<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium"]]>

<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/31.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium
Marines Contrite: May our acts light the future and redeem the past.

After the events on Monarchia, the Word Bearers Legion had been left humbled and shamed; their Primarch foremost amongst them. But where Lorgar and the vast majority of his Legion had finally accepted the Emperor’s truth, there was one chapter amongst their ranks who remained loyal to their fanatical doctrine. For the brothers of the sacred tome this was viewed as a test of devotion and piety. They felt that the legion had grown lax of late, and that there was need for atonement.

Chaplain Elendin proclaimed that the Ultramarines were clearly in favour with their god emperor, and that through accompanying the sons of Guilleman they might be able to better understand the divine will of the emperor and their purpose within his great scheme. Thus the sacred tome chapter of word bearers left their parent legion and beloved primarch and travelled with the expeditionary fleets of the Ultramarines.

The Ultramarines found a new respect in these Word Bearers, and were impressed with their desire to learn and emulate aspects of the XIII legion. However, within the confines of their own ships they continued to pray to the emperor and stayed true to their ideals. This was reflected in their recruitment of new neophytes at an alarming rate from recovered planets using exclusively the gene seed of Lorgar and so ensuring the purity of their genetic heritage. This went on for over 40 years, and the Ancient tome chapter swelled in size, becoming diverse. The Ultramarines who first looked upon these word bearers with distrust learned to respect and create ties of genuine affection with their brothers despite their vast cultural differences. This culminated in their Chaplin even being invited to counsel with Guilleman himself.

Thus when the great warmaster ordered the ultramarines to join with the Word Bearers to put down a growing WAAAGH in the Eastern Fringe, Elendin and his chapter rejoiced at the chance to show both their parent and foster legions the righteous fury of the purest disciples of the holy emperor. From their orbiting ships Elendin and his men saw with horror what had become of their brothers during the separation. Tears of rage were shed and litanies of hatred were spoken as Elendin turned away from his once beloved primarch and moved his fleet to help the sorely outnumbered Ultramarines.

Through hit and run boarding actions the ancient tome managed to cause heavy casualties early on, sowing confusion within the ranks of the word bearer’s much larger fleet, but were soon forced to seek refuge on Calth as their heavily outnumbered armada began to fall apart. Thus when First Chaplain Erebus cast the ruinstorm the ancient tome fought their brothers with a burning hatred and righteous fervour that saw the ultramarines gain the upper hand in many battles. When the fires of battle had finally died out the Chaplain was gravely wounded and there were but 370 ancient tome battle brothers left alive. Seeking to protect their spiritual leader the ancient tome left Calth to lick their wounds and played no further part in the horus heresy.

After these events the ancient tome regrouped in the Ultramar system and awaited their fate. Elendin (now interred within the sarcophagi of a dreadnought) eventually met with Roboute Guilleman himself who recognised that the ancient tome were no traitors and had played a pivotal role upon Calth. He offered the remaining ancient tome to be assimilated into a new chapter for their loyalty and devotion with Elendin as their chapter master and provided him with gene seed from his own legion to remake the ancient tome. Elendin did so gladly, however, in secret he instead used the collected genetic material from the dead of calth, and in doing so created a new chapter dedicated to atoning for the sins of the Word Bearers as true loyalist word bearers in spirit. Elendin renamed the chapter the marines contrite and had his brothers change their armour to blue (to represent their connection with the ultramarines) and white (to show that they were pure as the armour they wore). ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060207.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060207.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060236.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060236.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium lol]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060252.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060252.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium
For starters, a Chimeric Chapter (that is, a Chapter that splices the geneseed of 2 or more other Chapters together) almost never ends well.

Two... being part of a Traitor Legion would mean (assuming they weren't all exterminated) that their rebuilding process would be *very* closely monitored. It would probably not be feasible to use recovered Word Bearer geneseed in creating the new Marines.

Three.... the Word Bearers' geneseed is probably corrupt, and was corrupt before even Calth. So gathering their geneseed from that battle, and using it create new Space Marines, is probably going to lead to lots of problems, of the Chaotic variety. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060313.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060313.page GMT Re:Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium
The idea in mind was that they were given ultramarine geneseed to build the chapter anew but they used wordbearer geneseed in secret.

"being part of a Traitor Legion would mean (assuming they weren't all exterminated) that their rebuilding process would be *very* closely monitored. It would probably not be feasible to use recovered Word Bearer geneseed in creating the new Marines. "

For the purposes of checking their geneseed they could use the ultramarine geneseed and offer it as their own. Also at that time the loyalists were pretty busy with reclaiming and routing the heretics so less than 400 marines would be hard to keep tabs on.

"Three.... the Word Bearers' geneseed is probably corrupt, and was corrupt before even Calth. So gathering their geneseed from that battle, and using it create new Space Marines, is probably going to lead to lots of problems, of the Chaotic variety."

Now that I'm not disputing lol and at the moment it's obviously just batting some ideas around. Thanks for your comments

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060359.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060359.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium WB geneseed instead of UM geneseed. A Space Marine Chapter is required to tithe a portion of their geneseed to the Adeptus Mechanicus for purity testing, storage, and all that good stuff. Sure, they could use that initial load of UM geneseed for the purity tests the first few decades, maybe even a few centuries... but it ain't gonna last 10,000 years.

