<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Tarpitting a Razorback - Rules vs Reality"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/15.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Tarpitting a Razorback - Rules vs Reality
I have a razorback with TL lascannons. It is waiting to snipe armor.

Enemy's turn he moves his big armor right into my LOS. However, his last move has the one remaining unit from a scout squad assault my Razorback. Doesn't have a CC weapon, no grenades. Does no damage.

His turn ends but he is smiling at me. For the dialog, I will refer to my opponent by the acronym TB (for "Total Bastard").

Me: I will shoot the tank with my razorback.
TB: You can't. It's locked in combat.
Me: What? That one guy can't damage my Razorback at all! I'm ignoring him. It's a tank after all.
TB: You can't. He has you locked in.
Me: Okay, so the Razorback shoots him then.
TB: Transports can't assault. No passengers means you can't shoot him either.
Me: This is ridiculous. Okay, the ten guys on the wall easily within range will gun him down.
TB: You can't. He is locked in combat so another unit can't shoot him.
Me: Fine. My nearby squad will assault him.
TB: You can't. My unit is already engaged. You can't assault a unit that is assaulting another unit.

At this point it all gets a bit blurry in my memory. All I know is that I lost that game thanks to one tiny scout jabbing the armor with a pointed stick.

A few questions:

1. How right and/or wrong was he with his various rules statements?
2. If he is right, WHY? It's a flipping tank. If in real life someone ran out and poked an Abrams tank with a spoon repeatedly while another tank was rounding the corner, it would ignore the surrealist attack and fire on the tank (or crush the guy under its treads while firing).

Thanks,
Roger Dorn]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/587704/6684832.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/587704/6684832.page GMT Tarpitting a Razorback - Rules vs Reality
If the scout couldn't hurt the vehicle, he shouldn't have charged it (no kraks/s4?).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/587704/6684849.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/587704/6684849.page GMT Re:Tarpitting a Razorback - Rules vs Reality
With regards to Tank-Shocking them you would actually need to move the vehicle. Spinning on the spot cannot be used as a Tank Shock.

Worth noting though that if you do not move your vehicle and the enemy models remain in b2b they can strike blows against it in your turn.

Be wary of dismissing Scouts (if my assumption is correct that they are SM Scouts) they carry Krak grenades that can easily hurt a Razorbacks rear armour.



]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/587704/6684852.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/587704/6684852.page GMT Tarpitting a Razorback - Rules vs Reality


Second, vehicles are never locked, except Walkers.

And you can of course assault a unit already in combat.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/587704/6684854.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/587704/6684854.page GMT Tarpitting a Razorback - Rules vs Reality 40k rule book as you and your opponent are incorrect on a number of issues.

The most important section to check out is the "Successive Turns" paragraph and the paragraph directly above it.

But to summarize, vehicles and the units that assault them are never locked in combat. The unit may be shot in the following shooting phase and the vehicle can just drive away, possibly tank shocking the unit.
Only if the unit is still in base contact with the vehicle does combat continue in your assault phase.
Finally you must have the possibility of causing at least a glancing hit in order to assault a vehicle, now this would mean that a Scout squad could assault a Razorback, but not for instance a Land Raider.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/587704/6684857.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/587704/6684857.page GMT Tarpitting a Razorback - Rules vs Reality BRB FaQ p4 says you can charge an enemy unit that you cannot hurt.

*edit*

Which frankly seems a bit silly, but could be used as a bit of a boost to dedicated CC units as they can't be overwatched and if they make the charge roll, helps them cover a bit of extra distance across the board.

Just curious here, could the unit then use Hit & Run in that same turn? Or is this illegal as they are not ever actually locked in CC with a vehicle?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/587704/6684868.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/587704/6684868.page GMT Tarpitting a Razorback - Rules vs Reality
 wildboar wrote:

Not true I'm afraid BRB FaQ p4 says you can charge an enemy unit that you cannot hurt.


I would have thought, given that this references the general assault rules on page 20 that the rule on page 76 stops you from assaulting vehicles you can't hurt and being a more advanced rule takes precedence.

What I mean is that the general assault rules give you permission to assault a unit you cannot hurt but that the vehicles rules specifically restrict you from assaulting vehicles you cannot hurt.

I may be totally wrong here but that is my take on it.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/587704/6684897.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/587704/6684897.page GMT Tarpitting a Razorback - Rules vs Reality
 wildboar wrote:
Not true I'm afraid BRB FaQ p4 says you can charge an enemy unit that you cannot hurt.

*edit*

Which frankly seems a bit silly, but could be used as a bit of a boost to dedicated CC units as they can't be overwatched and if they make the charge roll, helps them cover a bit of extra distance across the board.

Just curious here, could the unit then use Hit & Run in that same turn? Or is this illegal as they are not ever actually locked in CC with a vehicle?


