<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Power Armour manufacture"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/31.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Power Armour manufacture
I'm sure there's no proper answer to this, but it'll be interesting to discuss.

We all know the manufacturing capabilities of the Imperium of Man: lasguns, Leman Russ, flak armour, ammunition, starships, basically everything that is needed to run the Imperium is manufactured en mass times a billion, hell, even Baneblades are churned out, non-stop fom forgeworlds.

So, if that's what the Imperium can churn out on an average Wednesday, why do the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes end up with power armour that's centuries, or even thousands of years old? I think I read somewhere that the Ultramarines Chapter only has about 60 odd Terminator suites of amour. If so, why?

Why aren't the Space Marines, the sword of the Emperor, furnished with new armour and equipment? Can the Imperium no longer produce power armour?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6216691.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6216691.page GMT Re:Power Armour manufacture
- older equipment is often more reliable, which is something that the Astartes really appreciate due to their modus operandi (see also: Rhinos)
- re-using older equipment is also a matter of honouring the former owner
- the Marine Chapters are supposed to be independent and self-sufficient; they have their own forges, they just don't churn out this stuff very quickly

To bring this into perspective:

"Should a Rhino ever be lost in battle it is an occasion of great mourning for those entrusted with its care, and furious battles have been fought to reclaim the burned-out carcass of a Rhino simply to lay its spirit to rest. After the Battle of Naeuysk Gorge, fourteen Rhinos of the Imperial Fists had to be abandoned when traitor Space Marines from the Night Lords Legion ambushed the advancing column as it crossed the only bridge across the gorge. The attackers destroyed the lead and rear vehicles, trapping the rest in place. Previously placed demolition charges blew out the bridge supports and every Rhino on the bridge plummeted nearly a thousand metres into the gorge. The survivors were harried back to their base and the name of the Night Lords placed forever on the Chapter's Litany of Hatred. The following morning a daring mission involving an airborne assault across the gorge pushed back the Night Lords from the hills on the opposite side and allowed the Imperial Fists to bring up salvage units to start the recovery of their shattered vehicles and the bodies of their comrades. The battle in the hills raged for over thirty hours, with the Imperial Fists' casualties amounting to almost 85% as they fought to give their Techmarines enough time to retrieve the fallen Rhinos. Many of the recovered vehicles were subsequently repaired and sent back into action, their battle spirits eager to avenge the ignominy of their earlier defeat.

Rhinos that can be salvaged are brought back to the forge and each wound reverently repaired by skilled artificers, the battle scars worn with pride and their war-spirits honoured with the Litanies of Battle. As a result, many Rhinos have remained in service for thousands of years, becoming holy relics amongst the Chapters of Space Marines and other Imperial servants who rely on them. The oldest Rhino still in existence belongs to the Salamanders, and is known as Nocturne's Hammer. The Salamanders tell that it carried their legendary Primarch, Vulkan, into battle at the Siege of Devlin's Fastness, sallying out through the gates of the Imperial fortress to attack the foe. Nocturne's Hammer has seen over eight thousand years of action and now has a place of honour in the Chapter's reliquary on Prometheus, its armoured hide scarred by millennia of war."
- excerpt from WD #269

tl;dr: because grimdark ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6216737.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6216737.page GMT Re:Power Armour manufacture
For reference, the Grey Knights have their own forgeworld, plus the resources and tech of mars available to them, and even they have to recover and reuse power armor, shown in the the grey knights omnibus where they buried a dead knight and his armor on a planet to be tagged and recovered later by recovery teams.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6216814.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6216814.page GMT Re:Power Armour manufacture
MKIV armour was the pinnacle of power armour technology but its creation and distribution was halted half way through that process by the Heresy - whilst the models and artwork don't show it, most of the MKIV armour actually went to the Traitor Legions. However, MKIV was more difficult to produce both in terms of materials and technology and so, the advances made were used to create the MKV, a stop gap armour necessary due to the Heresy which bits and pieces from all sorts of armour, mainly MKIV as well as the helmet from an early terminator armour.

