ten rhinos are equal to one tactical squad; that is what happened to the tenth regular squad.

If you build any vehicles that are in company colors, you need to subtract those two crew from the 100 marine squad sizes. If they were crewed by someone else, they would be in that company's colors and probably commanded by that company's officer.

Lynata wrote:It's an unnecessary and entirely made-up contradiction that only persists because a lot of fans like to debate or look up fanmade stuff rather than taking a look at the actual books themselves.


So Armies of the Imperium says 10 squads including command? Problem solved.
GW got it mixed.
Its 11 squads like we see in more recent material ( but command squad size gone down to 5 in 4th ed ) and the company is able to move itself without additional marines to crew vehicles.

The neccessary and real contradiction is, GW moved from vehicle ( crew included ) to vehicle ( crew? ), and had to explain this and failed to keep it consistent.

Landspeeders and Bikes and Jumppacks are just equipment. The ASM aren't tied to a squad size of 10 beyond game mechanics. 3rd ed C: SM listed the amount of gear a company has and IIRC there was always enough speeders and bikes and JP to field the ASM in any possible config.





]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5978170.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5978170.page GMT Re:Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
pelicaniforce wrote:Also, if there are ten squads in a battle, they are not all buzzing around as independent particles. If a squad in a rhino, a predator, and a land speeder are all driving around together, they are going to be in a little platoon with someone in charge, and they might all even be from the same company.
Doesn't that sound a bit "contemporary"? From the way I'm reading the material, the Space Marines don't know "platoons". They have squads led by a Sergeant, and they have a company led by a Captain, who will issue orders to the Sergeants.
Though I suppose a Captain could temporarily appoint a unit's Sergeant to take charge of a specific assignment and order other units to support him, if that's what you meant?

You raise an interesting point regarding the size of Landspeeder and Bike squads, though. Given that those elements are often said to come from the Reserves, I'd think that the Captain of the Battle Company tasked with the mission at hand would order only as many Marines as required, causing the remaining squad members to remain at home and continue their training. If these vehicles instead come from the Battle Company itself, the Captain could assign Marines from depleted squads as per its current strength, or split up a squad in a way that they are assigned to different vehicle groups. Tactical versatility at its most extreme.

As for the Razorback ...

"Tactical squads are the most numerous in a chapter and form the backbone of a fighting force. As their name suggests they are highly flexible having the tactical adaptability to deal with virtually any foe. Often battlefield situations require Tactical squads to be split down into two five man Combat squads. These smaller squads operate independently from one-another, using the holy bolter to dispense the Emperor's mercy."
- GW website, Space Marine Combat Squads

I'd theorise that Razorbacks are (apart from their fire support role) intended to be used primarily to carry 5-man Combat Squads, possibly with an attached Apothecary or another character, though there is likely no rule to "max out" the vehicle's capacity.
That's just how I would explain it if I were the writer, mind you.


1hadhq wrote:So Armies of the Imperium says 10 squads including command? Problem solved.
GW got it mixed.
Its 11 squads like we see in more recent material ( but command squad size gone down to 5 in 4th ed ) and the company is able to move itself without additional marines to crew vehicles.
"Recent"? It's been 11 squads since the 2nd edition Codex Ultramarines.

Armies of the Imperium was released several years before that. I'd not be surprised if more things have changed than that...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5978283.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5978283.page GMT Re:Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
 Lynata wrote:
Though I suppose a Captain could temporarily appoint a unit's Sergeant to take charge of a specific assignment and order other units to support him, if that's what you meant?


Yes.

If a sergeant, veteran sergeant, or chaplain is in charge of his own little group of units, they might all be from the same company, with any groups from other companies in the charge of their own sergeant, veteran sergeant, chaplain, or captain. There are, after all, ten captains and only four battle companies.

... I'd think that the Captain of the Battle Company tasked with the mission at hand would order only as many Marines as required...


Reserve companies have squads and officers. The reserve captains have to make their units available to assist other companies

...causing the remaining squad members to remain at home and continue their training.


?

