<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Returning to 40K after a long absence, want to avoid being Cheesy/OP (Necrons)"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Returning to 40K after a long absence, want to avoid being Cheesy/OP (Necrons)

Now, I've not played 40K properly since about 2005 (save for a one off game a few years back). I got into the hobby in '96/'97 when 2nd ed. was on the way out, and spent my teenage years playing 3rd ed., though I've always been primarily a Fantasy/Specialist Games player.
Having a read through the new 'dex I was quite taken with the new background material and the new model range. A quick read through the internet though has given me the impression that there are a lot of really OP choices in the Necron army, and a look at the rules section did worry me a little, given the absolutely ridiculous power some of the wargear can unleash.

Though having a look at my bro's Guard & Chaos 'dex, all 40k seems to be going a bit crazy with the amount of damage weapons can put out - especially when you consider they're charging £20 for 5 Dire Avengers. The economic cost of putting your expensively assembled army on the table and then having it quickly and systematically removed just seems more insane than ever.

So my question is: are there any units I should really avoid using (please don't say everything!), so that my few remaining friends don't think I've turned into an insane power gamer over Christmas?

(Apologies if I've put this in the wrong forum btw)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/569940/6373868.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/569940/6373868.page GMT Re:Returning to 40K after a long absence, want to avoid being Cheesy/OP (Necrons)
1-2 fliers = ok
6 fliers = cheese

One of the cheesier things in the wargear section is Mindshackle Scarabs. I always take them, but only choose to use them if I'm losing badly, or if my opponent is being a donkeycave.

It's not what you play, it's how you play it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/569940/6373906.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/569940/6373906.page GMT Returning to 40K after a long absence, want to avoid being Cheesy/OP (Necrons)
People will line up to play your Necron Air Force led by MSS Lords riding in their drive-by mobiles because it means they don't have to deal with Revenants, Riptides, Wave Serpents, and rerollable deathstars.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/569940/6373994.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/569940/6373994.page GMT Returning to 40K after a long absence, want to avoid being Cheesy/OP (Necrons) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/569940/6374002.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/569940/6374002.page GMT Returning to 40K after a long absence, want to avoid being Cheesy/OP (Necrons) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/569940/6374009.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/569940/6374009.page GMT Returning to 40K after a long absence, want to avoid being Cheesy/OP (Necrons) 40k is a fast paced, fluid game where units are getting deleted starting turn 1. It's different compared to fantasy. Enjoy the instant action and pew pew! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/569940/6374012.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/569940/6374012.page GMT Returning to 40K after a long absence, want to avoid being Cheesy/OP (Necrons) OP , everything has a counter or a way of playing against it , so its usually just players not willing to put in the effort to get better that usually complain about things being OP ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/569940/6374071.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/569940/6374071.page GMT Returning to 40K after a long absence, want to avoid being Cheesy/OP (Necrons) MSS - the former is annoying because not every army has good anti-air (if you play with Forge World this is no longer as true and you don't have to worry so much but I would still avoid more than 5 flyers) and it's frustrating to feel like you sent a whole turn doing basically nothing because the few shots that managed to hit couldn't penetrate the opponent's armour. The latter is annoying because it so cheaply and effectively neuters powerful CC characters - they aren't necessarily overpowered but it just feels lame when Abaddon the Despoiler beats himself to death without doing anything because you rolled fairly average in a leadership test.

In addition, if you decide to play some escalation (I know what you're thinking - super-heavies in 40k is too crazy - but they aren't bad at all if you do them correctly and try to be fluffy rather than gaming them and they add a really fun, epic element to games they take part in) I would defintiely avoid anything with strength D - that means the Pylon, and the 2 destroyer options the Transcendant C'tan can throw out. Destroyer weapons simly aren't fun to play against - non-super heavy vehicles suffer an automatic pen on a 1 and explode on a 2+ (be they Land Raider or Rhino) and single-wound infantry models are removed on a 2+ with no saves of any kind, be they terminators or grots. a Chapter Master takes D3+1 wounds on a 2+, so you don't have to roll fantastically to one-shot characters either. They just aren't a good addition to the game because of the way they can kill anything effortlessly no matter how durable. But like I said, aside from that Lords of War aren't too overwhelming, especially if you know they're coming.

