<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Proposed rules for Powerfists, chainfists, Space Marines, Eldar and Chaos"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/16.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Proposed rules for Powerfists, chainfists, Space Marines, Eldar and Chaos
#2- Change Dreadnought Close Combat weapons to +3 to Strength, AP2.

#3- Change Powerfists to +3 to Strength, AP2 and Unwieldy, Specialist weapon, reduce cost to 20 points from the usual 25 points.

#3a- Change Thunder Hammers to +3 to Strength, AP2 and Concussive, Unwieldy, Specialist weapon, reduce cost to 25 points from the usual 30 points.

#4- Change Chainfists to +4 to Strength, AP2, Unwieldy, Specialist weapon, Armourbane. When a double is rolled for Armour Penetration the Chainfist has AP1.

#5- I've always felt it wrong that Mark of Nurgle gave +1 to Toughness as I thought the skin actually got weaker and guts and intestines got exposed. So Mark of Nurgle gives +1 to wounds. Models with Mark of Nurgle, T4 and Power Armour don't suffer Instant Death from S8 weapons (unless it specifically says so of course). Models with Mark of Nurgle, T4 and Terminator Armour don't suffer Instant Death from S8 and S9 weapons (unless it specifically says so of course). Make changes to points costs.


#6- Rubric Marines have their armour completely sealed. Rubric Marines have +1 to Toughness.

#7- Khorne Berzerkers have a base of 2 Attacks. The Berzerker Champion has a base of 3 Attacks.

#8- Veterans of the Long War: +1 to LD and +1 to WS. Hatred(Space Marines). Point costs are unchanged.

#9- Champion of Chaos: If a Character with the Champion of Chaos rule kills an enemy Character in a challenge which were issued by the character with the Champion of Chaos rule, roll on the Chaos Boon table.

#10- Chaos Boon table: Roll a D6. A roll of 1: Unworthy offering. (A roll of 2: roll again: If a 1 or 2 were rolled the second time: Spawnhood. If a 3-6 were rolled the second time: choose between 23-26.) A roll of 3: choose between 31-36. A roll of 4: choose between 41-46. A roll of 5: choose between 51-56. (A roll of 6: roll again: If a 5 or 6 were rolled the second time: choose between 61-66. If a 1-4 were rolled the second time: choose between 61-64.)


#11-Terminator Armour also confers a 5+ Feel No Pain which stack with other rules which also confer a Feel No Pain roll. Models wearing Terminator Armour treat the rule Unwieldy as giving -1 to I when figuring out when to hit in close combat instead of lowering their I to 1. Immediately after a unit with a least one model wearing Terminator Armour has arrived from reserve by Deep Strike, all enemy units within 8" of a model wearing Terminator Armour count as having been hit by a weapon with the Blind special rule. Point costs are unchanged.

#12- Chaos Space Marine Aspiring Champion can get a Terminator Armour with a Combi-bolter and Power Weapon for 20 points.

#13- Chosen, Possessed, Berzerker, Aspiring Sorcerer, Plague, Noise and Havoc Champions all have access to Terminator Armour.

#14- Mutilators have S5 and T5. Mutilators can also choose a Pair of Powerfists. Mutilators have Terminator Armour instead of Fleshmetal. No changes to point cost.

#15- Obliterators have S5 and T5. Obliterators have Terminator Armour instead of Fleshmetal. Increase cost to 85 points.


#16- Any model in the Chaos Space Marines codex with Terminator Armour may outfit their combi-weapons with a close combat weapon for 5 points. This reduces the model's BS by 1.

#17- Reduce cost of Powerfist for Chaos Terminators to 4 points.

#18- Divide Chaos Dreadnought and Helbrute into two units.

#19- Rules for the current Helbrute is altered to represent the Chaos Dreadnought: Adds the option to upgrade Powerfists to Chainfists (Forgeworld has models for these) for 10 points. If the Chaos Dreadnought wield a twin-linked Heavy, Reaper Autocannon, Plasma-cannon or a twin-linked Lascannon with some kind of close combat weapon modelled on it, the Chaos Dreadnought has +1 Attack. If a Chaos Dreadnought wields two of the same close combat weapons it gets Rampage but do not get +1 Attack for wielding two close combat weapons. The base cost of the Chaos Dreadnought is 105 points.

#19a- The Chaos Dreadnought has the option of taking the Veterans of the Long War rule for 10 points.

