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				<title>[SPOILER] Mathhammer and a fight from HH Unremembered Empire</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ This is all pure spoiler<br /> <br /> <div style="margin-top:5px; margin-bottom:10px;">
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So, in Unremembered Empire, Guilliman is caught in partial ceremonial plate and unarmed against a 10 man Alpha marine Killteam.  He lives, barely, so I'm a little curious how the mathhammer would play out on this.<br /> <br /> Assumptions for this case... treating the Alpha marines as 2 5 man Veteran Tactical Squads from the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(320);'>HH</span> book.  They get to go first, 1 has a power sword.  This is consistent with the load out they had in the book.  I'm giving them the first turn too.  I'm taking furious charge as both squad's SR and we're just going to ignore challenges (as they didn't seem to factor into the fight).  I'm also giving them preferred enemy, as that seems a reasonable boost for this "to kill a primarch" kill team<br /> <br /> For Guilliman, I'm giving him a "standard" stat line for a primarch<br /> <br /> WS7, BS6, S6, T6, W6, I6, A5, <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(82);'>LD</span> 10... but no special equipment and just a 4+ save (seems to fit what the armour would have been, shoulder pads, chest-plate, greaves, but no helmet, only one glove, does not seem to have been power armour).<br /> <br /> I'd give Guilliman cover saves, but doesn't really matter.  I'm also not playing out the fight exactly like it happened, just seeing, given the basic set up, if it should have been as close a fight as it seems.<br /> <br /> So, first round, the squads open up... that's 5 rapid fire bolters and 5 pistol shots (charging into <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(19);'>CC</span>), 15 shots, 13 hits, 1.3 wounds (so we'll say 1... Guilliman down to 5).  One of the squads charges... Guilliman gets hit 5 attacks, 3 hit, doing 1 wound (locked in combat with 4).  Those 4 get their 4 attacks each, 16 attacks, 9 hits, 1.9 wounds (Guilliman down to 3).  Guilliman fails <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(681);'>IWND</span>, on their turn he attacks again, killing 1 (locked with 3).  They've lost their charge bonus and <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(397);'>FC</span>.  .6 wounds, but we'll give Guilliman a break since I rounded up to 2 wounds last time.  His turn, kills one (locked with 2) and fails <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(681);'>IWND</span>, and then on their turn kills one (locked with 1), then on his turn kills the last one.  He's due to take a wound, put also passes <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(681);'>IWND</span> and has to face the last squad with 3 wounds left.<br /> <br /> So to stop the process... he'll pass one more <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(681);'>IWND</span>, but they have a <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(442);'>PS</span> and can shoot before charging.  Basically the book was right on.  This one comes right down to wire.  The book lets Guilliman loot bodies as he goes, so that's the only reason he should live.<br /> <br /> Well done Abnett and <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(39);'>FW</span>... book follows rules
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 15 Dec 2013 23:21:11]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Lobokai]]></author>
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				<title>[SPOILER] Mathhammer and a fight from HH Unremembered Empire</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Haha, Abnett's Primarchs are so weak.<br /> <br /> When they need to be I mean.<br /> <br /> This is the same Primarch who was ripping through dozens of armed Word Bearers with his bare hands, and after being sent into a near zero oxygen and gravity environment.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:04:28]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Void__Dragon]]></author>
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				<title>[SPOILER] Mathhammer and a fight from HH Unremembered Empire</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/7b6ea6c39a1ac2407f26ce917c72450e.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568462/6346760.page"><b>Void__Dragon wrote:</b></a><br/>Haha, Abnett's Primarchs are so weak.<br /> <br /> When they need to be I mean.<br /> <br /> This is the same Primarch who was ripping through dozens of armed Word Bearers with his bare hands, and after being sent into a near zero oxygen and gravity environment.</div></blockquote><br /> He must have caught Magnus' amnesia disease, where he forgets his capabilities when it's convenient to the plot. ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Mon, 16 Dec 2013 18:13:06]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Omegus]]></author>
