<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points"]]>

<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/16.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points
Any Terminator may now switch out their Storm Bolter and Power Fist for a Heavy Bolter and Power Sword for free. What do ya'll think? With this one change Terminators can suddenly shoot, and be a threat at shooting in exchange for for losing some of their melee punch. Imagine coming down in the middle of battle and getting off 15 to 30 Heavy Bolter shots into the the enemy or against rear armor, heck you probably wouldn't even have to teleport in with that 36" range, suddenly you have a hard target who can hold objectives. Yeah, you would lose some anti tank ability but you could always run a couple of Chain Fists or Thunder Hammers (and drop the HB). I think it's an interesting idea, and I'm curious what others might think. Be nice.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7060645.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7060645.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points
I wouldn't be against just giving the Storm Bolter a better statline, though.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7060707.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7060707.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7060769.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7060769.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points
First you have to explain EXACTLY how they are over costed or under powered. Just saying something without proof means nothing.

Genestealers I say are way over priced. Compared to a Space Marine, SM get to shoot, have grenades, and for what a point or two more than a Stealer. So that is why Stealers are over priced. They can't do as much as SM do and their better Initiative means squat when a SM is hiding and cowering in terrain. So it gets to go first. If the Stealer is hiding and cowering in terrain, then the SM can shoot at it and then use it's grenades against them as well. A Stealer can't do that.

So why is a Terminator over costed? How is it under powered? Once you start saying why, you are half way to your answer. Right now without any explanation or reason, you are just pulling answers out of thin air. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7060935.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7060935.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points

Davor wrote:
Try using Genestealers and then tell me how Terminators are over costed and/or under powered.

First you have to explain EXACTLY how they are over costed or under powered. Just saying something without proof means nothing.

Genestealers I say are way over priced. Compared to a Space Marine, SM get to shoot, have grenades, and for what a point or two more than a Stealer. So that is why Stealers are over priced. They can't do as much as SM do and their better Initiative means squat when a SM is hiding and cowering in terrain. So it gets to go first. If the Stealer is hiding and cowering in terrain, then the SM can shoot at it and then use it's grenades against them as well. A Stealer can't do that.

So why is a Terminator over costed? How is it under powered? Once you start saying why, you are half way to your answer. Right now without any explanation or reason, you are just pulling answers out of thin air.

Genestealers are overcosted. It's possible they even are more overcosted than Terminators are. However, it has no real relevance to the topic.

For proof, read the damn threads. People have been explaining how they are twice the toughness of a tactical marine for 3x the price, poor firepower and mobility, low attack count etc. all over the forum, in the various Terminator threads that have popped up.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7061078.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7061078.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points
If we go by your example, I would say that Terminators are properly costed, it's that Tactical Marines are under costed. See there is the revelance for me brining in Genestealers. To compare to a tactical Marine, then that would mean every other unit is not costed properly so instead of trying to change everything to tactical marines, maybe the solution would be to change the price of tactical marines instead. So this way Genestealers and Terminators wouldn't need to become cheaper and then be "under costed" compared to other units and would be easier to properly cost the tactical marine.

Come on, SM get cheaper, get grenades for free, they don't have to choose what grenades they have, they can have both and the price is lower to what it was before or stays the same, I think is the problem.

A different way of looking things. Instead of making things cheaper, find out what the problem is, and maybe make the other unit more expensive.

TL;DR Instead of making multiple units change to be cheaper, the solution could be to make the compared unit more expensive.

A different way of looking at things, so yes it is relevant.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7061107.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7061107.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points
Or are you saying the price ratio of Genestealer VS Necron Warrior/Dire Avenger/Fire Warrior/IG Veteran et cetera ad nauseam is fine?

If your solution to genestealers being OP is to nerf everything else instead of buffing them, then that is fine with me as the end result is the same, but it seems a bit unnecessary for one unit.

The problem ITT is that Terminators are overcosted compared to the majority of the game.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7061140.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7061140.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points

Ashiraya wrote:
But that is flawed. If you make Tactical Marines more expensive, they just become overcosted too.

Or are you saying the price ratio of Genestealer VS Necron Warrior/Dire Avenger/Fire Warrior/IG Veteran et cetera ad nauseam is fine?

If your solution to genestealers being OP is to nerf everything else instead of buffing them, then that is fine with me as the end result is the same, but it seems a bit unnecessary for one unit.

