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		<title><![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "LAPD: All cars are under investigation"]]></title>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <a href="http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/the-stream/the-stream-officialblog/2014/3/25/lapd-all-cars-areunderinvestigation.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/the-stream/the-stream-officialblog/2014/3/25/lapd-all-cars-areunderinvestigation.html</a><br /> <br /> <blockquote class="uncited"><div>The <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(85);'>Los</span> Angeles Police Department says it cannot release information about its automatic license plate reader program because all cars in the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(85);'>Los</span> Angeles metropolitan area are under investigation. <br /> <br /> The LAPD made this legal argument in response to a records request from the American Civil Liberties Union and the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF), which sought to find out what the license plate readers had captured, as well as the department's policies for retaining and sharing the data.<br /> <br /> Automatic license plate reader (ALPR) systems like the one employed by the LAPD take photos of any and all license plates, storing the plate number, time and location.<br /> <br /> <b>The LAPD's legal argument for denying the records request is novel in that it characterizes data collection not tied to a specific criminal case as investigatory, arguing that it may prove useful in future investigations.</b> <i><font color='blue'>feth me</font></i><br /> <br /> The LAPD's filing reads: "All ALPR data is investigatory — regardless of whether a license plate scan results in an immediate 'hit' because, for instance, the vehicle may be stolen, the subject of an 'Amber Alert,' or operated by an individual with an outstanding arrest warrant." <br /> <br /> Transparency reports and successful records requests across the country have raised concerns about ALPR programs like the one in <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(85);'>Los</span> Angeles. <br /> <br /> <b>A public record request about the Boston Police Department's license plate readers caused the program to be shut down after it was revealed that the department failed to protect personal data and that license plate readers were deployed primarily in low-income neighborhoods.</b><br /> <br /> In February, it was revealed that Vermont had granted various federal agencies access to its database of 8 million license plates and location records.<br /> <br /> ALPR programs elsewhere have been shown to collect large amounts of data in relatively short periods of time. With just 61 scanners statewide, Vermont law enforcement performed enough scans to read every license plate in the town of Rutland 64 times in an 18-month period in 2012-2013. <br /> <br /> Dallas law enforcement's larger ALPR deployment scanned 10.5 million license plates in three months. <br /> Police departments have touted the ability of license plate readers to solve serious crimes like stolen vehicles. Dallas police, for example, say they have recovered 170 stolen vehicles since the start of their ALPR program. <br /> <br /> A MuckRock and Boston Globe investigation into Boston's ALPR program suggested that the system was not focused on serious crime.<b> In one instance, a stolen vehicle was scanned nearly 60 times without triggering action from law enforcement.</b> </div></blockquote><br /> <br /> Feth Fethity feth]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:08:08]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Gentleman_Jellyfish]]></author>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Pick up that can, Citizen. ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:15:20]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Frazzled]]></author>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Insert slippery slope argument here.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:26:40]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ -Shrike-]]></author>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Insert counter-point of "If you have nothing to hide, there isn't a problem!"]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:28:38]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ kronk]]></author>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Oh LAPD. It's like you're in a race with NYPD to win the "Most Hated Public Servants" award <img src="/s/i/a/39ea8e0dbfb45dcc6b802cd0e198dba3.gif" border="0">]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:35:55]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ LordofHats]]></author>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/7c9b1f23c698e9434a766f2a131f3818.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6667583.page"><b>Frazzled wrote:</b></a><br/>Pick up that can, Citizen. </div></blockquote><br /> <br /> Where's a crowbar when you need it...<br /> <br /> <img src="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-52IA8IUg_hg/UIlZ_7VXOyI/AAAAAAAAAHc/3tQg1ttRV9k/s1600/Pick_up_that_can2.jpg" border="0" />]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:36:55]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Spacemanvic]]></author>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Im confused, what is bad about the scanner?]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 26 Mar 2014 18:06:57]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ hotsauceman1]]></author>
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				<title>Re:LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Everything<br /> ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 26 Mar 2014 18:09:50]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ OIIIIIIO]]></author>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Thats helpful. I mean, how is it different from them just punching it in the computer?]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 26 Mar 2014 18:17:32]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ hotsauceman1]]></author>
