<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "The reasons for a new Chapter to be created?"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/31.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net The reasons for a new Chapter to be created?
I always wonder, do they create the whole 1,000 marines, train them and equip them and then send them off or do they merge them with survivors from a depleted chapter, but surely that would just be replenish an already established chapter?

have they ever created chapters to counter a specific threat?

Thanks ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6159475.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6159475.page GMT Re:The reasons for a new Chapter to be created? Strategic Prognostication: Essentially a prophecy, divination, or words of a saint spoke of a particular threat coming from a region of space or system of stars. This was how the 20 chapters of the Astartes Praeses were chosen to reinforce the Eye of Terror and the Cadian Gate.
Counter a specific threat, such as a large region of orks, chaos, or just general instability of a region.
Standing Force: A region of space is simply felt to have been unguarded and in need of additional assistance. This was the case with most of the 23rd Founding, aka. the Sentinel Founding.
Crusade: Self-explanatory.

In general, they probably don't create all 1,000 marines at once, but they are given over to a training cadre of marines, almost always of a chapter that shares the geneseed of the new chapter to act as the chapter's first chapter master and captains.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6159584.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6159584.page GMT The reasons for a new Chapter to be created? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6159859.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6159859.page GMT Re:The reasons for a new Chapter to be created? IIRC, the Sable Swords were created to plug the gap left when the Astral Knights were wiped out destroying the World Engine. So a Chapter being eliminated is one reason.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6163821.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6163821.page GMT The reasons for a new Chapter to be created?
New, or existing, threat that needs countered. Destruction of existing chapter. Fortune telling from the Emperors tarot. Random High Lord thinks its a good idea. Political conflict in an existing chapter and rather than have the members kill each other they just split up. Etc, etc.

Heck, the imperium has lost a lot of chapters history so that no one has any idea why certain chapters were created or even when. They may not even know who their geneseed is from.


So, if you get stuck fleshing out their history then just ignore it. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6165976.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6165976.page GMT The reasons for a new Chapter to be created? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6170928.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6170928.page GMT The reasons for a new Chapter to be created?
clively wrote:
Political conflict in an existing chapter and rather than have the members kill each other they just split up. Etc, etc.


Wasn't that a special one-time occasion? At least, I think it was stated that this was the only time it ever happened, right? I could be wrong (For those who don't know, it was in regards to the Iron Hands and the Moria schism, I believe).

Another special occasion was when the Dark Angels got a successor chapter founded on their request (IE, the chapter master waltzed up to the high lords and specifically asked for another successor chapter, which after much debate, they granted). That too was stated to be the only case of its kind. I forget the name of the chapter though (Angels of Vindication?) You really have to wonder how he managed to pull THAT one off, especially since the apparent purpose of the chapter (to hunt down Cypher) means he might have had to let them know the Dark Angels' secrets. Or maybe they already know but it's a secret kept among the High Lords? Dunno.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6171023.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6171023.page GMT The reasons for a new Chapter to be created?
TiamatRoar wrote:
clively wrote:
Political conflict in an existing chapter and rather than have the members kill each other they just split up. Etc, etc.


Wasn't that a special one-time occasion? At least, I think it was stated that this was the only time it ever happened, right? I could be wrong (For those who don't know, it was in regards to the Iron Hands and the Moria schism, I believe).

Another special occasion was when the Dark Angels got a successor chapter founded on their request (IE, the chapter master waltzed up to the high lords and specifically asked for another successor chapter, which after much debate, they granted). That too was stated to be the only case of its kind. I forget the name of the chapter though (Angels of Vindication?) You really have to wonder how he managed to pull THAT one off, especially since the apparent purpose of the chapter (to hunt down Cypher) means he might have had to let them know the Dark Angels' secrets. Or maybe they already know but it's a secret kept among the High Lords? Dunno.


I think when a Chapter Master walks in and says he wants something you just give it to him is how that one happened! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6171071.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6171071.page GMT The reasons for a new Chapter to be created?
TiamatRoar wrote:


Another special occasion was when the Dark Angels got a successor chapter founded on their request (IE, the chapter master waltzed up to the high lords and specifically asked for another successor chapter, which after much debate, they granted). That too was stated to be the only case of its kind. I forget the name of the chapter though (Angels of Vindication?) .


The Retcon bug has struck on this one, in the 6e Dark Angels codex it just states that "for it is highly unusual for a chapter master to make such a request"

You really have to wonder how he managed to pull THAT one off, especially since the apparent purpose of the chapter (to hunt down Cypher) means he might have had to let them know the Dark Angels' secrets. Or maybe they already know but it's a secret kept among the High Lords? Dunno

It is hinted that it was more blackmail than honesty

Source: 6e Dark Angel Codex P.17 Disciples of caliban (I have the codex right in front of me)

Also I think in the 4e codex it just said it was the first time a chapter master had done so, so either way you have wiggle room

EDIT: So according to the 4e dex it says at the time (m37) it was unheard of, and if you follow the line that the Disciples are essentially being watched at all times for the slightest hint of geneseed corruption it can be a fairly safe bet the Dark Angels pissed off the high lords with this one.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6171109.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6171109.page GMT The reasons for a new Chapter to be created?
 Bobaram wrote:
TiamatRoar wrote:
clively wrote:
Political conflict in an existing chapter and rather than have the members kill each other they just split up. Etc, etc.