The problem ITT is that Terminators are overcosted compared to the majority of the game.

All I am trying to do is look at it from another point of view. I mean, once we start making something cheaper Terminators in this case to compensate for something against Tactical Marines (TM from now on) would be find, but then now that Terminator is way undercoated compared to the Genestealer. So now we have to make the Genestealer cheaper. So now it's a domino effect. What I am trying to say is, let's stop the Domino effect and then just make the TM more expensive instead of making everything else cheaper.

Now you bring up Dire Avengers/Fire Warriors/IG/Necrons etc. I really can't say since I am not familiar with them. If they are not priced appropriately then we need to throw out the bath water, find out exactly how much each stat costs and appropriately cost everything.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7061193.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7061193.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points
Genestealers are weaker, they should be enhanced.

Terminators are weaker. They, too, should be enhanced.

You seem consternated over the weakness of the Genestealers, which is understandable, since they are a very weak unit overall. Ideally, trying to bring down other units to their level is inefficient. It is better to buff them instead.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7061205.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7061205.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points AV is 11 bar the Dias. And the downside is...a shooting unit becomes slightly worse at Close Ciombat. At the very least, give them a price increase for this massive increase in fire power!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7061284.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7061284.page GMT Re:One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7061299.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7061299.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points

ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
This would be really, really over powered vs my Dark Eldar. A unit of 5 Terminators would put out 15 Heavy Bolters shots at 36'', which ignore EVERY SAVE IN MY ARMY bar for Incubi and would cause havoc upon my vehicles, who's max AV is 11 bar the Dias. And the downside is...a shooting unit becomes slightly worse at Close Ciombat. At the very least, give them a price increase for this massive increase in fire power!

But the HB fire wouldn't ignore your cover save, your FNP tokens, and I would still have to shoot down your vehicles (which most if not all have Jink and the reduce 6" from my max range if targeting the vehicle) before I get to the juicy insides. Yes this would make Terminators dangerous again, and they should be dangerous for 220+ points for a base unit of five.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Davor wrote:
Try using Genestealers and then tell me how Terminators are over costed and/or under powered.

First you have to explain EXACTLY how they are over costed or under powered. Just saying something without proof means nothing.

Genestealers I say are way over priced. Compared to a Space Marine, SM get to shoot, have grenades, and for what a point or two more than a Stealer. So that is why Stealers are over priced. They can't do as much as SM do and their better Initiative means squat when a SM is hiding and cowering in terrain. So it gets to go first. If the Stealer is hiding and cowering in terrain, then the SM can shoot at it and then use it's grenades against them as well. A Stealer can't do that.

So why is a Terminator over costed? How is it under powered? Once you start saying why, you are half way to your answer. Right now without any explanation or reason, you are just pulling answers out of thin air.

Genestealers are under-powered; they should be able to outflank and assault.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheCustomLime wrote:
+1 A, a 4+ invuln and maybe +1 w. That would justify their cost. Maybe remove some AP2 from the game.

That's not a bad idea, and is the flip side of the boost firepower coin I was flipping. A second wound especially would be awesome, but I don't see it happening. Hell, I don't see the HB thing happening either, I'm just throwing that up there for discussion (would be cool, IMO, if it did happen). How would you feel about Terminators receiving the 4+ invuln and FNP base?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

lord_blackfang wrote:
Anything that involves redoing the plastic kit and ripping arms off existing models isn't a workable solution, I think.

I wouldn't be against just giving the Storm Bolter a better statline, though.

That's another option, the SB is definitely weaksauce now for a gun. Maybe increasing the range to 36" is in order (along with giving Termies FNP)? That would boost their ranged output somewhat and also help a bit with making them tougher to take down.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7062164.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7062164.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7062229.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7062229.page GMT Re:One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points AP 2 firepower to make the point moot. Buffing their Stormbolters is not a bad idea but just makes them a glorified, slow Sternguard squad. Without special ammo. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7062312.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7062312.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points
Why wouldn't I just take heavy bolter devs?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7062450.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7062450.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points CC. There is enough ap2 arround to still threaten them, but spamming lasguns at them won't do squat-as per fluff etc.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7062511.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7062511.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points csm direction. Csm termies are playable and do quite well. They don't benefit from stuff that loyalists have like atsknf (which is a big deal) and chapter tactix but have their own benefits like possibility to be taken in minsquads of 3 and having combi-weaponry.