MKVI was also a stop gap armour and the MKVII, which most Astartes use is only a modification of MKVI. To all intents and purposes the armour development programme ceased during the Heresy and even the latest MKVIII armour is only a further modification of MKVII, rather than something new.


Terminator armour suffers from the same problems. As the background has progressed these reasons have altered a little but the basic gist is that since Terminator armour is a modified environment suit each Terminator suit is somewhat unique although, there are distinct patterns of armour, especially now with Forge World making various versions. These suits use materials and technologies that were barely developed during the Heresy and throughout that period and since much knowledge has been lost and so it is necessary for suits to be maintained and salvaged since a new suit takes so long to build, up to 200 years as I recall.

A good example of all of this can be seen with the Thunderhawk Gunship. Basically the Thunderhawk is a pile of junk but it is easy (or more easy) to produce and gets the job done. It was never intended to be used for very long, it was just a vehicle that was necessary during the Heresy. It's a bit like the Sherman tank, compared to the Panzer tank it was rubbish but it was cheaper, easier and quicker to make and its very simplicity of design with its interchangeable parts ment that it could be repaired easily too.

The Imperium is in that situation; it has or at one time had, the ability to make very technologically advanced vehicles, weapons and armour systems. Due to their complexity they could not always be built quickly enough or be repaired and so more simplistic and crude versions were produced to fill the gap and that gap just went on and on and on and so only the crude versions could be made because the Imperium has a constant demand for them and so no period of relative peace allows for any advancement or even repair. Even with something like a Baneblade, modern production means that new Baneblades are inferior to ancient ones; it'd be like comparing one of those home made super cars to an actual super car, the home made one may look the part but at the end of the day it's something some bloke knocked together in his shed and is in no way comparable to the vehicle it is based on.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6217417.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6217417.page GMT Power Armour manufacture
 Tower75 wrote:

Why aren't the Space Marines, the sword of the Emperor, furnished with new armour and equipment? Can the Imperium no longer produce power armour?

Short answer; because the writers are inconsistent.

One aspect built into the setting originally was technological stagnation. Utter, total technological stagnation. But it became tiresome and restricting (in part because it is short sighted) and so has become circumvented in various ways. Practically there is no way any piece of (complex)equipment survives tens thousand years of use, let alone combat. Wear and tear will end it's life even if a weapon does not. Yes, you can build things tough but in an age of enlightenment and scientific knowledge- where many of these items originate- there was simply no need to design things with that kind of durability. Can you imagine trying to maintain an iPhone for 100 years? 1000? Good luck.

Fact is also that terminators and dreadnoughts- two famously irreplaceable items- would be lost over time. You will not win every battle and some will go unrecovered. Some will be unlucky enough to draw the attention of a titan and simply be vapourised. Others will fall to Chaos and you'll even lose some occasionally to ships lost at warp, in fleet engagements or drop pod accidents. Either you can replace them or you can't. If you can't, they should (by now) be so rare as to never see combat except under the most dire circumstances. Or you can build them (and they're worth building) in which case massive industrial might is turned to the task. So what if it takes a plant a month to make a dreadnought? Have 1000 plants working. Either supplies and parts are being renewed or they're not. The fiction suggests though that we are in the perpetual 'endangered species' phase where there are some left but they're slowly dying out. Like every other 40K storyline though this never advances.

The only plausible excuse for the paucity of such gear is that it can be made but is for some reason relegated to a minimum production run. Given Space Marine primacy and status that seems absurd.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6217478.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6217478.page GMT Re:Power Armour manufacture WH40K grimdark logic then? Ah, I love it.

What is tactical Dreadnought armour, then? Is Dreadnought armour the 'correct' name for Terminator armour, or have I made that up?

So, as in the world of WH40K, where everything old is awesome, and everything new is gak, would that mean HH-era Terminator armour is better than the Terminator armour of 'now'?

Also, that should mean the old Bolter patterns are better than the, say, Godwyn Pattern, no?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6217486.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6217486.page GMT Re:Power Armour manufacture
 Tower75 wrote:

What is tactical Dreadnought armour, then? Is Dreadnought armour the 'correct' name for Terminator armour, or have I made that up?