These purity tests are going to quickly reveal that you aren't using UM geneseed.... and might, in fact, be on file as WB gene-seed (it is unclear how many records of the Traitor Legions has been kept, nor is it known if they have any of their original gene-seed left).

When that cat is out of the bag, it'll be a race to see who purges you first, the SOB or the UM.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060394.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060394.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060404.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060404.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium

welshhoppo wrote:
Agreed, the general consensus is that Traitor Legions turned good does not happen.

While there are no direct links, the 'rumors' of the Blood Ravens being from the Thousand Sons gene-seed are currently only protected by magical Plot Armor forged by the now defunct Adeptus THQ-icus.

While the Adeptus Mechanicus do have traitor gene-seed on file, they are kept in statis tanks and are never used because they're traitors. There are literally hundreds of thousands of marines who have chapters that give a percent of their gene-seed in tithes, there's no reason for the High Lords of Terra to found a new chapter using traitor seed.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060424.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060424.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium
You could make this a Renegade Chapter. They were some Radical Inquisitor's secret pet-project or another, he had acquired some WB geneseed, somehow, from somewhere (I'll let you fill in the details here) and created this Chapter.

Things went along fine for awhile, with a stockpile of UM geneseed being used in place of the Chapter's own for the tithe. But then Radical Inquisitor bites it... age, combat injury, whatever. Bereft of his influence, the stocks of the UM geneseed (which the Chapter does not know about, being unaware of the duplicity) are eventually depleted. When the next tithe-request comes in, the Chapter sends their own, not knowing its origins. Now come the accusations and the calls for a purgation team and all that... and now the Chapter is on the run from the Imperium.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060429.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060429.page GMT Re:Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060457.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060457.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium

Psienesis wrote:

Three.... the Word Bearers' geneseed is probably corrupt, and was corrupt before even Calth. So gathering their geneseed from that battle, and using it create new Space Marines, is probably going to lead to lots of problems, of the Chaotic variety.

That can't be entirely true. The Word Bearers wouldn't have had to purge their ranks of loyalists if Lorgor could rely on all of them to turn just on basis of their gene seed alone.

Really, the best way to go about it would be to make it like a Word Bearers version of the Blood Ravens (hypothetically assuming the Blood Ravens are descended from the loyalist Thousand Sons), I think. In essence, Loyalist Word Bearers that the Imperium decided to keep but hid away the fact that they were Word Bearers. To achieve this, all you'd really need to do is revise their background a little so that either Roboute or the Inquisition KNEW they were using Word Bearer gene seed but allowed it anyways, and then classified it to such a degree that most people, including the descendants of the marines themselves, would never find out.

This would also mean that, in the 40th Millenium, the Marines Contrite would likely be unaware that they're descended from Word Bearers, and instead believe but are unsure that they're descended from Ultramarines. Imperial Scholars would look back and find all sorts of hints that they're descended from the Ultramarines due to how closely these loyalist word bearers worked with the Ultramarines back then, but there would always be holes in history that would make Scholars and the Chapter unable to definitively be SURE they're descended from Ultramarines.

...because they aren't.

But, like the (hypothetical, if they are Thousand Sons) Blood Ravens, all evidence that they were from the Word Bearers were thoroughly destroyed or classified by the Inquisition at the highest levels (from what I hear, 6th Edition Space Marines codex implies the Inquisition knows who the Blood Ravens are descended from).

Result: A bunch of really religious marines that think they're just really religious Ultramarines descendants, but in fact are descended from the Word Bearers.

Alternatively, you could have them KNOW they're descended from the Word Bearers. They'd still keep this fact secret, though, sort of like how the Red Scorpions might be Emperor Children descendants, but refuse to tell anyone who their primarch is (I'm not sure if Red Scorpions know or not, though).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alfndrate wrote:
welshhoppo wrote:
Agreed, the general consensus is that Traitor Legions turned good does not happen.

While the Adeptus Mechanicus do have traitor gene-seed on file, they are kept in statis tanks and are never used because they're traitors. There are literally hundreds of thousands of marines who have chapters that give a percent of their gene-seed in tithes, there's no reason for the High Lords of Terra to found a new chapter using traitor seed.

And yet we have the loyalist Sons of Antaeus that are speculated to be descended from the Death Guard in-universe (IE, actual Imperial Scholars wonder if they're from the Death Guard) and then there's the Minotaurs chapter where their Chapter Master is basically Khorne as a space marine, right down to sitting in his brazen throne (Brass is the sacred color and material of Khorne) counting how much blood his chapter spilt.

Really, GW and Forge World has made it VERY clear that the POSSIBILITY of loyalist chapters either made from traitor gene seed stocks or descended from loyalists that stayed loyal to the Emperor while their legions turned exists, although they refrain from confirming it to actually be the case. The fact that they bothered teasing with all these hints means they're perfectly fine with players making up their own reasons why a loyalist Space Marine chapter could have traitor gene seed, I'd think.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060474.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060474.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium

Alfndrate wrote:

welshhoppo wrote:
Agreed, the general consensus is that Traitor Legions turned good does not happen.

