<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Scaly Skin vs. Lore of Metal"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/93.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Scaly Skin vs. Lore of Metal
First let's start with Lore of Metal -
*Fluff = "The Lore of Metal is based around the manipulation and transformation of metal..." (Pg. 491)
Rule = "... Magic missiles and direct damage spells from this Lore do not have a strength - their To Wound score is always equal to the unmodified armour save of the target." (Pg. 494)

This seems pretty clear but I did emphasize unmodified because it is important.

On to scaly skin... first special rules definition - "When a creature has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is often represented by a special rule ... Alternatively, a special rule can improve a model's survivability, by granting it a better armor save or the ability to regrow damaged flesh." (Pg. 66)

It may be important to note this part as well : (Pg. 66)
1. "... In addition, a model's attacks can gain special rules because of the equipment it is using." (As in equipment can also grant special rules, doesn't have to be inherent in the model.. meaning that it could also be inherent in the model completely separate from equipment)
2. "... Remember, that if there is a conflict between the rules presented here and in a Warhammer Armies book, the latter takes precedence."

So special rules are exceptions, can be granted by model and/or equipment, and reaffirmation that codex triumphs rulebook.

So on to scaly skin... "The hide of some creatures ... forms a kind of natural armour that grants the model an armour save." (Pg. 75)

So it is not an armour save, but it grants the model an armour save. I think it is important to note the distinction with the word 'grants'... but to make sure let's read the definition of armour save in the BRB.

Armour Saves (Pg. 43)
1. "... the more armour a model is wearing, the higher his armour save becomes."
2. "The value of a model's armour save is determined by the equipment it carries, as detailed in its entry in the relevant Warhammer Armies book"
3. "Light armour provides a 6+ armour save, meaning that a 6 must be rolled to save a wound..."

Clearly armour saves are determined by equipment, yet we've already discovered that scaly skin is an exception due to it being a 'special rule' and it grants an armour save. We've even discovered that equipment provides an armour save instead of granting it.

Now to put this in perspective, let's look at another rule that also modifies armour saves, Cavalry (Pg. 83)
1. "... A cavalry model's armour save is treated as being one point better than normal, so a model with heavy armour and shield, who would normally have a 4+ armour save if were infantry, has a 3+ armour save for being calvary. Furthermore, if the mount has barding (armour of its own), the rider's armour save is increased by two points..."

So we now have a great basis for the rule. Scaly skin is a special rule type of save which grants the model an armour save (not provides, subtle but different), it is not equipment but merely a part of the model, and clearly the Lore of Metal affects unmodified saves meaning that the original armour on the model is the only factor taken into account when using these spells, so mounted models are still judged based on original armour.

With all of that in mind I'm really not understanding why people say Lore of Metal affects scaly skin.



]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6004183.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6004183.page GMT Scaly Skin vs. Lore of Metal
Metal Lore works on the end result, no matter how it is calculated. If Fuzzy Bunny Slippers of Doom grant the wearer 1 armor point higher than normal, Metal works on that. You'll find quite a few magic items give bonus to armor yet have no "metal" in them. That's just fluff.

I don't believe unmodified means that in this context. Unmodified means from outside sources. A mounted model is self-contained. If a rider has armor save of 4+ and then 3+ for mounted, he is 3+. He is always 3+ unless some outside force affects him, so that is his unmodified. You don't start splitting a single model up and taking away it's equipment and rules (such as a horse). There is no such thing as a cavalry rider, for instance, he is not a game model or unit. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6004220.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6004220.page GMT Re:Scaly Skin vs. Lore of Metal Plague of Rust and/or what Duke stated above. A Bastilidon's 2+ would still get wounded on a 2+ via Searing Doom, for example.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6004479.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6004479.page GMT Scaly Skin vs. Lore of Metal
DukeRustfield wrote:
Armor save is the combination of Scaly Skin and armor items (and spells and magic items and whatever else).

Metal Lore works on the end result, no matter how it is calculated. If Fuzzy Bunny Slippers of Doom grant the wearer 1 armor point higher than normal, Metal works on that. You'll find quite a few magic items give bonus to armor yet have no "metal" in them. That's just fluff.