Yes, the official name for Terminator armour is Tactical Dreadnought Armour. But then back when it was created dreadnought armour was just that- a type of armour and not a life support/battlesuit.

So, as in the world of WH40K, where everything old is awesome, and everything new is gak, would that mean HH-era Terminator armour is better than the Terminator armour of 'now'?

Well... this is where I have an issue with the HH stuff. It should be far and away better as you can only assume that there is functionality lost over centuries of maintenance. The sheer number of components in something as complex as power armour, let alone terminator armour or dreadnoughts means it would be astounding if they maintained every aspect/feature perfectly over decades, let alone centuries . Doubly so when you consider they don't know how to make it.

Seriously imagine trying to fix an engine- even a simple combustion one- with no idea how internal combustion works and only pictures? How could you possibly diagnose a problem, let alone devise a solution?



]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6217507.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6217507.page GMT Power Armour manufacture http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6217522.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6217522.page GMT Power Armour manufacture
 BlaxicanX wrote:
Power Armor is manufactured by Apple.


Well, it clearly is not developed by Microsoft. It doesn't have that plastic-y look and malfunctions every time you look at it funny.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6217548.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6217548.page GMT Re:Power Armour manufacture
And it's so restrictive and non-customization friendly that only "special technicians" can work on them.

For a premium fee, of course.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6217584.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6217584.page GMT Power Armour manufacture
 Kojiro wrote:
Can you imagine trying to maintain an iPhone for 100 years? 1000? Good luck.


iPhones aren't designed to be maintainable at all. Our current disposable society means that its easier to replace a whole unit with a new thing than try to fix one that has been damaged. You could design an iPhone that is fully maintainable, but it would probably be much bigger to allow for more durable mounting points for electronics, power and screen tech.

A better example might be some of the military kit that was designed in the 60s and is still in use today. Most large items, such as MBTs and aircraft are designed to take mid-life refurbishment of electronics and weapon systems. Modern kit has to deal with advances in such items, leading to obsolesence, whereas in the 40k background there is no advancement, only a never ending supply of spare parts for existing kit.

Its like the George Washington's Axe example. Is it the same axe if the original handle and head have been replaced multiple times?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6222344.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6222344.page GMT Power Armour manufacture
Also, as the imperium crumbles they are moving more and more away form complex, difficult to manufacture but better gear to simipilar, easy to manufacture and slightly worse gear.

Basically its like the soviet Union when they abandoned the SVT-40 and went back to producing the 91/30 Mosin. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6223425.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6223425.page GMT Power Armour manufacture
 Flinty wrote:

A better example might be some of the military kit that was designed in the 60s and is still in use today. Most large items, such as MBTs and aircraft are designed to take mid-life refurbishment of electronics and weapon systems. Modern kit has to deal with advances in such items, leading to obsolesence, whereas in the 40k background there is no advancement, only a never ending supply of spare parts for existing kit.

Its like the George Washington's Axe example. Is it the same axe if the original handle and head have been replaced multiple times?


This is actually the best example to explain this that I've ever seen. Just look at the US's B-52 strategic bomber. We're still using 60-some year old airframes that have been continuously repaired. No new B-52's are being produced, and no new bomber is being designed. We are planning on keeping these bombers operational for decades to come. This is already sounding a tad grimdark, but it's actually all true.

Now imagine some catastrophe hits that sets mankind back, basic science research all but stops, and we're in a state of perpetual war. We're going to keep maintaining those B-52's as long as we can, even if it means figuring out work-arounds and starting production of inferior replacement parts to keep them going. Maybe in the future we'll reverse engineer them so we can make crude copies. Eventually a lot of the knowledge that went into making them will be lost altogether.

The only thing that makes the 40k setting's version of the above goofy is if you imagine that stretched out over 10,000 years.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6223507.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6223507.page GMT Power Armour manufacture
 Flinty wrote:
iPhones aren't designed to be maintainable at all. Our current disposable society means that its easier to replace a whole unit with a new thing than try to fix one that has been damaged.
That's exactly my point- this 10,000 year old gear was designed and made in a era of conquest, enlightenment and plenty. The Emperor literally looked at his resources and said 'Yep, that's enough to conquer the galaxy.' and off he went. To them bolters were just weapons, not sacred relics and the loss/replacement of one was no big issue.