So, why don't you combine sm termies and csm termies and get a playable sm version with some benefits and restrictions.

Termies come in a minimum squad of 4 + sergeant. Can purchase up to 10. [loyalist part]
Termies come stock with stormbolters and power weapons. [csm part with sb instead of c-b]
They cost 31 ppm and can purchase weaponry allowed to current sm termies + they can replace power weapons with a power fist for 9 pts [csm cost but loyalist's weaponry]

So you geat a squad of 31 ppm termies - 155 per min squad down from 200 pts. Thus, you deal with the problem of paying for powerfists you'll never gona use. Buy 1 or 2 if you feel needed but still it's a discount for the same...or even better effectiveness. With minimum rules tweaking.

You can probably use lightning claws from an assault termie kit that you never use anywayz but i feel that regular sergeant power weapon arm is gona be better since LC should cost extra for termies with Pw base

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7062758.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7062758.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points

Ailaros wrote:
Giving them a pile of heavy bolters and making them much worse in close combat?

Why wouldn't I just take heavy bolter devs?

Because Terminators are Relentless.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7062991.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7062991.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points

mekugi wrote:
How about making them immune to small arms fire somehow-like introduce an armour rule that doesn't let weapons with statlines less than ap2 get through except in CC. There is enough ap2 arround to still threaten them, but spamming lasguns at them won't do squat-as per fluff etc.

Because it punishes certain armies more than it does others. Imperial Guard would have no problem dealing with Termies like that. Orks would. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7063360.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7063360.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points
Problem solved.

Terminators are worth taking because they can legitimately concentrate firepower from a small footprint, it doesn't make them hideously OP/Change them to be unfluffy.

And Stormbolters now become a weapon that is suited to Terminators (relentless means they can fire maximum shots all day every day, son) which is nice and fluffy, and good on the tabletop.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7063665.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7063665.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points

MagicMan wrote:
Make storm-bolters Salvo 2/3.

Problem solved.

Terminators are worth taking because they can legitimately concentrate firepower from a small footprint, it doesn't make them hideously OP/Change them to be unfluffy.

And Stormbolters now become a weapon that is suited to Terminators (relentless means they can fire maximum shots all day every day, son) which is nice and fluffy, and good on the tabletop.

I would welcome this change to Terminators but do not feel it is enough, by itself, to balance Termies. Combine your idea with FNP and that would probably make Terminators a viable choice.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7063736.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7063736.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7064047.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7064047.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points

WrentheFaceless wrote:
I'm still in the camp of making them toughness 5 myself

I agree. Fluff-wise it'd make sense too, what with how much more protective Termie armor is than a regular set of power armor. Also, nurgle termies at t6 would be pretty awesome lol.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7065980.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7065980.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points should be obscenely hard to kill.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7066022.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7066022.page GMT Re:One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7066044.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7066044.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points

lord_blackfang wrote:
Anything that involves redoing the plastic kit and ripping arms off existing models isn't a workable solution, I think.

I wouldn't be against just giving the Storm Bolter a better statline, though.

Salvo 2/4 24"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7066102.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7066102.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7066104.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7066104.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points
However my Dreadnaught and Predator got blown up on turn one, I think Armour needs looking into more.

However occasionally Termies are pretty useless, I remember when I had a squad of 20 Guards just for the fun of it and they flashlighted an entire squad of Terminators down in one turn.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7066106.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7066106.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7067001.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7067001.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points
Terminators are pretty heavily over costed. The value of equipment can vary based on who wears it. A 4 wound chapter master gains large benefits from being loaded out with 2+ armor and a power fist. A 1 wound marine is not a good foundation to pile points on, and his wargear should cost significantly less. (The same needs to apply to death company with their jump packs!) T5, 2 wounds, and -1 to any poison wound rolls would be a good start. Everyone in the game still has a chance to hurt t5, even gretchin, but they wouldn't drop like flies to lasgun fire, splinter weapons, and bolters. Also 25 point lascannons and dark lances wouldn't easily knock out 2 or 3 for a 25 vs 120 point trade.