I would just like to say in relation to your point about the Dire Avengers - yes, the hobby has gotten a lot more expensive. I myself am a student and I can't really afford to play, but I like discussing the game any working out theory so I still enjoy browsing dakka. If you would like to see some examples of Lords of War taken in non-overwhelming ways, I recently posted a thread in the army lists forum with a couple of fluffier lists I threw together just to sort of show what you can do with escalation you may want to check out. I think the Dire Avengers are probably the worst example of the price increase but it's very evident. The plus side to it, however, is that relatively speaking Forge World stuff has gotten a lot more affordable (I'm not sure if FW was even really around when you last played, but they do some fantastic sculpts) and if your local meta finds it agreeable it's a great way to level the playing field with some of the weaker armies and inject a bit of variety into the game. There's probably more room for abuse in 40k now than there has been previously, what with rerollable 2++ invulnerable saves and underpriced flyer spam, but provided you have a good group of people who aren't in a rush to find the most broken combination possible you'll have a lot of fun with the game. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/569940/6374111.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/569940/6374111.page GMT Re:Returning to 40K after a long absence, want to avoid being Cheesy/OP (Necrons) Apoc with your Necron army, even though you can technically now take one of them as a regular 40k choice)

The two big ones are Nightscythes and Wraiths. The most competitive Necron List out there right now maxes out its Fast Attack on 18 Wraiths and puts all of its troops (5 man warrior squads) into 4-5 Nightscythes, which zoom onto the board and drop off passengers turn 5 to claim objectives. The Wraiths get in everybody's faces and kill stuff. Now, both of those selections have a place in a Necron list, but if you don't want to be too competitive, try to avoid doing what this list does. For example, a single 6 man wraith squad with one DLord leading them is fine, but 18 with 2 DLords is a bit too much for some. Similarly, 2 Nightscythes, one of which carries Deathmarks + Harbinger of Despair, the other of which carries 10 Immortals, is still a good strategy, but much less 'standard netlist.'

The only other choice that might give you pause is Annihilation Barges, but I don't see many people complaining that they're broken. They are good, and most competitive lists run 3 of them, but even a non-competitive Necron player should probably have at least one, preferably two. They're just a rock solid choice that puts out a lot of firepower for a reasonable cost. You also get a Necron Overlord/Lord with the box, and the option to run it as a Command Barge, which can be very fun.

Other than that, there's not too much that's really 'broken' per se. Mindshackle Scarabs are really good, and could get complaints depending on what your opponents are running, but they're not broken in my reckoning. In fact, they're one of the only tools beyond weight of fire that Necrons have against Monstrous Creatures.

Everything else can generally be taken in reasonable quantities and be okay.

For Reference, the Necron Netlist that you should be avoiding looks something like this:

Destroyer Lord w/ MSS, Res Orb
Destroyer Lord w/ MSS, Res Orb

5 man warrior squad, in Nightscythe
5 man warrior squad, in Nightscythe
5 man warrior squad, in Nightscythe
5 man warrior squad, in Nightscythe

6 Wraiths, one or two with Whip Coils
6 Wraiths, one or two with Whip Coils
6 Wraiths, one or two with Whip Coils

Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge

Don't do this, and you'll be fine.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/569940/6374202.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/569940/6374202.page GMT Returning to 40K after a long absence, want to avoid being Cheesy/OP (Necrons)
 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
You can't cheese with Necrons these days. Tau, Eldar, and Daemons have made sure of that.

People will line up to play your Necron Air Force led by MSS Lords riding in their drive-by mobiles because it means they don't have to deal with Revenants, Riptides, Wave Serpents, and rerollable deathstars.


Urk, are the other lists really that crazy now?
There are so many terms I don't understand these days, been out of 40k far too long. What are deathstars?

And what is this Escalation that people keep mentioning? Is it bringing Apoc stuff into standard 40k?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/569940/6374234.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/569940/6374234.page GMT Returning to 40K after a long absence, want to avoid being Cheesy/OP (Necrons)
Escalation is a supplement that allows certain Apocalypse-grade units to be taken in 'normal' 40k points ranges. There is a considerable amount of argument over whether this is an expansion or a core rules update. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/569940/6374255.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/569940/6374255.page GMT Returning to 40K after a long absence, want to avoid being Cheesy/OP (Necrons)
 grantosjones wrote:
 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
You can't cheese with Necrons these days. Tau, Eldar, and Daemons have made sure of that.

People will line up to play your Necron Air Force led by MSS Lords riding in their drive-by mobiles because it means they don't have to deal with Revenants, Riptides, Wave Serpents, and rerollable deathstars.


Urk, are the other lists really that crazy now?
There are so many terms I don't understand these days, been out of 40k far too long. What are deathstars?

And what is this Escalation that people keep mentioning? Is it bringing Apoc stuff into standard 40k?


