<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "650pt Blood Angels list"]]>

<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "650pt Blood Angels list"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/14.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net 650pt Blood Angels list
First week is 650pts and NO FLIERS

Here's my list:

Mephiston

5x assault marines in a razorback
one melta, serg with dual plasma pistols, razorback has twin heavy bolter

5x assault marines with jump packs
one melta, serg with hand flamer / bolt pistol

6x scout snipers
one missile launcher, camo cloaks

I know I'm going to have a real hard time with Blood Angels, but I'm trying to be as competitive as possible. I'm really hoping that at that low of a point game, Mephiston will be able to just steam roll anything that doesn't have a 2+ save, and no one will be able to bring enough plasma to bear against him to really be a threat.

Other than that, one troop choice with a razorback, one troop choice that will hang back on my side of the board in cover, and one troop choice that will deep strike, so hopefully they'll be resilient enough to make up for the fact that there'll only be 16 of em.

Thoughts? Am I going to get murdered?
I'm realllllyyyy not used to playing at such a low point value. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6706478.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6706478.page GMT 650pt Blood Angels list
I'd try to get your jump pack squad to 10 strong. Drop the plasma pistols, missile launcher, 6th scout etc.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6707295.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6707295.page GMT 650pt Blood Angels list cc...

i'd personally drop Mephiston, he's horribly expensive for such a low point game...

i'd also drop the scouts and try get a sternguard squad with a drop pod in, they're pretty versatile with their different firing options.

sanguinary priests will also be helpful if you're gonna be cc orientated since you want your asm to stay alive as long as possible to get into cc....]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6707324.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6707324.page GMT 650pt Blood Angels list And the Scouts can keep a home objective. Scoring is always +

Agreed about the Priests, tough.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6707391.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6707391.page GMT 650pt Blood Angels list http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6707519.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6707519.page GMT Re:650pt Blood Angels list
They start at 125, and you're basically an idiot if you don't give them all combi weapons, because that's one of the few bargains in the BA dex, so now you're up to 150, add the drop pod and you're at 185.
That's almost as much as Meph. The sternies would be slightly more durable for their point cost against plasma, lance and lascannon fire, but they'd still drop, and they'd be HUGELY less durable against S4 fire and anything AP3.
They'd also be exposed to more firepower since they have to shoot it out where as Meph can close distance and assault pretty quickly due to being jump and fleet.

I'd also still need an HQ, and maybe you haven't noticed but Blood Angel HQs are pretty overpriced and garbage. Tycho and Dante are okay in some circumstances, but they need unit synergy, and cost almost as much as Meph. A 100 pt Librarian with a forcefield is probably the best 'cheap' HQ I can drop, but he needs units to screen with that forcefield to be worth the point cost, and I won't have that at 650.

Man, I swear, how garbage the rest of the BA dex is compared to even normal marines (let alone eldar or tau...) is the only thing that keeps me from feeling like a total cheesedick for running Meph lists so often and at points this low...

Also, I don't own a drop pod... I mean, I have one I made out of a Big Mac box, but for league play?

Also I'd LOVE to get my assault squad up to 10, since that's what I normally run with Meph, but if I have to drop plasma pistols and heavy weapons to do it, I'm not sure if that's a sacrifice I can make. I feel like I need some anti 2+ sv units, since that's literally the only thing Meph can't steamroll. If my razorback can roll up to a squad of terminators and drop 3 of them in one round of shooting, I feel like I'll be doing okay.

As for the sanguinary priest, they're easily my fav unit in the blood angel dex, but with this few models on the board, I don't think I'll be able to get the sort of infantry blob going that makes them so efficient.

We're going to be scaling up the points each week as this league goes on. I'm going to add a corbulo to the razorback, and get the assault squad up to 10 very quickly. That way even if Meph gets shot with a lascannon, he'll get a 5+ cover save for being screened by 10 assault marines, and a 5+ feel no pain save.

Throw in some anti-air, an Inquisitor, another assault squad and maybe some honor guard, a librarian dreadnought with wings and a force field, maybeee I'll do okay...

Anyway, thanks for the advice ya'll! I'll post how the game goes.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6707794.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6707794.page GMT 650pt Blood Angels list http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6708151.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6708151.page GMT Re:650pt Blood Angels list HQ choice, ironically, at a low point level.
Forcefield librarian works best with a blob of vehicles, tycho works best with TONS of infantry on the field, and Dante works best deep striking with some beast squad. I can't swing any of that at 650pts, and every other HQ blows.

