http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/14.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net
Yes I know (and looking forward to it) there is a new codex coming up real soon so this is more of a general approach, later on stuff can be fine tuned as I go along.


HQ
Librarian Null Zone, Gate of Infinity. 100

TROOPS
10 Tac marines, flamer, lascannon. 180
-Rhino. 35
10 Tac marines, plasma gun, plasma cannon. 185

ELITE
5 Assault terminators, TH&SS. 200
Dread, TL lascannon, ML. 145
-Drop pod. 35
Ironclad. 135
-Drop pod. 35

FAST ATTACK
Storm talon, skyhammer missiles. 125
Storm talon, skyhammer missiles. 125

HEAVY SUPPORT
Thunderfire cannon. 100
Thunderfire cannon. 100


The list got a lot of the popular stuff in it and I tried to hammer as much as I could into it at 1500 points. Plan is more or less to turtle down somewhere nice with good fields of fire and play shoot the heck out of them.

I had a game last night with this army where I eventually ran out of scoring units, so all my OP choices didn't do me much good there.

Now I will ask you gents what I can do about the big challenge of keeping a strong list while also keeping enough scoring units?


UPDATE based on Zions likely rumours pt II

I have converted the list to the new codex, just for laughs.

HQ
Librarian. 65

TROOPS
10 Tac marines, vet. sgt. flamer, lascannon. 195
-Rhino. 35
10 Tac marines, vet.sgt. plasma gun, plasma cannon. 190

ELITE
5 Assault terminators, TH&SS. 220
Dread, TL lascannon, ML. 135
-Drop pod. 35
Ironclad. 135
-Drop pod. 35

FAST ATTACK
Storm talon, skyhammer missiles. 125
Storm talon, skyhammer missiles. 125

HEAVY SUPPORT
Thunderfire cannon. 100
Thunderfire cannon. 100

Total: 1495.
That 5 point saved right there


I get all happy looking at cost of devastators and predators, and I'm considering bringing four or five 5 man tac marine units toting four or five heavy weapons. In last game Night Fight ruined my glorious shooting phase on turn 1 - devastator centurions loaded with LC and omniscope will change that in a future similar situation.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/5994991.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/5994991.page GMT AT guns not be up close and personal]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/5995000.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/5995000.page GMT
With my issues about lack of scoring, it is worth giving a little consideration to exchanging this for more tacs. Im gonna loose some long range fire power and the silhouette of the dread, but I will gain a heavy weapon with 10 wounds and up to two scoring units.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/5995102.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/5995102.page GMT
AV 14 will wreck your day. AP 3 will make you sad. cough leman russ cough

I'd drop a dread and the Terminators for an Aegis and another tactical squad, maybe a Devastator squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You have 4 troops choices when you could and should be getting 6-8. Drop pods don't exactly fit the gun line idea. You've kind of got a mixed bag of stuff that don't fit your proposed strategy.

AV 14 will wreck your day. AP 3 will make you sad. cough leman russ cough

I'd drop a dread and the Terminators for an Aegis and another tactical squad, maybe a Devastator squad.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/5995170.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/5995170.page GMT
I like the thought you guys put into this, keep it coming.

And thanks for the feedback.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/5995196.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/5995196.page GMT AT 1500 two/four troop isn't bad, it's what I generally use unless I'm playing BA with an allied tactical squad (why? For null zone obviously...)
However, I personally start to find the troop getting a bit sparse towards turn four. I fancy their chances more if they are all mounted up. Combat squadding my assault marines is now rather mandatory.
I think, on the whole, another tac squad in place of the ironclad would be a wiser and more flexible investment.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/5995284.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/5995284.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/5996097.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/5996097.page GMT ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/5999203.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/5999203.page GMT
All any opponent has to do is kill 20 marines...they take a while, but a couple hits from the Russ, one heldrake flyover, or a lucky round of eldar shooting and your scoring units are toast]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/5999295.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/5999295.page GMT
I'd change the dreads at the moment neither really does the job you want. The Ironclad is a punch in the face dread that needs a DP, but he also needs a Heavy Flamer and a buddy.