A deathstar is basically a big, expensive unit that takes up 30-50% of an army's points. I believe they gained popularity in 5th edition and thought they fall in and out of popularity as new books are released, there is usually at least one good one. Right now there are two very notable ones and then some more minor examples. The most notable is probably the Screamerstar - 4 Tzeentch Heralds (which count as 1 HQ choice because of a Chaos Daemons special rule) with usually 6-10 Screamers and an item called the Grimoire of True Names. Basically, the Heralds are all mastery level 3 psykers with a high probability of getting a power which gives them a 4+ invulnerable save. The Grimoire buff this by 2 on a 3+ to a 2+ invulnerable save - Fateweaver is usually included in an army with the Screamerstar because he allows 1 re-roll per turn, very handy if the Grimoire fails. Because they are Daemons of Tzeentch, the Screamerstar automatically re-rolls armour save results of a one - giving them a re-rollable 2+ invulnerable save. Additionally, this only requires a small fraction of the psychic power the heralds can unleash, so they can fire off a barrage of psychic shooting or support the rest of the army with blessings. The unit is very strong because it is essentially invincible - the only realistic way to beat it is to try to ground and kill Fateweaver and hope they fail the Grimoire check or to tarpit it - but they are all jetbikes so tarpitting is easier said than done. The other notable death star is the Seer Council - 1-2 Farseers, 6-10 Warlocks and 0-1 Baron somethingorother allied from the Dark Eldar codex. The Baron has a 2+ invulnerable until it fails - with Fortune this can be rerolled, so on average he must be wounded 36 times for it to fail. If he is at the front of the unit, every wound goes on him until he dies, allowing him to take a lot of fire. The unit can also have a 2+ Cover Save and 2+ Armour save with the right psychic powers, also rerollable. It doesn't shoot amazingly but is very good at multi-assaulting, focussing on a fragile unit and using morale and high initiative to sweep several others. Most people think the Seer Council is slightly stronger, but it is more vulnerable to things like Grey Knight Mindstrike Missiles - (almost) everyone is a Psyker, so any anti-psyker measures do massive damage, whereas the Screamerstar can tank anti-psyker shots on the Screamers, which are not psykers - just decent assault units - and keep the heralds safe in the middle of the unit. There are some other options like the Farsight Bomb with Tigurius or the Centurion Grav-star but they aren't as potent. A lot of deathstars in 6th rely on allies to work - for example, Gate of Infinity from Tigurius allows the Farisght Bomb of Commander Farsight and 7 Suits to Deep Strike anywhere within 24", and Farsight has a special rule that means the unit doesn't scatter when they deep strike, so they can move 24" and then put precise shots wherever they like. This isn't nearly as hated as the big two, though, because it doesn't feature rerollable 2+ saves.

In a nutshell, 6th is the age of Monstrous Creatures, Flyers, Fortifications and Psychic Powers. The Tau have the Riptide, a massive Battlesuit, the Eldar have the Wraithknight, a bigger Wraithlord, the Grey Knights have the Dreadknight, a wierd thing nobody seems to like the design of, etc. Tyranids will get some terrifying new monstrous creatures next month when they get updated I'm sure.

Escalation is essentially super-heavies in 40k, yes. Due in part to 6th's hull point system, it isn't actually too bad for the most part - but there are some exceptions, the biggest being Destroyer weapons. If you play it you absolutely must use the additional Forge World update (which is official, but some people have houseruled out because they don'tlike Forge World (that's a long, long sotry, I won't go into it further)) or it's biased in favour of the armies that get super-heavies to the exclusion of those that don't. Technically it is an official part of vanilla 40k and doesn't require permission, but in reality nobody is going to want to face a Reaver titan unless they are very prepared - even if the model is gorgeous. Most tournaments are looking at restrictions or bans on it. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/569940/6374270.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/569940/6374270.page GMT Returning to 40K after a long absence, want to avoid being Cheesy/OP (Necrons) 40k seems to have gotten a little bit mental. Thanks for helping me out though!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/569940/6374280.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/569940/6374280.page GMT Returning to 40K after a long absence, want to avoid being Cheesy/OP (Necrons)
A lot of people, myself included, seem to come to the conclusion that if your playing this game you've *gotta* play it at tournaments and stuff. Like, just because.

But seriously, even without the *most* broken stuff the game is still rubbish in a competitive setting. GW's been upgunning it slowly over the years, so that now people will look at the Necron Doomsday Ark, which literally has perfect range, perfect strength, perfect AP, and best blast size, and go "meh, thats reasonable"

We've been 2+ing models off of the board for years now. It's only become a problem though because the maximumcheesefest armies have to do it too now, not just the rest of us]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/569940/6374305.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/569940/6374305.page GMT