A battle company has only two assault squads (and limited tactical or devastator squads). In this case, it is nice to make sure they are the most reliable and experienced marines available. However, a squad from one of the reserve companies will usually be one of at least three squads of the same type, so it is not as important that they be quite as battle tested.

That is why reserve companies are made up of less experienced marines. That does not mean they are schools, or something. They just send three squads, a veteran sergeant or two, and maybe the chaplain. They do this because the have been ordered to release some strength to whatever company, and they make the determination of which marines to send.

Tactical Marines


This happened again. The description is for tactical squads, not "tactical marines." I'm not sure I am really comfortable using that term. It is possible it comes up in modern codexes or black library or somewhere, but I do not really care for the notion that such things have a formal or relevant existence.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5978570.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5978570.page GMT Re:Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
pelicaniforce wrote:?

A battle company has only two assault squads (and limited tactical or devastator squads). In this case, it is nice to make sure they are the most reliable and experienced marines available. However, a squad from one of the reserve companies will usually be one of at least three squads of the same type, so it is not as important that they be quite as battle tested.
That is why reserve companies are made up of less experienced marines. That does not mean they are schools, or something. They just send three squads, a veteran sergeant or two, and maybe the chaplain. They do this because the have been ordered to release some strength to whatever company, and they make the determination of which marines to send.
?

I think we're talking past each other. You were kind of questioning what would happen to the other Marines in a 10-man squad if it would be split up to supply 2, 4 or 6 drivers. And I'm saying they'd most likely stay behind and continue their daily duties - or be assigned to other vehicles/stations.
It rests with the responsibility of the Captain tasked with a mission to arrange for the most efficient distribution of personnel. He has a number of men from both his own companies as well as the Chapter's reserves to distribute to various available roles, all depending on mission parameters and battlefield circumstances.

pelicaniforce wrote:
Tactical Marines
This happened again. The description is for tactical squads, not "tactical marines." I'm not sure I am really comfortable using that term. It is possible it comes up in modern codexes or black library or somewhere, but I do not really care for the notion that such things have a formal or relevant existence.
I'm sorry, but that term goes right back to 2nd edition (C:UM p.18).

And what's the beef with it, anyways? It may not come up very often, but to me it still sounds like a perfectly apt description of a Space Marine's assigned primary role. A Space Marine assigned to a Tactical Squad. A Tactical Space Marine. Just like a Marine assigned to an Assault squad is an Assault Marine. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5978960.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5978960.page GMT Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5979022.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5979022.page GMT Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
Commander_Nightflier wrote:but for the most part tech marines drive tanks
Is that from some Black Library novel? As the Codex fluff uniformly says differently.

Note I'm not saying it's "wrong", just that GW's books depict it differently. I think it would help a lot for topics such as these if people would add where exactly they've seen something mentioned, if it was in some Codex or a novel, or if it is "just" their personal opinion.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5979042.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5979042.page GMT Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5980437.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5980437.page GMT Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
Commander_Nightflier wrote:I just figured from the Shoulder pad logo, which is mechanicus and they are often painted red, which is the color for Techmarines. also, I dont like to use much in the way of fluff from old codices, cause the fluff has a tendancy to change in between them
Ah, yeah, this has been mentioned earlier in the thread - the 2E Codex mentioned that vehicle crews switch pauldrons whenever they're assigned this way. Although this detail has (to my knowledge) not been repeated since, the article about UM battle doctrins in WD #300 did reiterate that vehicle crews are commonly pulled from the Reserve companies (something also supported by the 5th edition Codex:SM) .. and Techmarines are not assigned to a company but rather a Chapter's armoury, so they would be out of the question. Conversely, I never heard these bits of fluff changed or overwritten in any other GW source. I wonder if the 6E Marine Codex says anything about this, though? I did not have a chance to read it myself, so far!

