<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Thousand Sons proposed rules"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/16.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Thousand Sons proposed rules 40k.

Thousand Sons proposed rules:

Awakened Souls (Replaces Slow and Purposeful for Thousand Sons and Aspiring Sorcerer): As long as at least one model in the unit has this special rule, the unit may not Run, Charge in the Assault Phase, or perform Sweeping Advances. They may, however, fire Overwatch at their full Ballistic Skill instead of only firing Snap Shots. (This generally means they will be able to Rapid-Fire at charging enemies unless the enemy declares their charge from more than 12” away).
Potential Change: May remove this rule altogether, due to its power vs Assault-Based Armies
***Explanation: In my opinion, the Slow and Purposeful rule makes zero sense for Thousand Sons. Yes the name “Slow and Purposeful” sounds like it is made for them, but the actual rule in-game (ie. being able to Rapid-Fire then Charge) encourages them to act like Khorn Berzerkers trying to get up-close and charge into CC after Rapid-Firing, or move-and-shoot with heavy weapons. They don't even have the option of having bolt pistols, close combat weapons or heavy weapons, so it makes no sense for them to have this rule. (This is probably pretty obvious to anyone who actually plays Thousand Sons on a regular basis). Also, from a fluff point of view, with them being relatively slow-moving automatons and their Aspiring Sorcerer generally wanting to rely on his Psychic Powers, charging into CC should never be their primary goal in my opinion.***

Cult of Tzeentch: If your Warlord is a Psyker with the Mark of Tzeentch (or is a Psyker AND a Daemon of Tzeentch) and the unit consists of 1 Aspiring Sorcerer and 8 Thousand Sons, the Aspiring Sorcerer gains +3 additional Warp Charge points (for a total of +4 Warp Charge dice to the Thousand Sons players Warp Charge pool). This rules does not cause the Aspiring Sorcerer to gain any new Mastery levels or generate any additional Psychic powers other than those already known/generated normally.
Potential Change: May lower the extra Charge points to +2 instead of +3 but +3 has not been much of an issue for my friends yet, requires more testing!!
***Explanation: This allows you to have plenty of Warp Charges in your army without having lean on the crutch of allying with Daemons just to have enough Warp Charges to cast a reasonable number of spells with your Sorcerers or Ahriman. In the Chaos Space Marine Codex on page 32 it says in the little box on the Sorcerer page that Thousand Sons Sorcerers are the “most accomplished of all their kind” this brings that statement onto the tabletop. And yes, if you were to ALSO ally with Daemons this would give you a very large number of Warp Charge points, but I think because Thousand Sons are so expensive, and this rule forces you to have more of them, that means less points for Daemon allies anyways.***

All is Dust (Replaces Mark of Tzeentch and Aura of Dark Glory on Non-Aspiring-Sorcerer Thousand Sons): Models with the 'All is Dust' special rule have Feel No Pain (3+). If models with the 'All is Dust' special rule are hit by Blast, Large-Blast, Massive-Blast, Apocalyptic Blast, Apocalyptic Mega-Blast or Barrage weapons 'All is Dust' has no effect (ie. They do not get a Feel No Pain roll vs these types of attacks).
Potential Change: May add AP3 or lower weapons to the list that negate this rule, but again, it has not seemed overly strong vs current meta shooting armies like Eldar/Tau/FMC Tyranids
***Explanation: In every single book and story about the Rubric marines it describes them as sealed suits of Armour that can shrug-off most attacks unless their armor is almost completely obliterated. The idea that they would get a 4+ Invulnerable save vs D weapons or Blast weapons that would obviously be more likely to destroy their whole suit of armour makes no sense for Thousand Sons. The above rule enables them to get possibly 2 saves vs anything that cannot Instant-kill them or completely destroy their armored shells (Since the Feel No Pain rule is already negated by D weapons and weapons that cause Instant Death). Also, this does not apply to any other models other than the Thousand Sons Rubrics so the Aspiring Sorcerer would still have to rely on his normal Armour or Invulnerable saves.***

Additional Chaos Reward:

Jade Scarab: 75pts (Psykers with the Mark of Tzeentch (or Daemon of Tzeentch) only, AND your Primary Detachment must include at least one unit of Thousand Sons). (FAQ: Ahriman has the 'Jade Scarab' Chaos Reward).

Jade Scarab: Tzeentch Psykers with this Chaos Reward may target and/or hit Flying Mounstrous Creatures and Zooming Flyers with Witchfire spells using their full Ballistic Skill instead of only firing Snap-Shots (this includes being able to hit Flying Mounstrous Creatures and Zooming Flyers with Witchfire Psychic powers that do not roll To-Hit, such as Beam, Blast and Template attacks).
If your Warlord has the 'Jade Scarab' Chaos Reward, Aspiring Sorcerers in your army automatically have this reward for the rest of the game (even if the Warlord is killed).