Once we get to higher point levels, he'll be screened by a 10 man assault squad and a priest, so he'll have a 55.5% chance of shrugging off any AP2 wound he takes, not even factoring in a timely corbulo re-roll, and even at this level he'll have a razorback and five assault marines to potentially hide behind. He won't be totally naked.

I'm also sorta banking on people not bringing lists with that much AP2 to the table at 650pts. I mean, as the owner of a guard detachment, I realize how easy it is to mass cheap plasma guns, but what are the odds? I feel like massed shuriken fire is the scariest thing that might hit him. Also I'd love to see the rending unit that can kill him in hand to hand.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
My mephiston actually has really bad luck and often dies in the worst ways possible. He blows his brain up trying to cast powers waaaayyyyy more often than 1/18 times, not even factoring in feel no pain, and one time he flew on top of a huge bunker with walls taller than a marine, had a bunch of chaos terminators climb a ladder to surround him, failed his test to fly down, got literally trapped into a corner and beaten down

for every time he kills a swarmlord, or an entire nob bike squad or something, something that bad happens]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6708280.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6708280.page GMT Re:650pt Blood Angels list hq's I'm not certain how they function in 5th edition books like yours as I play da but I find that they make great hq's I'm heavy assault build marine armies. And at their point value having fearless, fear, a 4up invul for free just makes them rock solid.

One thing to think about for the future op would be to start a da list. Da's fast moving hard hitting units would mix well with ba assault marines, baal preds and ba speeders.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6709732.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6709732.page GMT Re:650pt Blood Angels list BA dex, you can get a chappie in the normal space marine dex for 105 pts, in the BA dex he's 155.

He's got an extra wound, but it's not worth it for that huge of a point sink, considering how easy he is to be incinerated, and he's still not much of a threat on his own, or in challenges.

Might as well kick in an extra 95 pts and get an absolute monster that can single handedly wreck monstrous creatures, tanks and entire squads.

And I actually did start a tiny DA detachement, just in case I ever wanted to splash some flakk missiles, or deep strike some deathwing or combo that shrouded landspeeder with my cover forcefield.

Haven't ever actually used em tho.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6709946.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6709946.page GMT Re:650pt Blood Angels list

Walnuts wrote:
Yeah, see, that's the problem with the BA dex, you can get a chappie in the normal space marine dex for 105 pts, in the BA dex he's 155.

He's got an extra wound, but it's not worth it for that huge of a point sink, considering how easy he is to be incinerated, and he's still not much of a threat on his own, or in challenges.

Might as well kick in an extra 95 pts and get an absolute monster that can single handedly wreck monstrous creatures, tanks and entire squads.

And I actually did start a tiny DA detachement, just in case I ever wanted to splash some flakk missiles, or deep strike some deathwing or combo that shrouded landspeeder with my cover forcefield.

Haven't ever actually used em tho.

Sure, but chaplains are really there to make your death company a death factory, so not what you use in a low point game but not a point sink.

But you said the problem for mephiston; everything he does is single handed. If he needs more hands to do something, like fight a DP then he's on a looser. AP 2 and 2+ saves render him pretty useless. Even the captain who I talk about below has a 4++ and can get up to AP2.

If I were you I'd just get a captain with a Jump pack and a power weapon, as I said above he's quite good. Free up some points for the assault marines and a sanguinary priest. Sure, it's pretty boring, but I only play BA in tournaments and have found that the captain holds himself really well with nice stats and a good selection of wargear that OK may need a bit of a price drop for the more expensive stuff, but is fine otherwise.

Oh, and I'd get rid of the hand flamer. I don't know about your experiences with them but mine are not great.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710017.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710017.page GMT Re:650pt Blood Angels list A dreadnought will kill a dreadnought, a tank will kill a tank, 5 assault marines with a gun will kill maybe one tank or five enemy marines. Meph can walk through several of what I just mentioned.

If an iron halo is the only advantage the captain has, come on. If meph is screened by troops when he gets shot, he gets a 5+ cover save, if he's near a sang priest he gets a 5+ FNP against even a hit from a demolisher cannon. Factor in that he can't get instant deathed, where as a captain can get instant deathed super easy, and ole Meph takes a pounding against even AP2 weapons wayyyyyy better.

Not to mention the fact that regular marine captains are 20 points cheaper with the gear I just mentioned, and have chapter traits (and access to better gear should they want to spring for a few more points), so if I were to fight someone with the same style army as me, just a dif chapter, I'd be at a disadvantage immediately.

No bueno.

The only reason I can ever see to take a captain, is if that captain is captain tycho and I'm using him to make a massively large infantry army Ld 10, 'cause that is tits.

