<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Advice on how to approach List Building?"]]>

<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Advice on how to approach List Building?"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/14.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Advice on how to approach List Building?
Ive been reading a few articles on the web trying to improve my list building; as ive only played a few games.
I was looking for advice on how I should approach constructing a list. I know that everyone will have a different method and opinion, but I am hoping someone could point out weaknesses in the way I build and perhaps things I am not taking into consideration. EDIT: At current I only play around 1500pt games

At the moment these are the things I consider:

Theme I want to play - Aka deepstriking, rush etc.

Core HQ choice and troops

Units to cover killing different enemies - Types listed below

EDIT: My List and how id play it:

Spoiler:

Having looked at the list as a final list I can already see a few issues. 2+ and AV13+.
I do have dark lances, but not enough, with only 3 shots threatening AV13+ each turn im not likely to drop anything in turn 1. With turn 2 im more likely, but by then il be wanting to bring out my AV10 vehicles and il probably be blown away by any list that had 2-3 vehicles.

I think I need to sacrifice troops (as I have so many wound on X(4+) weapons with both rangers and Kwarriors. Perhaps pick up some Eldar reapers or DE trueborn, with blasters in a venom. Il have a think over my dinner

Edit: Improved List ( I think!)

Spoiler:

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6291473.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6291473.page GMT Re:Advice on how to approach List Building?
Develop a strategy. Do you want to alphastrike them and cripple them? Do you want the beta strike counter attack? (play Space Wolves lol) do you want to win the war by attrition, ticking off wounds and hull points on your opponent while your units are as numerous as ever? (whether that be 5 men or 50)

Good now that you have a strategy (and hopefully it isn't countered by your opponents strategy or units) pick some units that fulfill those roles. Drop pods, rhino/razor spam, blob guard, respective examples of the above strategies although the beauty of 40k is there are infinite strategies and infinite ways to accomplish them. Some are just more effective than others.

Good, now that you have the force that you wanted, EQUIP THEM. Contrary to popular dogma, that says stuff your points full to the brim with units, this never really works unless you play orks. For a regular 1500 pt army, I say leave the last 100 pts open so that you can give your army gear to tackle any and all comers. This is where your check box list comes in. Make sure you have a weapon for every occasion. Infantry should be "hordes", tanks should be "AV14" and ICs should be "Deathstars" everything else is good. If you can effectively handle or neautralize these common units, in any way you see fit, then you have the beginnings of a balanced force.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6291914.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6291914.page GMT Advice on how to approach List Building?
I have literally just read that the (3+) from Duke is a bonus given at the start of the game and applies throughout, even if he leaves the unit. And seeing how he isn't particularly doing much by sitting in the squad I think il join him to a 20 man squad, have him leave first turn and join a CC squad in a venom.

Going to go away and finish up my list and then il post it up along with my thought process

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6291945.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6291945.page GMT Re:Advice on how to approach List Building?
Rather than starting with my "core" (HQ and Troops), I start with the hammer or main focal point of the list and build from there. I will use my recent Iron Hands 1,850 list as an example. This is what I like to cover in any army list of 1,000 points or greater:

-Moderate anti-air
-Excessive anti-tank
-Excessive anti-MEQ (CC or shooting)
-A small amount of Blast and/or Flamer weapons for light infantry/GEQ
-Redundant Melta/anti-AV14 (at least 2 units)
-2-3 "forward" troop choices
-1-2 "static" troop choice

I wanted an Iron Hands list with 2 Land Raiders full of TH/SS Terminators. That's a huge chunk of points, but it's what I wanted from this list. So we start with:

2x 5 Assault Terminators 450
-TH/SS
2x Land Raider Crusader 520
-Multi-Melta

That covers my anti-MEQ almost completely (CC from the termies and firepower from the LRCs) and adds a little melta. Not much off the list for 970 points, but it's what I want to build my list around. Next, let's add my HQ and troops. We want to keep this cheap, so:

Librarian 65
-Biomancy

2x 5 Tactical Marines 230
-Meltagun, Rhino

This gets my "core" requirements out of the way, and checks off "forward scoring units" and "redundant melta". I would still like even more melta, but we'll get there. For now, we need more anti-air, anti-tank, and scoring. Let's take some IG.

