<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "3 2k Templar lists, from Pods to Tide"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/14.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net 3 2k Templar lists, from Pods to Tide Drop Pod list:

Helbrecht
Honor Guard- 9 Marines, Relic Blade, Chapter Banner, mixed Mauls and an Ax or 2, Drop Pod

2 Crusader Squads- 8 Initiates, 2 Neophytes, Flamer, Power Ax, Sword Brother w/ Power Maul, Drop Pods

Crusader Squad- 7 Initiates, 3 Neophytes, Flamer, Power Ax, Sword Brother w/ Maul, Drop Pods

2 Crusader Squads- 5 Initiates w/ Plasma Cannon and Plasma Gun

2 Ironclads with Heavy Flamer, Drop Pods

2 Storm Talons w/ Skyhammers

Landspeeder w/ Multi Melta and Heavy Flamer

Other than the 2 small shooty Crusader squads, everything is Deep Striking. The opening turn will bring down the 2 Ironclads, and either the Honor Guard or a Crusader squad depending on the circumstances. I took the Landspeeder because I had about 70 points to spend, and it can make for a good sacrificial Deep Strike sucker punch.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Second, a more Mixed Approach, with more boots on the ground:

Helbrecht
Honor Guard- 8 Marines, Chapter Banner, 2 Relic Blades, Pod

2 Ironclads w/ Heavy Flamer, Pods

2 Crusader Squads- 8 Initiates, 6 Neophytes, Sword Brother w/ Power Maul, Power Ax, Flamer

Crusader Squad- 7 Initiates, 7 Neophytes, Sword Brother w/ Power Maul, Power Ax, Flamer

2 Vindicators w/ Siege Shield

2 Storm Talon w/ Skyhammer

A hammer and anvil sort of approach. My biggest concern is that all the Troops are fitted for CC, so Objectives are a bit tricky. That, and foot slogging is instant death against super hardcore lists with Heldrake spam and the like.

Finally, a more classic Tide list:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Helbrecht
Crusader Squad- 10 Initiates, 8 Neophytes, Sword Brother w/ Maul, Power Ax, Melta

3 Crusader Squads- 8 Initiates, 6 Neophytes, Sword Brother w/Maul, Power Ax, Melta

2 Vindicators w/ Siege Shield

3 Storm Talons w/ Skyhammer

Stormraven w/ TL Assault Cannons, TL Multi Melta, Hurricane Bolters, Armor

Templates will be brutal against this, but there's a lot of anti tank in the sky and the Vindis help keep on the pressure on the ground.

Mind you, I don't tour the Tournament circuit or anything, so I don't need a super duper unbeatable cheese list of beardiness. But, I feel my Boys in Black should at least get a good list to compensate for having their codex snatched away

No Pity! No Remorse! No Fear! No Idea Which List to Use! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6584964.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6584964.page GMT 3 2k Templar lists, from Pods to Tide
If you go for number 3 try to go dual FOC and add 3 chaplains on foot so that your blobs don't break. It will also make them that much more brutal in CC.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6585447.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6585447.page GMT 3 2k Templar lists, from Pods to Tide ). I'm not quite sure where I would be able to draw the points from. Even downgrading Helbrecht to the Emperor's Champion (who is quite a bit less useful), reducing the big blob to the size of the other three, and dropping Siege Shields from the Vindicators would only give me enough points for 1 Chaplain. The one big point sink is the Stormraven, but that brings 1) a lot of very needed anti-tank and anti-flyer firepower and 2) helps bring in a Talon for free as an escort.

Not that I wouldn't love three Chaplains to play with, of course. Chaplains are as Templary as can be, even if the vanilla version is absolute crap compared to what we had in our old dex. But I just can't imagine how to fit them into the list without a big sacrifice.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6585543.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6585543.page GMT 3 2k Templar lists, from Pods to Tide ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6591348.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6591348.page GMT 3 2k Templar lists, from Pods to Tide
 firepower wrote:
Anyone else care to throw in their 2 cents? I've got $$$ burning a hole in my pocket and I'm not sure what models to invest in


I would invest in some Land Raider Crusaders bruthah]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6591656.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6591656.page GMT 3 2k Templar lists, from Pods to Tide List 1 will get you where you need to be much much faster and puts your army much closer to CC where you want to be.

