<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Chapter Tactics with regards to the "Counts As" Rule"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/16.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Chapter Tactics with regards to the "Counts As" Rule I'm new here and I hate to kick off my first post with a "rant" of sorts, but I feel this is a point you may very well agree with me on.

I only recently picked up the new space marines codex and was initially very impressed with the chapter tactics ruleset, as it helps give your chapter a more unique identity among the vanilla space marines, as well as some rather useful in game abilities you can utilise at your own discretion.

That feeling of approval did not last, however, when I read this line:

"Certain units and special characters have specific Chapter Tactics and can only be taken in detachments of the specified chapter"

I found myself almost incredulous at this rule, but on looking it up it indeed was correct and consistent with the armies that 6th edition space marine players use. This of course strikes a significant blow to homebrew chapter players who like to make custom characters and use the "counts as" rule, i.e this is my chief librarian, he is so awesome that he uses the stats and points cost of Tigurius. Or "this is my chapter master, he is so tough that he has the stats of pedro kantor".

This rule is essentially anathema to anyone who doesn't play Ultramarines; as Ultramarines have Six unique and interesting characters, while most of the other chapters have one or two at best.

Thoughts on this gents?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092178.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092178.page GMT Chapter Tactics with regards to the "Counts As" Rule
So we have my homebrew chapter, Gliesian Dawn (still a WIP). I use a non-descript color scheme, a non standard chapter symbol, and I own the models for Lysander, Tigurius, and Kossaro Khan all painted up in my chapter's colors and iconography. If I use my Lysander model, I have to use Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics, if I use the Khan then I use White Scars chapter tactics.

Now I go out and buy the SM commander kit and paint him up, because is not one of these special characters I can use whatever chapter tactics I want.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092195.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092195.page GMT Chapter Tactics with regards to the "Counts As" Rule

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092213.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092213.page GMT Chapter Tactics with regards to the "Counts As" Rule
 PredaKhaine wrote:
It also means no unholy character combo's like Lysander and Kantor. I feel much happier getting roflstomped by characters from the same army - it doesn't feel so 'this guy has just made the best army possible to faceroll me'.



Except that Kantor and Lysander can run in the same army... they've got the same chapter tactics. You just don't gain the benefit of all of their stuff because they have abilities that only work when they're warlord.

But like you couldn't take Ravenguard infiltrators and white scars scout movements without allying one of the detachments in.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092223.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092223.page GMT Chapter Tactics with regards to the "Counts As" Rule
 PredaKhaine wrote:
It also means no unholy character combo's like Lysander and Kantor. I feel much happier getting roflstomped by characters from the same army - it doesn't feel so 'this guy has just made the best army possible to faceroll me'.




I see your point, however that is probably not the best example as Lysander and Kantor both use Imperial Fists chapter tactics, and as such can be taken together

I also understand your stance Alfndrate, but what if you wanted to use multiple special characters in a large (say 3000 point) game? Do you not dislike the fact that you can never field two of your chapter's hero's together on the field due to their Chapter Tactics?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092234.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092234.page GMT Chapter Tactics with regards to the "Counts As" Rule

Oh well. So no Shrike and Calgar then? (tell me thats not a thing!)

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092241.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092241.page GMT Chapter Tactics with regards to the "Counts As" Rule
Narcissus96 wrote:
 PredaKhaine wrote:
It also means no unholy character combo's like Lysander and Kantor. I feel much happier getting roflstomped by characters from the same army - it doesn't feel so 'this guy has just made the best army possible to faceroll me'.




I see your point, however that is probably not the best example as Lysander and Kantor both use Imperial Fists chapter tactics, and as such can be taken together

I also understand your stance Alfndrate, but what if you wanted to use multiple special characters in a large (say 3000 point) game? Do you not dislike the fact that you can never field two of your chapter's hero's together on the field due to their Chapter Tactics?