Company Command Squad 145
-4 Meltaguns, Chimera

Platoon Command Squad 50 (hops in a Vendetta)
-4 Flamers
2x Infantry Squad 130
-Flamer, Autocannon

2x Vendetta 260

This adds "home" scoring, flamers/templates, anti-air, and anti-tank. It also puts us right at 1,850. It's amazing what IG allies can do for an army, lol. This army is now complete. While it isn't the "hardest" army you will come across, it has all of its bases covered and can reasonably hold it's own against any TAC list.

I hope explaining my though process has helped you a bit. It seems you can already make a decent list, but I urge you to consider building your "core" around your main offensive units and not the other way around. Troops can score but it's the other FOC slots that do the real damage (in most cases). ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6292016.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6292016.page GMT Re:Advice on how to approach List Building? IG, this means 2-3 Vendettas and 2-3 Manticores. For CSM, this means 2-3 Heldrakes. It may not be "fluffy" but it'll get you to a competitive list with minimal fuss. The days of close combat deathstars are pretty much over, so most of the deathstars are shooting-based.

While 6th edition has lots of objective-based missions, many games end up getting pushed to secondaries so having scoring units isn't as important now as it was in 5th, IMO. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6292031.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6292031.page GMT Advice on how to approach List Building? Both of you have basically picked the hammer/anvil units first and then thought about how to supplement them.

Well ive just built a list that is basically how id like to play. Having looked it over I feel it is lacking a few things. But il Edit my main post and give my thoughts on what I chose. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6292138.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6292138.page GMT Advice on how to approach List Building?

Solar Shock wrote:
Thats an interesting take

Both of you have basically picked the hammer/anvil units first and then thought about how to supplement them.

Well ive just built a list that is basically how id like to play. Having looked it over I feel it is lacking a few things. But il Edit my main post and give my thoughts on what I chose.

You should develop your strategy for a certain meta game so you don't risk developing a strategy that only works in a vacuum.

What do people LOVE right now? Monstrous creatures like Riptides and Wraith Knights. What do DE have that tear MCs apart? Poisoned weapons.

Check your codex for the most efficient ways to take insane numbers of poisoned weapons. Lots of people rely on Venoms for this duty.

Also consider allies. With Dark Eldar, some regular Eldar allies would help you a lot. You can abuse the rules for stealth by running Baron Sathonyx with a beast pack, then an Allied Farseer hoping for Fortune or something along those lines. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6292197.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6292197.page GMT Advice on how to approach List Building?
I tried not to think too much in a vacuum, but I dont have much exp actually playing. (spend tooo long modelling and thinking up awesomesauce plans). I currently play orks, but ive almost finished my army and need a new project (this force).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6292256.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6292256.page GMT Re:Advice on how to approach List Building?

Gorgosaurusrex wrote:
I approach listbuilding a bit differently.

Rather than starting with my "core" (HQ and Troops), I start with the hammer or main focal point of the list and build from there. I will use my recent Iron Hands 1,850 list as an example. This is what I like to cover in any army list of 1,000 points or greater:

-Moderate anti-air
-Excessive anti-tank
-Excessive anti-MEQ (CC or shooting)
-A small amount of Blast and/or Flamer weapons for light infantry/GEQ
-Redundant Melta/anti-AV14 (at least 2 units)
-2-3 "forward" troop choices
-1-2 "static" troop choice

I wanted an Iron Hands list with 2 Land Raiders full of TH/SS Terminators. That's a huge chunk of points, but it's what I wanted from this list. So we start with:

2x 5 Assault Terminators 450
-TH/SS
2x Land Raider Crusader 520
-Multi-Melta

That covers my anti-MEQ almost completely (CC from the termies and firepower from the LRCs) and adds a little melta. Not much off the list for 970 points, but it's what I want to build my list around. Next, let's add my HQ and troops. We want to keep this cheap, so:

Librarian 65
-Biomancy

2x 5 Tactical Marines 230
-Meltagun, Rhino

This gets my "core" requirements out of the way, and checks off "forward scoring units" and "redundant melta". I would still like even more melta, but we'll get there. For now, we need more anti-air, anti-tank, and scoring. Let's take some IG.