I don't believe unmodified means that in this context. Unmodified means from outside sources. A mounted model is self-contained. If a rider has armor save of 4+ and then 3+ for mounted, he is 3+. He is always 3+ unless some outside force affects him, so that is his unmodified. You don't start splitting a single model up and taking away it's equipment and rules (such as a horse). There is no such thing as a cavalry rider, for instance, he is not a game model or unit.


How are you completely ignoring the armour save part of the rule book where it specifically lists armour save as 'equipment' carried?

I painstakingly went through the rule to show scaly skin as a special rule that modifies the armour save of the model, but is not equipment. Armour save is the referenced save for lore of metal. If it said all saves but ward then it may make sense, but you are assuming that by armour save that is inclusive of any modifiers.

The idea that a mounted model does not modify armour is again, not supported by any rule other than ignoring the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
HRZ wrote:
I think the "unmodified" part of the Lore of Metal creed may refer to Plague of Rust and/or what Duke stated above. A Bastilidon's 2+ would still get wounded on a 2+ via Searing Doom, for example.



Please show me the reference section or page number]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6004651.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6004651.page GMT Scaly Skin vs. Lore of Metal
DukeRustfield wrote:
Armor save is the combination of Scaly Skin and armor items (and spells and magic items and whatever else).
Metal Lore works on the end result, no matter how it is calculated.


This

Emperors Knights wrote:
Scaly skin is a special rule type of save which grants the model an armour save (not provides, subtle but different), it is not equipment but merely a part of the model, and clearly the Lore of Metal affects unmodified saves meaning that the original armour on the model is the only factor taken into account when using these spells, so mounted models are still judged based on original armour.


Well if we are getting technical here then the original armour save of any unit would nothing, unless it has a scaly skin save, due to the fact that nothing else has an armour save before it is modified by their equipment.

Emperors Knights wrote:
How are you completely ignoring the armour save part of the rule book where it specifically lists armour save as 'equipment' carried?
I painstakingly went through the rule to show scaly skin as a special rule that modifies the armour save of the model, but is not equipment.


Good for you. You voiced your interpretation of the rule and Duke gave his. If you are going to be unnecessarily combative when you've asked other people for their input on the subject then people just wont bother replying.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6005250.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6005250.page GMT Scaly Skin vs. Lore of Metal
alex87 wrote:


Well if we are getting technical here then the original armour save of any unit would nothing, unless it has a scaly skin save, due to the fact that nothing else has an armour save before it is modified by their equipment.

Emperors Knights wrote:
How are you completely ignoring the armour save part of the rule book where it specifically lists armour save as 'equipment' carried?
I painstakingly went through the rule to show scaly skin as a special rule that modifies the armour save of the model, but is not equipment.


Good for you. You voiced your interpretation of the rule and Duke gave his. If you are going to be unnecessarily combative when you've asked other people for their input on the subject then people just wont bother replying.


Wait, what??

FIrst an armour save is based off of the equipment. We aren't talking about unmodified as if the model wasn't part of the game, we are talking unmodified by spells, mounts, or any other situation that modifies the save beyond the equipment they are carrying.

I'm not sure I see that as combative to ask how they are ignoring the very definition of armour save. If armour save said something along the lines of 'everything' that grants a non-ward save or was more encompassing than the strict mention of equipment I would understand, instead I don't so that's why I've questioned how that definition didn't matter.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6005706.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6005706.page GMT Scaly Skin vs. Lore of Metal
Emperors Knights wrote:
alex87 wrote:


Well if we are getting technical here then the original armour save of any unit would nothing, unless it has a scaly skin save, due to the fact that nothing else has an armour save before it is modified by their equipment.

Emperors Knights wrote:
How are you completely ignoring the armour save part of the rule book where it specifically lists armour save as 'equipment' carried?
I painstakingly went through the rule to show scaly skin as a special rule that modifies the armour save of the model, but is not equipment.


Good for you. You voiced your interpretation of the rule and Duke gave his. If you are going to be unnecessarily combative when you've asked other people for their input on the subject then people just wont bother replying.


Wait, what??

FIrst an armour save is based off of the equipment. We aren't talking about unmodified as if the model wasn't part of the game, we are talking unmodified by spells, mounts, or any other situation that modifies the save beyond the equipment they are carrying.