You mean if my chapter's heroes are Captain Larnath Dysander (Lysander) and Chief Librarian Giturius (Tigurius), I can run both of them in my chapter, especially at 3000 points. The Space Marine codex can ally with itself. So if my main detachment is run by Tigurius then I take him and at least 2 units of tactical marines and then for my allied detachment I can take Lysander and 1 unit of tactical marines.

I'm not seeing an issue here really.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 PredaKhaine wrote:
Oh well. So no Shrike and Calgar then? (tell me thats not a thing!)

It is... you just have to ally in one of those HQ units and their detachment.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092249.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092249.page GMT Chapter Tactics with regards to the "Counts As" Rule
 PredaKhaine wrote:
Gah - I thought that one had gone...

Oh well. So no Shrike and Calgar then? (tell me thats not a thing!)



Well, you could take a primary detachment of Ultramarines and a Secondary of Raven Guard, however being in a separate detachment Shrike wouldn't benefit from Marneus' special rules and vice versa

A fair point again Drate, but what if perhaps you wanted Say Lysander and Shrike as your two main HQs, but also wanted Chronus as a tank Commander? I suppose my chief gripe here is that while the rule itself is reasonable it seems to persuade players towards Ultramarines instead of other chapters :(]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092252.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092252.page GMT Chapter Tactics with regards to the "Counts As" Rule
Narcissus96 wrote:
Well, you could take a primary detachment of Ultramarines and a Secondary of Raven Guard, however being in a separate detachment Shrike wouldn't benefit from Marneus' special rules and vice versa

Which makes sense because Shrike and Calgar have two totally different opinions on how to make war ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092258.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092258.page GMT Re:Chapter Tactics with regards to the "Counts As" Rule http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092370.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092370.page GMT Re:Chapter Tactics with regards to the "Counts As" Rule
Drakka77 wrote:
I agree with the rant guy cause I don't do ultramarines but iron hands and tanks but now I have no tank commander cause he is ultramarines and even if I ally him in my master of the forge can't repair him or loses benefit of iron hands.

People take Sergeant Chronus? O.o]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092380.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092380.page GMT Re:Chapter Tactics with regards to the "Counts As" Rule bs five tank with it will not die rocks and death drops you a marine.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092388.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092388.page GMT Re:Chapter Tactics with regards to the "Counts As" Rule
Drakka77 wrote:
Yes a bs five tank with it will not die rocks and death drops you a marine.

This now begs the question, "you have tanks that last for 2 turns?" Idk about your play experience, but everytime my opponents turn their attention to a tank they break it open in a turn.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092430.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092430.page GMT Re:Chapter Tactics with regards to the "Counts As" Rule
 Alfndrate wrote:
Drakka77 wrote:
Yes a bs five tank with it will not die rocks and death drops you a marine.

This now begs the question, "you have tanks that last for 2 turns?" Idk about your play experience, but everytime my opponents turn their attention to a tank they break it open in a turn.


Personally my army lists are more tailored towards fluff and cool looking models than competitiveness, I don't know how valid Chronus is but I'm the kind of guy who would happily take him just because he finds the concept of skilled tank commanders cool ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092445.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092445.page GMT Re:Chapter Tactics with regards to the "Counts As" Rule
Narcissus96 wrote:
 Alfndrate wrote:
Drakka77 wrote:
Yes a bs five tank with it will not die rocks and death drops you a marine.

This now begs the question, "you have tanks that last for 2 turns?" Idk about your play experience, but everytime my opponents turn their attention to a tank they break it open in a turn.


Personally my army lists are more tailored towards fluff and cool looking models than competitiveness, I don't know how valid Chronus is but I'm the kind of guy who would happily take him just because he finds the concept of skilled tank commanders cool

I like the idea of Chronus, but I don't have tanks last long enough to warrant the 1 chance I might get to roll IWND to save a hull point, and putting him in a tank just makes the tank a bigger target pointswise. This isn't coming from a competitive standpoint, this is coming from a place that wants to survive to see turn 5, 6, and maybe 7.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092455.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092455.page GMT Re:Chapter Tactics with regards to the "Counts As" Rule IH master of the forge w one servitor gets a 2+ repair roll plus it will not die. Also it isn't the largest threat on the field. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092536.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092536.page GMT Chapter Tactics with regards to the "Counts As" Rule IWND and FNP6+
im using Lysander with Iron Hand Tactics!