 Flinty wrote:
You could design an iPhone that is fully maintainable, but it would probably be much bigger to allow for more durable mounting points for electronics, power and screen tech.
Well you could try certainly. But there is a reason why no one (well, very very few people) is building tech today designed to last through an apocalypse/societal collapse and go on another 50 years.

 Flinty wrote:
A better example might be some of the military kit that was designed in the 60s and is still in use today. Most large items, such as MBTs and aircraft are designed to take mid-life refurbishment of electronics and weapon systems.
Naturally they are, and there's nothing wrong with having a lifespan at the sweet spot of cost vs usefulness. But that's the thing, there is a sweet spot and eventually it's better to just make a new one.

 Flinty wrote:
Modern kit has to deal with advances in such items, leading to obsolesence, whereas in the 40k background there is no advancement, only a never ending supply of spare parts for existing kit.
This is where we agree. If nothing better is coming out then of course you maintain what you have. And this certainly holds true of bolters, rhinos and countless other things. Where it doesn't work is for items like the mentioned TDA and dreadnoughts. If you can make all the parts for, repair and maintain one- and over 10,000 years you will need to replace everything, especially if you're seeing combat- then you can make new entirely new ones.

 Flinty wrote:
Its like the George Washington's Axe example. Is it the same axe if the original handle and head have been replaced multiple times?
Ship of Theseus I believe you're referring to. To be fair one of my points was only implicit. Basically if you can make 99% of a dreadnought then all dreadnoughs over time will become 99% functional. As the ability to make those parts (or even install them or understand what they're for) dimishes (say the machine that makes widget X breaks) that will continually drop until you hit a critical point where dreadnoughts are either so gimped they can't function properly or won't function at all.

The idea GW wants is to make these things rare, revered relics, which would work if they were entombed in shrines and never touched. If they're routinely sent into combat they're going to break and even a regular marine will notice parts of his bolter being replaced over centuries of service, let alone the techmarine who does it and ends up with a room of spare wooden planks and masts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

The only thing that makes the 40k setting's version of the above goofy is if you imagine that stretched out over 10,000 years.
This is exactly the problem.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6224701.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6224701.page GMT Power Armour manufacture
I would tend to agree that there must be methods to create new suits (especially given the horrendous casualty rate my Deathwing froce suffers on a regular basis). I was just trying to expand on how you could maintain something over an extended period.

Ah, so Bolters are so bulky becacuse they also have a sailing ship included in them ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6225638.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6225638.page GMT Power Armour manufacture
 Tower75 wrote:

We all know the manufacturing capabilities of the Imperium of Man: lasguns, Leman Russ, flak armour, ammunition, starships, basically everything that is needed to run the Imperium is manufactured en mass times a billion, hell, even Baneblades are churned out, non-stop fom forgeworlds.
So, if that's what the Imperium can churn out on an average Wednesday, why do the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes end up with power armour that's centuries, or even thousands of years old? I think I read somewhere that the Ultramarines Chapter only has about 60 odd Terminator suites of amour. If so, why?
Why aren't the Space Marines, the sword of the Emperor, furnished with new armour and equipment? Can the Imperium no longer produce power armour?


They can produce it, but it is expensive. It is probably as difficult to make a new suit of power armor as it is to build a sentinal or maybe even a chimera. You could certainly invest the same resources and make enough lasguns, flamers, autocannons, grenades and flakk armor to equip a few platoons of IG.

So they do not produce excessive quantities of power armor. Instead they produce just enough to replace what is lost.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6226750.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6226750.page GMT Power Armour manufacture http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6228001.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6228001.page GMT Power Armour manufacture
 vodo40k wrote:
The ad mech forge worlds are loath to share knowledge with eachother. A suit of power armour (astartes pattern anyway) is also extremely complex to make.