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				<title>Re:LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ It is kind of like the Driving under the influence laws that my state has. I would uphold it with all of my being IF it were actually about people's safety, and it may have started that way but it is not that way right now. They are more interested in collecting the all mighty dollar rather than safety. <br /> <br /> Prime example: My brother ( and I do love him but he does stupid crap all the time ) got himself a DUI and they racked his ass because he makes good money. ( We are both Ironworkers. ) He was forced to go to "Classes" so that he could learn to control himself and not drink and drive. He was paying $75 a class and was court ordered to take 3 classes a week. The vast majority of people that were in the same class only had to pay $25 or $10 per class if any at all. This is wrong in my book, but by the same token so is drinking and driving. I find big brother to by highly prejudicial.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 26 Mar 2014 18:17:54]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ OIIIIIIO]]></author>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Well, dont drink and drive.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 26 Mar 2014 18:19:36]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ hotsauceman1]]></author>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/693f7ed87b03c03c7b926355452a903b.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6667803.page"><b>hotsauceman1 wrote:</b></a><br/>Thats helpful. I mean, how is it different from them just punching it in the computer?</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> its automated, done on everyone,<br /> <br /> sure so long as EVERY single cop/bureaucrat/agency who uses it is 100% honest, and infallible, it can do no harm...<br /> <br /> but we all know that isnt the case, and just like with the NSA collecting huge swaths of data, it WILL be abused, it will be compromised and leaked, and it will be used for things other then what its advertised as.<br /> <br /> also allows for them to automatically put you into "groups of special interest"<br /> <br /> IE "oh, look at all the plates that went to the cheech and chong show, now we have a list of pot smokers" and so on]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 26 Mar 2014 18:52:22]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ easysauce]]></author>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ In other words, "All citizens are suspects." ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 26 Mar 2014 18:56:21]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Easy E]]></author>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Which violates our tenants of reasonable suspicion. <br /> <br /> Driving a car does not qualify.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 26 Mar 2014 19:58:28]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ reiner]]></author>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ It's LA, is anyone honestly surprised?]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 26 Mar 2014 20:28:46]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Dreadclaw69]]></author>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/693f7ed87b03c03c7b926355452a903b.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6667816.page"><b>hotsauceman1 wrote:</b></a><br/>Well, dont drink and drive.</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> But the same crime or misdemeanor should be punished the same way for everyone regardless of personal circumstances such as how rich they are. One possible exception (<span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(72);'>IMO</span>): repeat offenses.<br /> <br /> ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 26 Mar 2014 20:30:47]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Bran Dawri]]></author>
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				<title>Re:LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ No surprise. Governments everywhere are gearing up for war against their own people.<br /> <br /> Locally we have similar issues with police using some magic box to scan cell phone numbers of everyone in a certain area - used to instantly identify everyone involved in a protest, for example.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 26 Mar 2014 20:53:21]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ lord_blackfang]]></author>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6668338.page"><b>Bran Dawri wrote:</b></a><br/><blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/693f7ed87b03c03c7b926355452a903b.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6667816.page"><b>hotsauceman1 wrote:</b></a><br/>Well, dont drink and drive.</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> But the same crime or misdemeanor should be punished the same way for everyone regardless of personal circumstances such as how rich they are. One possible exception (<span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(72);'>IMO</span>): repeat offenses.</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> If the fine or cost of the class is based on your earnings, it is punished in the same way for everyone. If the fine is 1/1000th of your yearly wage and you earn £10k a year, you pay £10 in fines. If you earn £100k per year, you pay £100 in fines... one may pay more in absolute terms, but they both pay the same as a proportion of their wage.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 26 Mar 2014 20:58:07]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ SilverMK2]]></author>