Or abusing Vulkan's MC rerolls on some things but then having WS bikes of awesome sauce.

If you want, you can ally in more C:SM but you give up the ability to add guard or tau to your force.

It really isnt that much of a problem.

Yes it sucks that Ultras have 6 characters while IH have none but anyway, deal with it. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092896.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092896.page GMT Re:Chapter Tactics with regards to the "Counts As" Rule IH.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092914.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6092914.page GMT Chapter Tactics with regards to the "Counts As" Rule
 Exergy wrote:
This is to stop people from giving Lysander IWND and FNP6+
im using Lysander with Iron Hand Tactics!

Or abusing Vulkan's MC rerolls on some things but then having WS bikes of awesome sauce.

If you want, you can ally in more C:SM but you give up the ability to add guard or tau to your force.

It really isnt that much of a problem.

Yes it sucks that Ultras have 6 characters while IH have none but anyway, deal with it.


Are you saying I would fight alongside xenos scum? HERESY

And also I agree that iron hands got hit the hardest with no special characters. One interesting thing I noticed is kantor's scoring sternguard rule applies to the whole army, not just his detachment. So you could have an army of 6+ feel no pain sternies that count as scoring if you want]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6093116.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6093116.page GMT Chapter Tactics with regards to the "Counts As" Rule
Narcissus96 wrote:
Are you saying I would fight alongside xenos scum? HERESY

And also I agree that iron hands got hit the hardest with no special characters. One interesting thing I noticed is kantor's scoring sternguard rule applies to the whole army, not just his detachment. So you could have an army of 6+ feel no pain sternies that count as scoring if you want

Kantor makes sternguard with Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists) scoring, so you can't take other chapters with Sternguard and make them scoring.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Drakka77 wrote:
I do but seriously need more characters now that tactic thing is out. Most chapters have at least one, not IH.

Codex: Space Marine got '3' Special Characters in their update from 5th to 6th, they gained Helbrecht, Grimaldus, and Emperor's Champion... 3 that already existed in the BT codex. GW had a perfect chance to give the IH a special character, but they didn't... It sucks, but you can't really complain when no other chapter got new special characters.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6093247.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6093247.page GMT Re:Chapter Tactics with regards to the "Counts As" Rule http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6093342.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6093342.page GMT Re:Chapter Tactics with regards to the "Counts As" Rule
What annoys me is he encourages sternguard when sternguard are one of the few units who don't benefit from the bolter drill special rule]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6093401.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6093401.page GMT Re:Chapter Tactics with regards to the "Counts As" Rule
Narcissus96 wrote:
Damn, just re read Kantor's rules and you're right.

What annoys me is he encourages sternguard when sternguard are one of the few units who don't benefit from the bolter drill special rule

Bolter Drill applies to Sternguard as long as they're using their boltguns as boltguns with their regular profile. If you want rerolls with Sternguard's special ammo, take Ultramarines and use Tactical Combat Doctrine


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Drakka77 wrote:
I can complain cause they all have characters, I'm in hopes of supplements

You don't visit N&R very often do you? There are planned supplements in the works. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6093433.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6093433.page GMT Re:Chapter Tactics with regards to the "Counts As" Rule http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6093443.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6093443.page GMT Re:Chapter Tactics with regards to the "Counts As" Rule
Drakka77 wrote:
N&R? Where is that?


4th Forum from the top, News and Rumors. Look for the thread about the upcoming GW release schedule according to stickmonkey.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6093448.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/554688/6093448.page GMT