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		<title><![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "2k CSM list help"]]></title>
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				<title>2k CSM list help</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Here is what I have so far and sitting at 1896 points. I want to use the Helbrutes, Defiler and, Forgefiend to march up the field with the Warpsmith for repairs. Deep strike in my Terminators and lord while my troops take objectives. I am shy 104 points and not sure what to add or rearrange to fit my list. Sorry if it looks like crap this is my first real time submitting a list.<br /> <br /> <br /> Chaos Lord- <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(645);'>GoM</span>, <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(102);'>MoT</span>, <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(651);'>SoC</span>, Terminator Armor, combi-weapon, P. Axe <br /> Warpsmith <br /> 5 Terminators- <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(102);'>MoT</span> 3 P. Fists, 1 Chainfist, 2 combi-meltas, with dual <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(80);'>LCs</span> and <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(645);'>GoM</span> on champ <br /> Helbrute- P Scourge <br /> Helbrute- P Scourge <br /> 10 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(22);'>CSM</span>- 2x Plasma, rhino<br /> 10 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(22);'>CSM</span>-  Exchanged Bolters for <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(20);'>CCW</span>, <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(645);'>GoM</span>, P. Fist, Melta Bombs, and <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(80);'>LC</span> on champ, rhino<br /> Heldrake- Baleflamer <br /> Defiler- 2 Havoc Launcher, Reaper Autocannon<br /> Forgefiend <br /> 5 Havocs- 2 Autocannons, 1 Lascannon, 1 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(328);'>ML</span> w/ flakk missiles]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:18:35]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Vash108]]></author>
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				<title>Re:2k CSM list help</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Welcome to Dakka! Here, let me format the list (it is pretty hard to read)<br /> <br /> Chaos Lord- <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(645);'>GoM</span>, <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(102);'>MoT</span>, <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(651);'>SoC</span>, Terminator Armor, combi-weapon, P. Axe<br /> Warpsmith<br /> 5 Terminators- 3 P. Fists, 1 Chainfist, 2 combi-meltas, with dual <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(80);'>LCs</span> and <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(645);'>GoM</span> on champ<br /> Helbrute- P Scourge<br /> Helbrute- P Scourge<br /> 10 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(22);'>CSM</span>- <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(645);'>GoM</span>, P. Fist, Melta Bombs, and <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(80);'>LC</span> on champ<br /> Heldrake- Baleflamer<br /> Defiler- Havoc Launcher<br /> Forgefiend<br /> 5 Havocs- 2 Autocannons, 1 Lascannon, 1 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(328);'>ML</span> w/ flakk missiles<br /> <br /> In Codex: <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(22);'>CSM</span> you have to be very careful about your lists, each part must contribute to the whole. The key is synergy, redundancy, and knowing which upgrades to take on which units and which ones not to take.<br /> Some problems with your list:<br /> 1) You're running your terminators like <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(221);'>SS</span>/<span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(224);'>TH</span> loyalist terminators, but no matter how much makeup you put on a pig, its not a girlfriend, still just a pig. I wouldn't take terminators unless you're an experienced <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(22);'>CSM</span> player and have some games under your belt, and you have a specific task for them. For instance, after I get some more games done, I think I'll put Ahriman in a squad of 5 Tzeentch Terminators with flamers and axes, because he has a lot of 12"/template witchfires, but he doesnt want to get into <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(19);'>CC</span>, so the terminators serve as meatshields from shooting, and serve to deter charges with powerful <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(19);'>CC</span> and overwatch abilities.<br /> 2) Going back to what I said about upgrades earlier, <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(22);'>CSM</span> are one of the units best taken with almost no upgrades. Give em 2X the same special weapon and a rhino and they're good. If you really want to trick out the champion, it should only be because the squad has flamers/melta and might end up in <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(19);'>CC</span>. If that is the case, you will want to give him a <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(80);'>LC</span> or P. Sword. Use that I4! P. axes and P. fists are reserved for Plague Marines (who attack last often anyway) or terminators (who are durable enough to attack last)<br /> 3) Don't mix weapons on havocs. Unlike Longfangs from the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(124);'>SW</span> Codex, they cannot splitfire. If you're looking for versatility, take oblits. If you have a task in mind and you want the highest <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(262);'>DPS</span>, take havocs with 4X the same weapon<br /> 4) You replaced your <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(330);'>MMs</span> on your Helbrutes with P fists, why? Helbrutes simply cannot be equipped for <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(19);'>CC</span>. They have no method for getting into <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(19);'>CC</span> and once they get there they are rather unintimidating with 3 or 4 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(123);'>Str</span> 10 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(6);'>AP</span> 2 attacks that many other melee units have or can beat and they only have 1 or 2 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(661);'>HP</span> left at that point anyway<br /> <br /> If I were to make a Daemon Engine List, it would look like this:<br /> <br /> 2000 points balanced list<br /> <br /> Warpsmith- AoDG<br /> Warpsmith- AoDG<br /> 10 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(22);'>CSM</span>- 2 plasma, rhino<br /> 10 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(22);'>CSM</span>- 2 melta, rhino, <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(80);'>LC</span> on Champ<br /> 10 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(22);'>CSM</span>- 2 flamer, rhino, <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(80);'>LC</span> on Champ<br /> Heldrake- Baleflamer<br /> Heldrake- Baleflamer<br /> Helbrute- Reaper <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(5);'>AC</span>, <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(328);'>ML</span><br /> Helbrute- Reaper <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(5);'>AC</span>, <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(328);'>ML</span><br /> Forgefiend<br /> Forgefiend<br /> Defiler<br /> <br /> Look how much armor saturation we have! Your goal will be to eliminate all Anti-armor your foe has, then wipe the board. Keep your troops somewhat safe and grab stuff late game. This list has 55 pts to spare <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(17);'>btw</span>]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Mon, 17 Mar 2014 19:07:17]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ changerofways]]></author>
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				<title>Re:2k CSM list help</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Thanks Changer, I updated the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(280);'>OP</span>. <br /> <br /> I figured the Brutes would lower the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(149);'>WS</span> of the enemy by 2d3 with 2 P. Scourges. Along with the defiler to smash up stuff after using it's along the way, then the Warpsmith could repair.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Mon, 17 Mar 2014 19:17:57]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Vash108]]></author>
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				<title>2k CSM list help</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Kinda feeling Helbrutes will be a lot more fun to field now with the new Dataslate<br /> ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 23 Mar 2014 02:04:14]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Vash108]]></author>
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				<title>Re:2k CSM list help</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ I think you might find the new Helbrute Dataslates complimentary to your list.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 23 Mar 2014 04:31:01]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Mizzri]]></author>
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