Wasn't that a special one-time occasion? At least, I think it was stated that this was the only time it ever happened, right? I could be wrong (For those who don't know, it was in regards to the Iron Hands and the Moria schism, I believe).

Another special occasion was when the Dark Angels got a successor chapter founded on their request (IE, the chapter master waltzed up to the high lords and specifically asked for another successor chapter, which after much debate, they granted). That too was stated to be the only case of its kind. I forget the name of the chapter though (Angels of Vindication?) You really have to wonder how he managed to pull THAT one off, especially since the apparent purpose of the chapter (to hunt down Cypher) means he might have had to let them know the Dark Angels' secrets. Or maybe they already know but it's a secret kept among the High Lords? Dunno.


I think when a Chapter Master walks in and says he wants something you just give it to him is how that one happened!


As funny as that is, I think it was also stated there was a long debate among the high lords before they granted it ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6171111.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6171111.page GMT The reasons for a new Chapter to be created? snafu. so pointless post is pointless]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6171113.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6171113.page GMT The reasons for a new Chapter to be created?
"No, it shall not be this is highly unusual we must know more." Lord A

"Dude, seriously, look at the guy, do you want to tell him no?" Lord B

"Good Point." Lord A]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6171168.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6171168.page GMT The reasons for a new Chapter to be created?
There in lies the answer. A system or sector will lobby to have one created to serve in their area and be originally loyal to them.

So....It's all about power

much like everything else in the world]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6171588.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6171588.page GMT The reasons for a new Chapter to be created?
 Exergy wrote:
The Steel Confessors were created by the ad mech so as to have a chapter loyal to only them and no one else.

There in lies the answer. A system or sector will lobby to have one created to serve in their area and be originally loyal to them.

So....It's all about power

much like everything else in the world


Just to keep things in context, that was almost going overbounds even for an organization as powerful as the ad mech. It was a pretty huge scandal overall and no one was really happy with the result (the rest of the Imperium weren't happy that they had to accept it to prevent civil war and couldn't just ditch the chapter because of the sheer audacity of the Ad Mech to try to pull off a stunt, and the Ad Mech weren't happy that they were discovered and no longer could have their own little pocket chapter )

If anything though, these three examples (one caused by a chapter schism, one requested by a chapter master, and one caused by the Ad Mech trying to secretly make their own pocket chapter) goes to show that there ARE exceptions to the rule, and some of them are waaaay out there. So if someone says "That's BS! Your chapter would never be founded due to such reasons!", then tell them to read up on the Disciples of Caliban (finally found their name), Sons of Medusa, Steel Confessors, or heck, there are other founding chapters with strange beginnings like the Minotaurs. Though of course, none of these chapter foundings were mainstream circumstances.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6171963.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6171963.page GMT The reasons for a new Chapter to be created? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6172108.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6172108.page GMT The reasons for a new Chapter to be created?
I've never seen any fluff on this one, anyone have any books in mind that might delve into this at all? I might want to pick one up.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6173033.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6173033.page GMT The reasons for a new Chapter to be created?
TiamatRoar wrote:
 Exergy wrote:
The Steel Confessors were created by the ad mech so as to have a chapter loyal to only them and no one else.

There in lies the answer. A system or sector will lobby to have one created to serve in their area and be originally loyal to them.

So....It's all about power

much like everything else in the world


Just to keep things in context, that was almost going overbounds even for an organization as powerful as the ad mech. It was a pretty huge scandal overall and no one was really happy with the result (the rest of the Imperium weren't happy that they had to accept it to prevent civil war and couldn't just ditch the chapter because of the sheer audacity of the Ad Mech to try to pull off a stunt, and the Ad Mech weren't happy that they were discovered and no longer could have their own little pocket chapter )

If anything though, these three examples (one caused by a chapter schism, one requested by a chapter master, and one caused by the Ad Mech trying to secretly make their own pocket chapter) goes to show that there ARE exceptions to the rule, and some of them are waaaay out there. So if someone says "That's BS! Your chapter would never be founded due to such reasons!", then tell them to read up on the Disciples of Caliban (finally found their name), Sons of Medusa, Steel Confessors, or heck, there are other founding chapters with strange beginnings like the Minotaurs. Though of course, none of these chapter foundings were mainstream circumstances.


While the steel confessors were an extreme, I think it is still all about power.