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				<title>Re:LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Well, that's certainly an innovative new argument. Laws about not harassing or investigating innocent people getting in your way? Declare <i>everyone</i> a suspect!<br /> <br /> Now we just need an equally innovative argument that this kind of stuff is treason, and public executions of everyone involved as a warning to their replacements.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 26 Mar 2014 21:38:57]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Peregrine]]></author>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6668338.page"><b>Bran Dawri wrote:</b></a><br/><br /> <br /> But the same crime or misdemeanor should be punished the same way for everyone regardless of personal circumstances such as how rich they are. One possible exception (<span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(72);'>IMO</span>): repeat offenses.<br /> <br /> </div></blockquote><br /> <br /> <br /> The only way I'd be ok with it being "different" is if they took Sweden or Norway or Finland's system, wherein the dude from Nokia got a 1.2million dollar speeding ticket, because the price of the ticket was based on his income.... which is ultimately charging people the "same" for the same offense.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 26 Mar 2014 21:39:42]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Ensis Ferrae]]></author>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/e38fc245cda24ddf971cefa95472e77c.png" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6667958.page"><b>easysauce wrote:</b></a><br/><blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/693f7ed87b03c03c7b926355452a903b.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6667803.page"><b>hotsauceman1 wrote:</b></a><br/>Thats helpful. I mean, how is it different from them just punching it in the computer?</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> its automated, done on everyone,<br /> <br /> sure so long as EVERY single cop/bureaucrat/agency who uses it is 100% honest, and infallible, it can do no harm...<br /> <br /> but we all know that isnt the case, and just like with the NSA collecting huge swaths of data, it WILL be abused, it will be compromised and leaked, and it will be used for things other then what its advertised as.<br /> <br /> also allows for them to automatically put you into "groups of special interest"<br /> <br /> IE "oh, look at all the plates that went to the cheech and chong show, now we have a list of pot smokers" and so on</div></blockquote><br /> Im sorry, but License plates are already available to police. They can type it in on their Comp, and get its infor. How is that different?]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 26 Mar 2014 23:32:05]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ hotsauceman1]]></author>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ One of the issues is that the plates are automatically read, tagged with where they are, and when, making stupidly easy to then trace where people are and guess what they are doing.<br /> <br /> Additionally, they attempting to prevent anyone getting any information on what they are actually doing, or how they are using the information.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 26 Mar 2014 23:37:05]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ SilverMK2]]></author>
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				<title>Re:LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ While their argument and rationale are, frankly, horrific, I don't have a problem with automatic license plate readers in general - I don't believe your reasonable expectation of privacy extends to a publicly-facing identifier like a license plate. <br /> <br /> The problems come later, when it's possible to use the database to assemble a larger picture of the totality of your general movements in public - at that point it's legally problematic.  <br /> <br /> If there were safeguards to prevent A from morphing into B, I'd be OK with it.   Database is flushed x often, or searches can only be performed on the database with a valid warrant to find X plate - something like that. <br /> <br /> ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 26 Mar 2014 23:43:15]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Ouze]]></author>
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				<title>Re:LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Colour me horrified, I cannot wait till they bring that over here next with the likely excuse being "because paedophiles"]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 26 Mar 2014 23:57:23]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Bullockist]]></author>
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				<description><![CDATA[ I'm sure over here we'll be told to "think of the children!"...<br /> <br /> ...those internet filters working as intended, Mr Cameron? <img src="/s/i/a/baf5f2e54c6b17d5c5d39aecadfa1272.gif" border="0">]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 27 Mar 2014 00:26:39]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ -Shrike-]]></author>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/7315d838ce07cbd7aeef23c64148aeaf.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6668667.page"><b>SilverMK2 wrote:</b></a><br/>Additionally, they attempting to prevent anyone getting any information on what they are actually doing, or how they are using the information.</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> And this is the real problem. We don't <i>know</i> what they're doing with the information, and we're expected to just trust a group that has done nothing to deserve that trust. Why? Because everyone is a suspect! It's just more of the same old "we have all the power for your own good, don't question us" nonsense we've seen over and over again. And of course it's going to continue until the people responsible see real consequences for their actions.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 27 Mar 2014 00:54:04]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Peregrine]]></author>