Anyways, feel free to disregard that if you don't like it and still prefer your own conclusions. As much as I like to discuss GW's version of the setting, it remains just one possible way to approach the background - as numerous novels and other outsourced products have shown. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5980562.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5980562.page GMT Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
 Lynata wrote:
Commander_Nightflier wrote:I just figured from the Shoulder pad logo, which is mechanicus and they are often painted red, which is the color for Techmarines. also, I dont like to use much in the way of fluff from old codices, cause the fluff has a tendancy to change in between them
Ah, yeah, this has been mentioned earlier in the thread - the 2E Codex mentioned that vehicle crews switch pauldrons whenever they're assigned this way. Although this detail has (to my knowledge) not been repeated since, the article about UM battle doctrins in WD #300 did reiterate that vehicle crews are commonly pulled from the Reserve companies (something also supported by the 5th edition Codex:SM) .. and Techmarines are not assigned to a company but rather a Chapter's armoury, so they would be out of the question. Conversely, I never heard these bits of fluff changed or overwritten in any other GW source. I wonder if the 6E Marine Codex says anything about this, though? I did not have a chance to read it myself, so far!

Anyways, feel free to disregard that if you don't like it and still prefer your own conclusions. As much as I like to discuss GW's version of the setting, it remains just one possible way to approach the background - as numerous novels and other outsourced products have shown.


Can't beleive you really try to tell someone your THEORY overrides models produced by GW.....

Techmarines aren't staying at home. No one except the Techmarines (plus non-marine personnel like servitors ) sports the markings of the mechanicum in a chapter.

But yes, 6th ed is going to tell......
*looks into his crystal ball*
nothing about crews since they aren't of interest after GW moved from :
- hey, you got 1 crew. It may survive and you can place it on the TT
to
- hey, you have a vehicle and its crew is going to die with their vehicle.


The rumors are free of background info. So weeks to go. If they don't choose to "answer" fluff questions like these in DLC snippets...

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5980771.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5980771.page GMT Re:Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
"It is normally the Tactical squads which provide vehicle crews. When fighting in this role they replace their normal tactical markings with crew badges, but otherwise retain their company colours and Chapter insignia as normal."
- 2E C:UM

And if that's too old for you:

"Some members of the Veteran 1st Company and the Scouts of the 10th Company will often be attached to the Battle Company, as will a number of Battle Brothers from the 6th and 7th Tactical companies operating the supporting vehicles."
- WD #300

"A Chapter also includes a number of officers and specialists who stand aside from the company organisation. [...] Included amongst them are the psychic Librarians from the Chapter's Librarius, Chaplains from the Reclusiam, and Techmarines together with their Servitors."
- 5E C:SM

I'm sure I don't need to point out that the only conclusion of "vehicles are normally crewed by members of the Reserves" + "there are no Techmarines in the Reserves" would be that Techmarines cannot possibly be the drivers mentioned in the WD article.
In fact, the 5E Codex also features the Ultramarines special character Brother-Sergeant Chronus, who, in spite of bearing the markings you are referring to (and even being assigned to the Chapter's Armoury and thus those vehicles not permanently assigned to a specific company), is evidently not a Techmarine, given his rank and title.

Lastly, the position of vehicle driver is also entirely missing from the description of the Techmarines' roles in WD #291:
"Before battle, the Techmarines ritually prepare their charges for war, raising the anger of the war-spirits of the weapons and vehicles that are being employed in whatever coming conflict they are to take part in. They have a strong bond with the vehicles and weapons they issue to the Space Marines, treating the equipment as though it belongs to them and the Space Marines are merely borrowing it temporarily. Once deployed for battle, the Techmarines and their servitor thralls ritually bless the weapons and tanks of the force, uncaging the war-spirits and allowing them to see the targets of their wrath. Together with a retinue of cybernetically altered servitors, the Techmarines can also effect battlefield repairs on vehicles, healing the damage done to armour and rekindling the war-spirit that it might fight once more. At battle's end, each wound done to the vehicles and wargear issued by the Techmarines is reverently repaired and recorded in the Litanies of Battle, and it is not uncommon for some vehicles to remain in service for many hundreds, if not thousands, of years. The oldest known serving vehicle is a Rhino belonging to the Salamanders, known and honoured as Nocturne's Hammer, said to have carried the great Primarch, Vulkan. It is a position of great honour to minister to such holy artefacts and those Techmarines who honour such revered pieces of technology are accorded great respect by their peers."