Company Command Squad 145
-4 Meltaguns, Chimera

Platoon Command Squad 50 (hops in a Vendetta)
-4 Flamers
2x Infantry Squad 130
-Flamer, Autocannon

2x Vendetta 260

This adds "home" scoring, flamers/templates, anti-air, and anti-tank. It also puts us right at 1,850. It's amazing what IG allies can do for an army, lol. This army is now complete. While it isn't the "hardest" army you will come across, it has all of its bases covered and can reasonably hold it's own against any TAC list.

I hope explaining my though process has helped you a bit. It seems you can already make a decent list, but I urge you to consider building your "core" around your main offensive units and not the other way around. Troops can score but it's the other FOC slots that do the real damage (in most cases).

I like your take on building, but if your IG are Allies,you can not take 2 vendettas, unless you are squadroning them.. if you are then you are okay, just pointing it out

The way I build is similar to the first suggestion.
I approach it two ways. How do I deal with troops, how do my troops score, since majority of games are objective based. I then approach it depending on the army I want to play... If I play Eldar I like to run things fast so I like things on bikes, serpents, jump or jet packs or deep striking. If I play my Tau do I make a gun line and hope to blow them off the board and sacrifice maneuvering - which you can make up by allieing in Eldar. Do I want to play all drop pod army, and bring the hammer down on turn 1. Do I want all speed eldar and dark eldar. If I take IG do I want a leafblower army - a bunch of guns and tanks and vendettas to blow them off the board.
In the end you will develop your own playstyle for games and you will have your own way on making lists.
In the end I think you have to play what makes you happy and try to have games with nice people who will have patience to teach you the game. In addition, EXPECT to get your ass handed to you the first 10-20 games you play. Learn from each one - do not give up on armies or units - just look at the game and go what could I have done differently or how could I make it better. Cheers and good luck,]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6292279.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6292279.page GMT Advice on how to approach List Building?
Granted if you're very good at strats then I've narrow that handy cap to 200-250pts. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6292383.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6292383.page GMT Advice on how to approach List Building?

Stormbreed wrote:
That is a nice list for non competitive play, if you can find some guys who don't mind giving you a 250 to 300 point handy cap you may even win a couple games.

Granted if you're very good at strats then I've narrow that handy cap to 200-250pts.

hahahaaha

care to expand on the weaknesses?
And while im not looking to play tournies, I want to win in my FLGS. just working on a improved list I hope.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6292433.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6292433.page GMT Advice on how to approach List Building? WS, war walkers, crimson hunters,
and a far seer with MotLG.

Above are the best options in the Eldar codex, they are cheap
and OP for their cost it will give you an advantage with the DE.

For DE i know trueborn with blasters in venoms are nasty so
use them, taking 10 man squads of DE warriors in ravengers
with a DL and repeat, also beasts in 6th ed are amaising,
I believe that razor flocks are best? (please correct me on this).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6292737.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6292737.page GMT Re:Advice on how to approach List Building?

Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
I like your take on building, but if your IG are Allies,you can not take 2 vendettas, unless you are squadroning them.. if you are then you are okay, just pointing it out

Yes, the Vendettas are together in a single squadron. They make my life easier against Heldrakes, Riptides, and Wraithknights... all of which are commonplace at tournaments!

2+ saves can be a pain to deal with, and that's where your Dark Lances come in. Poisoned shots aren't the most efficient thing to throw at Terminators. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6292804.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6292804.page GMT Advice on how to approach List Building? 40k.

The way I think about things when creating a list is:

Make sure I pack not only the right tools, but also enough of them. Redundancy is valuable up to a point, but don't overdo it.

By right tools I mainly mean in terms of firepower. You should have a consistent way of dealing with:

1) Elite High Armor units: Terminators (particularly paladins for when you happen to see them, or TH/SS termies) and certain tau suits, meaning you need medium - high strength low AP weapons that you can either drop pie plates of or dakka a lot with. The new eldar "rending" means if you are playing eldar, you can mostly ignore this with enough shuriken and monofiliment.