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				<title>Re:LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/c658660cfb8680ff4e93f8a1223cc33e.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6668684.page"><b>Ouze wrote:</b></a><br/>While their argument and rationale are, frankly, horrific, I don't have a problem with automatic license plate readers in general - I don't believe your reasonable expectation of privacy extends to a publicly-facing identifier like a license plate. <br /> <br /> The problems come later, when it's possible to use the database to assemble a larger picture of the totality of your general movements in public - at that point it's legally problematic.  <br /> <br /> If there were safeguards to prevent A from morphing into B, I'd be OK with it.   Database is flushed x often, or searches can only be performed on the database with a valid warrant to find X plate - something like that. <br /> <br /> </div></blockquote><br /> <br /> That is my issue. I have no problem with a cop scanning my plate 10x daily wherever I may be and sees "d-usa' car, no tickets, no violations, valid insurance, good looking". If they dump all the scans that were benign out of the system after they clear it would be okay. But if they end up with "d-usa has never done anything wrong, but every Wednesday evening be hangs out at the game store and Fridays he eats chinese" because they have a database of all my movements thanks to the scans, then there is the problem.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 27 Mar 2014 01:04:06]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ d-usa]]></author>
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				<title>Re:LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ See the future only the living commit crimes!<br /> <img src="http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_luf6euCOrG1r43px0o1_1280.jpg" border="0" />]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 27 Mar 2014 07:18:42]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Jehan-reznor]]></author>
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				<title>Re:LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/bf48e6a9af7f70613b7e8e53f8f2c47c.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6668933.page"><b>d-usa wrote:</b></a><br/><blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/c658660cfb8680ff4e93f8a1223cc33e.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6668684.page"><b>Ouze wrote:</b></a><br/>While their argument and rationale are, frankly, horrific, I don't have a problem with automatic license plate readers in general - I don't believe your reasonable expectation of privacy extends to a publicly-facing identifier like a license plate. <br /> <br /> The problems come later, when it's possible to use the database to assemble a larger picture of the totality of your general movements in public - at that point it's legally problematic.  <br /> <br /> If there were safeguards to prevent A from morphing into B, I'd be OK with it.   Database is flushed x often, or searches can only be performed on the database with a valid warrant to find X plate - something like that. <br /> <br /> </div></blockquote><br /> <br /> That is my issue. I have no problem with a cop scanning my plate 10x daily wherever I may be and sees "d-usa' car, no tickets, no violations, valid insurance, good looking". If they dump all the scans that were benign out of the system after they clear it would be okay. But if they end up with "d-usa has never done anything wrong, but every Wednesday evening be hangs out at the game store and Fridays he eats chinese" because they have a database of all my movements thanks to the scans, then there is the problem.</div></blockquote><br /> The same problem with the NSA collecting meta data from calls/emails]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 27 Mar 2014 07:50:10]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Dreadclaw69]]></author>
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				<title>Re:LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/bf48e6a9af7f70613b7e8e53f8f2c47c.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6668933.page"><b>d-usa wrote:</b></a><br/><blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/c658660cfb8680ff4e93f8a1223cc33e.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6668684.page"><b>Ouze wrote:</b></a><br/>While their argument and rationale are, frankly, horrific, I don't have a problem with automatic license plate readers in general - I don't believe your reasonable expectation of privacy extends to a publicly-facing identifier like a license plate. <br /> <br /> The problems come later, when it's possible to use the database to assemble a larger picture of the totality of your general movements in public - at that point it's legally problematic.  <br /> <br /> If there were safeguards to prevent A from morphing into B, I'd be OK with it.   Database is flushed x often, or searches can only be performed on the database with a valid warrant to find X plate - something like that. <br /> <br /> </div></blockquote><br /> <br /> That is my issue. I have no problem with a cop scanning my plate 10x daily wherever I may be and sees "d-usa' car, no tickets, no violations, valid insurance, good looking". If they dump all the scans that were benign out of the system after they clear it would be okay. But if they end up with "d-usa has never done anything wrong, but every Wednesday evening be hangs out at the game store and Fridays he eats chinese" because they have a database of all my movements thanks to the scans, then there is the problem.</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> I took that as being what the peice was about. It is not 100% clear what they are complaining about, but I think it was the holding of data rather than the checking in the first place. It is the diffrence between a police officer looking at people for suspicious behaviour and writing down details of everyone they see and cross refrenceing all activity with all other officers on an ongoing basis.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 27 Mar 2014 09:31:43]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Steve steveson]]></author>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/e0cb5c970ea9ba378549a0da568ae027.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6668812.page"><b>-Shrike- wrote:</b></a><br/>I'm sure over here we'll be told to "think of the children!"...