I'm not sure I see that as combative to ask how they are ignoring the very definition of armour save. If armour save said something along the lines of 'everything' that grants a non-ward save or was more encompassing than the strict mention of equipment I would understand, instead I don't so that's why I've questioned how that definition didn't matter.



Scaly Skin grants an armour save, LoMetal works on armour.

Therefore, LoMetal works on scaly skin.

If a WoC DP uses the scaled skin to get a 1+ armour, then he's wounded on his 1+ armour.

Because, unmodified means 'as it is written on the profile'.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6005745.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6005745.page GMT Scaly Skin vs. Lore of Metal Armour save is made from equipment. Apart from that you could only modify it wth exceptions. Wait, aren't special rules exceptions? So hey can also be part of arkour save.
As stated above, all these things are on the profile, so they all count towards "unmodified".

I seem to recall a spell that grants scaly skin - this would not be subject to LoMetal.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6006073.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6006073.page GMT Scaly Skin vs. Lore of Metal
A mount is not equipment mentioned under armour saves definition, the items listed as equipment should be the only thing that matters. Everything beyond is an approximation which enhances the base save of the model. Most models start with a 7+. Some have tougher, non-equipment based saves. Rather than split out a third save GW made a special rule that could modify base armory saves. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6006232.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6006232.page GMT Re:Scaly Skin vs. Lore of Metal armor save. Discussion of what actually constitutes a model's ending armor save is irrelevant, imho. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6006296.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6006296.page GMT Scaly Skin vs. Lore of Metal
He has a 1+ save, because of scaly skin. Therefore, Searing doom wounds him on a 2+, rather than a 3+(discounting scaly skin.)

That is ho the rule works. Anything that grants armour is factored in.

Razor banner doesn't affect it because razor banner is specific to combat.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6006589.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6006589.page GMT Scaly Skin vs. Lore of Metal
Emperors Knights wrote:
I discount a mount much like I say that because a magic banner grants a special modifier, the attack itself remains non-magical (flaming, razor, etc).

A mount is not equipment mentioned under armour saves definition, the items listed as equipment should be the only thing that matters. Everything beyond is an approximation which enhances the base save of the model. Most models start with a 7+. Some have tougher, non-equipment based saves. Rather than split out a third save GW made a special rule that could modify base armory saves.


Lore of metal is based on armour save.
What is the save of the model when you start your game?
That is the armour save that lore of metal will be wounding on.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6006682.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6006682.page GMT Scaly Skin vs. Lore of Metal Str of attacks could never reduce stuff like scaly skin and mounts, because they modify armor saves. A cannon vs. a bloodletter (scaly skin 6) on a bloodcrusher (+2) would still have a 4+ save...

FAQ:

Reference Section – Armour Saves.
Add “Shield 6+
Mounted + Shield 5+”

Mounted is included in armor saves per FAQ.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6006717.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6006717.page GMT Scaly Skin vs. Lore of Metal
Emperors Knights wrote:
So on to scaly skin... "The hide of some creatures ... forms a kind of natural armour that grants the model an armour save." (Pg. 75)


So this is what you have written and bolded in your first post.

Emperors Knights wrote:
So on to scaly skin... "The hide of some creatures ... forms a kind of natural armour that grants the model an armour save." (Pg. 75)


This is all that needs to bolded.

Emperors Knights wrote:

So it is not an armour save, but it grants the model an armour save.


If it 'grants' the model an armour save when you're building the list, then for all intents and purposes it is an armour save and is affected by the Lore of Metal's lore attribute.

 Peasant wrote:

Lore of metal is based on armour save.
What is the save of the model when you start your game?
That is the armour save that lore of metal will be wounding on.


I'd say this is probably the simplest way of summing it up. The fact that Scaly Skin is not 'equipment' doesn't matter. This is a fluff term used in a descriptive manner by the rulebook, rather than a means of differentiating how various armour saves are awarded.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6006905.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6006905.page GMT Scaly Skin vs. Lore of Metal http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6007373.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6007373.page GMT Scaly Skin vs. Lore of Metal GW themselves like to add fluff inside of the text explaining their own rules for things. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6007615.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6007615.page GMT Scaly Skin vs. Lore of Metal
 Brotherjanus wrote:
This is a case of confusing fluff for rules. It is fairly common as GW themselves like to add fluff inside of the text explaining their own rules for things.