2) Mech lists: av 10-12 transport spam (expect 5-10). This means lots of dakka that can blow things up before it gets close either through variety of units having medium STR (5-7) weapons, since those tend to put out more shots than higher str weapons. You need volume of the 5-7 str stuff to reliably pop those vehicles. Essentially if you look at it: for +5 points per weapon on a War Walker you get either 8 str 6 shots or 2 str 8 shots (ap 2 for str 8). Those are essentially equivelent options points wise but given the way 6th plays out, penetration rolls aren't the most efficient way to blast vehicles. It is about stripping the hull points, although those lucky explodes are always nice. *NOTE* that was for demonstration purposes only. For my lists it works better for me to take 2x bright lances on my walkers, given what else i have in my army.

3) Heavy Vehicles: this is 2 parts:
i. av 13 you can't really spam so it kind of falls into the heavy category, but a lot of stuff is now at str 7 meaning it can deal with av 13 as if it were in the av 10-12 spam range. You still need to deal with this, but take those points into consideration.
ii. av 14: mainly by this I mean Land Raiders and Monoliths. Everything else you just hit from the side and treat as lower armor, although this requires manueverability. However given that monoliths and land raiders do have 4 hull points, you do need a method of dealing with them. If that method dies though, you are sunk. So make sure it is either super survivable, or has a backup (even an inefficient or not perfect one. Best example was when i would use haywire grenades on wyches in venoms. I would take 2 of these mainly for the 12 bs 4 poison shots per venom, and the ability to score. If needed though, I would turbo boost up the board and next turn they'd assault that monolith and blow it up, if my Walkers weren't gettting the job done)

4.) Flying Monstrous Creatures: you need a method of grounding MCs that are flying. Given that they only take 1 grounding check per squad shooting at them (and only on a HIT *NOT* on a wound), make sure you bring a lot of different squads with decent range (or alternatively maneuverability) so that you can shoot 3-5 units at a MC just to ground it (you'll take off a few wounds in the process). If you have split fire this is even easier, as you just portion out 1 guy shooting him out of each squad until you ground him while the rest of the squad still kills other stuff. Using cheap, small, low value units to do this is ideal (for example: say you have 3 squads of 3 Windrider Jetbikes just hanging around your backline, and you're struggling vs the last daemon prince in a monster mash list at turn 4 (you will be hurting a lot and in a very precarious position if you don't kill it this turn), but you have enough firepower to kill it if it were on the ground. send your 3 jetbike squads out and have them all shoot first, hoping they ground him (doubly effective since their catapult is TL, and probably least killy unit in your army, so their guns aren't wasted that turn).

5) Monstrous Creatures: You need a way to deal with MCs period, especially after you ground them. This usually means high number of medium str low ap weapons (or buckets of rending or pseudo rending since those auto wound). You want to minimize the number of units you need to shoot at one to kill it. There are a few reasons for this:

i. Highly dangerous to elite units usually. The greatest threats to your opponent are usually in the form of Tanks/other long range gun platforms, or really tough to kill units. MCs can generally fair at minimum fairly adequetly vs these threats (in the form of either smash attacks to vehicles, tar pitting and eventually routing "stronger" units by shrugging off wounds with iron arms/it will not die, Kiting you in the case of riptide and WK, and just destroying you better as a mobile gun platform)
ii. Horde units are generally ineffective vs them, leaving you with much fewer options of protecting yourself.
iii. Points wise, while expensive MCs can take a greater punishment ratio than equivalent point value squad of MEQs,
iv.most importantly though, the biggest danger of MCs is that they can seamlessly slip into any of these roles from one turn to the next. They are versatile and can usually do great damage to your plans either in the form of destroying or tying up units that you really really need in order to win.