<br /> <br /> ...those internet filters working as intended, Mr Cameron? <img src="/s/i/a/baf5f2e54c6b17d5c5d39aecadfa1272.gif" border="0"></div></blockquote><br /> <br /> <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(298);'>AFAIK</span> the only things banned have been Megashare and Viooz <img src="/s/i/a/baf5f2e54c6b17d5c5d39aecadfa1272.gif" border="0">]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 27 Mar 2014 10:13:47]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ master of ordinance]]></author>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Why is the information being gathered a bad thing if it is not being released somewhere?<br /> <br /> If you do nothing wrong and aren't tied to the car if it is involved in a future crime, what really is there to fear?]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 27 Mar 2014 10:16:06]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ SagesStone]]></author>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Roads are owned by the state.  Cars must be licensed by the state before you can drive them on state roads.  You, yourself, must be licensed to drive before you can drive on state roads.<br /> <br /> Where in any of that is the expectation to travel the state roads anonymously in a vehicle?<br /> <br /> ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 27 Mar 2014 10:23:15]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Breotan]]></author>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/8856c10a9e7993cd9ef88353db3162a0.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6669773.page"><b>Breotan wrote:</b></a><br/>Roads are owned by the state.  Cars must be licensed by the state before you can drive them on state roads.  You, yourself, must be licensed to drive before you can drive on state roads.<br /> <br /> Where in any of that is the expectation to travel the state roads anonymously in a vehicle?<br /> <br /> </div></blockquote><br /> <br /> Where is the expectation that you shouldn't be?  The Fourth Amendment says nothing about "what we really mean is you're only protected in your house if no one can see you or scan you through the walls. Everything else is fair game 'cause like its public bro."]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 27 Mar 2014 10:41:35]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Frazzled]]></author>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ I really don't want to ever go back to America, for any reason. What a horrible place. The whole world is horrible.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 27 Mar 2014 10:56:04]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Captain Fantastic]]></author>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/8856c10a9e7993cd9ef88353db3162a0.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6669773.page"><b>Breotan wrote:</b></a><br/>Where in any of that is the expectation to travel the state roads anonymously in a vehicle?</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> This was addressed by the SCOTUS pretty recently, in the GPS tracker case. If you're not familiar with it, the police were throwing battery operated GPS trackers onto cars, and their defense was, in essence, what you said. Out in public, no expectation of privacy.  And that argument is not without merit - you need no warrant to just follow someone around in public for a bit if you're suspicious, right? Not in contention. <br /> <br /> The problem is when you can build a picture of <i>the totality</i> of someone's movements.  Knowing where you drive <u>all the time</u> over a period of time is the kind of invasive search that the SCOTUS ruled would require a warrant. <br /> <br /> If these guys were just scanning plates and immediately tossing the data if they didn't have a match to APB or wanted vehicle, I think they are legally and morally OK.  The problems arise when they start to build profiles around those plates, and that profile will only get more and more invasive over time as more automated scanners accrue here and there. <br /> <br /> I think a good middle ground would be, perhaps, if you have a cruiser that scans plates and it sees one with an open warrant or an APB, it flags an alert and displays info, as I am sure it does now. However, you can't just key in a random license plate and see known locations - I think that has to require a warrant or some kind of legal probable cause.    ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 27 Mar 2014 11:39:52]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Ouze]]></author>
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				<title>Re:LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ If nothing else, I'm kind of excited that we're only about thirty years away from the point where I might get hired to fly a team in to hit Ares or Saeder-Krupp.  ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 27 Mar 2014 12:35:52]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Seaward]]></author>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/c7e5ecce88de1cb30a4421976f125142.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6669762.page"><b>n0t_u wrote:</b></a><br/>Why is the information being gathered a bad thing if it is not being released somewhere?<br /> <br /> If you do nothing wrong and aren't tied to the car if it is involved in a future crime, what really is there to fear?</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/8856c10a9e7993cd9ef88353db3162a0.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6669773.page"><b>Breotan wrote:</b></a><br/>Roads are owned by the state.  Cars must be licensed by the state before you can drive them on state roads.  You, yourself, must be licensed to drive before you can drive on state roads.<br /> <br /> Where in any of that is the expectation to travel the state roads anonymously in a vehicle?</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> The tagging and data (reg plates) is being used way beyond its origonal intention, to identify a vehicle and tie it back to state held records. This gose way beyond that, tracking and building databases on vehicle movements over a long period of time. This is a major shift in use, and is being done without any oversite or control. That is why it is a problem. The "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" argument has never been a valid for anything.