Another thing to consider instead of the landspeeder in that list would be a scout sniper squad with some cloaks.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6592032.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6592032.page GMT 3 2k Templar lists, from Pods to Tide
Of course footslogging squads will likely be subject to multiple turns of shooting, but have the advantage of extra bodies to soak up wounds. Some units like Vindicators, Russes, Heldrakes and other big templates can cut swathes in big footslogging squads, which is the really major drawback. Drop Podding in the backfield doesn't totally mitigate that problem, but helps a bit at least.

Basically, these are just the woes of a close combat loving chapter surviving in 6th edition's gun loving environment.

There are always the blessed Landraider Crusaders, but they cost so much that you lose much needed numerical superiority. Crusader Squads are above average in close combat, but not by an incredible margin like proper assault units from other dexes (or those god damned beardy cheesebeast Gray Hunters), so body count is important.

Aside from an extra Power Weapon, the Crusader Squad's biggest advantage is in winning challenges to hurt the enemy's LD and hopefully cause them to break, and then using Crusader to run them down and wipe them out. Aside from that, they're no better than a typical Assault Squad marine in close combat. It's one of the reasons I take Helbrecht, so that the 1 turn army wide buff can potentially tip the scales a bit more in my favor when it really counts.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6593543.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6593543.page GMT 3 2k Templar lists, from Pods to Tide Cc, if they get to cc at all they will be so widdled down that the numbers they started with won't matter.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6593750.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6593750.page GMT Re:3 2k Templar lists, from Pods to Tide http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6597320.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6597320.page GMT 3 2k Templar lists, from Pods to Tide
Tweaked it a bit for another option, to add some better punch to the drop assault.

Helbrecht
8 Honor Guard w/ Standard, Relic Blade, Drop Pod

Chaplain
9 Vanguard Sword Brethren, Relic Blade, Drop Pod

2 Crusader Squads: 7 Initiate, 3 Neophyte, Melta, Power Ax, Sword Brother w/ Power Maul, Drop Pod

2 Crusader Squads: 5 Initiates, Flamer, Plasma Cannon

2 Ironclads w/ Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod

2 Stormtalon w/ Skyhammers

So basically, a Crusader Squad doesn't hit especially hard in CC. So, I swapped one out for a Vanguard Squad with a Chaplain. The Sarge gets the Relic Blade to really drive home the Accept Any Challenge, but the rest of the squad is basic BP/CCW to keep it cheap. They are relying largely on weight of attacks and the Chaplain's buff to win a fight.

In exchange, I had to take out one Honor Guard, turn the two drop squads to 7/3 rather than 8/2, and drop the Landspeeder. I also turned the minimum squads' Plasma Guns to Flamers, and upgraded the drop squads' Flamers to Meltas. The Plasma Cannon/Flamer combo is a bit unorthodox, but the idea is to pour on the Templates against (what will likely be) larger squads trying to knock them off objectives.

I could save more points by turning the minimum squads to Snipers, but Snipers have no business in a Templar army! To hell with such heresy!

One big concern of mine is that the list has very little anti-vehicle power. Just the Stormtalons, the meltas in the Crusader Squads and on the Ironclads, Mauls and Krak Grenades.

So which is better, List 1 or List 1.1? Oh, and thanks for the input so far! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6597748.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6597748.page GMT 3 2k Templar lists, from Pods to Tide I say do that one. That one lone landspeeder was destined to get wrecked before it could do much, and I think the vanguards are going to do pretty well.

OR, swap the vanguards for a command squad with a bunch of meltaguns and put Helbrecht with them. and put the chaplain with the honor guard.

This way the honor guard gets all the re-rolls in cc, and Helbrecht gets fnp when he goes in to combat.

But thats just another idea for the brainstorm. Still think 1.1 is the better list.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6598709.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6598709.page GMT Re:3 2k Templar lists, from Pods to Tide
Take one inquisitor give him hammerhand and rad grenades and you are set to tear units apart
And I usually will take a chapter master with the burning blade he defiantly tips the tide in cc

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6601823.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6601823.page GMT 3 2k Templar lists, from Pods to Tide
They can be nasty little buggers, especially with that book. But I would never ally my Templars to a psycher.