It does cause issues at times.
But for me..
1. I love this game but I don't take it seriously enough to be bothered by trivial problems. When all else fails and you can't agree roll a d6 and continue on. If the other is upset, buy them a beer or shot of tequila when you're done and move on. Tis just a game
2 .I like the fluff. I can't imagine reading a rulebook that was 500+ pages because it had to say. A shield is a piece of armour. It can be used to save in close combat vs. Hand weapons magic weapons, flails, etc. A shield may also be used against shooting attacks from crossbows, handguns, pistols, magic missles, etc.. it can be combined with light armour for a +1 save against...... and repeat again for light armour etc. etc. I don't want to read through a law book with ridiculous expansion and repetitive phrasing to try and cover every mis step and avoid every niggling possible loop hole...nah...not for me. I'm good with this.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6007974.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6007974.page GMT Scaly Skin vs. Lore of Metal
Emperors Knights wrote:

So we now have a great basis for the rule. Scaly skin is a special rule type of save which grants the model an armour save (not provides, subtle but different), it is not equipment but merely a part of the model, and clearly the Lore of Metal affects unmodified saves meaning that the original armour on the model is the only factor taken into account when using these spells, so mounted models are still judged based on original armour.

With all of that in mind I'm really not understanding why people say Lore of Metal affects scaly skin.


People think that if you need more than 3 pages to construe a rule and understand a basic game mechanic, you're looking for easter eggs. They're right.

The distinction between special rules and equipment is interesting but essentialy your case rests on a supposed difference between the words grant/provide, and that's artificial. Both words mean the same, so there goes the basis to establish what this "original armour" might be. A 3+ AS is only original to a Knight if you assume he's starting the game dismounted...and that's simply taking things too far.

DukeRustfield wrote:
Armor save is the combination of Scaly Skin and armor items (and spells and magic items and whatever else).


Then none of this modifies AS? That's odd when you then say that spells do. Also, there's MCav riders which you can split up.

Emperors Knights wrote:

How are you completely ignoring the armour save part of the rule book where it specifically lists armour save as 'equipment' carried?


On the basis of the Special Rules part of the rule book where it specifically says Scaly Skin improves my armour save (or grants me one, same difference).


I painstakingly went through the rule to show scaly skin as a special rule that modifies the armour save of the model, but is not equipment.


Yeah, I painstakingly counted blades of grass, and everyone ignores my hard work...

At no point did your painstaking work dig up the word modifies I'm afraid. You did show that one grants and one provides, and you claim that the former is not - that's an entirely new level of sophistry. That's one reason why nobody follows your interpretation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Brotherjanus wrote:
This is a case of confusing fluff for rules.


No disrespect but that is disingenious and outright wrong. He used half the rules known to Man to make his case. Fluff is not the issue, using rules is.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6011326.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6011326.page GMT Scaly Skin vs. Lore of Metal
 Mike der Ritter wrote:
DukeRustfield wrote:
Armor save is the combination of Scaly Skin and armor items (and spells and magic items and whatever else).


Then none of this modifies AS? That's odd when you then say that spells do. Also, there's MCav riders which you can split up.

I said what armor save is. Not unmodified, which I stated below it. Spells wouldn't be included, but I believe magic items and purchased equipment the profile owns are, as you cannot remove them. MC riders can't be split up. At no point are they ever off their mount. You can't yell DISMOUNT to Mournfang Cavalry and come up with a new Armor save for them. You can't take your Hero who has magic armor and tell him to take it off--it can be destroyed, in which case his armor save would change. But it is part of his profile as he enters the game. If he was under another unit's +1 armor banner, it would not be part of his profile and thus would not be unmodified, but the model that owns that banner would, because it's on his profile.

If you buy shields for chaos warriors, their AS is 3. They can't drop their shields. Just because they had options before entering the game doesn't mean anything once they enter. (Of course, if they are using 2H weapons, that is a different story, but is also covered in the rules.)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6012575.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6012575.page GMT Scaly Skin vs. Lore of Metal http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6014333.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6014333.page GMT Re:Scaly Skin vs. Lore of Metal ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6015155.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6015155.page GMT Scaly Skin vs. Lore of Metal Lol, this ^]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6016891.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/549424/6016891.page GMT