We don't actually know they don't use it. There are several 'grey area' foundings that imply situations were desperate enough that traitor gene seed could have been used.

There is the cursed founding (for which there is no explenation given as to why all the chapters were cursed) as an example. Perfectly plausible that someone wanted to 'stabilize' traitor gene seed and it all went wrong.

Most of those areas are left 'grey' so that you can make a chapter based on whatever you want.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060513.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060513.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium

Maniac_nmt wrote:

There is the cursed founding (for which there is no explenation given as to why all the chapters were cursed) as an example. Perfectly plausible that someone wanted to 'stabilize' traitor gene seed and it all went wrong.

Again, I really need to emphasize that it's speculated IN-UNIVERSE that at least one of those cursed chapters came from traitor gene seed. The fact that people in-universe speculated it at all shows that the idea of a loyalist chapter that comes from traitor gene-seed is not unthinkable..

If Games-Workshop and Forge-World are allowed to tease us with the POSSIBILITY of loyalists from traitor legions, whether they were made from gene-seed stocks (Sons of Antaeus, Red Scorpions, Minotaurs) or whether they're descended from those that stayed loyal during the Heresy (Blood Ravens), I don't see why a wh40k fan shouldn't be allowed to come up with his own chapters that possibly are descended from traitor legions.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060526.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060526.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium

TiamatRoar wrote:

Maniac_nmt wrote:

There is the cursed founding (for which there is no explenation given as to why all the chapters were cursed) as an example. Perfectly plausible that someone wanted to 'stabilize' traitor gene seed and it all went wrong.

Exactly, and again, according to the fluff, the administration doesn't have a clue what the left hand or right hand is doing most of the time. It's made perfectly clear that stuff is lost all the time without any need for massive cover up. It's noted that requests for aid from a planet or sector have been lost for over 1000 years on several occasions.

The vastness of the bueracracy is its own undoing in this. It is litterally tailor made for the player to have his chapter be whatever (chaos masquerading as loyal, loyal masquerading as chaos, renegade, one of the missing legions, combined group of legions, whatever).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060537.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060537.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060542.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060542.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium 40k period, with chapters such as BT having similar beliefs about the Emperor. Also an incredibly fanatical and staunchly pious chapter would surely incur less questions.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060603.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060603.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium

Psienesis wrote:
Right... but the Cursed Founding's results would probably keep the AdMech from trying again. They aren't real big on repeating the mistakes of the past.

In the case of the (possibly, hypothetically) Blood Ravens as well as these Marines Contrite, they actually precede the Cursed Founding.

Really, these Marines Contrite are basically a Word Bearers version of the (possible) Blood Ravens. IE, members of a traitor legion that stayed loyal, so somehow the higher ups of the Imperium decided to let them keep going but covered up the fact that they were descended from the traitor legions.

Like I said, an easy fix would be to just have Roboute or the Inquisition know they're Word Bearers and cover it up (one thing that s consistent among all these hypothetical traitor gene seed chapters is that SOMEONE who's really high up in the Imperium is obviously covering the fact up. The Inquisition covering up the Blood Ravens and the High Lords covering up the Minotaurs, for example). The rest of the fluff could remain the same.

After that, the original poster can decide whether or not this chapter knows they're Word Bearers by the 40th Millenium. However, if they do know they're Word Bearers, they keep that a secret just like the Red Scorpions are (possibly) doing.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060638.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060638.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium

TiamatRoar wrote:
And yet we have the loyalist Sons of Antaeus that are speculated to be descended from the Death Guard in-universe (IE, actual Imperial Scholars wonder if they're from the Death Guard) and then there's the Minotaurs chapter where their Chapter Master is basically Khorne as a space marine, right down to sitting in his brazen throne (Brass is the sacred color and material of Khorne) counting how much blood his chapter spilt.

The Cursed Founding is probably the only time at which someone can point to the AdMech and go, "look they spliced in traitor gene-seed." and well, we all know how well that turned out. You have the Fire Hawks who aided the Astral Claws during the Badab War, were killed to a few men and became the Legion of the Damned, the Black Dragons who have mutations and while are loyal atm, no one wants to seem to play ball with them. The Lamenters are on a 100 year crusade because of the Badab War, and the Flame Falcons and Blood Gorgons are traitor. You're left with the Minotaurs who are featured in several FW books, and are thus given the same type of plot armor as the Blood Ravens. Also, did you ever think that they might have been pulling the Minotaurs fluff from the Greek myth about the actual minotaur, the brazen bull, and the brass man? All of these things add up to Minotaurs being Minotaurs, and not being Khorne, because we all know that Khorne demands skull thrones, and not brass thrones. Though I would give you the brass connection would easily be Khorne is brass wasn't already intertwined with the Minotaur myth. And you're also left with the Sons of Antaeus, who is based on the Antaeus myth about a strong and resilient man.

The problem with space marine foundings is that they are momentous events in which more than 1 chapter is created, so to think that this chapter was created in secret or with secret origins is preposterous...

BUT it's your 40k, I'm just giving the explanations as to why traitor gene-seed doesn't work.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060812.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060812.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060833.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060833.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium

Alfndrate wrote:

The problem with space marine foundings is that they are momentous events in which more than 1 chapter is created, so to think that this chapter was created in secret or with secret origins is preposterous...