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				<title>[SPOILER] Mathhammer and a fight from HH Unremembered Empire</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Obviously so.<br /> <br /> Graham McNeill is <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(72);'>IMO</span> the only writer who really is consistent about his portrayal of the Primarchs.<br /> <br /> Abnett's inconsistency has been noted, and ADB somehow had Lorgar both survive a Plasma Blast Gun and have his hand blown off by a bolter in the same book.<br /> <br /> Oh ADB, you so cray cray...]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, 17 Dec 2013 21:02:31]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Void__Dragon]]></author>
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				<title>[SPOILER] Mathhammer and a fight from HH Unremembered Empire</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Not saying that Abnett is consistent, but with the primarchs the kit does make the man.  A primarch in armor, with his shiny named weapons, is a beast.  Outside his armor, he's quite a bit less.<br /> <br /> Abnett seems to like a sort of "super-saiyan" mode in Primarch v Primarch fights (see Vulcan v Konrad or Russ vs Magnus).  While in beast mode they escalate to epic scale and otherwise are just 4+ Chapter Masters.  <br /> <br /> I can't help but think in TTG terms when reading the books, and all and all, most of the fights work out fine.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, 17 Dec 2013 21:30:25]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Lobokai]]></author>
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				<title>[SPOILER] Mathhammer and a fight from HH Unremembered Empire</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Russ didn't fight Magnus in any Abnett-written work.<br /> <br /> And Guilliman wasn't fully kitted out when he was punching the heads off of Word Bearers in Know No Fear with his bare hands.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, 17 Dec 2013 22:48:11]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Void__Dragon]]></author>
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				<title>[SPOILER] Mathhammer and a fight from HH Unremembered Empire</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Makes you think. Give him armor and weapons and he would slaughter that squad without taking a wound take them away and he's literally on the edge.<br /> <br /> <br /> <span style="font-size: 9px; line-height: normal;">Automatically Appended Next Post:</span><br /> <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/7b6ea6c39a1ac2407f26ce917c72450e.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568462/6351776.page"><b>Void__Dragon wrote:</b></a><br/>Russ didn't fight Magnus in any Abnett-written work.<br /> <br /> And Guilliman wasn't fully kitted out when he was punching the heads off of Word Bearers in Know No Fear with his bare hands.</div></blockquote><br /> Which is technically what he is doing here...]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, 17 Dec 2013 23:21:20]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ BaconUprising]]></author>
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				<title>[SPOILER] Mathhammer and a fight from HH Unremembered Empire</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Gully wasn't concerned about being able to deal damage to the Marines, when he got his hands on them he broke them like toys. He was concerned about catching a few bolt rounds with his face.<br /> <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/7b6ea6c39a1ac2407f26ce917c72450e.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568462/6351464.page"><b>Void__Dragon wrote:</b></a><br/>Obviously so.<br /> <br /> Graham McNeill is <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(72);'>IMO</span> the only writer who really is consistent about his portrayal of the Primarchs.<br /> <br /> Abnett's inconsistency has been noted, and ADB somehow had Lorgar both survive a Plasma Blast Gun and have his hand blown off by a bolter in the same book.<br /> <br /> Oh ADB, you so cray cray...</div></blockquote>To be fair, he took the Plasma Blast (twice) when putting all of his power towards generating a kine shield, which collapsed from the second blast. ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, 17 Dec 2013 23:22:59]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Omegus]]></author>
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				<title>[SPOILER] Mathhammer and a fight from HH Unremembered Empire</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Perhaps, but Angron's body withstood the kinetic impact of a friggin' Warhound trying to crush him. <br /> <br /> Yet the Space Wolves with their bolters can kill him apparently.<br /> <br /> lolADB.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, 17 Dec 2013 23:26:35]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Void__Dragon]]></author>
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				<title>[SPOILER] Mathhammer and a fight from HH Unremembered Empire</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ You'll get no argument from me there. He also dug through something like 300 meters of rock with the broken hafts of his axes.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, 17 Dec 2013 23:30:27]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Omegus]]></author>