6) Flyers: the reality is they are not usually as dangerous as everyone made them out to be towards the beginning of 6th. That is not to say they are not dangerous, simply that they are not always the most efficient killers, so overusing them can be detrimental, so you'll rarely see Lists featuring more than 3 flyers. This is even more true now because of the Tau codex, which just hands out not only skyfire, but interceptor like candy. You cannot ignore this though, so have some plans for dealing with that heldrake that someone brings (or even 2 or 3 of them). This does not mean you have to kill all of them, but you need to have a way to at least threaten them and should be 100% sure you can deal with 1 flyer (maybe even 2) no matter which flyer it is. Some of them are there for Anti Vehicle, and if you are running mostly a maneuverable foot list, you really aren't hurt by it.. Conversely if you're running mech and someone brings a heldrake, if you have people inside transports, you really are not going to care too much about losing 1 transport a turn out of 7-9 from that heldrake from turn 3-6. that just means he's not burninating your precious troops.

7) Hordes: you can very very easily get overwhelmed by a greentide or even ig foot gunline, if you aren't prepared for it. Bring high volume shots and templates. Flamers are a universal favorite for killing weakly protected low toughness units that rely on cover.

8) Deep strikers: If your opponent has them, you need to be conscious of it, especially if it is a drop pod list. This doesn't mean you need interceptor, but it does mean be wary of how you move and deploy.

9) Barrage weapons/artillery: These usually hang back and can ber very deadly, usually hiding in cover or out of LOS with decently high toughness/armor or AV. You need a reliable way to deal with these threats from long range if need be. I personally love wave Serpents for this role. That is pretty much their perfect role: killing "light" vehicles in cover.

10) Snipers/other units that rely purely on cover saves: Lots of things ignore cover saves. Assaulting, flamers, tau, wave serpents, barrage/ordinance blasts (I forget which, I don't have rules on me right now). Point is though, that some of these like pathfinders need to die not just on that turn but like before the game even started, if you know what i mean. That's what these weapons are for. Bring them. You may not use them every game, but you will want to have them available.

11) MEQs: Marines got a lot less expensive. You can put out a lot of them on the table with a T4 3+ armor save, not counting the cover. these aren't hard to kill, but if you don't check your list to see if what you're bringing covers this range, you are asking to get your teeth kicked in.

12) Fast Assaulting or even harassing units (usually have hit and run/etc): These things move fast, and hit hard. You need to either be able to avoid them to focus on the things that are supporting them or you need to be able to sufficiently weaken them first turn that they are ineffective in their turn 2 assault and usually negligible by the end of turn 2.

13) That one thing that needs to die first or second turn or you lose: the nature of lists is that you have a weakness, due to composition of weapons or model types. Point is though there is usually at least one thing that the opponent brings that really fits that niche of being perfect for killing your type of list. After all it is a TAC list and you cannot rely on your opponent not bringing enough of the right tools. This is probably the most important thing to check for: ARE YOU ABLE TO HOLD OUT FOR THE TIME IT TAKES TO KILL THAT ONE THING? If you cannot, you need to change things until you can. This means either adding a unit that can rapidly and efficiently demolish that one threat, no matter what form, or having so many tough to kill or expendable redundant units, that you have the luxury of taking till turn 3 to kill it. This last scenario is not the case over 90% of the time.

Those are the tools you pack for offense. I'm going to do the second post on defense.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6294017.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6294017.page GMT Advice on how to approach List Building?
1) Troops: This is a very very fundamental issue that it took me a very long while to grasp. when I started I just played Kill point missions. While interesting in the beginning, this is a very limited form of 40k. KP missions are 1/6 of book missions and usually less prominent than that even in the tournament scene. That means that troops are NEEDED in order to win objective games. If you can't hold objectives because you have no more troops left, that puts a lot of pressure on you to not only have gotten first blood, but Warlord and line breaker, while destroying ALL of your opponents troops, or contesting his objectives. Point is it makes the game harder on you. given the layout of Objectives, I find that it is best to be able to have some troops that are ABLE to wind up on my opponents starting zone should I CHOOSE for that to be my course of action. You should not limit yourself by the mobility of your troops. this does not mean all of your troops have to be mobile, but having 2 troops that can take deep objectives or end the game where you need them to is incredibly strategic and critical at a high level of play.