Also death company are horrendously overpriced. They never make their points back. Using a chaplain to make them 'better' is what we call spit-shining a turd where I come from.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710124.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710124.page GMT 650pt Blood Angels list BA Reclusiarch sucks. BA captain sucks. The ONLY two HQs in the codex are level 1 libby and Mephiston. You might as well pretend the rest don't exist. Because they're all awful. Not kinda bad. AWFUL.

You don't need the chaplain there to make DC slaughter people in HTH. You need a way to keep DC from being shot to pieces en route. And keep them from being spoiling assaulted. Which there really isn't a way to do, so you might as well leave DC at home and use scoring ASM. DC are ass terrible. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710162.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710162.page GMT Re:650pt Blood Angels list http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710172.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710172.page GMT 650pt Blood Angels list BA players don't want to hear. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710187.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710187.page GMT Re:650pt Blood Angels list BA have been doing okay against chaos, orks, other marines, 'nids and dark eldar in 6th, but I have to take nothing but A game units and it will never be an easy fight, like, there is NO wiggle room.

Inquisitor allies help, guard detachments help, too (so much for the emperor's finest!).

I've been playing blood angels since the late 90s, so I'm used to them having their ups and downs. It's still a super fun army for me, and I'm sure it can't be more than a year or two before they get their new dex, and then the last two years will just seem like running with weights on, right? riiiiiight?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710197.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710197.page GMT 650pt Blood Angels list BA lost literally every good gimmick from 5th except fast vehicles. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710232.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710232.page GMT Re:650pt Blood Angels list BA still have a few tricks up their sleeve, they're just so overpriced and inflexible compared to other marines have a pathetic chapter trait.

I'd honestly be happy with a new dex that doesn't force me into using vet sergs and ten man tac squads, drops the points on a few things, adds some AA, relics, warlord traits, and a chapter trait that doesn't blow. I don't think much more tweaking than that needs to be done to at least bring BA in line with other marines.

But yeah, things like having Dante go from I7 to I1 on the charge really really hurt...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710250.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710250.page GMT Re:650pt Blood Angels list

Walnuts wrote:
BA still have a few tricks up their sleeve, they're just so overpriced and inflexible compared to other marines have a pathetic chapter trait.

I'd honestly be happy with a new dex that doesn't force me into using vet sergs and ten man tac squads, drops the points on a few things, adds some AA, relics, warlord traits, and a chapter trait that doesn't blow. I don't think much more tweaking than that needs to be done to at least bring BA in line with other marines.

But yeah, thinks like having Dante go from I7 to I1 on the charge really really hurt...

Dante, for his price, would still be a joke compared to smashf%^&er.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710258.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710258.page GMT Re:650pt Blood Angels list

Walnuts wrote:
Dude, a blood angel captain with a power weapon and a jump pack is 140 pts. That's only 110 less than mephiston. The captain won't be able to kill monstrous creatures, he won't be able to kill vehicles, be won't be able to kill 2+ save dudes, he won't be able to soak up hits from low strength attacks (if he gets surrounded in hand to hand he'll drop, and if he get sprayed with bolt fire he'll drop), and whatever I can add in for the extra 110 points won't make up the difference.
A dreadnought will kill a dreadnought, a tank will kill a tank, 5 assault marines with a gun will kill maybe one tank or five enemy marines. Meph can walk through several of what I just mentioned.

If an iron halo is the only advantage the captain has, come on. If meph is screened by troops when he gets shot, he gets a 5+ cover save, if he's near a sang priest he gets a 5+ FNP against even a hit from a demolisher cannon. Factor in that he can't get instant deathed, where as a captain can get instant deathed super easy, and ole Meph takes a pounding against even AP2 weapons wayyyyyy better.

Not to mention the fact that regular marine captains are 20 points cheaper with the gear I just mentioned, and have chapter traits (and access to better gear should they want to spring for a few more points), so if I were to fight someone with the same style army as me, just a dif chapter, I'd be at a disadvantage immediately.

No bueno.

The only reason I can ever see to take a captain, is if that captain is captain tycho and I'm using him to make a massively large infantry army Ld 10, 'cause that is tits.

Also death company are horrendously overpriced. They never make their points back. Using a chaplain to make them 'better' is what we call spit-shining a turd where I come from.

I don't think that comparing things to vanilla variants is really useful, as you're not going to switch to vanilla, are you? BA captains could be five times the price as standard marines, but it's not REALLY relevant is it? Sure you could say that they could bring this for that price and I'll have less stuff but won't that be the case with every single codex at different levels? The only reason it's come up here is that the comparison is more transparent, being between two units that have the same name and stats. Focusing on what other armies can isn't a good plan as there are so many variations that you can come up against trying to anticipate that they might be having captains at cheaper prices isn't how you should build your army, you should do it by what the strengths and weaknesses of your codex are.