I know you really dislike my posts on this subject, but really ...



(sorry, I'm usually not this snarky, but your tone and the use of capslock warranted this kind of reaction )]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5981550.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5981550.page GMT Re:Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
 Lynata wrote:
That bit wasn't a theory, actually. I'm merely pointing out what it says in the books.


Merely pointing out isn't what I see there...

Spoiler:


6th ed dead tree material should be compatible with 6th ed digital material. And maybe some of 5th ed too.

Currently the background is stretched beyond the reach of many.
Nowadays GW offers:
- Rulebooks, codices and Expansions and supplements as printed or digital or limited. ( upcoming divide: language )
- DLC of index astartes, munitorum and warlords in digital.
- BL in printed, audio and digital and limited...
- FW in print.
But they don't offer OOP reprints of ancient editions ( except a few BL books ) or collections of WD articles anymore.




The info contained in the current editions is IMO meant to serve a purpose IMhO.
So details on crew are included when those crews may enter the TT because they could survive the loss of the vehicle and they feel like we should know what we get there. But that changed and the details may no longer look so important and the space was reused for something else. GW's choice.

They also don't feel they have to update everything. A C: SM 5th points to Insignium Astartes at page 21 for further reference .
- Codex says command squad is: > rules = 5 marines , > organization chart = ?? unseen? .
- IndexA says: 5-10 marines and shows a squad of 10. IA is currently available as print on demand by BL.
Changing the format to A4 and not updating ? We don't need no 100 % compatibility...
6th ed may point to something else, possibly digital.



The original subject from which I got carried away ( very sorry OP ).:

3rd edition SM listed the landspeeders per company. 5th edition SM said the landspeeders are distributed according to mission. Landspeeders are available to 2nd,3rd,4th,5th,7th and 8th co in both.
Except the 7th who is a tactical co, any landspeeder doesn't have to have crew without the tactical "assault" mark.
Insignium Astartes ( 5th ed refers to it ) page 45 says:

...
A Chapters Assault Marines and the entire 7th Reserve Company are trained to fight as Land Speeder Squadrons. This includes the more heavily armed variants such as the Tornado and Typhoon.
The Marine crews for these war machines retain their normal squad markings. Seargents do not display back banners whilst crewing Land Speeders. The Land Speeder will display Chapter , Squad and Tactical markings.
.....


One could imagine the marines of the 7th ( tactical ) keep their armor unchanged because of this.



 Lynata wrote:

In fact, the 5E Codex also features the Ultramarines special character Brother-Sergeant Chronus, who, in spite of bearing the markings you are referring to (and even being assigned to the Chapter's Armoury and thus those vehicles not permanently assigned to a specific company), is evidently not a Techmarine, given his rank and title.

Nice attempt. But not true.

There are no markings except Ultramarine chapter badges, skulls without cogwheels etc at the Chronus model.
I should know, I own one. Wanna look? I am sure I have a few vehicle upgrade sprues too....
( interested to jump ship to new space marines? Got a a unused chronus )

The fliers are crewed by ..... techmarines? and may sport as gunners....servitors? The upgrade sprue clearly delivers a techy looking marine with cult mechanicus badge....

More and more techy marines in GW kits...


 Lynata wrote:

I know you really dislike my posts on this subject, but really ...

(sorry, I'm usually not this snarky, but your tone and the use of capslock warranted this kind of reaction )


Its really shortsighted to jump to the conclusion I "dislike" your posts.

More like I dislike the "sound of a broken LP" .


Plus:
I used the shift key. Keyboard Machine spirit does not like too much caps-lock


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5982582.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5982582.page GMT Re:Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving?
1hadhq wrote:
Merely pointing out isn't what I see there...

6th ed dead tree material should be compatible with 6th ed digital material. And maybe some of 5th ed too.
Currently the background is stretched beyond the reach of many.
Nowadays GW offers:
- Rulebooks, codices and Expansions and supplements as printed or digital or limited. ( upcoming divide: language )
- DLC of index astartes, munitorum and warlords in digital.
- BL in printed, audio and digital and limited...
- FW in print.
But they don't offer OOP reprints of ancient editions ( except a few BL books ) or collections of WD articles anymore.