***Explanation: This Reward allows you to have a better chance vs Flyers when fielding Tzeentch Sorcerers with Thousand Sons. Since it would make sense to me (and also from the fluff) that they would have the ability to bring down a flyer with their enhanced Psychic (Wichfire) powers. Also, the 'Jade Scarab' is the crystal that all the Thousand Sons had embedded in their chest-plate that allowed them to teleport to the Planet of the Sorcerers, so that is why I chose that name.***]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/604047/7001731.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/604047/7001731.page GMT Thousand Sons proposed rules http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/604047/7004735.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/604047/7004735.page GMT Re:Thousand Sons proposed rules
Essentially this is what they get summarized: Full BS Overwatch but can't Charge, +3 extra Warp Charges for every squad of 9, 3+ FNP (except vs Blast, D, Instant-Death). And, 75pt piece of HQ wargear for targeting Flyers with Witchfire spells.

The above changes also assume that your opponents are building their lists to be somewhat competitive (as most people do). So, for example, if you are playing vs a Tau player who fields an entire army of Kroot with no Riptides or a Dark-Eldar player who refuses to use Dark-Lances, then these changes will probably seem overpowered.

Let me know what you think!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/604047/7004911.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/604047/7004911.page GMT Thousand Sons proposed rules
Also, the high warp charge count is, I think, too good of a bonus for just playing in character.

All is dust has a similar problem to super-overwatch, in that it would swing heavily from one game to another, depending on enemy force org.

In both of the swing cases, it would largely matter at the army level, while squads wouldn't be too bad (and would probably just see concentrated attacks from the right types of weapons.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/604047/7005500.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/604047/7005500.page GMT Thousand Sons proposed rules
 spiralingcadaver wrote:
I agree that slow and purposeful is pretty stupid, but don't agree with your solution: sounds like a bad play experience, since you're quadrupling the casualties when assaulted, so it'll swing the game hard (expensive ability you're not using vs. shooting armies, ridiculously strong ability you're getting vs. melee heavy (esp. if they're 'nids or someone else where assault troops have bad guns or none)).

Also, the high warp charge count is, I think, too good of a bonus for just playing in character.

All is dust has a similar problem to super-overwatch, in that it would swing heavily from one game to another, depending on enemy force org.

In both of the swing cases, it would largely matter at the army level, while squads wouldn't be too bad (and would probably just see concentrated attacks from the right types of weapons.


I do see your point about the super-Overwatch, I do tend to play against heavy shooty armies since I started trying these out and perhaps that is why my friends have not complained about them. I will try it out vs an assault heavy army, and if it tends to be too strong I may just remove that rule altogether but leave in the other two. The extra Warp Charge points actually is not as good as it first appears, similar to the first impressions of a mass Daemon summoning army, with the increased chances of Perils and the unreliability and short range of Psychic powers in general it really only barely makes them competitive due to their already over-priced points cost.

The All Is Dust (FNP) idea is definitely effected by your opponents choice of weaponry but other than having to be smart and work around it I have not found it to be any worse than your opponent having an Invisible Centurion Deathstar or a ton of shooty Flying Monstrous Creatures that can both be impossible to deal with for many armies as well.

Maybe there is just some general feeling out there that Thousand Sons are supposed to be weak and points-inefficient because they have been for so long, but I don't feel that way which is why I am testing and tweaking these rules every chance I get to play.

Thanks for the responses!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/604047/7005579.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/604047/7005579.page GMT Re:Thousand Sons proposed rules
For Awakened Souls, you should change it to be a requirement much like the old Sorceror Commands rule. If the squad is led by a character with the Mark of Tzeentch, the squad may add an additional D3 to their Ballistic Skill when firing Overwatch. Perhaps make it so that the Aspiring Sorceror can't use a psychic power the following turn as he spends all his effort guiding the marines.

For All is Dust, I think you could keep the FNP (3+) as it doesn't sound too bad and it fixes their annoying weakness to small arms.

The Cult of Tzeentch seems like a bit too much to me. And that's coming from a Sons - exclusive player. Every unit of 9 in an army is the equivalent of adding another Ahriman. That's a loooot of warp charge. Why not change it so that they generate one additional warp charge point and you can add +1 to Deny the Witch rolls against ANY power casting within 12" or something. It keeps the spirit of your original rule by allowing you more psychic prowess AND it allows Sons to dominate other psykers (as has previously never been allowed by GW for some silly reason even though every one of the Psychic disciplines is based off of Thousand Sons Cult specialties).

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/604047/7007261.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/604047/7007261.page GMT Thousand Sons proposed rules
Also maybe modifly The fnp to be only against weapons that don't penetrate their armor? That way you still keep the whole extra toughness against small arms fire, but things like plasma guns don't lose all their effectiveness. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/604047/7007284.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/604047/7007284.page GMT Re:Thousand Sons proposed rules
GameFreak975 wrote:
I like these changes, but I also agree that they would be absolutely brutal against any sort of assault based army. Especially one that comes from a power armor book.

For Awakened Souls, you should change it to be a requirement much like the old Sorceror Commands rule. If the squad is led by a character with the Mark of Tzeentch, the squad may add an additional D3 to their Ballistic Skill when firing Overwatch. Perhaps make it so that the Aspiring Sorceror can't use a psychic power the following turn as he spends all his effort guiding the marines.