Like I said, these Marines Contrite are basically Word Bearers version of the Blood Ravens, whom as of Codex: Space Marines 6th Edition are still implied as having their origins mysteriously covered up by the Inquisition. If the Blood Ravens are (possibly) good enough to exist as a (possible) off-shoot of the Thousand Sons, then so are these Marines Contrite of the Word Bearers, whether you think it's plot armour or not. At the most, the original poster is no more preposterous than Games Workshop itself (possibly) is.

As an aside, the Red Scorpions are (possibly) NOT from the cursed founding, yet their primarch and origins are suspiciously (in-universe!) unknown, too. It wouldn't conflict with their fluff at all if they turned out to be an Emperor's Children version of what the Blood Ravens (also not Cursed Founding) possibly are.

If the Blood Ravens and Red Scorpions can (possibly) get away with it, why not these Marines Contrite?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060848.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060848.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium
Still, pure conjecture. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060943.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6060943.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium
Really, I think both Games Workshop and their various subsidiaries have made it quite clear that at least the possibility of traitor legion Loyalist successors exist, both from the Cursed Founding AND from the Horus Heresy loyalists. They haven't confirmed it at all obviously but the fact that they bother to tease about it shows the possibility (why tease about it if such a concept was preposterous?)

Hell, the fact that it's official from Core Studio fluff that the Imperium keeps traitor gene seed in storage could show that Games Workshop WANTS people to entertain the idea. They would have explicitly had the Imperium burn all its traitor gene seed stocks if they didn't want players to think about loyalist chapters from traitor legions. Instead, they explicitly stated the Imperium has such stocks, even if the Imperium "doesn't use them" (That the Imperium "doesn't use them" could obviously be just the Imperium's official stance, given all these chapters with unknown primarchs running around)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6061012.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6061012.page GMT Re:Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium OP could explain his chapter as being isolated from the Legion for a time, possibly during the Great Crusade. Either through being lost in the warp or on a planet with no possibility of contacting anyone for help. Skip ahead, Heresy happens, marines rediscovered and found to be loyal after much testing (similar to the survivors of the Abyssal Crusade.) As for the gene-seed question somehow the Black Dragons get away with keeping their mutation level a secret by using other sources.

I've been playing with an idea of having marines based on loyalist Luna Wolves and this thread helped inspire me for a plausible in universe explanation as I'd been unable to find much. I came up with the idea that only the Chapter's leaders know who their descended from (similar to the DA's Inner Circle.)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6061581.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6061581.page GMT Re:Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium
Not sure if you know about this little bit of fluff either

Codex Assassins:

There are even rumours which implicate the Officio Assassinorum in the downfall of certain Space Marine Chapters - the mysterious loss of the Fire Hawks' fleet in the warp, the unexplained destruction of the Crimson Fists' Chapter fortress on Rynn's World, the disastrous ambush of the Angels of Retribution at Alantor X and several other less well-known incidents have all been laid at the assassins' door.

Alfndrate wrote:
The problem with space marine foundings is that they are momentous events in which more than 1 chapter is created, so to think that this chapter was created in secret or with secret origins is preposterous...

BUT it's your 40k, I'm just giving the explanations as to why traitor gene-seed doesn't work.

I'm with Alf

The 21st is the only one with a hint of a possibility, the 13th Dark Founding could be another, but there is no information on that at all, just that all the records went missing. At least with the 21st you have the account of the Inquisitor revealing the possible interference by Fabius.

Also, on the Word Bearers Gene Seed from their IA article

The gene-seed of the Word Bearers was originally thought to be pure, but events subsequent to the Horus Heresy revealed the weaknesses inherent in their genetic make-up. The Space Marines of the Word Bearers have a marked tendency towards dogged, unquestioning belief and stubbornness that verges on insanity.

The Word Bearers aren't the kind of Legion to leave any loyalists either, they are very thorough in what they do, which was one of their main problems in the first place, that they were busy converting worlds rather than fighting wars.

The issue I have with new Chapters made from Traitor stock is would and could the Imperium risk it and how could they justify using the Traitor Geneseed. I am not saying at all that you can't do it, just think of a very good reason why it took place.

Remember

A Heretic may see the truth and seek redemption. He may be forgiven his past and will be absolved in death. A Traitor can never be forgiven. A Traitor will never find peace in this world or the next. There is nothing as wretched or as hated in all the world as a Traitor. - Cardinal Khrysdam, Instructum Absolutio

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6061707.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6061707.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6061789.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6061789.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium

TiamatRoar wrote:

Alfndrate wrote:

The problem with space marine foundings is that they are momentous events in which more than 1 chapter is created, so to think that this chapter was created in secret or with secret origins is preposterous...

The Blood Ravens are under constant scrutiny of the Ordo Hereticus due to the actions of Chapter Master Kyras turning to Chaos and rising to Daemonhood, so they're not really 'getting away with it'. As to the Red Scorpions, if you look at all of the loyalist chapters under the focus of FW books, they all have 'mysterious origins' because if they put a stamp on it and said, 'hey! these chapters are founded from x, y, and z!' then run the risk of canon conflicts (look the HH for plenty of those).

