<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Can you apply acrylic paint *over* enamels or sealants?"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/8.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Can you apply acrylic paint *over* enamels or sealants? DE venom. It will ultimately be dark chrome. (I'm either going to find a grey ink to darken the chrome but keep the relfective properties, or I'll just see how it looks with a light chrome coat and see if enough of the black still shows through). Ill then be applying some form of serpent insignia using some golden acrylics interference paints and I'm concerned as I've been hearing acrylics don't stick we'll to the alclad chrome. I've also heard rubbing the chrome can cause it to come off, and I'm sure the acrylic wouldn't handle rubbing well either so I considered sealing it with alclads clear coat. This leaves me with a few questions.

1. After I've laid out my stencil for the insignia, could I spray down some standard acrylic GW primer to add some tooth? Would it stick and support the acrylic as if it were on plastic, or does it need the plastic to "bond" to?

2. If I chose to seal the model, would the lacquer eat the acrylic insignia? Could I seal the insignia with something acrylic safe, then seal the whole model with the alclad lacquer sealant?

3. Are there any good,clear sealants that would be dual purpose as far as acrylic and enamel are concerned, but not kill the chrome's reflection? (A little dulling is expected, just not too much)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/550699/6026319.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/550699/6026319.page GMT Can you apply acrylic paint *over* enamels or sealants?
There are some things which you need to watch for like inks from micron pens and water colors...but even with those, you can seal with light coats to prevent them from running.

Though it appears your actual question isnt can you, rather howto do it and keep it from rubbing off. The key there is sealing after all the painting is done.

When I use something like Alclads or other paints that have a very smooth surface, I will apply a matching sheen varnish over the whole model to seal it all. After that, I mask or use a brush on areas that need a different sheen (matte, satin or something in between). In is more involved than just hitting the whole figure with Dullcote, but it ends up preserving the shine of the metallic finish (or candies, pearls, silks...) while keeping areas like skin, cloth and dirt from looking like plastic.


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BTW...when I say cured, I do mean cured and not just dry. Paints take a lot longer to cure than most people realize and unless I am in a hurry to get them done, I will normally leave a model alone for a good week before I seal it.

Most acrylics take a few days to cure, and some enamels and oils can take even longer (while some cure faster too).

I'll also normally do pigments after the glossy coat but before the matte coats. No reason in particular, just the way I do it. Painted dirt goes on before hand though.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/550699/6026390.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/550699/6026390.page GMT Can you apply acrylic paint *over* enamels or sealants?
 bobert wrote:


1. After I've laid out my stencil for the insignia, could I spray down some standard acrylic GW primer to add some tooth? Would it stick and support the acrylic as if it were on plastic, or does it need the plastic to "bond" to?

2. If I chose to seal the model, would the lacquer eat the acrylic insignia? Could I seal the insignia with something acrylic safe, then seal the whole model with the alclad lacquer sealant?

3. Are there any good,clear sealants that would be dual purpose as far as acrylic and enamel are concerned, but not kill the chrome's reflection? (A little dulling is expected, just not too much)


What you are going to need to do is use varnish every time you paint something new on so that it doesn't rub away. Your process would be something like

1. Basecoat using your enamel colour.
2. Apply the chrome.
3. Seal your chrome with the varnishes you are told (lacquer based ones)
4. Apply your stencil and colour it with whatever colour you were going to use.
5. Varnish again but this time use a water based varnish.

All of this said, I have no idea how you are going to do dark chrome, I'd suggest maybe using Alclad's Jet exhaust finish, will give you a colour similar to the one you want.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/550699/6026401.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/550699/6026401.page GMT Can you apply acrylic paint *over* enamels or sealants? .

Sean, for clarification, the main thing I'm concerned about now is sealing is the acrylic insignia which will be applied over the chrome. From what I understand now (after doing some more reading) the alclad doesn't actually need any seal. Could I then seal the insignia by itself, with its own acrylic friendly sealant, while the stencil is still down, or would it still rub off since the seal is only on top of it and not holding it to the rest of the model. I'm not quite clear as to the chemistry involved in that part of the process. Is it sealing via creating a film "over" the paint, or is it mixing "with" the paint and sealin it to what's directly underneath it?

Winter, as for dark chrome, I was thinking I would see how dark it was after a very light coat. I saw a tutorial for alclad and candy effects on youtube called "gunpla tutorial for candy effects" on youtube. I plan to just stop during the chroming process after a thin coat if its enough to get a high shine at that point and retain the darkness of the black enamel underneath. If that doesn't work ill go for a "grey candy" with some (golden acrylics: transparent shade grey) which will be slightly different, but still serve my purposes.

Sorry for all the edits. It's hard to proof read dakka on a phone) ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/550699/6026546.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/550699/6026546.page GMT Re:Can you apply acrylic paint *over* enamels or sealants?
What happens if you don't wait this period of time is the varnish or finishing spray chemically reacts with the paint, often times causing it to become darker. Often times you are better off not using a sealer until the paint has chemically cured and dried.

Now I know model/miniature paints use a different formula, but you are still looking at the "few months" side of things. If yo are using Citadel paints, which are water based, you are really just using a slightly different and thinner mixture of the paints I use when I do a large canvas. If you are using an Oil based paint you can have even longer drying times, unless you force it to cure.