#20- Helbrutes are Chaos Dreadnoughts which has a Possessed Chaos Champion inside or which got possessed after a Chaos Champion were put inside. Rules for the current Helbrute is altered to represent the Chaos Dreadnought: Has the Daemon and Daemonic Possession rule (BS4 remains unchanged), have the options of being Daemon of X God for a certain cost. Have the same Chainfist option as the Chaos Dreadnought and the same rules of the modelled close combat weapon and two of the same close combat weapons. Have the option of upgrading a Powerfist to a Warpsword which reduces the cost of the Helbrute by 5 points per Warpsword. The base cost of the Helbrute is 135 points.


#21- The Helbrute has the option of taking the Veterans of the Long War rule for 10 points.

#21a - Chaos Dreadnoughts and Helbrutes can wield Noise Marine weapons and Dirge Casters

#22- Daemon Princes taking from the Chaos Space Marines codex MAY be a Daemon of X God.

#23- Vehicle of X God can be taken by all vehicles in the Chaos Space Marines codex and have specific costs according to vehicle.

#24- Vehicle of Nurgle: Gains Fear and 1 Hull point.

#25- Vehicle of Khorne: Gains Fear. If it's a tank: Gains the Destroyer blades which deal an additional D6 hits in each case. If it's a Walker: gains Rage and Rampage, if it already has one or both of these rules from either a Crazed result or by having two of the same close combat weapons, it gains +2 Attacks.


#26- Vehicle of Slaanesh: Gains Fear and enemies are at -3, -2 and -1 to their LD when within of 6", 12" and 18" respectively. A Dirge Caster mounted on a Vehicle of Slaanesh has a range of 12" instead of 6".

#27- Vehicle of Tzeentch: Gains Fear. If an enemy model is in base-to-base contact in the Fight sub-phase with a Vehicle of Tzeentch, it's hit with a D6 Strength Attack with AP4 at Initiative 10 for each Vehicle of Tzeentch it's in base-to-base contact with.

#28- Either every kind of Space Marine and Chaos Space Marine in Power Armour has 6+ Feel No Pain. Plague Marines still have a 5+ Feel No Pain.

Will probably add more.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/602023/6964738.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/602023/6964738.page GMT Proposed rules for Powerfists, chainfists, Space Marines and Chaos
Also, you add no actual points costs. This is no doubt a symptom of your terrible sense of balance and so that you have an 'out' when people criticize this for being a terrible idea.

This entire setup will only serve to weaken combat, give even more advantages to Shooty or Horde armies, and make CSM silly. Your buffs feel like you're tired of losing with CSM, so you're trying to change the rules to make them top-tier. Unfortunately, your buffs really don't accomplish that, since the biggest problem for CSM or SM comes from massed AP2/3 shooting or weight of fire.

+1 Wound and mini-eternal warrior is massively better than +1 Toughness. In fact, all your changes are massively superior. Your rules won't balance or fix a thing, they'll pour cement on one half of the scale so that CSM/Chaos combos would become unbeatable.

And, quite unintentionally you've given Chapter Masters a ridiculously good buff. (Shield Eternal/Burning Blade. The 2+3++ becomes much better when nobody has AP2, and the Burning Blade doesn't just hit at initiative, but now gets better AP AND a Strength Bonus equal to what is gained from Power Fists.)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/602023/6964878.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/602023/6964878.page GMT Proposed rules for Powerfists, chainfists, Space Marines and Chaos
They made no sense fluffwisely, and they dont help to balance the game.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/602023/6964958.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/602023/6964958.page GMT Proposed rules for Powerfists, chainfists, Space Marines and Chaos
Waaaghpower wrote:
So, in other words... Make Close Combat last fething forever because nobody will ever die, make Nurgle Marines vastly better, make Boons vastly better, make Chaos Space Marines vastly better.

Also, you add no actual points costs. This is no doubt a symptom of your terrible sense of balance and so that you have an 'out' when people criticize this for being a terrible idea.

This entire setup will only serve to weaken combat, give even more advantages to Shooty or Horde armies, and make CSM silly. Your buffs feel like you're tired of losing with CSM, so you're trying to change the rules to make them top-tier. Unfortunately, your buffs really don't accomplish that, since the biggest problem for CSM or SM comes from massed AP2/3 shooting or weight of fire.

+1 Wound and mini-eternal warrior is massively better than +1 Toughness. In fact, all your changes are massively superior. Your rules won't balance or fix a thing, they'll pour cement on one half of the scale so that CSM/Chaos combos would become unbeatable.

And, quite unintentionally you've given Chapter Masters a ridiculously good buff. (Shield Eternal/Burning Blade. The 2+3++ becomes much better when nobody has AP2, and the Burning Blade doesn't just hit at initiative, but now gets better AP AND a Strength Bonus equal to what is gained from Power Fists.)