I know that this is pretty basic stuff and you all probably know this, but I just feel that people keep trying to draw comparisons to outside the codex, which isn't relevant unless you're thinking of changing.

And this still is a 650 pt game; there maybe one or two things that can insta kill a captain but not many. And IMO a Jump pack AP2 captain with a 4++ and two sanguinary priests is more useful than mephiston in a low point game. Most of what I hear seems revolved around killing DPs and and taking out lots of units, but in such a small game he's not needed. I think I myself got a a little caught up in arguing against mephy overall, not just in this scenario. Now that I think about it Mephy is really overkill. You won't need to take out any winged hive tyrants or DPs.

But what Martel said above kind of agitated me a bit, saying all BA HQs are crap. The only one I don't rate is sanguinor and that's just because I think the model looks stupid and refuse to buy it. I seriously use them all competitively and would not rate ANY of them to be bad, which is why I get a bit irritated when people say that "They suck" or "are terrible" as there are no units in 40k that are at all absolutes. For example, Martel said that that "DC are ass terrible" that's not true as I have had entire games won by them. He may have some bad experiences so at most he can say "DC are USUALLY ass terrible". But I digress.

To get back to the actual list; I don't think that Mephy is necessarily uncompetitive, but at this level of play I think that you will get more mileage out of a captain and some sanguinary priests. Otherwise I think that your list is fine; maybe and infernus pistol instead of a hand flamer on the sergeant of the Assault squad.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710262.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710262.page GMT Re:650pt Blood Angels list
if the latter is the case, I'm not hatin', everyone has to learn the game some how, but leave the adults to discuss actual tactics

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Walnuts wrote:
BA still have a few tricks up their sleeve, they're just so overpriced and inflexible compared to other marines have a pathetic chapter trait.

I'd honestly be happy with a new dex that doesn't force me into using vet sergs and ten man tac squads, drops the points on a few things, adds some AA, relics, warlord traits, and a chapter trait that doesn't blow. I don't think much more tweaking than that needs to be done to at least bring BA in line with other marines.

But yeah, thinks like having Dante go from I7 to I1 on the charge really really hurt...

Dante, for his price, would still be a joke compared to smashf%^&er.

smashf%^&er?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710273.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710273.page GMT 650pt Blood Angels list
What giraffe said is completely correct, in a 650 game (and all small point games) I've found durability of your ENTIRE army is alot more preferable to 1 model, IG just need 3 squads of guardsmen and a commisar and memphiston is useless for 3-4 turns while they pepper the crap out of your lone biker & assault marines (to provide only 1 example of a problematic situation).

To be honest I can see this list struggling against necrons, orks, eldar, nids & ig.... the mass of bodies could quite easily bog mephiston down and then the rest of your army is in a bit of a pinch.... and if a necron lord keeps getting up then memphiston is never leaving combat

2 squads of asm with 3+, 5+ cover and a fnp roll I personally find alot more useful than mephiston.... but again that's my preference, use what works for you I suppose....

I'd love to hear how the games go nonetheless (you might even convince me to use mephiston in future...)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710390.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710390.page GMT Re:650pt Blood Angels list

Walnuts wrote:
giraffe, if you're suggesting I take a captain with a power axe or a power fist and two sanguinary priests for some reason (which would now cost way more than mephiston), you're either trolling me or you only play against literal children

if the latter is the case, I'm not hatin', everyone has to learn the game some how, but leave the adults to discuss actual tactics

Pardon? I'm offering you advice so you tell me to leave this discussion and insinuate that I am a child who doesn't have a clue what I'm talking about? You can't just say "I'm not hating" and expect me to allow you to patronise me like this when I have done nothing but try and present my honest opinion based on personal experience in a polite manner. It's very rude. I hope you did not mean it like this and that you've just not looked at what you're typing.

What I typed above did not warrant that kind of response and it seems that you have dismissed almost all of what I said without actually explaining why you thought that what I said was tactically unsound. You haven't even bothered to address most of my points, even though if you read my last paragraph I you would know I was not even saying that I disagreed with you I just thought you might appreciate my opinion on things, hence why you started this page. Clearly I was wrong.

Firstly you obviously haven't added this up in the way I suggested; It's 50 pts for a sanguinary priest, and 150 for a captain with a jump pack and power fist. Two priests for 100 + the captain for 150 is 250. Perhaps I wasn't clear. Sure, maybe one priest would be enough and this would allow you to beef up another squad with two more assault marines and another piece of wargear.

