<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Assault and then not get shot to death"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/16.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Assault and then not get shot to death Also forgive for not reading too far back in the sub-forum list for other ideas similar to this.

Assault units

In the games I've played or watched (5 total), it seems like there are two problems with assault units that stand out.

1) Getting assault units into melee combat before getting shot off the board.
2) After assault units defeat their opposing unit...they get shot off the board.

I'll admit once the units get into melee they are very effective. Getting them there and not getting peppered afterwards makes them kind of a one-shot weapon.

Getting there:
** Create a Special Rule to allow a model to assault after deployment from a transport. (Drop pod armies would love this one and it's straight forward....so it's probably been suggested before.)

Survival After the Blood Bath:
** The same Special Rule that allows assault from disembarkation would allow a consolidation move of 2d6" instead of d6" after the Finish Assault Phase Step.
** Further the rule would allow the unit to reach base contact with another enemy unit and re-lock into close combat. This re-lock does not confer additional fight sub-phases but would be subject to overwatch.

Why I would suggest this addition:

It seems like a dedicated assault unit is still pretty effective in melee. Khonre Berserkers, Kharn, Death Company, TH/SS termies....all cut a swath. But the moment they run out of targets to swing at the opponents ranged units unload on them. Vanilla assault marines are widely disregarded except for fluffy lists. DC is ignored as overpriced glass cannons. Sternguard vets outclass Vanguards (from what i read)

In my last game Kharn and a unit of zerkers finished cleaning DW termi blood off their CCW's and the question was asked...because we are new...is "can we consolidate D6" into base contact with another unit." The answer of which is no, can't be any closer than 1" from any enemy model. So on my next movement and shooting phases I backed off my remaining units from the zerkers and then scorched them off the table with my range units.

What if assault units were allowed to re-lock into base combat after their assault? Pinball from unit to unit minimizing their vulnerabilities to the mass of ranged shots 6th edition seems to be favor. Proper positioning of units would be a thing and gun lines would be very vulnerable.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/592981/6785923.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/592981/6785923.page GMT Assault and then not get shot to death
Consolidating into another unit was a thing in 4e, back then among other things a few units that are mostly useless today (Howling Banshees, for instance) had a role in the game as counter-charge units used to pin down the enemy and prevent them rolling up your gunline.

I'm hesitant to endorse such broad sweeping adjustments to the rules without corresponding adjustments to account for the consequences, I'd suggest you go out and try a few of these changes and see what you come up with.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/592981/6786086.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/592981/6786086.page GMT Assault and then not get shot to death http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/592981/6786104.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/592981/6786104.page GMT Assault and then not get shot to death
I'd be in favor of assault from non-assault vehicles if it counted as a disordered charge.

I'm most in favor of all the cheap s6-8 do-everything guns with several shots being costed more appropriately, though.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/592981/6786188.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/592981/6786188.page GMT Assault and then not get shot to death
niv-mizzet wrote:
I'm in favor of consolidate-into-combat. The downside can be overwatch, as well as not counting as charging when you resolve that first fight phase next turn.

I'd be in favor of assault from non-assault vehicles if it counted as a disordered charge.

I'm most in favor of all the cheap s6-8 do-everything guns with several shots being costed more appropriately, though.



This used to be in 4th Ed but what happened was that IG players Were being steamrolled by Genestealers moving from one combat to the next instantly. However, with Overwatch being allowed on each re-charge, and the combat not being fouht till the following assault phase, I could see this working.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/592981/6786231.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/592981/6786231.page GMT Assault and then not get shot to death
ruprecht wrote:Clever use of vehicles as cover can ameliorate the issue of being lit up as soon as the combat ends.


Yes, very true. My opponent used this to shield his raptors and berserkers for a turn. I saw what he was attempting to do and summarily removed the vehicle with a lasscannon shot and a good damage table roll. Situation dependent though, as if he had other threats in range I may have selected a different target. This is where my limited play experience become apparent. Small table and small point values are probably played very differently that bigger games.

AnomanderRake wrote:Charging from Deep Strike was a thing briefly for Vanguard Vets in 5e and came with a whole host of restrictions, charging from transports has always been very restricted to open-topped vehicles and the Land Raider's distinctive trick, neither of those should be consequence-free across-the-board additions. Broader access to some sort of assault-after-Deep-Strike rule on certain elite units wouldn't be out of place, charging out of standard vehicles would.

Consolidating into another unit was a thing in 4e, back then among other things a few units that are mostly useless today (Howling Banshees, for instance) had a role in the game as counter-charge units used to pin down the enemy and prevent them rolling up your gunline.

I'm hesitant to endorse such broad sweeping adjustments to the rules without corresponding adjustments to account for the consequences, I'd suggest you go out and try a few of these changes and see what you come up with.