Likewise if you want a fire support dread Rifleman is by far the best option. Swap 2 shots with 1 twin linked for 4 twin linked shots and save yourself 20 points. Likewise he needs a buddy. Dreads in general aren't great in this edition though.

Assault Terminators need a Landraider walking across the board with them is a bad idea (deep striking is a worse idea as they have literally no guns).

It looks like you're trying to build a gun line with some random Assault elements that won't work. I'd drop the Hammernators and the Ironclad, get a Firestorm and then just more dakka. Also wait for the codex next week. But if you're building a gunline build a gunline! Marines are natural generalists don't compound that issue by taking a mixed bag list.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/5999320.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/5999320.page GMT
In this game I swear I will remember to use psychic powers, and make use of searchlight against an opponent when we have nightfight turn 1.

To meet the many advises for more scoring units - and that being what I missed the most in my last game - I'll squeeze in one more tac sqd. Likely in a drop pod, and will try to get one more rhino into the list.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

HQ
Librarian Null Zone, Gate of Infinity. 100

TROOPS
10 Tac marines, combi-melta, meltagun, missile launcher. 185
-Drop pod. 35
10 Tac marines, flamer, lascannon. 180
-Rhino. 35
10 Tac marines, plasma gun, plasma cannon. 185
-Rhino. 35
6 Scouts, sniper rifles, stealth cloaks, missile launcher. 116

ELITE
Ironclad.135
-Drop pod. 35

FAST ATTACK
Storm talon, skyhammer missiles. 125
Storm talon, skyhammer missiles. 125

HEAVY SUPPORT
Thunderfire cannon. 100
Thunderfire cannon. 100

Total: 1491 pts.


This is a revised list, which mostly takes the good advices and build on them. More marines. More mobility. I threw out a lot of stuff to get the marines including the terminators, my plan is to throw some marines at the wolves in case of a crazy assault army assaulting me. There is a squad of drop pod marines who will go on a suicide mission, though I recon as long as my opponent spend time on them he isn't putting focus on my other marines. In the end it evens out. The good thing is I will get to land the first blow with my double meltas, and opponent will have to react with one less piece on the board.

With 125 points left, and none of the models I desired (proxy can only go so far) I opted for... well a lot of things... but ended with choosing 6 scouts, to keep in the theme of more scoring units and getting them to objectives.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now you can yell at me
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/6009640.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/6009640.page GMT
CHAPTER TACTICS
Iron Hands Successor Chapter
A quick glance in the book showed just UM and IH to be a boon for this list, and I really don't prefer UM much.

HQ
Chaptermaster w. powerfist, shield eternal relic, artificer armour. 225
RAAWR. He drop right right in front of the enemy putting metal to the pedal from turn 1 getting into the face of the defending army from the get go. Armed with PF to smack hard in melee. Han can facetanke a lot with 2+/3++, W4 and eternal warrior. Costs about the same as Lysander but isn't forced to use IF chapter tactics and gets orbital strike along with im.

TROOPS
Tactical squad, 8 marines, combi-melta, melta gun. 132
-Drop pod. 35
Chaptermaster joins this group, the hardy marines are assigned to duty of blasting off melta weapons, providing selfless sacrifice for their master and be scoring if they live that long.

Tactical squad, 5 marines, combi-melta, meltagun. 90
-Drop pod. 35
Supplies drop pod #3 allowing for the others to enter game turn 1. Notice their cheap cost compared to lascannon duty tac squad below.

Tactical squad, 5 marines, lascannon. 90
-Rhino. 35
Speed to grap objective lategame.

Tactical squad, 5 marines, plasma cannon. 85
-Rhino. 35
Speed to grap objective lategame too.

Scout squad, 5 scouts, sniper rifles, scout cloaks. 70
Holds an objective.

ELITE
Ironclad dreadnought 135
-Drop pod. 35
Arriving with chaptermaster Lord Doom.

FAST
Stormtalon gunship, TL lascannon. 140
It's useful against air and ground targets. I'm split between skyhammer missiles and TL las. From where I stand las looks better as it has a greater chance of one shotting an AV12 flyer.