Pilau Rice wrote:

Spoiler:

The 21st is the only one with a hint of a possibility, the 13th Dark Founding could be another, but there is no information on that at all, just that all the records went missing. At least with the 21st you have the account of the Inquisitor revealing the possible interference by Fabius.

Also, on the Word Bearers Gene Seed from their IA article

The gene-seed of the Word Bearers was originally thought to be pure, but events subsequent to the Horus Heresy revealed the weaknesses inherent in their genetic make-up. The Space Marines of the Word Bearers have a marked tendency towards dogged, unquestioning belief and stubbornness that verges on insanity.

The Word Bearers aren't the kind of Legion to leave any loyalists either, they are very thorough in what they do, which was one of their main problems in the first place, that they were busy converting worlds rather than fighting wars.

The issue I have with new Chapters made from Traitor stock is would and could the Imperium risk it and how could they justify using the Traitor Geneseed. I am not saying at all that you can't do it, just think of a very good reason why it took place.

Remember

A Heretic may see the truth and seek redemption. He may be forgiven his past and will be absolved in death. A Traitor can never be forgiven. A Traitor will never find peace in this world or the next. There is nothing as wretched or as hated in all the world as a Traitor. - Cardinal Khrysdam, Instructum Absolutio

Sorry about the Fire Hawks, I don't know much about them

. And I've been thinking about this for the evening and a good chunk of today. During Isstvan V, Lorgar et. al had mentioned that a second culling had taken place before the Drop Site Massacre and that the traitor legions that were not a part of Isstvan III had already removed the loyalist parts of their legions. As Pilau mentioned, the Word Bearers are meticulous and thorough, they would not have left a chapter's strength remain loyal to the Emperor, especially when you consider that a chapter at that time was probably several times larger than the standard Codex Astartes sized chapter due to the legions being at least 100,000 marines strong.

Also OP, I do have a major bone to pick with this whole thing. I suggest you go read Know No Fear, Mark of Calth, and Betrayer. Those three books will show you why a Word Bearers successor chapter would never be allowed to survive being in the line of sight of a son of Ultramar. The Word Bearers attacked the Ultramarines in such a way that they marked the battle of Calth and that mark is still running because there are still Word Bearers alive. The Ultramarines would have looked upon the Marines Contrite (or w/e you called them during the Heresy) and said, "I hope you enjoy this death, it will not be swift." and then proceeded to slaughter them mercilessly... Even if you allied them with another chapter that was willing to keep their secret a secret, you might want to make it one that doesn't like the Ultramarines, and hope that in 10,000 years that such a secret never comes to light, less the Ultramarines and pieces of the Ordo Hereticus don't bring the hammer down on your chapter Excommunicate Traitoris.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6063152.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6063152.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium

Alfndrate wrote:

welshhoppo wrote:
Agreed, the general consensus is that Traitor Legions turned good does not happen.

In fact the are stories of an Iron Warriors warband raiding a forgeworld for both Iron Warrior Seed and Imperial Fist Seed. They used the Iron Warrior Seed to make more Iron Warriors and the Imperial Fists one to mutate into amusing abominations.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChaoSam wrote:
Okay so I'm planning a new army based on a loyalist word bearers chapter (for any who didn't know the word bearers had chapters prior to the horus heresy) and I've written some fluff for your discerning eyes. I'd love some feedback and also some suggestions about what units to use/ban to make this list seem possible.

I really think the leadership and charisma of a primarch, and specifically Lorgar is just to great to have slinter factions or chapters before the HH. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6063331.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6063331.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium

I really think the leadership and charisma of a primarch, and specifically Lorgar is just to great to have slinter factions or chapters before the HH.

There were Word Bearers that had a chance of being loyalists. I say "a chance" because the Legion culled them before the Heresy broke out. Before Calth, even. Lorgar wouldn't have killed them if he knew his charisma was enough to keep them loyal to him. As an aside, we don't know how many loyalist word bearers Lorgar had to kill. However, the loyalists that were purged at Ishtvan III were stated to be like, 25% of the legions. That's a pretty honkin' huge amount of loyalists from traitor legions, so the charisma of a primarch is obviously not infallible, especially considering that these were loyalists from Horus' and Fulgrim's legions. Even the Warmaster himself and the primarch of the god of pleasure had to cull a whopping fourth of their legions. If the primarch who's patron god is the god of charisma itself had to cull 25% of his legion, then obviously Primarch charisma only goes so far. Admittingly, Lorgar is more charismatic than most, and the word bearers' loyalties are more twistable than most, but there still could theretically be a big enough margin of error with a legion THAT big (...and really, was he more charismatic than Fulgrim, who had to kill 25% of his own legion? The legion that also tends towards crazy psycho loyalty in its own ways? ...probably one of the reasons why the Red Scorpions could be either Emperor Children or Word Bearer descendants).