For All is Dust, I think you could keep the FNP (3+) as it doesn't sound too bad and it fixes their annoying weakness to small arms.

The Cult of Tzeentch seems like a bit too much to me. And that's coming from a Sons - exclusive player. Every unit of 9 in an army is the equivalent of adding another Ahriman. That's a loooot of warp charge. Why not change it so that they generate one additional warp charge point and you can add +1 to Deny the Witch rolls against ANY power casting within 12" or something. It keeps the spirit of your original rule by allowing you more psychic prowess AND it allows Sons to dominate other psykers (as has previously never been allowed by GW for some silly reason even though every one of the Psychic disciplines is based off of Thousand Sons Cult specialties).



I was trying to keep these rules as simple and easy to throw into current games as possible. I had thought of more requirements that were related to them being controlled by their Aspiring Sorcerers but it just started to get too complicated and confusing for my opponents, especially since they were custom-rules to begin with.

The Cult of Tzeentch thing actually is not nearly as overpowered as it looks on paper. Take this example: To get this bonus you have to get at least 4 more Thousand Sons per squad, which is 92 points. For 95 points you can get a Mastery lvl 3 Tzeentch Herald (4 of them) as an Ally, and for another 99 points you can get 2 more Mastery lvls per 11-man Pink Horror squad. And all of those Daemons can summon even MORE Mastery levels every turn through Conjuring or a Portal Glyph. So 92 points is slightly cheaper than those Deamons for a similar number of Warp Charges. Also, considering the Aspiring Champions only get 2 (weak) spells max, even if your chances of successfully casting their spells is increased, it doesn't increase the power of their spells particularly, plus your chances of Perils goes up significantly. Due to the handicap of the Tzeentch Discipline, even if you had 100 Warp Charge dice you can only do so much damage in your own Psychic Phase before you kill your own guys with Perils or just run out of spells to cast. Yes it does make Denying your opponents spells much easier but if any army should be able to shut-down an opponents Psychic Phase it should be the Thousand Sons (or Grey Knights, who can generate just as many dice without having to Ally with Daemons) ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/604047/7007347.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/604047/7007347.page GMT Re:Thousand Sons proposed rules CSM list I would have near 30 dice to chuck before the D6 for the phase. I just think it's a bit too much. Maybe a D3 instead of a flat +4. But maybe that's just me.

I agree that simple is better. But to the above who suggested that plasma and other low AP weaponry should kill the sons, then why are we taking the Sons over plague marines besides the paltry selection of psychic powers?

Like it or not I think the Thousand Sons invulnerability vs. Strange weaponry such as plasma, or melta or lances has been thoroughly established by GW and our own player base over the years and changing them to plague marines +1 is just meh to me at this point.

I do like your changes Al and I would gladly play with them or against the. Jade scarab seems a bit overpriced to me though. 75 points for shooting some witchfire with skyfire? Besides doom bolt what power can even scrape a flier?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/604047/7007381.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/604047/7007381.page GMT Thousand Sons proposed rules
I have no problem with Thousand Sons getting stuck in, except I would never use this option save to deny the enemy the charge. Thousand Sons, save for the Sorcerer leading the fray, have no business in CC. They are a shooty, marine killing choice that's, frankly, just a bit too expensive.

Honestly, I'd much rather have Thousand Sons get options for Heavy Weapons, like Heavy Bolters or Autocannons. Even better if those weapons get upgraded to AP 3 and possibly Soul Blaze. As the Thousand Sons are now, they just aren't very threatening. At least they can tarpit something nasty, but you can just as easily fill out some Chosen with Plasma Guns to shoot whatever is dangerous off the board instead.

Either that, or Thousand Sons Bikers with Slow and Purposeful. You can't turbo boost, but you don't take Dangerous Terrain tests. I always wanted to just run a full Thousand Sons army loaded with options. But just slapping Mark of Tzeentch on things doesn't cut it.

On topic though, I agree with ditching the Overwatch improvement. If they are slow to react to things, and don't move quickly, it doesn't make sense to give them great reaction times when responding to a charge.

Now, I do kinda like the idea of Thousand Sons somehow acting as a buffer for their Sorcerer Sergeant. Maybe give them a rule that lets them ground Perils for the Sorcerer, or as long as the Sorcerer is alive, the unit has 'Brotherhood of the Psyker', so you can pass the Perils wound off onto them.

As for gaining extra warp charges, maybe bind that into unit size similar to Horrors, where if you've got a squad of 9 or more, the Sorcerer generates another warp charge. This would bait the enemy into shooting at the unit to rob you of a warp charge. (Picked 9 because its Tzeentch's number.)

Finally, giving them FNP seems to make sense, but its totally horning in on Nurgle's shtick. I'd rather the unit get some special abilities IF you spend warp charges on the unit. Give them greater utility with increased range or a better invuln save. Maybe if they've got the banner to give their shooting Soul Blaze, you can make it actually hurt by expending a warp charge or something.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/604047/7007665.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/604047/7007665.page GMT