The info contained in the current editions is IMO meant to serve a purpose IMhO.
So details on crew are included when those crews may enter the TT because they could survive the loss of the vehicle and they feel like we should know what we get there. But that changed and the details may no longer look so important and the space was reused for something else. GW's choice.

They also don't feel they have to update everything. A C: SM 5th points to Insignium Astartes at page 21 for further reference .
- Codex says command squad is: > rules = 5 marines , > organization chart = ?? unseen? .
- IndexA says: 5-10 marines and shows a squad of 10. IA is currently available as print on demand by BL.
Changing the format to A4 and not updating ? We don't need no 100 % compatibility...
6th ed may point to something else, possibly digital.
You were not "pointing out" anything, you threw an accusation into the room without backing it up. Also, please, use entire sentences if you are trying to make a point. I really don't want to sound like an ass, but the conversational format you're displaying in this post makes it really hard for me to follow the point you are trying to make. Feel free to fall back to the German language if you have to; I'm sure that our mother tongue should allow for accurate and precise communication without details of one's argument getting "lost in translation".

So, I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here, but I will make a guess:

Are you trying to argue that only fluff in the 6E Rulebook and Codex should be used for discussing the background? If so, then that would be your decision, but I hope you'd understand if few other fans of the IP would follow suit. It has long since been a tradition of sorts to debate the material in the entirety of its breadth, and this includes older books, especially when they include details that were, for whatever reason (we both seem to agree that it was about saving space for something else), omitted from later releases, but that would fit in neatly and explain why certain things are presented in the way they are.

Since the franchise doesn't have a consistent canon and people are discussing all sorts of sources, I see no problem with presenting older sources, seeing as the writers at GW have said they aim for consistency between their own releases, so why should anyone assume that something doesn't apply anymore just because it is old, but has never been overwritten?
Either way, that does not make it a "theory" of mine, it is one of the many possibilities presented in the official material, and it happens to be the one that comes from the studio writers themselves.

As for the Command Squad - the Captain and the specialists standing apart from standard company structure has been in the fluff since 2E Codex Ultramarines; I am not aware of this ever having changed, and the 5E Codex, too, still mentions Librarians, Chaplains, Techmarines, Honor Guard being part of the Headquarters staff. Check the big table on page 17.

1hadhq wrote: 3rd edition SM listed the landspeeders per company. 5th edition SM said the landspeeders are distributed according to mission.
I don't see what this has to do with the topic or our discussion, but ...

As Codex fluff notes, vehicles are part of the Armoury by default, but can be attached to a company temporarily or on a semi-permanent basis as decided upon by HQ and the company Captain. It is thus entirely possible that two organisational charts could display the vehicles in different slots, all depending on whether the chart aims to depict the default structure or is a momentary "snapshot" of the Chapter. Now, if you look at the 3E chart which does, as you correctly pointed out, show Landspeeders and other vehicles such as tanks attached to the company, you will also see the small notes attached to these entries, which tell us things such as "2nd Battle Company presently mobilised on Talassar to respond to immediate requirements" or "majority of 3rd Company in transit to Joran VI". Since it is to be expected that a Strike Force draws vehicles from the Armoury, I do not necessarily see a conflict here.

Alternatively, it could also be possible that this information in the 3E chart is simply outdated. GW does "retcon" a few details from time to time, and as I'm sure you remember I have already suggested in a prior debate that the 3E chart is quite simply a one-off deviation.
I'm not sure how you deal with such conflicts, but my modus operandi is: if in doubt, go with the latest source from the same origin, as it arguably indicates that the writers came to a new decision.

On a sidenote, as far as I can see, Insignium Astartes is not a core GW Studio publication but a Black Library book. I know that to most people this does not make a difference, but at the end of the day these background books from BL such as the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer (as entertaining as it may be; in fact I'd recommend it to anyone just for the fun of reading it alone) regularly contradict Codex fluff.
Note that I am not disputing the line you quoted, though; Land Speeder crews have sported Assault squad markings even way back in the 2E Codex.