Ah, I see. Thanks for the background.
I would agree that any assault buff would need to be play tested in a variety of environments to ensure the scale isn't tipped too far. I also agree in...here is that word I've been hearing about..."balance"...not only in the overall gameplay but also for the units with respect to their strengths and weaknesses. From my limited perspective the drawbacks to assault units is sub-par shooting (in range, effectiveness, and/or selection), movement in the movement phase (still tied to their unit type), and the fact they have to give up defensive positions to assault. Seems like a lot.

Now that I think about it, charging after disembarkation might be a bit too much, especially considering how overwatch does not seem to be particularly effective. Disordered charge with reduced WS (similar to a snap shot) might be something I can try out on my own table...hmm


Deadshot wrote:This used to be in 4th Ed but what happened was that IG players Were being steamrolled by Genestealers moving from one combat to the next instantly. However, with Overwatch being allowed on each re-charge, and the combat not being fouht till the following assault phase, I could see this working.


Case by Case basis would be applied to what units would receive the special rule. I'm more apt to apply the rule to units that sorely need the buff and either exclude from already balanced units or at most offer as an upgrade, costed appropriately.

Thanks for the feedback, everyone!
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/592981/6786336.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/592981/6786336.page GMT Re:Assault and then not get shot to death
However, that was before the overwatch of 6th edition. So now it helps a little, but it would still be a bad idea unless you let the overwatch of the unit being consolidated into fire at at full BS. That would "simulate" a round of shooting at the unit just standing there for a turn. But it would only be from one unit (or a whole Tau army) this way.

I will agree that this edition has really made assault armies weaker overall, but I remember the editions when shooting was worthless.

It is hard to find a balance, and no matter what someone is not going to be happy. I'm just hoping that in 7th they don't go crazy with nerfing shooting and go back to hack and slash ruling the game.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/592981/6814167.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/592981/6814167.page GMT Re:Assault and then not get shot to death
Big Joe wrote:
While being new to the forums board, I have been playing this game for years. I hated the bouncing of assault troops from one unit to the next. If one unit of assault marines got to your line, you might as well pack up the army and just get ready for the next game. I hated, HATED having to set my units just far enough apart so that the whole line would not fall to a single unit.

However, that was before the overwatch of 6th edition. So now it helps a little, but it would still be a bad idea unless you let the overwatch of the unit being consolidated into fire at at full BS. That would "simulate" a round of shooting at the unit just standing there for a turn. But it would only be from one unit (or a whole Tau army) this way.

I will agree that this edition has really made assault armies weaker overall, but I remember the editions when shooting was worthless.

It is hard to find a balance, and no matter what someone is not going to be happy. I'm just hoping that in 7th they don't go crazy with nerfing shooting and go back to hack and slash ruling the game.


Melee has only gotten worse each edition since 3rd, which was the last time they ruled the game.

Big Joe wrote:
However, that was before the overwatch of 6th edition. So now it helps a little, but it would still be a bad idea unless you let the overwatch of the unit being consolidated into fire at at full BS. That would "simulate" a round of shooting at the unit just standing there for a turn. But it would only be from one unit (or a whole Tau army) this way.


Why would that be needed though? Shooting units already get to do damage straight off the bat, whereas melee units have to get into melee to do any sort of significant damage. The entire point of the suggestion is to improve close combat, attaching such an improvement to a caveat that ignores half of the point of the change is rather counter-productive.

The problem I see with the suggestions is that the few things that currently work in CC (FMCs, beasts, cavalry) would become even more powerful. While it'd let Crusader Squads, Khorne Berzerkers and the like have some way of getting into CC and remaining a threat (as well as removing the problem of not wanting to win a combat on the charge, which is dumb as gak), Daemon Flying Circuses, Beaststars, and Seerstars would become even more hopelessly OP than they already are. I suppose that's more due to them already being very strong though, which would obviously be remedied by nerfing them specifically.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/592981/6816197.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/592981/6816197.page GMT Re:Assault and then not get shot to death
AlmightyWalrus wrote:The problem I see with the suggestions is that the few things that currently work in CC (FMCs, beasts, cavalry) would become even more powerful. While it'd let Crusader Squads, Khorne Berzerkers and the like have some way of getting into CC and remaining a threat (as well as removing the problem of not wanting to win a combat on the charge, which is dumb as gak), Daemon Flying Circuses, Beaststars, and Seerstars would become even more hopelessly OP than they already are. I suppose that's more due to them already being very strong though, which would obviously be remedied by nerfing them specifically.


That's kinda why I went with a Special Rule instead of a global change to how melee consolidation works. Right off the bat you'd get FAQ'ed unit types that would receive this rule. Those that are too OP would stay as they are.

We'll have to see how 7th shakes things up.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/592981/6828968.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/592981/6828968.page GMT