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 27 Mar 2014 12:56:44]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Steve steveson]]></author>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ I'm fine with scanners if they dump the data at set intervals. Even if the data is only dumped weekly I'm still cool with it. But a continuous database is insane. ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 27 Mar 2014 13:35:34]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Hulksmash]]></author>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/c7e5ecce88de1cb30a4421976f125142.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6669762.page"><b>n0t_u wrote:</b></a><br/>Why is the information being gathered a bad thing if it is not being released somewhere?<br /> <br /> If you do nothing wrong and aren't tied to the car if it is involved in a future crime, what really is there to fear?</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> The problem is that it WILL get released to somewhere.<br /> <br /> Simply having the information is unacceptable.<br /> <br /> It's kinda like a guy that gets busted for weed saying "Its not mine, I don't smoke dope man. It's my friends, I'm holding it for him"<br /> <br /> You don't believe him, and I wouldn't believe the LAPD even if they do say its not going to get used.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 27 Mar 2014 15:30:44]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Grey Templar]]></author>
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				<title>Re:LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/bf48e6a9af7f70613b7e8e53f8f2c47c.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6668933.page"><b>d-usa wrote:</b></a><br/>That is my issue. I have no problem with a cop scanning my plate 10x daily wherever I may be and sees "d-usa' car, no tickets, no violations, valid insurance, good looking". If they dump all the scans that were benign out of the system after they clear it would be okay. But if they end up with "d-usa has never done anything wrong, but every Wednesday evening be hangs out at the game store and Fridays he eats chinese" because they have a database of all my movements thanks to the scans, then there is the problem.</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> And, at some point down the road (pun!) how about "d-usa gets a cavity search at the airport because on Wednesday evenings his car is parked next to the car of some guy who makes anti-government posts on Twitter"]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 27 Mar 2014 15:59:22]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ lord_blackfang]]></author>
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				<title>Re:LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/558ea710f8e9d9ec21b39a6b2a94371f.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6669968.page"><b>Seaward wrote:</b></a><br/>If nothing else, I'm kind of excited that we're only about thirty years away from the point where I might get hired to fly a team in to hit Ares or Saeder-Krupp.  </div></blockquote><br /> <br /> As long as dragons aren't involved you should be okay.  I hear you shouldn't deal with them so be careful!]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:19:16]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ DarkTraveler777]]></author>
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				<title>Re:LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Shouldn't there be some probable cause for police to be running your plates?]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:29:16]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Andrew1975]]></author>
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				<title>Re:LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/22c911076cab533e6705251b886057a7.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6670339.page"><b>lord_blackfang wrote:</b></a><br/><blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/bf48e6a9af7f70613b7e8e53f8f2c47c.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6668933.page"><b>d-usa wrote:</b></a><br/>That is my issue. I have no problem with a cop scanning my plate 10x daily wherever I may be and sees "d-usa' car, no tickets, no violations, valid insurance, good looking". If they dump all the scans that were benign out of the system after they clear it would be okay. But if they end up with "d-usa has never done anything wrong, but every Wednesday evening be hangs out at the game store and Fridays he eats chinese" because they have a database of all my movements thanks to the scans, then there is the problem.</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> And, at some point down the road (pun!) how about "d-usa gets a cavity search at the airport because on Wednesday evenings his car is parked next to the car of some guy who makes anti-government posts on Twitter"</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> Cavity search? Sounds like grounds for indefinite detention to me!]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:35:14]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Gentleman_Jellyfish]]></author>
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				<title>Re:LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/3780a3d5526daea62fb9a94c2f43af38.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6670419.page"><b>Andrew1975 wrote:</b></a><br/>Shouldn't there be some probable cause for police to be running your plates?</div></blockquote><br /> Fourth Amendment says there's a problem.  Unelected men in robes say otherwise. ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 27 Mar 2014 17:09:30]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Frazzled]]></author>