1hadhq wrote:Nice attempt. But not true. There are no markings except Ultramarine chapter badges, skulls without cogwheels etc at the Chronus model.
Not an "attempt", but flawed memory. After checking back on earlier threads, it was indeed not Chronus but other driver Marine minis which had the skullcog insignia, as reported by HBMC. I take it those are the Flier crews you are referring to below?

It's a weird and sad oversight that Chronus does seem to lack this detail, though. Always cooler when the minis fit to the fluff.
Unless GW has changed said fluff, but in this case I'd expect it to be actually printed somewhere.

1hadhq wrote:The fliers are crewed by ..... techmarines? and may sport as gunners....servitors? The upgrade sprue clearly delivers a techy looking marine with cult mechanicus badge....
To reiterate:
"It is normally the Tactical squads which provide vehicle crews. When fighting in this role they replace their normal tactical markings with crew badges, but otherwise retain their company colours and Chapter insignia as normal."

Feel free to find me a reference of Techmarines being used as drivers or pilots anywhere in GW's fluff, though. As already quoted from the Index Astartes, their description so far omits such role entirely.

1hadhq wrote:Its really shortsighted to jump to the conclusion I "dislike" your posts.
More like I dislike the "sound of a broken LP"
If you feel my posts are akin to a "broken LP", it is obviously the same thing. You should at least stand by your opinion, as disrespectful as it is to publicly shout it out. Do you think I feel different about your posts? Yet you won't see me attributing such things to another dakkanaut. Not without first having been goaded into it, anyways ... there have been a few times where I "took off my gloves", so to speak, though I am not particularly proud of occasionally dropping to that level. I am but a human, though, and don't feel like having to expose myself to everything without lashing back in some small form, as childish as it may be.

1hadhq wrote:Plus:
I used the shift key. Keyboard Machine spirit does not like too much caps-lock
No internet meme for the shift key, sorry. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5983237.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5983237.page GMT Re:Codex Astartes and Landspeeders. Who's driving? Squads have not been around since 2nd edition.

Apothecaries, Chaplains and Standard Bearers have been around since 1st edition, but they were independents who would be attached to other squads - the idea of forming them into a single squad with ADDITIONAL marines was only introduced with 3rd. (and the earliest fleshing out of that was Insignium Astartes which specifically stated it was codex approved but ad-hoc and temporary, not a mandated requirement under the Codex).

pelicaniforce wrote:

In Armies of the Imperium, a full marine company is nine regular squads, one command squad, and ten rhinos. Those ten rhinos are equal to one tactical squad; that is what happened to the tenth regular squad.


It should be noted the companies were not quite the same as they are now, a Battle Company in Armies of the Imperium is a 3/3/3 split between Tactical, Devastator and Assault.

 Lynata wrote:
[quote=1hadhqNow, if you look at the 3E chart which does, as you correctly pointed out, show Landspeeders and other vehicles such as tanks attached to the company, you will also see the small notes attached to these entries, which tell us things such as "2nd Battle Company presently mobilised on Talassar to respond to immediate requirements" or "majority of 3rd Company in transit to Joran VI". Since it is to be expected that a Strike Force draws vehicles from the Armoury, I do not necessarily see a conflict here.


Except its patently clear that the company boxes do not represent strike forces. Yes the 3rd Company has the note about Joran VI - but then the bottom of the page has a separate box for the actual Joran VI Strike Force with its components listed by origin.

Oh and a final note about Techmarine markings: All Space Marine tanks come with admech marked crewman BUT, that's because they come with the accessory sprue which was originally made for the Land Raider kit, and fluffwise every Land Raider DOES have a Techmarine custodian. Its possible the 'all tank crews have admech badges' was an Eavy Metal continuation of a screwup by the beancounters whilst Chronus was down to the sculptor knowing better. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5988902.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/546811/5988902.page GMT