I actually thought that people would complain about my change to the Mark of Nurgle as with this change Strength 9 weapons will nullify the Feel No Pain of Plague Marines. With only Toughness 4 they will receive slightly more wounds but can also endure more.

Yes exactly, several places I haven't added points costs because I couldn't figure out the right, fair and balanced amount - why are you so upset with this?
Yes I did want to buff Chaos Space Marines in some areas but the points costs should still match it. In my perfect world no army is a clear top-tier, just balanced.

I don't know if you're just venting hot air or if you're really trying to make a point. You complain that my changes will not change a thing because Chaos Space Marines and Space Marines will still die from massed AP2/3 shooting and at the same time you complain that I've made too many massive buffs - which is it?

By the way, Chainfists just became much more useful as with these changes, they're the only weapons for non-Independent models to get AP2 in close combat.

Yes Boons will be better. Many People have complained how ridiculous the Chaos Boons table is. Many times you get buffs which you already have or get elevated to a Daemon Prince without your accept, which makes this one-page rule a waste of time and space.

Last but certainly not least: lighten up buddy...


 The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
I must agree with waaaghpower. I stoped reading a bit after the close combat weapons nerfs.

They made no sense fluffwisely, and they dont help to balance the game.


What is it you don't like? The nerf to Powerfists? Fluff-wise it seemed odd for me that Powerfists should be that good at dealing with Terminators and Vehicles and I think it looked too much like a Chainfist in how effective it is. Terminators, proper costed, would be more unique as they're the only ones with access to Chainfists.

I also like the change that a normal Sergeant or Aspiring Champion can't take out a Chaos Lord or Chapter Master with one hit with his Powerfist, as they're only Strength 7 with these changes. Also multi-wounded Characters may not want to take the toughened Terminator Armour because most Walkers will now be Strength 9 and so Bikes will look much more effective.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/602023/6965003.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/602023/6965003.page GMT Proposed rules for Powerfists, chainfists, Space Marines and Chaos CSM and SM to equally ludicrous levels. That being said, you're fixing the wrong symptoms that make Power-Armored armies fail, making sure that Space Marines will never win a game, and then rigging things towards CSM. That's my point. Your buffs are huge increases in power, but don't fix the real problems. It'd be like making Space Marines 3 Points each: Technically they become the best army, but Space Marines don't actually get better, just more stupid.

Also... You can't see why Power Fists, the weapon designed to breach any armor, fluff-wise the most powerful standard wargear available to the imperium for Melee, shouldn't be AP2? Or even S8? Making something better by salting the earth around it doesn't fix things, it limits options and ruins armies.

Also: If you're forcing someone to use Lascannon fire and its equivalents to have a chance at even scratching Nurgle Marines, you're doing balance wrong.

Lastly: I was calling you out for not assigning point values because it absolves you of blame and is a cop-out against criticism. If you don't stand behind your opinions or even take a guess at what something is worse, then it's a clear and annoying way to defend yourself from criticism. After all, you can't say something is overpowered if it costs too many points, right? (Except in this case you can, because your nerf of everything Close Combat makes the assault phase pointless for elitist armies, completely changing game balance.)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/602023/6965113.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/602023/6965113.page GMT Proposed rules for Powerfists, chainfists, Space Marines and Chaos
"... it absolves you of blame and is a cop-out against criticism..." ... Damn... You've got it wrong, go for the ball not the guy - that's how you advance with people. An amount of points could have popped up in YOUR mind which made a certain rule balanced, but no... You'd rather complain.

I guess I'll try one last time to give you a reply and see if you can reply with an constructive answer, as I want to work towards better rules.

An alternative to #5 regarding the Mark of Nurgle could be a

#5a- 5+ Feel No Pain which stacks so Plague Marines would be T4, W1, 3+ Feel No Pain + the stated alternative rules for Instant Death.

or just

#5b- +1 Wound without my alternative rules for Instant Death so now Strength 8 weapons will nullify the Plague Marines' Feel No Pain.

It's the Chainfist which was designed to breach any armour, not the Power Fist - that was my point when I changed it so only Chainfists have AP2 and so will be the only "normal" close combat weapon which can reach the "Explode" result.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furthermore I would like to discuss the overall toughness of Space Marines and Terminators or the amount of AP2 and AP3 weapons.