Which is why Chapters maintain their own suits and even cobble together new ones from old parts and whatever the Techmarines can put together by copying old designs. Half a working Mk V, a Mk VI helmet, a refurbished Mk VII backpack coupled with a few new pieces and vóila! A new suit for Battle-Brother Mookius Expendabilius.

That's also why I think the Adepta Sororitas PA is in some respects superior to Astartes PA - their suits are bought straight from the AdMech for cold hard cash and all of the same standard design. And they offer the same protection while looking a lot sleeker and comfortable. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6228218.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6228218.page GMT Re:Power Armour manufacture
Seriously imagine trying to fix an engine- even a simple combustion one- with no idea how internal combustion works and only pictures? How could you possibly diagnose a problem, let alone devise a solution?


Exactly. Please tell me how a group of tech-adepts can diagnose and repair a suit of Terminator armor, but the art of making one has been lost. Those two facts cannot logically go together other than in the crazy grimdark setting of 40K.

I don't care how much you pray and apply sacred oils to keep a plasma reactor running, eventually every individual part will break at some point or another- and once you have replaced each and every individual part- even over a span of several centuries or millennia- you have by default shown the collective ability to build said plasma reactor.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6228255.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6228255.page GMT Power Armour manufacture De Beers diamond company which deliberately only allows so many diamonds onto the market each year to keep prices high, the Mechanicus, despite knowing perfectly well how to fabricate many of these 'lost' technologies, only produces so many and at a certain rate, in order to keep their stranglehold on technology and the dependance the Imperium has on the Mechanicus.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6228801.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6228801.page GMT Re:Power Armour manufacture
 AegisGrimm wrote:
Seriously imagine trying to fix an engine- even a simple combustion one- with no idea how internal combustion works and only pictures? How could you possibly diagnose a problem, let alone devise a solution?


Exactly. Please tell me how a group of tech-adepts can diagnose and repair a suit of Terminator armor, but the art of making one has been lost. Those two facts cannot logically go together other than in the crazy grimdark setting of 40K.

I don't care how much you pray and apply sacred oils to keep a plasma reactor running, eventually every individual part will break at some point or another- and once you have replaced each and every individual part- even over a span of several centuries or millennia- you have by default shown the collective ability to build said plasma reactor.


Unless, of course, the device relies on a component that you don't have and cant replace. I know roughly how my computer works, I can fix a myriad of problems by taking it apart and replacing faulty components. But heaven help me if I don't have a replacement CPU, or RAM or any singular, essential component, 'cause I sure as hell don't know how to build one of those from scratch.

There is plenty of evidence that the Ad-mech understand the theories that their equipment operates under, the hurdle is usually one of expertise (I understand the workings of the plasma pistol, but the there is only 5 people on this forge world who can properly calibrate the wave regulator, and they are on another continent), infrastructure (That was out last wave regulator, and the factory that makes them was blown up last week) and materials (The wave regulator needs wavregulium to work at the required efficiency, and that's only found on gas giants in the phelbtom sector).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6229224.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6229224.page GMT Power Armour manufacture
Gogsnik wrote:The other thing to contemplate is that, as with the De Beers diamond company which deliberately only allows so many diamonds onto the market each year to keep prices high, the Mechanicus, despite knowing perfectly well how to fabricate many of these 'lost' technologies, only produces so many and at a certain rate, in order to keep their stranglehold on technology and the dependance the Imperium has on the Mechanicus.


A good point. One that I didn't think about. Sneaky, sneaky Mechanicus. Don't believe 'em!

Pendix wrote:

Unless, of course, the device relies on a component that you don't have and cant replace. I know roughly how my computer works, I can fix a myriad of problems by taking it apart and replacing faulty components. But heaven help me if I don't have a replacement CPU, or RAM or any singular, essential component, 'cause I sure as hell don't know how to build one of those from scratch.

There is plenty of evidence that the Ad-mech understand the theories that their equipment operates under, the hurdle is usually one of expertise (I understand the workings of the plasma pistol, but the there is only 5 people on this forge world who can properly calibrate the wave regulator, and they are on another continent), infrastructure (That was out last wave regulator, and the factory that makes them was blown up last week) and materials (The wave regulator needs wavregulium to work at the required efficiency, and that's only found on gas giants in the phelbtom sector).