You can charge an enemy unit you can not hurt, but you can not charge a vehicle you can not damage.

So if you have Str 3 guys charging a wraithlord (Whatever one is T8) that is okay, but they may not assault a rhino because they can not damage the back AV 10 on the rhino.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/587704/6684898.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/587704/6684898.page GMT Tarpitting a Razorback - Rules vs Reality
 Voodoo_Chile wrote:
 wildboar wrote:

Not true I'm afraid BRB FaQ p4 says you can charge an enemy unit that you cannot hurt.


I would have thought, given that this references the general assault rules on page 20 that the rule on page 76 stops you from assaulting vehicles you can't hurt and being a more advanced rule takes precedence.

What I mean is that the general assault rules give you permission to assault a unit you cannot hurt but that the vehicles rules specifically restrict you from assaulting vehicles you cannot hurt.

I may be totally wrong here but that is my take on it.


Good point, the faq does reference p20 and doesn't mention p76 at all so I think your interpretation is correct. You'd of thought they'd of put that in there just to be totally clear. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/587704/6684907.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/587704/6684907.page GMT Tarpitting a Razorback - Rules vs Reality
 Roger Dorn wrote:


TB: You can't. My unit is already engaged. You can't assault a unit that is assaulting another unit.


This is also wrong. You can assault a unit that is assaulting another unit.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/587704/6685229.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/587704/6685229.page GMT Tarpitting a Razorback - Rules vs Reality
 Roger Dorn wrote:
Enemy's turn he moves his big armor right into my LOS. However, his last move has the one remaining unit from a scout squad assault my Razorback. Doesn't have a CC weapon, no grenades. Does no damage.

You can't assault a vehicle you can't hurt.
Regardless, scouts DO have krak grenades, and their base S4 attacks CAN hurt Razorbacks, as you always strike against rear (AV10) armour. So that scout is permitted to assault.


Me: I will shoot the tank with my razorback.
TB: You can't. It's locked in combat.
Me: What? That one guy can't damage my Razorback at all! I'm ignoring him. It's a tank after all.
TB: You can't. He has you locked in.

Vehicles cannot be locked in combat (walkers excepted). Your Razorback can shoot whatever it pleases.


Me: Okay, so the Razorback shoots him then.
TB: Transports can't assault. No passengers means you can't shoot him either.

Since TB's scout is not locked in combat, the Razorback can shoot him. You DO have to draw LOS from the vehicle's weapons or fireports if you want to shoot, so there are cases where models can hug the vehicle to avoid being shot at.
A small detail extra: Razorbacks do not have fire points, so their passengers can't shoot out. They COULD disembark - as long as there is a free access point (the Razorback has 3), your passengers could disembark and shoot. If all the access points are blocked by enemy models (e.g., boyz swarming a transport), you can still perform an emergency disembarkation to get your dudes out.


Me: This is ridiculous. Okay, the ten guys on the wall easily within range will gun him down.
TB: You can't. He is locked in combat so another unit can't shoot him.

As noted above, that scout is not locked in combat, so you can shoot at him.


Me: Fine. My nearby squad will assault him.
TB: You can't. My unit is already engaged. You can't assault a unit that is assaulting another unit.

This is a big misunderstanding of the rules on his part - you CAN assault a unit that is locked in combat with another unit, all you have to do is to get your units into base contact during a charge.
Regardless, the scout is not locked in combat, so even his misunderstanding of the rules doesn't apply.


1. How right and/or wrong was he with his various rules statements?

He's very wrong, across the board. Show him Page 76 (the vehicle assault rules). His misunderstanding about the charge rules probably come from a misreading of page 20, which covers the charge sub-phase (don't skim it, take your time to parse what it's really saying).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/587704/6685454.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/587704/6685454.page GMT Tarpitting a Razorback - Rules vs Reality
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/587704/6685587.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/587704/6685587.page GMT Tarpitting a Razorback - Rules vs Reality
coredump wrote:
So. Much. Wrong.



I think that in order to have and/or continue a conversation, we're going to need a bit more.

thanks!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/587704/6685756.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/587704/6685756.page GMT Tarpitting a Razorback - Rules vs Reality
1.You cant shoot in to an assault.
2. Vehicles can't assault (they can tank shock though)
3. You can assault vehicles you can't hurt (thanks to faq)

Everything else was completely backwards. You should have been able to shoot your razorback at the tank. the unit on the wall should have been able to shoot the scouts, and then the nearby squad would have been able to shoot, then assault the scouts.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/587704/6685865.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/587704/6685865.page GMT Tarpitting a Razorback - Rules vs Reality
 Icculus wrote:
3. You can assault vehicles you can't hurt (thanks to faq).


The FAQ does not say what you think it does.

The FAQ clarifies the basic rules regarding assaulting. Vehicle rules are more specific and as such would trump the FAQ.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/587704/6685890.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/587704/6685890.page GMT