2) Model Count: you will have models and units die in a game of 40k. if you only have 6 models, no matter if they are all land raiders, or all daemon princes, you will lose. Maybe not to every list, but there is one person you will fight in a tournament or just randomly that will have brought a metric F-ton of meltas either purposely or inadvertently. There is no specific number that I go for personally, but you should be very aware of how your model count stacks up to not just your one opponents list, but most lists. If you are playing a low model count list, it might be because you have 5 daemon princes taking up over 1K points. But that still means you only have maybe 25 models on the table. compare that to a marine army (lets say averaging 60~ models depending on chapter/tactics). Even if you lose a (lets say) 3 of your 10 point troop models in an assualt to kill the 5-man marine squad with a Missile Launcher, you lost about 1/8th of your models and he only lost on average 1/12th of his. He might have spent more on his so in that way it was a good move, but he has the ability to lose more points because of the number of other models/squads he has to accomplish objectives. This is also why Greentide/horde armies, are perfectly fine losing 30-60+ orks on turn 1 and still winning They can have over 200+ models so even if they lose half them getting to you, your 60ish marines are still outnumbered 2 to 1 vs not necessarily better assault units but not bad ones either.

3) Mobility: There are really only two things you do in 40K: hurt things to keep them from killing you too fast to get done what you need to, or avoid things so that you aren't killed as fast so you can get done what you need to. This falls into the second category. If you aren't mobile, that is okay, but you do need to be aware of it, and take that into account, vs say eldar or DE. Have a methodology of dealing with not just your own mobility or lack of, but also your opponents. If you are IG running a list that Tau can outshoot, but you can survive an assaulty Blood Angels list, that is great, but you're still losing at your own game of being shooty gunline. If you are bringing one type of list, make sure that if someone is playing with a similar strategy, you should make sure that you won't lose to them, while still being able to deal with people who are bringing a strategy that in theory would counter your strategy.

4) Being Where you need to be: this is kind of an offshoot of mobility, but important enough that it warrants its own section. If you have a melta vet squad (or say a Fire Dragon squad) not in a transport, you better have a very good reason.for this, because for the most part these need to be in a very specific spot to be effective in their job. Make sure you set up each unit that specializes in something to be able to be where they need to be to get that job done. This also extends to the troop thing above. You need to be able to take objectives. even if you can take a very far forward objective, but your 2 squads of 5 Dire Avengers get shot off the 2 home objectives tehy're sitting on, and you have no way of taking those, you might as well have not even had them there at all, because you aren't getting them anyway. You need to make sure you can have what you need in the right spot at the right time.

5) Type of models: You need to consider what type of list you are running (and as such what will destroy you for that). The few broad types that come to my mind are: Mech (lots of vehicles/transports in the av 10-12 range or well in orks case they can use Trukks (av 14 front with much weaker sides)), Infantry (can be in the form of gunline, horde, assualt, outflanking/deepstriking, mobile, etc.), Flying Circus (meaning lots of flying MCs), Nidzilla (usually referring to having a lot of MCs usually not many flying but still a lot of heavy hitters), Biker, Air force, Deathstar, and Balanced. This is not a complete list, but covers most of the general broad categories that you see most lists fall into. Each of these are good for different reasons and are bad in other circumstances. Be aware of which one you are running and how people anticipate you using it, and what their fears/worries are along with their hopes/dreams (by this i mean things like: "oh man I hope he doesn't move there to charge that one unit" or "oh please let him not notice that, so that i can turbo boost -> torrent flamer with my Nightspinner with a Crystal Targeting Matrix"

You need to know not only what you want to happen inside of your strategy and list type, but also your opponents.