These Marines Contrite would have to have an explanation for how they were overlooked for that culling ("overlooked" because if the traitor Word Bearers knew they would stay loyalists, they would have fired upon them at Calth immediately, I imagine, if not sooner). Although frankly, no matter how thorough the Word Bearers were, I find it hard to imagine them capable of culling EVERY potential loyalist when you consider that the Word Bearers were the 2nd biggest Legion and were stretched throughout the galaxy. It's more realistic that even a thorough Legion missed a few spots, like what happened with Warsmith Dantioch or those loyalists from traitor legions in The Battle for the Abyss (both of which led to big "lolwut?" reactions when they found out what happened). Or technically the Lunawolf that was stationed on Terra.with the rest of the Outcast Dead who ultimately stayed loyalist (and probably became one of the Grey Knights founders). Though the Marines Contrite would still need a big reason for how they were overlooked for the first culling yet present for the Battle of Calth unless their loyalties were just that unknown somehow.

The first culling did mostly target those of Terran born as far as we know. Any Word Bearer that remained loyal but came from Lorgar's home world might have been able to go under the radar, I guess, if there were unique enough circumstances.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6063930.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6063930.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium
The Legion was recalled in its entirety after Monarchia, so the potential was there to at least establish some form of plan to eradicate the Loyalist elements should they be separated again.

One Space Marine is not enough to rebuild a new chapter from and like I said before, would they risk it? You might be the most loyal Space Marine in the Imperium, but if you are from a traitor Legion you are tarnished with the same brush.

A possibility could be the fleet of Sor Talgron that was hanging above Terra to hid their duplicitous intent. From Scions of the Storm we see that Talgron has some conflict of character when Lorgar reveals his new aims. I believe that Talgron followed Lorgar down the path to damnation, but you could have a loyalist element leave the fleet and make for Terra or elsewhere and hide out until the end of the Heresy or something along those lines. Talgron could not shoot on their vessel for risk of blowing their cover.

Unfortunately though, since BftA, there has been no mention of Sor Talgron and his predicament. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6065242.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6065242.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium
The Grey knights themselves were made up of a mixture marines from loyalist and traitor legions, showing that it's more about the person than the genetics. The gene-seed would just mean that they are more susceptible to physical mutation.

I think that it's very feasible as an army, and sure, the ultramarines may loath the traitor bearers more than anything but they were fast friends before that. Couldn't that mean they might be even more protective of those word bearers who turned against their own legion in order to fight for loyalty alongside their brothers for the good of mankind?

Guilleman was a pretty clever cookie and had a sense of honour, so if these word bearers had helped him like this, I can imagine that he would help protect them and make sure that they could serve the imperium that they obviously hold so dearly.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6649164.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6649164.page GMT Re:Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium --++//BEGIN TRANSMISSION//++---

Name: hounds of loken.
Founding: Founding: after the istvaan III massacre, only a few Luna wolves remained alive, scattered throughout the planet's surface, and even then many of them were wounded, hence their not being discovered.
This band of survivors numbered 2 dozen or so astartes, and they made flight for terra in a world eaters ship abandoned by it's past-owners.
it was not for several centuries that the flaw showed itself, on the battle field of derviss VIII
Gene-seed: Horus. -note: see "flaw" below.
Homeworld: Archerin betaris.
Homeworld details: archerin betaris' surface is a barren wasteland, a mysterious virus having killed all things living well before the imperium arrived. But, many species of fauna and flora have developed in the cavernous tunnels below the surface, and this is where the Luna wolves make their home.
Organization: unlike most chapters, the chaplains of the hounds of loken disperse among the chapter, acting as sergeants, comand squad veterans and even (in the case of the high-chaplain) a captain. An unusual number of terminator armour are found within the armouries of thehounds of loken. By the same leaf, very few bikes are there, leading to the belief of a trade between the hounds of loken and the White scars. Besides this, they primarily stick to the codex astartes (even though I will be using the chaos codex )
Combat doctrine: the hounds of loken display a unique love of close combat, but at the same time, will hold a gun line as rigourously as they will charge the enemy.
Often times, the hounds of loken will utilise the flawed in a mannor similar to death company, for some of the more Sane among the flawed feel endless pain,
And are given an honourable death.
Beliefs: the hounds of loken believe that the only way to honour the original luna wolves, those purged in the istvaan III incident, is to completely eliminate all remnants of the arch-traitors puppets. They primarily attack those who served in the suns of Horus as traitors, willing to invade a whole world to kill a single sons of Horus chaos space marine. They also venerate garvial loken as the epitome of the astartes image.
Colours and heraldry: white with silver or black lining. Black wolf head, often against a crescent moon.
Battlecry: for them! For the emperor!

"From the arch-traitor, from Horace, we were created, and from Horus, the arch-traitor, come our foes. We are the avengers of our fore-fathers, the honourable dead that would not bow to Horace, to them, we owe our lives, for them, we will crush the arch-traitor's pawn, for them, for the emperor!" chapter master solace.

Recruitment: The hounds of loken recruit from the hardened tribes of their world, whom construct huge underground cities of marble, and have three unusual trials.

Notable members of the hounds of loken:
Chapter Master: Solace.
Chief Librarian: +++error+++
Captain of the 1st company: torgaddon. Named for the ancient hero.
Notable engagements:
:current:
The battle of mortalis:
Hive fleet kraken threatens the forsaken knights chapter planet, and thehounds of loken first, second and third companies rush to their aid, lead by solace himself.
Relationship with the forsaken knights:
The forsaken knights share a deep found bond with the hounds of loken, even lending forces on long term scales to each other, the chapter masters of the luna wolves and forsaken knights, solace and the shrouded lord respectively, are close friends.