As for the Chapter Master, an Honor Guard packs so much punch that an uber HQ isn't quite as necessary in my mind. Also, Helbrecht can buff the whole army for a turn, rather than simply making one already killy squad even killier. But point for point, I will say that a Chapter Master is better than Helbrecht in most any circumstance. All our ICs are painfully overcosted, and for some reason Helbrecht, Master of one of the greatest fleet based chapters in the Imperium, doesn't get Orbital Bombardment.

This new Dex is a pack of lies and bullcrap, but I will bend it to my will!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6601853.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6601853.page GMT 3 2k Templar lists, from Pods to Tide
 firepower wrote:
Unless I'm mistaken (totally possible), Inquisitors can't share transports, which would include Drop Pods. Quite a drawback there.

They can be nasty little buggers, especially with that book. But I would never ally my Templars to a psycher.

As for the Chapter Master, an Honor Guard packs so much punch that an uber HQ isn't quite as necessary in my mind. Also, Helbrecht can buff the whole army for a turn, rather than simply making one already killy squad even killier. But point for point, I will say that a Chapter Master is better than Helbrecht in most any circumstance. All our ICs are painfully overcosted, and for some reason Helbrecht, Master of one of the greatest fleet based chapters in the Imperium, doesn't get Orbital Bombardment.

This new Dex is a pack of lies and bullcrap, but I will bend it to my will!


I never thought about the orbital bombardment thing, That is really lame that he doesnt get it. Its like it gets worse everyday what GW did, storywise to BT. In regards to the Inquisitor though, you dont have to take mastery levels, with some of them anyway. Read the profile on Inquisitor Typhus. If he doesn't belong with the BT, then I don't know who does.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6601934.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6601934.page GMT Re:3 2k Templar lists, from Pods to Tide While I support list 1 the most since I feel that drop pods are extremely effective, I'm not the biggest fan of any of your three lists.
My lists are totally different though, so I figure I might as well post one of mine to see if you like any of it.
2K points:

HQ
Chapter Master: Shield Eternal, Power Fist, Artificer Armor
Plain Chaplain

Troops:
4x Crusader squads with 5 Initiates armed with bolters and a lascannon
Crusader squad with 5 initiates armed with bolters, a grav gun, a plasma cannon, and a combi-grav and melta bombs on the Sword Brother
Crusader squad with 10 Initiates and 4 Neophytes with all CC weapons alongside a flamer, a power fist, and a power sword on the Sword Brother mounted in a Land Raider Crusader

Elites:
Venerable Dread with a multimelta in a drop pod

Fast Attack:
Squad of 2 attack bikes with multimeltas
Landspeeder Typhoon with Heavy Bolter
Landspeeder with 2 multimeltas

Heavy Support:
Devastator Squad with 5 initiates armed with 2 plasma cannons and 2 lascannons
Predator with TL Lascannon and Lascannon Sponsons

While obviously there's nothing less fluffy than lascannons, this setup has been working wonders for me for a while now. My AT and AP2 is distributed into almost every single unit, and my lack of skyfire is made up for by massed lascannons (hopefully). Standard plan is that both HQ's join the mob squad in the LRC and move up the field, standard las squads hide in cover around my entire deployment zone, and the devastator squad camps in cover in the center with the kitted out crusader squad nearby on an objective. Typhoon works as long distance annoyance, Melta bikes get close and personal, Melta speeder deepstrikes, and the Dread is the much needed turn 1 distraction.
Now this list would have a terrible time with a horde army, but there are none in my meta so I'm clearly taking full advantage of that.

I used to run larger squads, but I found that having two large squads struggled with holding objectives or a defining purpose, so I scrubbed them for smaller squads in general.