This is my opinion and I don't expect you to just agree with me instantly, but I would hope you would engage what I say with a certain degree of respect.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710408.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710408.page GMT Re:650pt Blood Angels list

Automatically Appended Next Post:

l1ttlej wrote:

What giraffe said is completely correct, in a 650 game (and all small point games) I've found durability of your ENTIRE army is alot more preferable to 1 model

but that's just it, meph actually IS more durable for his point cost than an equal amount of marines under most circumstances. it takes 180 boltgun hits to drop him. it takes 180 boltgun hits to drop SIXTY tactical marines. how many points do sixty tac marines cost?
It takes slightly less than two lascannon hits to drop a captain under any circumstances other than he's behind a wall. It takes 6 to drop meph in the clear, 13-ish, if he's behind other marines and has a priest. That's point efficient durability you won't find anywhere else in the BA dex.

Again, I'm not trying to be rude or dismissive, but please run some numbers and tell me where I'm wrong.

Also, I'm full aware the list I presented will struggle against a lot of other lists, it's a BA list, it's gonna suck no matter what, I'm just trying to minimize the suck.

Meph can pretty reliably kill 5 MEQs a tun with negligible damage taken in response, a captain or chaplain can kill 1-4 MEQs a turn, with a very high chance of dying in responce. Meph is more blob resistant than either of them. If you're suggesting a giant blob of assault marines protected by a 5+ cover save via a basic librarian HQ choice backed with a priest to give them FNP would be better at resisting enemy fire than meph, I actually agree, but I can't drop that sort of blob at 650 pts, so again, ironically meph is the good choice for low point battles.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710558.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710558.page GMT 650pt Blood Angels list
show me one game of 40k where it took 180 boltgun shots to down mephiston (and a game where someone gets 180 boltgun shots off at all) and i'll field an army of him tomorrow......

using lascannons and boltguns as your only viable study criteria...... i don't even have words to describe how moronic it is....
in a game where there are over 100 different types of weapons, both cc, shooting special wargear ect. your comparison based on boltguns is laughable

using mathshammer stats in an arguement is ridiculous.... and claiming blood angels suck on the whole besides 1 or 2 models shows that either you're not a very good player or you go based of number crushing as opposed to gaming tactics....

we're expensive, yes (no1 will debate that) but that's where the "sucking" ends... with a good solid balanced list, not hinging on a single model we're as competitive as all the other codices out there and to argue otherwise just shows a lack of experience and exposure to the game as a whole.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710610.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710610.page GMT Re:650pt Blood Angels list If one marine shoots a single boltgun shot at meph he has a 4/6 chance of hitting him, times a 1/6 chance of wounding him, times a 1/6 chance of meph failing his save.

This equals a 1.85% chance of dealing even a single wound. Seeing as how it takes FIVE wounds to drag meph down, this translates into 270 S4 shots at BS4 to kill him.

I don't think I'm being unreasonable saying this makes him very durable against bolter fire for his point cost, and considering the bolter is probably the most common weapon in the game, a strong factor in my high opinion of meph, especially compared to a captain or reclusarch, both of which would drop in 27 bolt gun shots at BS4, which is actually very easy to do even at low point games.

Now, no one would ever shoot that many bolt gun shots into meph because that's an entire army worth of fire power. What a waste! He's not AV11+ vehicle, but he might as well be. People will use plasma guns, and lascannons, and star cannons, and power fists and so on and so forth.

Against some of these weapons in certain circumstances, a captain with an iron halo might be slightly more resilient. If they're both totally out in the open, and taking NOTHING but plasma gun shots, a captain will go down in 10.8 shots (at BS4), Meph will go down in 11.25. That makes the captain slightly more durable than meph for his point cost!

But good lord, what an extenuating circumstance that is! An HQ, not behind cover, with no other marines, with no sanguinary priest, facing ONLY strength four to seven AP2 firepower (eight or higher would instant kill the chaplain or captain, making meph, once again, significantly more durable as would the presence of any weak, non AP2 shots, even for his point cost).

Whereas look at some of the other circumstances: Bolter shots? That's pretty likely. Shoota shots? Pretty likely too. Blob of infantry? Pretty likely. Pulse rifle shots? Also pretty likely. Meph is more durable in all those circumstances.

Let's say we're playing smart here. Let's say cover is involved. Let's say a priest (singular, two priests is a waste of points no matter what). Meph would have a 55.5% chance of shrugging off any AP2 wound he takes, up to and including a demolisher cannon hit. If plasma gun fire is coming in at BS4, it would take 20.25 shots to drop him.
Assuming your captain is making full use of his independent character status, is in a ten man squad, with 'look out sir' and all that, how well are those 11 marines going to fare against over twenty plasma gun shots?