6) Toughness and Armor: Low Toughness, Bad Armor = lots of dead guys even if throwing paper ninja stars or flashlights will wreck these. Make sure you have a way of either getting them into or keeping them in cover to be effective. Usually this means an Aegis. ORKS IGNORE THIS. Low Toughness, good armor: Stay in cover as much as you can. You are more surviveable, but there are lots of things that can hurt 3+ or 2+ armor, and they will do a lot of wounds since you are low Toughness. High Toughness, Bad Save: for some reason certain Daemons seem to fall into this category, This just gives you more options of what you can essentially ignore, even if you have bad saves. If you're toughness 5 or greater and you're fighting guard, their str 3 guns even if they HIT 20 times are only making you roll 3-4 saves. High Toughness, Good Save, single wound: These are expensive, but also fragile in a sense. a good starcannon volley or plasma can really wreck your day, so make sure not too much of this can be brought to bear on this unit, since usually these squads are 200+ points for like 5 models and each wound loses you 40+ points. High risk, but can also be very effective for certain situations. Multiwound: These are the best. The reason Nobz are so good is because of this. They aren't "better" than Terminators, but if you only get 3 wounds through them, as opposed to 2 on TH/SS Termies, the damage output of the Nobz squad is only lessened by 1 attacking model, vs the 2 model damage output of the Termies. you are paying in lots of points for those extra wounds, so make them count.
NOTE: if something has an invul save, cover isn't nearly as useful unless its an aegis or you're planning on going to ground.

7) Hull Points/AV: the reason why people say Dark eldar are made of paper is twofold: 1) open topped and low AV. 2) two hull points on venoms. The open topped used to be a much greater hinderance in 5th when everyone relied on vehicles exploding to kill them, and you couldn't "glance to death" vehicles. Mainly now though its the lack of Hull points coupled with AV 10 on all sides. This was the same for War Walkers had in the previous eldar codex, until they got cheaper weapons and 5+ invul. This made them able to survive a little better, and also given that they're in a squad and usually very long range can make them deceptively hard to kill. These are things you need to not only take into account with your own forces, but also in terms of your target priority vs your opponent. For example: there is no point in shooting 20 str 4 shots at a Chimera with full hull points, if your 10 man marine squad is the only thing left to shoot, or is the only thing that can hit that. You are only going to average 2 glances. Sure maybe you'll be lucky and get more but you should always plan on getting less, unless you're desperate. But most of the time, you need to have a rough feel of whether your vehicle can survive a turn wherever you move it. If it cannot, but you know that if they would have to spend most of their shooting to do so, because of cover or something, that is a good move if you have other threats that you want to bring in. If you have a Land Raider on the table, you should know exactly where every single melta, lance, rocket, and lascannon is on the table every turn before and after you move, and where they can get to that turn. You guys get it. if not message me.

These are most of the facotors i take into consideration when building a list.

I generally choose a unit that interests me, and think about its capabilities and what roles it covers out of these. Then I fill in the gaps with the rest of my list. always checking back versus that. The key is synergy though. You can't rely on that one unit you like, so synergy needs to be between the other units too. Do not leave anything in your list that can be ignored. If you look at your list, you should be terrified, thinking of facing it. You'll know how to beat it generally, but you should know its going to be tough. The way you do that is you look unit by unit and go: would i be stoked to have someone bring that unit against me? Also ask "which part of that unit scares me the most?" (this meaning like it can soak fire and tear apart things in Assault, or the amount of shots that can be put out, etc.) if you have any points invested in not doing those particular things that make that unit scary or more survivable to be scary, drop those things immediately, unless you have a really really good justification that you have run by an experienced 40k player (the one guy in the group/store that always wins or people don't ask to play as much because they win a lot. There's a reason they win so much and its not because of their codex. Its because they know the ins and outs of not only their particular units in their army, but their codex ,and not just that but other codexes too. There is something that you just don't want to face in every codex, no matter which army you're using. They know not just those units but the not as obviously game changing units/abilities that those codexes have. If they give you the seal of approval on your choice that doesn't fit those guidelines, then you can TRY it. If it doesn't work that well, change it, but give it a few games so that you know you're used to using it right.

As far as your core list, that you build everything around. Do not get too attatched to the particulars of it. You can be attatched to the strategy, but not the specifics. For example: baron beastpack with farseer is excellent, but there are other mini-deathstar beatsticks that you can bring as DE/Eldar allies, that if you are going that route, you can CONSIDER if you find that particular one to be ineffective.

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so that took waaaaay longer than I thought it would to write and explain all that. Like 3 hours. Man I should write an essay on WH40k tactics if I'm ever in school again...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6294163.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6294163.page GMT Advice on how to approach List Building? PM me I kind of started on somthing but never finished it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6294398.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/565414/6294398.page GMT