If you represented a system or sector with considerable wealth and some political power and felt you needed / wanted a space marine chapter would you petition for an existing one to be enlarged and then split, half going to be based near you with all the history and divided loyalties that might entail or would you want one created from scratch to grow up under your heel. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6173916.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6173916.page GMT The reasons for a new Chapter to be created?
TiamatRoar wrote:
[
(For those who don't know, it was in regards to the Iron Hands and the Moria schism, I believe)..
Moria schism?What do balrogs and durin have to do with the spess muhrines who are the empras fureh?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6174004.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6174004.page GMT The reasons for a new Chapter to be created? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6178845.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6178845.page GMT The reasons for a new Chapter to be created?
VensersRevenge wrote:
Well you see, it turns out that the balrog was actually an Iron Hand, and him hanging out in Middle Earth was an attempt to get his own chapter.
So do Iron hands have wings?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6178933.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6178933.page GMT The reasons for a new Chapter to be created?
I've always been interested in this myself. We hear a lot about the 'foundings' of a chapter but we don't get to actually see it happen or have the story of it happening. Do they pull space marines from the chapter that will be divided to be the rulers of the new chapter? This seems like it could be true, such as the 1st captain of a chapter being used to become the Chapter Master of a successor... maybe...


Basically, yes, if the new Chapter is going to be the Successor to a known Chapter. They take some First Company (usually... some Chapters have different traditions) Veterans, often including the Captain, and they become the Chapter Master, his "inner circle" and the Company Commanders of the new Chapter. They also bring along a few relics and some wargear.

These Veterans are the trainers and mentors of all the new Battle Brothers that are created, and from the most-promising of these new recruits will come the Sergeants and the like. As time goes on, they'll groom these new guys for command, to take over as Company Captains, First Company Vets, and Chapter Master as the "old guard" die off.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6178954.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6178954.page GMT The reasons for a new Chapter to be created?
 Psienesis wrote:
Basically, yes, if the new Chapter is going to be the Successor to a known Chapter. They take some First Company (usually... some Chapters have different traditions) Veterans, often including the Captain, and they become the Chapter Master, his "inner circle" and the Company Commanders of the new Chapter. They also bring along a few relics and some wargear.

These Veterans are the trainers and mentors of all the new Battle Brothers that are created, and from the most-promising of these new recruits will come the Sergeants and the like. As time goes on, they'll groom these new guys for command, to take over as Company Captains, First Company Vets, and Chapter Master as the "old guard" die off.


I've always been sceptical of this approach and never quite taken to the idea of it.

I know the Forge World Imperial Armour books go some way towards this idea (during a similar discussion I was reading some of these books and remember reading contradictory information that hinted at this being the way things are done and also that it isn't but I'm hazy on that as it was a few years ago now) and, having only skim read it so far I think Deathwatch Rites of Battle sorta concurs with this idea but is there a definitive source that out-and-out states that new Chapters are lead by warriors from another? Doeas it say that is the usual thing or just one possibility?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6179239.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6179239.page GMT The reasons for a new Chapter to be created? BRB of... pretty much every edition, and pretty much every explanation of the Second Founding.

Note, though, that this only applies to a Chapter being directly founded by an already-existing Chapter. If the HLoT directs the AdMech to take some geneseed and whip up a whole Chapter of 1000 Space Marines at once, they'll do that, and that Chapter just gets going with a whole fresh set of stuff from the HLoT, whatever relics were sitting around in a box, and its own, self-generated command structure. They might not even know the origins of their gene-seed.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6179588.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6179588.page GMT The reasons for a new Chapter to be created?

The Second Founding is a unique thing in terms of Foundings and Space Marines could come from no other source except the Legions at that time. I suppose that is the point there though, the Second Founding Chapters were not created using an officer cadre from another Chapter but from splitting the Legions; a wholly different thing entirely.

What I don't like about it speciffically is that it goes against the Codex Astartes. Guilliman spilt the Legions to curb their power and yet, with the officer cadre idea, you essentially have a blankslate Chapter that then gets put into the hands of officers from another Chapter who naturally will impart the customs of their original Chapter onto the new one. In essence, if not on paper, you would have a clone of the Chapter the officers came from; at least there is the potential for this.

Since only the High Lords can decree a Founding why would they take X amount of Chapters and put them into the hands of officers from pre-existing Chapters, it makes no sense to me from a poltical perspective where the High Lords and Adeptus Terra are concerned.

Where it does get mentioned, which is not often and then not much, there is a definite tone that some within the Imperium would like to see no Astartes at all as they do not trust them or their independance. Is it really likely that such people would allow green Chapters to be influenced in any way by pre-existing Chapters if there is even the slightest chance they may try to extend the influence of their original parent Chapter onto the new one?

It is a lateral angle of thought I admit that but like I say, Chapters are supposed to be limited, they are supposed to be seperate from others Chapters.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6183207.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6183207.page GMT The reasons for a new Chapter to be created?
Da krimson barun wrote:
VensersRevenge wrote:
Well you see, it turns out that the balrog was actually an Iron Hand, and him hanging out in Middle Earth was an attempt to get his own chapter.
So do Iron hands have wings?


Asking that is Heresy.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6185182.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/558354/6185182.page GMT