HEAVY
Centurion devastators, 3 cents, grav-cannon, grav amp, omniscope. 260
With lots of stuff in my opponents face I plan to walk these big fellas forward, gunning down prime targets.

Thunderfire cannon. 100
Boom-boom-boom-boom.

TOTAL: 1500 pts.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/6029274.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/6029274.page GMT CM he's a beast with it.

Ironclad still needs a buddy.

Still too many points on troops.

Storm talon like the dread needs a buddy. The Sky hammers are the best option. You dont want to spend more points than you have to on a 2HP vehicle, plus against AV12 you have 1 shot glancing on 3+ for 0.59 HPs on average against AV12 where as the Sky hammer does 0.67HPs and is 15 points cheaper!

Centurions have a real issue with no invun making them very vulnerable if your opponent has plenty of AP2 shooting. Medusa's and Vindicators will cause you a massive headache with only a 30" threat range.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/6029304.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/6029304.page GMT
Ironclad could use a twin. My plan was for him to tag teams with Lord Doom for a double turn 1 DS, and by that would get a buddy of a sort. You think this is still too little after this explanation of my cunning plan.

Storm talon with las is worse off? But how about it's chance of a "critical hit" with las - if it penetrates armour there is a 50/50 chance of removing the heldrake as a threat.

You are likely right about cents. I'm just in lack of vision and have to try it for myself (yes I am that thickheaded).

About those troops: I'd be glad to drop some, but how about running dry on scoring units then. And what would you suggest spending points on? Which I can afford that is.

I could throw out a unit of marines, a rhino and bring skyhammers. That would afford one more walker or flyer. How sounds that?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/6029401.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/6029401.page GMT EW it helps you in rounds after the first if you're fighting big nasties. It also helps your squad out in the first round by doing the damage before the squad gets murdered by whatever you're fighting. Switching up to at least a TH would mitigate the first part of this as you reduce big nasties to I1 with the TH so from round 2 onwards your CM is going at the same time as that Wraithknight or black mace Prince...

The issue with the CM being the Ironclads buddy is that the enemy uses different weapons to shoot each. Thus you are making his target priority easy. Hence why you need 2 Dreads.

Your chances of 1 shotting a Helldrake with it are first off only 33% if you hit, penetrate and he fails his invun (lascannon is only AP2). Meaning your over all chance is 2 in 27 slightly better than once every 14 times you fire it. Granted that is roughly double the chance you have with the skyhammer but both are so small as to be largely irrelevant and the Skyhammer is 15 points cheaper. If they were the same cost personally I'd still take the Skyhammer but with the skyhammer being half the points it is a no brain choice. Skyhammer always.

Devastator Centurions are awesome. But for me they need an IC sat at the front with a 3++ invun tanking AP2 shots.

Yes your suggestion would improve the list. Not sure if it will enable to stretch to another drop podding dread. Both dreads would also need a Heavy Flamer.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/6030457.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/6030457.page GMT PF fielding Lord Doom Junior

Regarding the heldrake it only has 1 weapon, so a weapon destroyed means the flamer is destroyed. It can still make vector strikes, but the baleflamer would be gone.

Ironclads come standard issue with meltagun and heavy flamer

For the game tonight I thought about shifting around some points to allow for the 2nd dread. It bites into my objective grabbing resources tho, and I become split between deploying two dreads in turn one, or Lord Doom and one dread. It would take FIVE(!) drop pods to place all three heavy duty models in turn 1. As you said, Flingit, with only one dread targeting becomes easy, and one dread each turn is easy pickings.

So, I'm gonna try the list as it is, and then maybe scrap the whole dreadnought part to it ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/6034219.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/6034219.page GMT
That actually makes the comparison with the Skyhammer worse as it makes it a 3:2 ratio rather than a 2:1. You still only have a 1 in 9 chance of doing it (2 in 27 with Skyhammer), with manoeuvrability you'll maybe get to shoot at that Helldrake 3 times with your paper plane assuming he doesn't kill in the course of a game. Meaning chances are this will happen once in every 3 games you have against Helldrakes. But given how easy your plane is to kill most likely we're looking at this happening once every 9 games where you go 2nd against Helldrakes and your opponent doesn't have an ADL... It really isn't worth it.