From my lists what I would probably add to any of yours is a LRC (The most Templar thing you can own and it does a great job), Devastators or a Lascannon squad or two since you lack ranged AT, and either bikes or landspeeders as a fast and effective annoyance. The biggest changes I would make to your list would be to change Helbrecht and the Honor Guard to a Chapter Master in a Crusader Squad, but on a fun perspective you're making a good choice. Also, I always substitute neophytes for initiates when possible, the 4 points per model you pay get you some serious benefits.
One other alternative I would give you is to run a fast army, with your large amount of flyers you could easily field several landspeeders and bikes and have a nicely themed list that would probably play well to boot.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6602183.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6602183.page GMT 3 2k Templar lists, from Pods to Tide
No matter how GW bastardizes their fluff or cripples the assault phase, Templars will always be an assault oriented army. They didn't have Kill Them All, Accept Any Challenge, Righteous Zeal and the Emperor's Champion so that the boys in black could sit back in min/max squads like a bunch of Ultramarines. It disgusts me that the Crusader Squad's biggest advantage over other Marines isn't CC potential, but the potential to still do 5 man Las/Plas squads.

I can make some compromise, by admitting that Tide is a thing of the past. It's fluffy, but it's not even fun to play when you go through all the trouble of putting the army down only to take off 10 models at a time to Heldrake spam and the like. But Throne help me, I will not allow my Templars to become Vanilla Marines in black armor.

The three most fluffy choices available to Templars are Landraider Crusader Spam, Black Tide, and Drop Pod assault. Drop Pods are arguably the least fluffy of the three, but often more effective. We've already discussed Tide. As for LRC spam, I haven't been able to write a list with them that I felt would work. They're just so damned expensive, and Crusader Squads aren't strong enough in CC to justify such a pricey ride, so you (practically) have to put even more expensive squads in them. Basically, instead of Drop Pods, put Helbrecht's Squad and the Chaplain's squad into a pair of LRCs, and you have around 1300 points right there. You can shave off about 200 by replacing the two squads with Crusader Squads, but they won't hit nearly hard enough to justify their rides' prices.

The speedy vanguard list is also a semi-fluffy option, but I get annoyed writing those lists, too. Fast Attack is a very crowded slot, but most damning of all, not taking any Devastators or the like leaves me lacking in anti-air, which practically forces my hand into taking Talons. I could do the Bike HQ for Bike Troops deal, but I'll leave that cheesy nonsense to the Scars, thank you very much.

Now then, anyway, I would like to be able to add some long range punch to Pod List 1.1, but the problem is in points. I simply haven't got anywhere to draw them from, without crippling something else. If I draw from the Pod Squads any further, the whole point of trying for a CC-Pod list will be lost, because they won't be strong enough to go through the trouble. I (begrudgingly) need the two small shooty squads simply because the rest of the army is so dedicated to attacking that I haven't got anyone else to worry about objectives. I need the Ironclads to add durability and a good opening punch to the Pod assault, and I already went over why I need Skytalons. A couple of Predators or better yet a Stormraven would help fill the Anti-Vehicle role delightfully, I just can't see where else to draw points from.

If anything, that sort of approach sounds more like what I attempted in List 2. But I'll tinker today and see if I can't come up with a Drop Assault list that has some good long-reaching AT in it.

@ Icculus- Oh, I don't disagree that some Inquisitors would feel fairly cozy alongside the Templars (even though the Templars do not view the Emperor as a God), I was just pointing out the suggested one was a psycher But am I wrong that Inquisitors cannot join Marines in their transports? That's a hugely limiting factor for an assault force, especially in Pods or LRCs.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6603125.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6603125.page GMT 3 2k Templar lists, from Pods to Tide
Option A.
Blood Angels Allied detachment.
5-10 Hammernators
Cheapest BA hq choice
Sanguinary Priest or corbulo
Inquisitor with the book.

Option B
5-10 BT hammernators
Inquisitor with the book
Your favorite melee HQ choice/choices
Helbrecht and a bare chaplain make sense

Option A gives you one of the better ways to footslog Terminators. They all have FNP, they get scout because of the book and can really get where they want to be without a landraider. Problem is: this isnt using the BT codex. Solution: Paint them BT anyway and just identify the bases differently. Fluff-wise it feels like Black Templar. Sending a huge squad of Terminator Honored Sword Brethren lead by a chaplain/priest who grants them the ability to wade on through wounds (FNP). That to me just screams BT. You can even attach Helbrecht. since he is part of the BA unit, by rules he benefits from the FNP.