Even if the durability edge, per points, goes SLIGHTLY to the captain, under very rare circumstances, then what's the end game? He makes it to hand to hand?
Meph will lose to terminators, meganobz, oblits, and other special characters with 2+ saves and high strength AP2 weapons (calgar, abbadon, etc). THAT'S IT.
The captain will lose to: non-BA captains, infantry blobs, dreadnoughts, monstrous creatures, terminators, meganobz, oblits, and other special characters with AP3 weapons
significantly bigger list, right?

Makes 250 pts for a character that can do some damage while taking a pounding seem like a bargain compared to 150 points for a character that is a threat to actually very little in the game and can literally be one shotted by a krak missile or power fist
sorry, is a krak missile or power fist too rare and unusual of a weapon for me to reference in a game with HUNDREDS of weapons? You're right, I probably won't face those, it'll be Particle Whips and Stinger Salvos all the way down.

I've been playing blood angels for 15 years across four editions, and part of a 'balanced list' is not wasting 150 pts on an HQ that will never make them back. Maybe you have the luxury of dropping a Reclusiarch into a mass of guardsmen and having him go to town, but I'm going to assume the opponents I'm going to face actually know what they're doing.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710734.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6710734.page GMT Re:650pt Blood Angels list

Walnuts wrote:
right, so two priests without jump packs would escort my captain with a jump pack how? you're demonstrating a very strong lack of understanding of the rules here, I'm actually trying very hard not to be rude, but what you're suggesting is on par with 'give your captain TWO storm shields'

I don't think you are trying not to be rude, seeing as you haven't apologised for talking in such a rude manner, have continued to be berate me and are being so dismissive of people trying to help you. I am in no way demonstrating a lack of understanding, in fact you're demonstrating that you don't bother to read my posts. I said that if that if one priest is adequate then use the extra points to enhance another squad. Alternatively one sanguinary priest would escort the angels in the razorback, the other the assault squad. What I have done is forgotten about the 25pts to put a jump pack on a priest so he can keep up, which you seem to think means I don't know how to play the game. And if you think I am misunderstanding something you you don't understand me right thing to do is correct me and I will understand why or why not something works. Don't be an ass to me about it.

But then why are you posting? You haven't seemed to take opinions on board and are just trying to defend your list against the constructive criticisms about the list the people have given you rather than using it to make adjustments and slight changes. I suggest swapping the hand flamer, but you haven't deemed that worthy to mention in you rebuttal. You obviously think that your list can't be improved and don't need help, which is fine. Just don't go around looking for advice only to spit it back at the people trying to help you. I haven't insulted you about you opinions on how to improve this list, but you have insulted me several times for doing so myself.

Please take this into consideration when replying to those that are trying to help you]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6711134.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6711134.page GMT 650pt Blood Angels list BA HQs are mathematically garbage. This isn't "hatin"; it's mathematical analysis. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6711685.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6711685.page GMT Re:650pt Blood Angels list

thetallestgiraffe wrote:

Walnuts wrote:
right, so two priests without jump packs would escort my captain with a jump pack how? you're demonstrating a very strong lack of understanding of the rules here, I'm actually trying very hard not to be rude, but what you're suggesting is on par with 'give your captain TWO storm shields'

What I have done is forgotten about the 25pts to put a jump pack on a priest so he can keep up

See kid, here's the problem, when I said 'two priests and a captain ends up costing more than meph'
you replied with 'you don't know my math! run them naked, 150+50+50=250'
so i said 'then the priests wouldn't be able to keep up with the captain'
so your response is 'i forgot! give one a jump pack! only 25 pts!'
so now their point cost is over 250, we're back to square one

This is very circular logic, and there is some serious cognitive dissonance going on here. Advice like that isn't helpful, regardless of the subject being discussed.

The gentleman a few posts above yours who posted 'ditch the plasma, get more boots on the ground' actually posted some sound advice I'm strongly considering, however, just because I haven't gotten a ton of sound advice on how to totally restructure my list doesn't mean this thread has been worthless to me. If you're asking "what am I doing wrong here" and you're not getting many good responses, it's a bit of a confidence boost, and I'm okay with getting that.

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Martel732 wrote:
It's not personal preference. All other BA HQs are mathematically garbage. This isn't "hatin"; it's mathematical analysis.