The mournival: solace keeps a council of: the high chaplain, chief librarian, first captain, and second captain, known as the mournival. They offer battle field and other advice.

The flaw:
The hounds of loken gene seed is flawed.
Some space marines of the chapter slowly devolve into rambling monsters, mutant things of horrendous appearance. Their like ness to chaos spawn could spell the doom of the chapter, and any brother afflicted is immediately placed in stasis, the current total being 142 afflicted, they are hidden at the core of the hounds of loken fortress, and are a closely guarded secret, solace has voweled to save his chapter from this affliction, but unlike the thousand sons, who were afflicted similarly, solace has set a line in the sand between what he will, and won't, do.
The dark on the horizon:
Known only to solace and his mournival, solace bears the first signs of the flaw. It seems he has hence forth held it back by pure force of will, but even that is failing. Unless a cure can be found soon, he will almost certainly fall...
+++ END TRANSMISSION+++ ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6649199.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6649199.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium

Psienesis wrote:
Well...

For starters, a Chimeric Chapter (that is, a Chapter that splices the geneseed of 2 or more other Chapters together) almost never ends well.

Two... being part of a Traitor Legion would mean (assuming they weren't all exterminated) that their rebuilding process would be *very* closely monitored. It would probably not be feasible to use recovered Word Bearer geneseed in creating the new Marines.

Three.... the Word Bearers' geneseed is probably corrupt, and was corrupt before even Calth. So gathering their geneseed from that battle, and using it create new Space Marines, is probably going to lead to lots of problems, of the Chaotic variety.

Agree with points one and tow, but point three is wrong.

I think it is in "Aurellian" that Ingethel the ascended tells Lorgar that the Word Bearer's were the Chaos Pantheon's first choice as the Legion to spread the faith, specifically because they were one of the most genetically pure of the Legions. This allowed them a much more stable recruitment rate that helped them boost their numbers throughout the final decades of the great crusade to become the second largest Legion. Notice that all of the small Legions were the most genetically unstable; The Thousand Sons, The Emperor's Children and The Space Wolves were all showing signs of mutation in the Geneseed long before the Heresy. In some cases it probably just slowed recruitment like with the Wolves but in the case of the other two it was almost catastrophic.

Anyway, pedantic moment over. But yes you are right the geneseed is now probably quite corrupt with all the chaos worship and what not.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6649389.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6649389.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium WB were still very pro-imperial, and emerged later.

Assuming whoever found them didn't shoot on sight, they might be tested, found to be emperor worshippers, and permitted to continue, under close observation.

It's certainly not the wildest chapter genesis theory I've ever heard.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6649513.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6649513.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6650676.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6650676.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium
But I'm sure there is SOME kind of reason that would stop them doing so - maybe the WB ship's record was lost, so the Imperial systems won't recognise it.

Plus, If it's Pre-Heresy, It'll be in the old colours, which the first responders might not recognise, and without all the demonic gargoyles and so a "modern" WB ship would have.
And I think they'd have the old Word Bearers Legion symbol, plus a unique chapter symbol.

Combine that with a slightly less zealous (read: less trigger-happy) first response, and the WB making it clear they weren't a threat, maybe someone might have heard them out.
Not saying it's likely, but it's plausible.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6650759.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6650759.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6651444.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6651444.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium

welshhoppo wrote:
Agreed, the general consensus is that Traitor Legions turned good does not happen.

There likely are loyalist Iron Warriors (Silver Skulls), general loyalists of the traitor legions (Grey Knights), possible (unlikely) loyalist Night Lords (Space Sharks exhibit a lot of similar traits and doctrine), etc. Just that they weren't formed from traitors turned loyalist, but loyalists who fled the traitor legions and were rolled into existing Legions (Ultramarines sucked up a lot of those guys). But to my knowledge, there are NO Loyalist Word Bearers, as their own planet's worship was Chaos. And once you go Chaos, you don't come back.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6652004.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6652004.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium

Wyzilla wrote:
And once you go Chaos, you don't come back.

False; Prosperine obsession with psionics and knowledge could be considered Tzeentchian influence, and yet at least one Thousand Son (Revuel Arvida) remained loyal, and possibly the same goes for the rest of the Fourth Fellowship.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6652293.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6652293.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium

Wyzilla wrote:

welshhoppo wrote:
Agreed, the general consensus is that Traitor Legions turned good does not happen.

There were Terran Born Word Bearers that had to be purged by the traitors. I dunno if there were any Colchis ones, though. It should be noted though that for a hundred years, Colchis worshiped the Emperor, not Chaos.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6653257.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6653257.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium

TiamatRoar wrote:

Wyzilla wrote:
welshhoppo wrote:
Agreed, the general consensus is that Traitor Legions turned good does not happen.

There likely are loyalist Iron Warriors (Silver Skulls), general loyalists of the traitor legions (Grey Knights), possible (unlikely) loyalist Night Lords (Space Sharks exhibit a lot of similar traits and doctrine), etc. Just that they weren't formed from traitors turned loyalist, but loyalists who fled the traitor legions and were rolled into existing Legions (Ultramarines sucked up a lot of those guys). But to my knowledge, there are NO Loyalist Word Bearers, as their own planet's worship was Chaos. And once you go Chaos, you don't come back.