Option B.
You still get the scout maneuver, but are now relying more on the 3+ invuln. They can guard your HQ as they get across the field and in to CC. But this does use the BT codex, so it has that going for it, gives you the better run move.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6603261.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6603261.page GMT 3 2k Templar lists, from Pods to Tide really wanna throw that unit at will probably have the sense and speed to stay clear.

On the BA idea, I don't believe Helbrecht gains FnP by joining the unit. It's a big rules-gray-area. But I'm against playing BT as anything but BT anyway, so it's not my problem to worry about

Still fooling around with LRC spam lists, but I'm not getting around the issue of points. If you put anything worth such a level of attention inside the LRC, the total sum of points between the two becomes unacceptable or downright crippling. Even filling it to the brim with a simple Crusader Squad is unreasonably pricey, especially for what a C. Squad can manage. The LRC itself doesn't even have a whole lot of offensive potential, like you could get out of a notably cheaper Stormraven.

The other option is to take only tiny squads inside of the LRC, simply to exploit the Dedicated Transport rule. This would only make sense if I had 3 other Heavy Support units to worry about. A totally different sort of list, there. Having a tiny squad inside an LRC doesn't really feel Templary anyway, it just feels like a cheap gimmick. As funny as 3 LRC and 3 Stormravens in one list could be, it's not what I would want ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6603690.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6603690.page GMT 3 2k Templar lists, from Pods to Tide LRCs and two stormtalons.

3x 5 initiates w/ sword brother in LRC w/ MM = 1020
2x stormtalon w/ skyhammer = 250
Chapter Master w/ artificer armor, eternal shield, burning blade = 255
7 honor guard w/ banner, relic blade in LRC = 570
1995
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6603738.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6603738.page GMT 3 2k Templar lists, from Pods to Tide
But a tiny bit better-

Chaplain
6 Initiates, 4 Neophytes, SB w/Maul, Power Ax, Flamer
LRC w/ MM

6 Initiates, 5 Neophytes, SB w/Maul, Power Ax, Flamer
LRC w/ MM

6 Initiates, 5 Neophytes, SB w/Maul, Power Ax, Flamer
LRC w/ MM

3 Stormravens

I don't like it, really, but it's closer. Dropping 1 raven could allow for fuller squads and a better HQ.

Emperor's Champion
8 Initiates, 4 Neophytes, SB w/Maul, Ax, Flamer
LRC w/ MM

8 Initiates, 5 Neophytes, SB w/Maul, Ax, Flamer
LRC w/ MM

8 Initiates, 5 Neophytes, SB w/Maul, Ax, Flamer
LRC w/MM

2 Stormraven w/ Hurricane Bolters

That feels properly Templary, really, but it doesn't look especially effective...or am I wrong? And yes, I know the Champion is crap.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6603843.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6603843.page GMT 3 2k Templar lists, from Pods to Tide
But I like the chaplain here because he is a force multiplier. Giving the whole squad Hatred really makes them much stronger whereas the EC doesnt help his brethren as much.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6603902.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6603902.page GMT 3 2k Templar lists, from Pods to Tide HQ options, and especially when you use him as a Warlord.

I see them as supplementary HQs. Overly expensive supplementary HQs. For comparison, look at what a Librarian can do as a force multiplier, and he costs 25 points less than a Chaplain. Not that I'd ever take a filthy witchkin abomination, but it demonstrates the unreasonable gap in price versus capability this Dex has in HQs. Don't even get me started on what a wretched mess they've made of Grimaldus!

The Champion has a lot of problems. A whole lot. But if nothing else his stat line is solid (not great, but well above a Chaplain's), and he has good saves. Fearless is nice, but nothing to write home about. Still only 2 Wounds though, among other serious drawbacks.

I may just have to make a Marshal (Captain) with Teeth of Terra and a Storm Shield. A better weapon, more attacks and 1 more wound, but slightly worse saves. Feels unpleasantly Vanilla to me, though ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6604503.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/582266/6604503.page GMT