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				<title>[SPOILER] Mathhammer and a fight from HH Unremembered Empire</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Angron vs a warhound in <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(19);'>cc</span>, dead warhound 7/8 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(123);'>str</span> 9 armourbane attacks... That's gonna hurt ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, 17 Dec 2013 23:36:56]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Formosa]]></author>
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				<title>[SPOILER] Mathhammer and a fight from HH Unremembered Empire</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/e997bad1777309939cdc6d9338a260b4.png" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568462/6351894.page"><b>Omegus wrote:</b></a><br/>You'll get no argument from me there. He also dug through something like 300 meters of rock with the broken hafts of his axes.</div></blockquote><br /> Which Lorgar then blasted through with his mind in far less time. My point being that when he was hit by the blastgun he was pretty mentally taxed after ripping thorough a Ultramarine battle line and then 300m of rock with his mind.<br /> <br /> <br /> <span style="font-size: 9px; line-height: normal;">Automatically Appended Next Post:</span><br /> <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/5fc866d985c125ea6fbb2d35ded1ea21.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568462/6351910.page"><b>Formosa wrote:</b></a><br/>Angron vs a warhound in <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(19);'>cc</span>, dead warhound 7/8 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(123);'>str</span> 9 armourbane attacks... That's gonna hurt </div></blockquote><br /> Angron vs Warhound Titan D weaponry = Dead Angron]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, 17 Dec 2013 23:46:07]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ BaconUprising]]></author>
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				<title>[SPOILER] Mathhammer and a fight from HH Unremembered Empire</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Angron has Eternal Warrior though.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, 17 Dec 2013 23:50:21]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Void__Dragon]]></author>
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				<title>[SPOILER] Mathhammer and a fight from HH Unremembered Empire</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568462/6351938.page"><b>BaconUprising wrote:</b></a><br/><blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/e997bad1777309939cdc6d9338a260b4.png" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568462/6351894.page"><b>Omegus wrote:</b></a><br/>You'll get no argument from me there. He also dug through something like 300 meters of rock with the broken hafts of his axes.</div></blockquote><br /> Which Lorgar then blasted through with his mind in far less time. My point being that when he was hit by the blastgun he was pretty mentally taxed after ripping thorough a Ultramarine battle line and then 300m of rock with his mind.<br /> <br /> </div></blockquote><br /> And yet in another thread I have people arguing with me that psykers aren't that powerful. ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, 17 Dec 2013 23:50:31]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Omegus]]></author>
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				<title>[SPOILER] Mathhammer and a fight from HH Unremembered Empire</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/e997bad1777309939cdc6d9338a260b4.png" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568462/6351948.page"><b>Omegus wrote:</b></a><br/><blockquote><div><a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568462/6351938.page"><b>BaconUprising wrote:</b></a><br/><blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/e997bad1777309939cdc6d9338a260b4.png" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568462/6351894.page"><b>Omegus wrote:</b></a><br/>You'll get no argument from me there. He also dug through something like 300 meters of rock with the broken hafts of his axes.</div></blockquote><br /> Which Lorgar then blasted through with his mind in far less time. My point being that when he was hit by the blastgun he was pretty mentally taxed after ripping thorough a Ultramarine battle line and then 300m of rock with his mind.<br /> <br /> </div></blockquote><br /> And yet in another thread I have people arguing with me that psykers aren't that powerful. </div></blockquote><br /> Did I ever say psykers aren't that powerful? No I just said they can't crush primarchs like bugs with their mind. Anyway it's totally irrelevant to the point I just made so...yeah...<br /> <br /> <br /> <span style="font-size: 9px; line-height: normal;">Automatically Appended Next Post:</span><br /> <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/7b6ea6c39a1ac2407f26ce917c72450e.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568462/6351946.page"><b>Void__Dragon wrote:</b></a><br/>Angron has Eternal Warrior though.</div></blockquote><br /> The fact that it ignores any of his saves goes a long way towards killing him quicker.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 18 Dec 2013 00:01:44]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ BaconUprising]]></author>
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