Another good point. Like wise, in real life, I belong to the National Rifle Association. I own and shoot rifles. I know how they work, I know how to use them, and how to maintain them in addition to replacing spare parts, but bugger me if, say, a barrel spits, I can't replace that! A workshop could, with a spare barrel, but me at my work bench couldn't.

I guess it's the same thing. The Adeptus Astartes know how their armour works, they use it frequently within their average 300+ year life span, and the Tech Marines know how it works, and can maintain them to certain degrees, but if part XYZ goes, well, that's gotta go back to the shop on Forge World X, with a hope that the guarantee is still good.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6229670.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6229670.page GMT Power Armour manufacture
 Kojiro wrote:
Short answer; because the writers are inconsistent.


This.
Depends on the chapter, some chapter like the Salamanders, Sons of Medusa and the Minotaurs are extremely well equipped, either due to their own production facilities or the fact that they are very well connected. The Minotaurs can equip their entire 1st compnay in TDA, without any problems at all. As they are the High Lords attack dogs so get all the newest TDA. Other chapters that due to p***ing off the wrong people, long periods between resupplies and other reasons, rely on olders MKs of armour and gear and have shortages. Examples i can think of are the Carcharadons or the Marines Malevolent. The fluff surrounding space marine equipment is some of the worst in the 40k universe in my opinion. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6230036.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6230036.page GMT Power Armour manufacture
 uk_crow wrote:
 Kojiro wrote:
Short answer; because the writers are inconsistent.


This.
Depends on the chapter, some chapter like the Salamanders, Sons of Medusa and the Minotaurs are extremely well equipped, either due to their own production facilities or the fact that they are very well connected. The Minotaurs can equip their entire 1st compnay in TDA, without any problems at all. As they are the High Lords attack dogs so get all the newest TDA. Other chapters that due to p***ing off the wrong people, long periods between resupplies and other reasons, rely on olders MKs of armour and gear and have shortages. Examples i can think of are the Carcharadons or the Marines Malevolent. The fluff surrounding space marine equipment is some of the worst in the 40k universe in my opinion.


Agreed. As much as I like the fluff of WH40K, the inconsistant writtings of the Space Marine gears annoys me. One novel, the Astartes Armour is amazing, and only about 1000 lasguns firing in unison, from 30 yards away can actually hurt the Space Marine, and in others, an auto-pistol can knock chunks of plate off of power armour! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6230076.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6230076.page GMT Power Armour manufacture
 Tower75 wrote:


Pendix wrote:
Unless, of course, the device relies on a component that you don't have and cant replace. I know roughly how my computer works, I can fix a myriad of problems by taking it apart and replacing faulty components. But heaven help me if I don't have a replacement CPU, or RAM or any singular, essential component, 'cause I sure as hell don't know how to build one of those from scratch.

There is plenty of evidence that the Ad-mech understand the theories that their equipment operates under, the hurdle is usually one of expertise (I understand the workings of the plasma pistol, but the there is only 5 people on this forge world who can properly calibrate the wave regulator, and they are on another continent), infrastructure (That was out last wave regulator, and the factory that makes them was blown up last week) and materials (The wave regulator needs wavregulium to work at the required efficiency, and that's only found on gas giants in the phelbtom sector).


Another good point. Like wise, in real life, I belong to the National Rifle Association. I own and shoot rifles. I know how they work, I know how to use them, and how to maintain them in addition to replacing spare parts, but bugger me if, say, a barrel spits, I can't replace that! A workshop could, with a spare barrel, but me at my work bench couldn't.


Imagine if you own a super high end rifle. The barrel was a very expensive exotic alloy milled to absolute precision which allows it to fire bullets with a higher charge, with more accuracy that a cheapsky rifle of the same size. Now the barrel splits, and you find a workshop that can make a barrel. If the barrel is not of the same quality your high end rifle can no longer fire high charge ammunition nor does it have high accuracy.