ALL that being said. When I have done stencils (both on canvas and on miniatures) in the past I wait until I have a nice surface seal, normally a day or two. This is the stage where most people think it is "Dry" although experienced painters can still feel the tacky residue of the paint. This is when I apply the stencil, I just make sure to have a touch up at hand and ready just in case.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/550699/6026814.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/550699/6026814.page GMT Can you apply acrylic paint *over* enamels or sealants?
Keep in mind, most sealants are acrylic friendly, provided the acrylic has been given sufficient time to cure properly. Testors Dullcote, one of the most popular choices is a lacquer and is used over acrylic paints all the time.

When I try to explain how water based paints stick to stuff, I sometimes use the analogy of taping up a box. If you put tape just on one side, the tape sticks OK. If you wrap the tapes over the edges it sticks better. If you run the tape all the way around the box and stick it back to itself...the only way to get it off is to use a knife.

Acrylics are a bit like that tape. Although you have some interplay with the long chain polymers between surfaces, it is insignificant unless you are painting wet on wet (and there is almost no interplay with the base for metal, HIPS or polyurethane resins). So, each layer of paint is like sticking a small piece of paint to a box. After you have all your small layers, you apply a sealant over everything in order to keep it from rubbing off, much like those small pieces of tape might come loose from the box if you move it around a bunch.

Now, is you use a laquer sealant over a lacquer or enamel paint, enamels or oils on enamels or oils...than you are actually creating a stonger connection between those paints. The solvent i those paints will slightly dissolve the paint below and when it cures the two layers of paintfilm are fused together. Enamel and oil solvents will also fuse the paint directly to HIPS plastics. Lacquer solvents are very aggressive and can dissolve the HIPS plastic (which is one of the reasons ALCAD requires a primer coat...other than gloss black being what they were formulated for). Although those solvents create that interplay between those paints, they dont have the same effect on acrylics or polyurethanes (polyurethanes for the resin figures and acrylics for the layers of paint).

If you strip acrylic paint using a solvent like mineral spirits, you will find the acrylic turns a bit rubbery, but you dont actually dissolve it. If you strip enamels or oils with mineral spirits, it dissolves and almost goes back to being a paint like liquid (withsome chunks). The same thing happens to a less degree with painting over the paints. Your acrylic will be a bit fragile till everything dries again, but after that...it will be as strong as before (and sealed down if you are using a sealant like Dullcote). With enamels, oils, lacquers...they can be smudged when sealing, but again, provided you are careful and dont apply too much over them, then it will all be good once it cures again, and those the new paint will bond to the old.

Clear as fog, right?


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 thegrav wrote:
Just to clarify one thing quick. I am a painter, as in I paint on Canvas all the time(aside form my Warhammer habit....). Acrylics take 6 - 8 months to fully dry and cure.

What happens if you don't wait this period of time is the varnish or finishing spray chemically reacts with the paint, often times causing it to become darker. Often times you are better off not using a sealer until the paint has chemically cured and dried.

Now I know model/miniature paints use a different formula, but you are still looking at the "few months" side of things. If yo are using Citadel paints, which are water based, you are really just using a slightly different and thinner mixture of the paints I use when I do a large canvas. If you are using an Oil based paint you can have even longer drying times, unless you force it to cure.

ALL that being said. When I have done stencils (both on canvas and on miniatures) in the past I wait until I have a nice surface seal, normally a day or two. This is the stage where most people think it is "Dry" although experienced painters can still feel the tacky residue of the paint. This is when I apply the stencil, I just make sure to have a touch up at hand and ready just in case.



Acrylics on canvas and acrylics on models/miniatures are not the same (well, the paints are the same, but what the paints do and how they are used is different). Even using the same paints (say golden fluid acrylics) the paint on the miniatures will cure in fractions of the amount of ti e needed to cure on canvas. The biggest reason for this is that cure time is tied to film thickness in an exponential fashion. If your paint film is .01 mm thick, it might take a day to cure. If it is .02 mm thick it might take 4 days to cure. If it is .03 mm thick it might take a week. Canvas painters often paint in thicknesses that can be felt, many many times thicker than what will be used on a miniature. Most paint manufacturers can provide the technical information needed to get a handle on cure times (GW probably wont, by I have gotten it from Vallejo and Reaper, and I know Golden and Liquitex also provides it).

Sealing miniatures before the paint cures fully can lead to fogging of the clear cote. This is especailly true if you use a lacquer or enamel sealer over a water based paint. Moisture and things like drying retarder are still in the acrylic film and need to migrate out. Laquer and enamels do not allow them to migrate, so those substances can lift the sealant and cause it to "fog" (similiar to what happens if decals are not set properly) or it can cause the paint to flake off. When you seal a canvas before it is cured, even if it is with a non permeable sealer...ther isnt a problem. The back side of the canvas is still permeable and the paints can outgas in that direction.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/550699/6026846.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/550699/6026846.page GMT Can you apply acrylic paint *over* enamels or sealants? I think I've got my method in order now.
Ill go with a full seal using an acrylic safe sealant after laying down the insignia. One final question; Can anyone recommend a good sealant that won't eat my acrylic detail work and preferably adds nor takes away any gloss. I don't want to lose too much of the alclad's sheen]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/550699/6027084.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/550699/6027084.page GMT Can you apply acrylic paint *over* enamels or sealants?
I normally give my models 24 hours before varnishing. I've had slight problems sometimes spraying polyurethane on to Army Painter Quickshade -- it caused a craquelure effect. Other than that I've painted and varnished any number of figures without trouble.

Sometimes I have force dried units in the oven to get them ready for a show. You have to be very careful if you do this!
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