Yo, mart, how do you feel about tycho in a high point list that is very infantry heavy? I feel like giving 8 or more squads Ld 10 is worth the fact that he won't kill 175 points worth of the enemy.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6711846.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6711846.page GMT Re:650pt Blood Angels list

Walnuts wrote:

thetallestgiraffe wrote:
Walnuts wrote:
right, so two priests without jump packs would escort my captain with a jump pack how? you're demonstrating a very strong lack of understanding of the rules here, I'm actually trying very hard not to be rude, but what you're suggesting is on par with 'give your captain TWO storm shields'

What I have done is forgotten about the 25pts to put a jump pack on a priest so he can keep up

You are still being disrespectful, so this is the last post I will make as you obviously have not learnt why you have been sounding like an ass and I have made two posts asking you to be more civil which you totally ignored, such as when you quoted me you cut out the parts asking you to stop being such a condescending arse.

The way you have summarised what I have said by making my words sound like they were made by spoilt child, I find insulting considering that I put time and effort into my posts, locating my codex to look up information so I could help you the best I can. You have just spat all over that. You basically say I am spamming useless posts and have no idea what it is I'm talking about.

I don't know how you speak to people where you come from and I don't care. I have put a myself to a certain standard when typing a message to you and you don't seem to think I am worthy of having it returned.

You have totally ignored the TWO other times I have said that you could use the 50 extra points for something else. You refuse to move on and continue to call me a child. You have never met me before and I have taken pride in trying to put effort into making my posts look presentable to try and get my points across, something which you don't seem to appreciate.

To be frank; I don't give a craps whether you take my opinions on board or not. I just want to be shown some damn respect for putting effort in and trying to help you, as you can be bloody sure that I don't talk to anyone like this, on the internet or outside of it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6712091.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6712091.page GMT 650pt Blood Angels list
but i digress back to the point, maths doesn't win you games, and fanatically defending your choices with mathematics, likewise doesn't prove anything except a lack of ability on your part to take opinions on board, and give reasonable responses.....

and yes the maths is indeed very basic (also completely wrong) emphasising your complete misuse of it.. perhaps a dummies guide to statistics might clarify a few things, and prevent these types of pointless number crunching debates....

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6712303.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6712303.page GMT Re:650pt Blood Angels list
You're spending a lot of time telling me that I'm wrong, without telling me why I'm wrong, and somehow I'm the arrogant one?

Just re-read your post, AND you're attacking me for being American? And I'm the arrogant jerk here? Are you trying to drown me in irony? You know, if I were going to take cheap shots based on someone's country of birth there might be ONE OR TWO things I could say about South Africa.... *cough*apartheid*cough*
The level of cognitive dissonance in this thread is unreal. It was a good discussion on tactics until you and giraffe showed up.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6712373.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6712373.page GMT 650pt Blood Angels list http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6712414.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6712414.page GMT Re:650pt Blood Angels list Just kidding! You seem civil.

See, I love the blob of assault marines with a priest, I just think it's too hard to work in at this point level. Dropping meph to a captain only saves me 100 pts, and a priest with a jump pack (and no weapons, which is a lil weird) is 75pts, so I'd get one extra marine.
Dropping the razorback also only saves me 20 points. That's one more marine
So basically I'd have two six man squads, my captain, and a priest.
I'm pretty skeptical that would do more damage than two five man squads, a razorback, and meph.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6712430.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6712430.page GMT Re:650pt Blood Angels list

Walnuts wrote:

thetallestgiraffe wrote:
Walnuts wrote:
right, so two priests without jump packs would escort my captain with a jump pack how? you're demonstrating a very strong lack of understanding of the rules here, I'm actually trying very hard not to be rude, but what you're suggesting is on par with 'give your captain TWO storm shields'

What I have done is forgotten about the 25pts to put a jump pack on a priest so he can keep up

Martel732 wrote:
It's not personal preference. All other BA HQs are mathematically garbage. This isn't "hatin"; it's mathematical analysis.

Yo, mart, how do you feel about tycho in a high point list that is very infantry heavy? I feel like giving 8 or more squads Ld 10 is worth the fact that he won't kill 175 points worth of the enemy.

In theory that's decent, but I find myself taking very few leadership tests. My squads are either a) mostly intact or b) obliterated. But I play against very potent lists. For me, Tycho is useless, but if you find yourself taking a ton of tests, he's not horrible.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and for your other question: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Chapter_Master_Smashfucker

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l1ttlej wrote:
wow you are so arrogant it has unfortunately just spoilt what could have been an enjoyable discussion of tactics and variance of units...... it's unfortunate but i suppose that's what happens when one is brought up in a society that is so sure of being superior to everyone else....

but i digress back to the point, maths doesn't win you games, and fanatically defending your choices with mathematics, likewise doesn't prove anything except a lack of ability on your part to take opinions on board, and give reasonable responses.....

and yes the maths is indeed very basic (also completely wrong) emphasising your complete misuse of it.. perhaps a dummies guide to statistics might clarify a few things, and prevent these types of pointless number crunching debates....