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				<title>Re:LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/7c9b1f23c698e9434a766f2a131f3818.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6670573.page"><b>Frazzled wrote:</b></a><br/><blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/3780a3d5526daea62fb9a94c2f43af38.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6670419.page"><b>Andrew1975 wrote:</b></a><br/>Shouldn't there be some probable cause for police to be running your plates?</div></blockquote><br /> Fourth Amendment says there's a problem.  Unelected men in robes say otherwise. </div></blockquote><br /> <br /> I had an issue once where I let my plates lapse. So I went in got them renewed and put the sticker on. Not a half hour later a I notice an officer following me, pulls me over and walks up to the car.<br /> <br /> c: "License and registration please."<br /> me: "Sure, can I ask why you pulled me over, I wasn't speeding?"<br /> c: "Your tags were expired"<br /> me." Really, how did you know that?"<br /> c: "Old sticker"<br /> me:"Thats odd, because I just put the new sticker on 30 minutes ago when I renewed them, if you look I'm sure its there."<br /> Cops steps to back of car and looks.<br /> c: "Sorry about that, must not be in the system yet, they came up expired when I ran your plates."<br /> me: " What cause did you have to run my plates?"<br /> At this point officer gets a "Coppy"<br /> c: "Do you want me to find a reason? Cause right now I'm about to let you go, but I'm sure I can come up with some reason to site you if I want!"<br /> <br /> That just about ended the conversation there.<br /> <br /> My favorite was when I got a ticket for no front license plate....when I had one, not hidden or bent or messed with in anyway, right where it should be attached to the front bumper in plain view. I had just put it there a week before when I got a warning. I walked to the front of my car and pointed to it and quickly got a picture with the office standing next to it.<br /> <br /> me: "Guess you made a mistake, have a nice day."<br /> c: "Tickets still yours, I already wrote it up, so you can fight it if you want, I probably won't show up if you fight it." <br /> me: "Wait ....what."?<br /> Had to go to court twice, guy doesn't show case dismissed, but still had to take up take off work for two mornings to fight it.<br /> <br /> I don't hate the police, I have plenty of good stories about them too, I just hate giving them more powers that they can abuse any way they like.<br /> ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 27 Mar 2014 18:09:10]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Andrew1975]]></author>
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				<title>Re:LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/558ea710f8e9d9ec21b39a6b2a94371f.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6669968.page"><b>Seaward wrote:</b></a><br/>If nothing else, I'm kind of excited that we're only about thirty years away from the point where I might get hired to fly a team in to hit Ares or Saeder-Krupp.  </div></blockquote><br /> <br /> Precisely why I can no longer play Shadowrun as a fun diversion anymore.  Way to close to home now.  ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 27 Mar 2014 18:23:29]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Easy E]]></author>
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				<title>Re:LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/1206.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6670845.page"><b>Easy E wrote:</b></a><br/><blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/558ea710f8e9d9ec21b39a6b2a94371f.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6669968.page"><b>Seaward wrote:</b></a><br/>If nothing else, I'm kind of excited that we're only about thirty years away from the point where I might get hired to fly a team in to hit Ares or Saeder-Krupp.  </div></blockquote><br /> <br /> Precisely why I can no longer play Shadowrun as a fun diversion anymore.  Way to close to home now.  </div></blockquote><br /> <br /> Tell me about it, we had a family of Trolls move into our neighbourhood and the property prices just dropped overnight.....?<br /> <br /> Is there nothing that a proportion of America will not throw their toys out of the pram over?<br /> <br /> We have loads of number plate recognition cameras here to go with our tens of thousand surveillance cameras and we have nothing to few, the computer told me so.  Trust the computer, the computer is your friend...<br /> <br /> <img src="http://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/thumb/1365/48/1365485236582s.jpg" border="0" />]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, 1 Apr 2014 10:16:35]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ notprop]]></author>
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				<title>Re:LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/558ea710f8e9d9ec21b39a6b2a94371f.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6669968.page"><b>Seaward wrote:</b></a><br/>If nothing else, I'm kind of excited that we're only about thirty years away from the point where I might get hired to fly a team in to hit Ares or Saeder-Krupp.  </div></blockquote><br /> <br /> I'm not saying that I can get you across any legal or illegal border on my unregistered stealth lighter than air vehicle..... but there's a 1088 kilogram weight limit and I don't deal with dragons. Close air support is extra. ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 2 Apr 2014 00:37:51]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Bromsy]]></author>
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				<title>Re:LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Mental note to all of you down the road in the Future. Keep both hands visible on top the steering wheel when coming up to the Check point. Includes your passenger to. Kids well it your problem not ours so keep a roll of duct tape in the car/van/jeep/SUV. Violators will be sho...eerrrr apprehended for not obeying the clear written sign in English in broad red letters.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 2 Apr 2014 01:00:38]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Jihadin]]></author>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ I just keep any passengers tied up in my spacious trunk. Allows me to listen to my jams]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 2 Apr 2014 03:04:59]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ hotsauceman1]]></author>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/693f7ed87b03c03c7b926355452a903b.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6686533.page"><b>hotsauceman1 wrote:</b></a><br/>I just keep any passengers tied up in my spacious trunk. Allows me to listen to my jams</div></blockquote><br /> Clearly the best policy.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 2 Apr 2014 03:16:11]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Frazzled]]></author>