The Word Bearers purged all that wouldn't do as the Primarch/Kor Phaeron/Erebus commanded, before the HH.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6653293.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6653293.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium

thetallestgiraffe wrote:
I think that people are putting too much emphasis on the gene-seed side of things. There was a lot more to the traitor legions than just being genetically susceptible to corruption, but it was also about the people and how they were by themselves. Like I don't think that the word bearers were so zealous before the heresy because of their gene-seed, I think it was more Lorgar's personal Influence on them. It's why they still had to purge their ranks of all the older terrans and whatnot; although they had the same gene-seed they had different influences.

This. Predestined to Fall might be cool in a Greek Tragedy way but their native upbringing clearly effected the Primarchs deeply. Do you think Jaghatai Khan would have been a Mongolian warlord if he'd grown up on Terra?

On the idea, a founding right after the Heresy seems simply impossible. Two ideas I can think of:

1) They broke away having been some place else when Istvaan happened (cut off by a warp storm?) and are pulling an Alpha Legion or rather Soul Drinkers I guess. Its clearly stated elements of the Traitor Legions were untouched by Chaos and had to be purged. Make them overwhelmingly Terran and having to do a mini purge of their own of Lorgar loyalists when they hear about the betrayal.

2) Isn't it amplied that during one of the 'dodgy' Foundings the gene-seed of Traitor Legions were used? However that does miss the point of your fluff I guess as I doubt they'd be told they are of Word Bearer stock.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6653307.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6653307.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium
The 21st Founding is easy: the Adeptus Terra diddled with geneseed, including some traitor geneseed, to see if they could "improve" or "fix" said geneseed. As a result, some chapters got made with traitor geneseed. These chapters most likely have no fething idea who they are really descended from. The 21st Founding exists in the fluff for this very reason.

The other option is harder to work with, since you need to come up with a good reason your chapter stayed loyal during the Heresy (and why they weren't slaughtered outright by the proper loyalists) but, whatever the excuse, your chapter *must* be under strict Inquisitorial watch. There is no, I mean no, I emphatically repeat NO way that loyalist traitors would be permitted to exist without someone in authority knowing their origins and watching them very, very closely for any signs of traitorism. And since the Inquisition is the group that handles that sort of thing, we all know who would be living on your chapter's couch and eating out of their refrigerator. Whatever excuse you use to get your loyalists to survive the Heresy is fine, as long as the end result is that the Inquisition is forever monitoring them closely (and no, your chapter isn't cleverly putting one over on them, either... the Inquisition expects treason, so if it exists, they will find it. Heck, they'll find it even if it *doesn't* exist).

The last option, the one that a lot of people want to use (and never should, as it is the least plausible out of a series of implausible choices), is "we stayed loyal during the Heresy when everyone else turned traitor and now we are loyal and NO ONE KNOWS OUR SECRET"... and really, if you want that back story so bad, just play Dark Angels.

And I say all this as a guy who has a loyalist traitor Marine army, so I know whereof I speak.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6654504.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6654504.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium

thenoobbomb wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
Wyzilla wrote:
welshhoppo wrote:
Agreed, the general consensus is that Traitor Legions turned good does not happen.

There likely are loyalist Iron Warriors (Silver Skulls), general loyalists of the traitor legions (Grey Knights), possible (unlikely) loyalist Night Lords (Space Sharks exhibit a lot of similar traits and doctrine), etc. Just that they weren't formed from traitors turned loyalist, but loyalists who fled the traitor legions and were rolled into existing Legions (Ultramarines sucked up a lot of those guys). But to my knowledge, there are NO Loyalist Word Bearers, as their own planet's worship was Chaos. And once you go Chaos, you don't come back.

There were Terran Born Word Bearers that had to be purged by the traitors. I dunno if there were any Colchis ones, though. It should be noted though that for a hundred years, Colchis worshiped the Emperor, not Chaos.

The Word Bearers purged all that wouldn't do as the Primarch/Kor Phaeron/Erebus commanded, before the HH.

No, that was a different bunch of guys that were killed. And that wasn't a purge so much as an all out civil war that happened before the Word Bearers name even existed.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6654656.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6654656.page GMT Loyalist word bearers successors in the 41st millenium

TiamatRoar wrote:

Wyzilla wrote:
welshhoppo wrote:
Agreed, the general consensus is that Traitor Legions turned good does not happen.

There likely are loyalist Iron Warriors (Silver Skulls), general loyalists of the traitor legions (Grey Knights), possible (unlikely) loyalist Night Lords (Space Sharks exhibit a lot of similar traits and doctrine), etc. Just that they weren't formed from traitors turned loyalist, but loyalists who fled the traitor legions and were rolled into existing Legions (Ultramarines sucked up a lot of those guys). But to my knowledge, there are NO Loyalist Word Bearers, as their own planet's worship was Chaos. And once you go Chaos, you don't come back.

Those weren't really Word Bearers, like all of the other Terran born Astartes from the launch of the Great Crusade. I don't think it's even possible for any actual Word Bearer to turn loyalist, given that the religion on their planet was Chaos.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6654722.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/552915/6654722.page GMT