If an overall downgrade of AP2 and AP3 weapons couldn't be achieved then some infantry could be boosted.
Some suggested in another thread that Terminators got S5 and T5 and maybe even W2. That's too much for me, I think that the rule Feel No Pain would suffice. If the roll should be 4+, 5+ or 6+ could be discussed and also if the Instant Death rule should be altered slightly for Space Marines and Terminators.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/602023/6965706.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/602023/6965706.page GMT Proposed rules for Powerfists, chainfists, Space Marines and Chaos I don't offer corrections because there's nothing to build off of. Your original ideas were such game-changers that there's no real way to fix them without simply writing new rules, and that idea tires me.
This being said, your new Mark of Nurgle actually fits pretty well. The Toughness increase changes durability by about 1/3 against S6 or lower weapons, 5+ FNP increases durability by about 1/3rd against S7 or lower. It's a subtle difference, but it's there. I might recommend leaving Nurgle Marines with T5 5+ FNP, but the mark changes seem fine.

Also, you're not quite right: The Power Fist was designed to crack any *armor*. Chainfists were designed not to just crack armor, their primary function is breaching doorways and slicing through tank plating and buildings. This isn't represented well on the Tabletop, but Armorbane for 5 Points is fairly close. It was never an anti-personel weapon. (Maybe just give it AP1 for the damage chart bonus?)

However, your fix causes as many problems as it creates. How come a Power Fist is not any better at piercing armor than a mere Sword? Isn't it supposed to be far better at getting through armor? Does this mean swords need to become +1 Strength AP4? And Mauls are +3S AP5?

I'd be far more in favor of boosting Terminators, they're too fragile in this edition. Feel No Pain is fine rules-wise, but not so much fluff-wise... +1 Toughness doesn't feel right either, but it's closer.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/602023/6966249.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/602023/6966249.page GMT Proposed rules for Powerfists, chainfists, Space Marines and Chaos
Well the current rules for Plague Marines work fine, I've just never settled with the +1 to Toughness when thinking about the background. Some told me it was because the skin were making sores which hardened it but still... I would even like a -1 to Toughness if other rules still made the Plague Marine tougher than normal.
Which one of the alternatives did you like?

Well because of background, I wanted a bigger difference between the Power Fist and the Chainfist and because I wanted to change the Obliterators to S5, I wanted to change the x2 Strength of the Power Fists or else an Obliterator was as strong as a Dreadnought in close combat and that felt odd.

By the way, I never completely liked the change that Power Swords and Power Fists had equal AP.

In the thread about Terminator Armour I did some simple calculations and it seemed that a good solution to Terminator Armour was a 4+ Feel No Pain. With a Feel No Pain the Strength difference between the Power Fists and Chainfist makes the indirect difference for a Terminator to survive. So with

#3- Change Powerfists to +3 to Strength, AP2 and Unwieldy, Specialist weapon, reduce cost to 20 or 15 points from the usual 25 points.

and

#4- Change Chainfists to +4 to Strength, AP2, Unwieldy, Specialist weapon, Armourbane.

a Terminator would survive a Power Fist wound from a S4 model with a 66,67 % chance and a Chainfist wound from a S4 model with a 33,33 %. I like this difference.

I also wanted a difference between the Power Fist and the Chainfist on the Vehicle Damage chart but with both at AP2 this wouldn't happen. I didn't want to change the AP of the Chainfist to AP1 as I thought there was a level higher in the form of Melta weapons.
A solution I very much like is when a double is rolled for Armour Penetration for the Chainfist the AP changes to AP1.

So when Power Fists and Thunder Hammers are AP2 as usual, the question I ask myself is: what should the Power Axe have? AP 3 like the change in #3b or back to AP2 as usual? I think I would prefer that the rules weren't changed.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/602023/6966871.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/602023/6966871.page GMT Re:Proposed rules for Powerfists, chainfists, Space Marines and Chaos
#30- Raise WS, I and maybe BS closer to levels of the 2nd edition. Aspiring Champions, Space Marine Sergeants, Terminators, Chosen, Vanguard, Sternguard for example should have WS5 and I5. Exarches should have WS6 and I7 or I8. Several Independent Characters should have their WS and I raised by 1 or 2. It feels like Daemon Heralds already have the stats of 2nd edition but should probably also have their WS and I raised by 1. Dreadnoughts, Chaos Dreadnoughts and Helbrutes should remain at WS4 and WS5 as it takes a long time to master the Dreadnought coffin, but Eldar spirits have it easier and thus Wraithlords should be WS5 or WS6.


#31- If a model has more than double WS than the enemy, the model hits on 2+.