What if terminator armor is so incredible, because it is made up of super high quality parts all working together. If it is damaged, other high quality parts can be scavenged or perhaps one or two low quality parts can be substituted and the overall effect is much the same. But try to make an entire suit out of low quality parts and it just fails.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Pendix wrote:
 AegisGrimm wrote:
Seriously imagine trying to fix an engine- even a simple combustion one- with no idea how internal combustion works and only pictures? How could you possibly diagnose a problem, let alone devise a solution?

Exactly. Please tell me how a group of tech-adepts can diagnose and repair a suit of Terminator armor, but the art of making one has been lost. Those two facts cannot logically go together other than in the crazy grimdark setting of 40K.
I don't care how much you pray and apply sacred oils to keep a plasma reactor running, eventually every individual part will break at some point or another- and once you have replaced each and every individual part- even over a span of several centuries or millennia- you have by default shown the collective ability to build said plasma reactor.


Unless, of course, the device relies on a component that you don't have and cant replace. I know roughly how my computer works, I can fix a myriad of problems by taking it apart and replacing faulty components. But heaven help me if I don't have a replacement CPU, or RAM or any singular, essential component, 'cause I sure as hell don't know how to build one of those from scratch.

There is plenty of evidence that the Ad-mech understand the theories that their equipment operates under, the hurdle is usually one of expertise (I understand the workings of the plasma pistol, but the there is only 5 people on this forge world who can properly calibrate the wave regulator, and they are on another continent), infrastructure (That was out last wave regulator, and the factory that makes them was blown up last week) and materials (The wave regulator needs wavregulium to work at the required efficiency, and that's only found on gas giants in the phelbtom sector).


In fact if you look at some technologies that we have lost, like for instance large gasoline internal combustion engines(that use to power aircraft) we can maintain them but not build them. large and performance aircraft are now powered by jets. Trucks, trains and heavy machinery are powered by diesel. Large gasoline engines generate internal stresses well in excess of what diesel models can cope with. The crank shaft on premier WWII fighter engines cannot be reproduced. The metallurgy to make them is a lost art. If something like the valves need replacing, they can without issue. But if the crank shaft breaks, the engine is dead.

Now in our advanced technological state, if we really needed to we could make a new one, but currently there is no workshop on the planet that can make one. It would require large investment to make a shop capable of making such specific requirements.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Tower75 wrote:
 uk_crow wrote:
 Kojiro wrote:
Short answer; because the writers are inconsistent.


This.
Depends on the chapter, some chapter like the Salamanders, Sons of Medusa and the Minotaurs are extremely well equipped, either due to their own production facilities or the fact that they are very well connected. The Minotaurs can equip their entire 1st compnay in TDA, without any problems at all. As they are the High Lords attack dogs so get all the newest TDA. Other chapters that due to p***ing off the wrong people, long periods between resupplies and other reasons, rely on olders MKs of armour and gear and have shortages. Examples i can think of are the Carcharadons or the Marines Malevolent. The fluff surrounding space marine equipment is some of the worst in the 40k universe in my opinion.


Agreed. As much as I like the fluff of WH40K, the inconsistant writtings of the Space Marine gears annoys me. One novel, the Astartes Armour is amazing, and only about 1000 lasguns firing in unison, from 30 yards away can actually hurt the Space Marine, and in others, an auto-pistol can knock chunks of plate off of power armour!


If the original tech was that advanced, but then with wear and tear and inferior replacement parts both could be true.

Originally it would take 1000 lasguns 30meters away to do anything substantial, but after 10,000 years and being blown up by demolisher blasts, lascannons, and god knows what they have to find replacement parts. Some of them are subpar and then a single autogun can knock something off. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6230553.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6230553.page GMT Power Armour manufacture
"His armour hadn't been the same since the insurrection on Lanis IX five years ago. The armour had never truly recovered its spirit since the injury and the replacement parts were weaker and slower than the old ones."

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6232883.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6232883.page GMT Re:Power Armour manufacture
Night Lords placed forever on the Chapter's Litany of Hatred

Haven't they been placed under these litanies before, some of the hate getting redundant.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6233137.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/561431/6233137.page GMT