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				<title>LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/c658660cfb8680ff4e93f8a1223cc33e.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6669896.page"><b>Ouze wrote:</b></a><br/><blockquote><div><img src="https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/8856c10a9e7993cd9ef88353db3162a0.jpg" height="20" border="0">&nbsp;<a href="/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586796/6669773.page"><b>Breotan wrote:</b></a><br/>Where in any of that is the expectation to travel the state roads anonymously in a vehicle?</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> This was addressed by the SCOTUS pretty recently, in the GPS tracker case. If you're not familiar with it, the police were throwing battery operated GPS trackers onto cars, and their defense was, in essence, what you said. Out in public, no expectation of privacy.  And that argument is not without merit - you need no warrant to just follow someone around in public for a bit if you're suspicious, right? Not in contention. <br /> <br /> The problem is when you can build a picture of <i>the totality</i> of someone's movements.  Knowing where you drive <u>all the time</u> over a period of time is the kind of invasive search that the SCOTUS ruled would require a warrant. <br /> <br /> If these guys were just scanning plates and immediately tossing the data if they didn't have a match to APB or wanted vehicle, I think they are legally and morally OK.  The problems arise when they start to build profiles around those plates, and that profile will only get more and more invasive over time as more automated scanners accrue here and there. <br /> <br /> I think a good middle ground would be, perhaps, if you have a cruiser that scans plates and it sees one with an open warrant or an APB, it flags an alert and displays info, as I am sure it does now. However, you can't just key in a random license plate and see known locations - I think that has to require a warrant or some kind of legal probable cause.    </div></blockquote><br /> <br /> I have installed 2 of these systems on vehicles in the Port Orchard PD, while testing the systems in the vehicle itself this is exactly how it worked, if there was a flagged license plate it would pop up on their laptop with a big red warning and a description of whatever the warning is about, a picture of the vehicle, and a zoomed in picture of the plate for verification. The officer could not type a license plate into the scanning software and see everywhere that plate had been scanned from their cruiser other than what had been scanned that day (They could obviously pull up a plate using the normal database for more info, or more than likely call it in t dispatch for more information). On the other hand, I also installed the server in the building and while I do not know the procedures required to access the information, you could pull up a plate number and get the information on where that plate had been scanned by the 2 cruisers with the plate recognition system.<br />  <br /> The primary justification, other than catching people with expired plates (cus you know $), and for people switching plates onto the wrong car, was for warrants and stolen vehicles. I do know they are purged from the vehicles (on the ones I installed anyway) nightly, but not sure on the primary server in the station (think 30 days but don't hold me to it). The way they worked when I was installing them (2009/2010 which was when these started showing up around here) was the officers laptop would store the relevant information so he could go back through if he needed to, then at the end of shift they would move all of the data off the laptop, via USB thumb drive, and then upload it to the server in the station, then every morning at the beginning of shift they would d/l an update from the server with any new BOLO lists. This has changed to a more streamlined process with wireless tech improving since then, but the principal has remained the same as the laptops simply can't store more than a couple of days data.<br /> <br /> If I remember correctly, I asked one of the guys at the station why store the data for all the cars on the server and he told me a scenario I could see it being used for: proving someone was somewhere they say they were not, like someone who has a restraining order against another person, they would then, with a warrant, be able to access the database and see if that person had ever been scanned near the home of the person with the restraining order if that person complained. Whether this is true or not I do not know as it was in idle conversation, but once the novelty of scanning 500 plates in a 15 min drive across town wore off all they cared about were the ones that popped up with a warning.<br /> <br /> Anyway this was all kinda in the beginning of this technology, and while just about every PD/Sheriff around the Seattle area has at least a couple of these, just thought I would toss in my knowledge from when I installed these.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 2 Apr 2014 03:33:22]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ IronWarLeg]]></author>
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				<title>Re:LAPD: All cars are under investigation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Iron...you came to Port Orchard and didn't even swing by Olalla to say Hi....a pox on you sir..may a thousand fleas find a home on your scrotum...]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 2 Apr 2014 04:00:00]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Jihadin]]></author>
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