Unfortunately, much of 40K is determined at list construction. Especially now that huge volumes of dice are being rolled. The law of large numbers of dice come into play.

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This list would function like this: use Meph to kill all the enemy troops and then try to gun down threats to meph with your actual army. I might try to get a las/plas razorback to that effect.

"But what Martel said above kind of agitated me a bit, saying all BA HQs are crap. The only one I don't rate is sanguinor and that's just because I think the model looks stupid and refuse to buy it."

You would be dead wrong. Dante sucks. Seth sucks. Reclusiarch sucks. Level 2 libby sucks. Captain is probably the worst HQ in the game atm. Astorath is bad and lets you spam bad units. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6712523.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6712523.page GMT Re:650pt Blood Angels list
See, that's what these simpletons don't get, either you're going to face a captain who is similarly equipped to yours but way cheaper, or is more well equipped and SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful than your captain. I don't like the prospect of fighting either.

Or uh, nahhh, that iron hands guy isn't real. You're just an arrogant american who doesn't know nuthin' 'bout maths. Take more chaplains.

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"And if you also got the Warlord Trait that gives you an EXTRA +1 to your FnP, then your opponent may as well save himself the trouble and surrender."

lollin]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6712588.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6712588.page GMT 650pt Blood Angels list GW is masterful at putting units into codices that serve no functional purpose. Why use a chaplain, when a libby can use prescience and affect your shooting AND HTH for an ENTIRE game turn? Or give out SoS to multiple units?

Mephiston has a unique niche in that any vehicle he touches, dies. Any MC he touches, dies. He slices and dices troops. But he can't touch smash$%%^er or any other EW IC with a 2+ save, so that squad must be shot.

That's where the BA fall apart. We don't have enough throw weight to gun down units that we have to shoot AND still have our fluffy CC elements. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6712626.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6712626.page GMT Re:650pt Blood Angels list sv unit my opponent has is trying to run from meph, where he's trying to run from every 2+ save unit they have.

I think 'yackity sax' should be the soundtrack for my warhammer games from now on.

I honestly don't know what I'd do against smash#$%^er, luckily haven't fought one yet. Tar pit him with guard maybe?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6712656.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6712656.page GMT Re:650pt Blood Angels list

Walnuts wrote:
Yeah, I know what you mean. A lot of my games turn into cat and mouse maneuvering exercises where every non- 2+ sv unit my opponent has is trying to run from meph, where he's trying to run from every 2+ save unit they have.

I think 'yackity sax' should be the soundtrack for my warhammer games from now on.

I honestly don't know what I'd do against smash#$%^er, luckily haven't fought one yet. Tar pit him with guard maybe?

He's usually with bikes or a gravstar. The gravstar just autowins against BA, but with bikes, you can try pure dakka. I use smash$%%er, and with his grav biker back up, he's kinda hard to tarpit. Seer council can do it. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6712689.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6712689.page GMT Re:650pt Blood Angels list
You know, this might make me sound like a scrub, but i'm not sure if I've ever fought tau once

glad I waited until 6th ed to try and get my hands dirty on that one...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6712712.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6712712.page GMT Re:650pt Blood Angels list

Walnuts wrote:
friggin' gravstar

You know, this might make me sound like a scrub, but i'm not sure if I've ever fought tau once

glad I waited until 6th ed to try and get my hands dirty on that one...

If no one plays them, then you have a very good excuse

. It's not that entertaining. You spend the whole game trying to kill their markerlights and trying to lock up the Riptides in HTH. They usually ion accelerate you to death before you can, though. Usually very boring matches. I'm very good at packing my BA back up, though. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6712731.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6712731.page GMT Re:650pt Blood Angels list

Martel732 wrote:

Walnuts wrote:
friggin' gravstar

You know, this might make me sound like a scrub, but i'm not sure if I've ever fought tau once

glad I waited until 6th ed to try and get my hands dirty on that one...

If no one plays them, then you have a very good excuse

Haaah! I feel that.

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Won the match, was one wound on one oblit away from tabling my opponent, meph took two rounds of fire from a pair of obliterators (good thing he wasn't a captain or a chaplain, amirite?), then proceeded to kill a chaos lord, a squad of plague marines and a rhino. Didn't lose a single unit. 8-0 victory points. So glad I didn't listen to any of you jokers.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6712750.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/588912/6712750.page GMT