#32- The Warpflame Strike of Warp Talons hits units within either 12".]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/602023/6971241.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/602023/6971241.page GMT Re:Proposed rules for Powerfists, chainfists, Space Marines and Chaos
#33- New special rule: Dedicated close combat unit. A unit where all the models have this special rule and which don't include a model with any of the Bulky special rules may treat a transport (not Drop Pods) which is not open-topped as if it were to symbolize that they just board the outside of the vehicle and hang on where possible. The unit may even treat non-open-topped, non-transports which also aren't Walkers as if they're open-topped transports with a transport capacity of twice their base Hull points. If they embark on a vehicle in either of these way, they may not shoot from the transport as they're too busy holding on. Template weapons hit the transport as if it's open-topped. The attacking player may choose if ranged weapons and Vector Strikes hit the unit being transported or the the transport itself. If the unit being transported is targeted then it receives a 5+ cover save. If an enemy unit makes a successful charge and reaches the vehicle, the unit being transported may immediately disembark and be placed in base-to-base contact with the transport; this way the disembarked unit is reached instead - the charging unit still get +1 to it's Attacks for charging. An Independent Character which don't have any of the Bulky special rules has the Dedicated close combat unit special rule.

#34- New special rule: Brutal dedicated close combat unit. In addition to the rules for being a Dedicated close combat unit, the unit has the following rules. When being transported the special way described in the Dedicated close combat unit rule, the unit being transported may even disembark and charge the turn the vehicle makes a Tank Shock move. If disembarked before a Tank Shock move or after a Tank Shock move of 6" or less, the unit disembarks, moves and charges normally. If disembarked after a Tank Shock move of more than 6" but at a maximum of 12", the unit disembarks and is placed in base-to-base contact with the vehicle but may not make a normal move afterwards, though it may charge.

#35- Dire Avengers, Storm Guardians, Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions, Harlequins, Crusader squads and Vanguard Veteran squads have the Dedicated close combat special rule.


#36- Possessed and Khorne Berzerkers have the Brutal dedicated close combat special rule.

#37- Independent Characters from the Chaos Space Marines codex have the Brutal dedicated close combat unit special rule.

#38- New special rule: Minor titan. In addition to the other unit types named in the Stomp special rule for which a Super Heavy Walker can't Stomp, models which are Vehicles or Monstrous Creatures can't be stomped - the Super Heavy Walker simply isn't that big.

#39- All versions of the Imperial Knight have the Minor titan special rule.

#40- In addition to the Stomp rule: before a model is taking any kind of save (if any at all) the model can evade hits caused by the Stomp rule. A model successfully evades a Stomp attack on a successful Initiative test.


#41- Add the following weapon to the Chaos Artefacts. Plague Scythe: S+1, AP3, Melee, Unwieldy, Poisoned (4+), Contagion, Two-Handed, Daemon Weapon, gets D6 additional Attacks to a maximum of the amount of enemy models he's in close combat with; so in a Challenge he only gets +1 Attack, models with the Mark of Nurgle or Daemon of Nurgle only. 35 points.

#42- A Chaos Lord with the Mark of Nurgle gains the same Plague Zombies special rule which Typhus has.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/602023/6978907.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/602023/6978907.page GMT Proposed rules for Powerfists, chainfists, Space Marines and Chaos
So why weaken the melee? AP2 is already useful, and Sx2 is needed for instant-death.

If TH didn't insta-death T4, it would nerf Assault termies beyond all recognition.

The real issue is: how is melee so strong that it should be nerfed to such an extent? It doesn't make much sense. You could try to lower AP2 shooting weaponry, but plasma already have a 1/6th chance of failure (and then wounding yourself), melta has short range, and lascannons are expensive.

Yes, AP2 is a pain to deal with, and it weakens a lot of Armor 2+ units.

But why not fix that by giving some Armor 2 units additional bonuses (e.g. termies being able to assault from deepstrike; maybe either move or assault)?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/602023/6979830.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/602023/6979830.page GMT Proposed rules for Powerfists, chainfists, Space Marines and Chaos
Terminators with Power Fists and Thunder Hammers will not feel any difference against normal infantry unless they have Feel No Pain or several wounds but that's what the Chainfist are there for which is unique to Terminators.
Against Toughness 5 the nerf to Strength 7 makes no difference at all. Against the biggest Monstrous Creatures at Toughness 6 Terminators are nerfed a bit because of the Strength 7 nerf but they're buffed quite a lot because they're only at Initiative 3 as opposed to Initiative 1. To avoid the nerf you could again upgrade to Chainfists.

I think it's a good idea that GW has chosen not to allow an Assault right after a Deep Strike. Yes there's still some chance when Deep Striking but even though you don't land on spot you can still be in a good charge range and then you're in close combat, it should take more than that. I did buff the Deep Strike part though as you can see in #11.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/602023/6980188.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/602023/6980188.page GMT