Also check the gear an Ironclad comes with as standard. I think you'll find they don't come with a HF you have to pay 10 points for it. Just get the HW totting tac marines a DP instead of a Rhino. In all but 1 objective game you'll have an objective in your Deployment zone anyway. And let's face it no way are both squads surviving til late game anyway.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/6034373.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/6034373.page GMT
Anyways I played a game last night against IG tank company. And lo and behold you were right on all accounts, Flingit.

Talon did nought, Ironclad got smoked by AT LR.

You didn't tell me not to deviate orbital bombardments onto Lord Dooms retinue so that I did

Now Lord Doom made first blood (onto his own, that little trigger happy basterd), ripped trhough armour and tanked everything thrown at him. So my ideas after this game is to bring in Sir Despair - a captain with 2+/3++. And possible a jumppack. He will either be tanking for the centurions or for a drop pod tac squad.

I fear for my cenurions a little though if I leave the dread out. As you said it forces my opponent to target centurions with AT weapons.

Next up is armament. With (live) centurions I only really have issues with armour, and spam lists. In most of my games cracking vehicles and taking first blood have been the primary goal during the early game. Easily available meltaguns fit in fine with this plan.


++++++++++++++++++++++


My next go at a strong and varied list:


Iron Hands chapter tactics.

HQ
Master Doom. Chaptermaster w. thunderhammer, shield eternal relic, artificer armour. 230
Captain Despair. Captain w. powerfist, combi-melta, artificer armour. 145

TROOPS
Tactical squad, 6 marines, combi-melta, melta gun. 104
-Drop pod. 35

Tactical squad, 5 marines, combi-melta, meltagun. 90
-Drop pod. 35

Tactical squad, 5 marines, lascannon. 90
-Rhino. 35

Tactical squad, 5 marines, plasma cannon. 85
-Rhino. 35

Scout squad, 5 scouts, 4 sniper rifles, ML, scout cloaks. 80

FAST
Stormtalon gunship, skyhammer missile. 125

HEAVY
Centurion devastators, 3 cents, grav-cannon, grav amp, omniscope. 260

Thunderfire cannon. 100
-Drop pod, deathwind launcher. 50

TOTAL: 1499


Master Doom goes with tac sqd #1 to DP in turn 1. Captain Despair goes with either tac sqd #2 or with centurions, depending on the opponent. I do get all giggly trying to upgrade Captain Despair into Vulcan for more melta power.

Maybe, just maybe I should go with Sallies instead of IH. With two sergeants and two IC toting combi-meltas that's a whole lot of mastercrafted meltas right there.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/6038106.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/6038106.page GMT CM with the Centurions. He can tank for them and is there should they get counter assaulted he will nail everything to the wall.

I really worry about drop podding in 10 marines. They are easy to deal with and you don't have anything else in the face to take the heat off them. They are suicide units. So I wouldn't put any characters with them.

If you drop them and therefore the DP for the TFC you can afford a second unit of Centurions. Put Despair in front of them and you have 2 tough hammer units that obliterate anything they shoot and are also brutal in assault...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/6040400.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/6040400.page GMT
This is not something I will try soon, as I will get get a verbal overhaul with accusations of cheese, down at the club

For now I will stick to only being a meanie, and drop down two tacticals with Master Doom and Captain Despair. What I really like about the list is it's flexibilty. I can put them five different places, providing pressure in different ways. The reason for this not to be cheesy is due to multiple (chaos) IC having been used against me.

I could easily upgrade Captain Despair's fist to the Burning Blade by selling off Master Dooms combi-melta (needs to be sold off anyways, since it is illegal), going down to 5 marines in #1 tac sqd and taking away the scouts ML. Or sell off the omniscope. For any spare points I might buy him some meltabombs.

There is one thing that bothers me a little. I'd like to get more warm bodies into the list. It's just my gut feeling, and perhaps my ICs can help mitigate the low number of (drop pod) marines when it comes to actual gaming.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/6044201.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/548928/6044201.page GMT