Sanguinary guard also have the same issue, being 40 a man is way too steep for a 1 wound marine statline. It doesn't matter what you're wearing at that point.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7067184.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7067184.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points str 5. In the fluff termies are always stronger than PA guys. I don't think they should be tough 5 though. They are still a regular space marine just in heavier armour. And that's represented by the 2+5++. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7067275.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7067275.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points

yellowfever wrote:
I think they should be str 5. In the fluff termies are always stronger than PA guys. I don't think they should be tough 5 though. They are still a regular space marine just in heavier armour. And that's represented by the 2+5++.

Fluff has little place in crunch. The armor is supposed to be better, but is not worth the points increase, which is why they need a bit more of a survivability buff, to make the huge point sink worth it. Either that, or they need to have a ranged firepower overhaul as suggested many times.

Any given unit needs to either have the ability to make up its points in damage, or make up its points in staying power. Termies fall short in both aspects. Tactical marines also tend to fail at this, too, but not as badly.

Also str 5 would do very little. Tactical termies would still be powerfisting, assault termies would still be hammering, or shredding. Only a tactical sarge would see any real benefit from a str increase.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7067337.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7067337.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7067425.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7067425.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points

niv-mizzet wrote:
Tactical marines are in no way undercosted. I feel like they're just south of being right. Like if they had +1 A to help with their abysmal melee, I think that would cover it, and make them actually "tactical."

I agree, Tactical Marines are a bit sub-par; they do okay in shooting, but are lacking punch in melee. +1A would really balance them out.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ashiraya wrote:
Terminators are a tank unit. Their job is to efficiently absorb enemy shots and attacks. They do not do this currently, so they should be enhanced until they do. That is all there is to it really, a damage buff is nice but of lower priority.

Good point, something like two wounds and FNP would keep them in the fight. Is that too much for a 40pt model? I don't think so, STR 8 and higher weapons would still one shot them, but it would be much harder for small arms fire to take them out.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7067446.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7067446.page GMT Re:One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points
With regard to the Genestealers points, yes they are too expensive for their stats. Again they are a fast, close terrain,opponent well suited to eating termies moving through close terrain

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7067494.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7067494.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points MEQ (Possibly not with heavy weapons, to reflect the encumbrance) would do wonders for their melee ability. A fine idea.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7067555.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7067555.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7067567.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7067567.page GMT Re:One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points

StewRat wrote:
Termies are close combat not shooty troops. Trying to use them to shoot their opponents is a temporary expedient until you get them into contact. They should be used in close terrain to reduce shooting on them.

With regard to the Genestealers points, yes they are too expensive for their stats. Again they are a fast, close terrain,opponent well suited to eating termies moving through close terrain

That's not how the fluff describes (non-assault) Termies. And in the current shooty 7e, thats not how you can use them either.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7067582.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7067582.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points
Ideally it should be balanced but this is less important than ensuring their survivability. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7067602.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7067602.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points
What makes Terminators a (mildly) subpar unit atm is not that they can't take small arms fire, but their problems with dedicated weaponry (hence shield termies being so much more liked).

And of course the problem that 40k favours streamlined specialists over all-round units.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7067752.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7067752.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points

DA Player wrote:
Starting from the assumption that Terminators are currently an expensive model for what they can do (i.e. overpriced or under-powered); I was thinking of ways to make them more valuable for their points, and I think I came up with a good solution.

Any Terminator may now switch out their Storm Bolter and Power Fist for a Heavy Bolter and Power Sword for free. What do ya'll think? With this one change Terminators can suddenly shoot, and be a threat at shooting in exchange for for losing some of their melee punch. Imagine coming down in the middle of battle and getting off 15 to 30 Heavy Bolter shots into the the enemy or against rear armor, heck you probably wouldn't even have to teleport in with that 36" range, suddenly you have a hard target who can hold objectives. Yeah, you would lose some anti tank ability but you could always run a couple of Chain Fists or Thunder Hammers (and drop the HB). I think it's an interesting idea, and I'm curious what others might think. Be nice.

I like this idea. Makes them real nasty on the initial strike. But not overpowered.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7067756.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7067756.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points

Ashiraya wrote:
Terminators are a tank unit. Their job is to efficiently absorb enemy shots and attacks. They do not do this currently, so they should be enhanced until they do. That is all there is to it really, a damage buff is nice but of lower priority.

I agree with this.

All the fluff regards terminators as walking tanks. They should be nigh-indestructible, but with still a squishy marine inside. Adding things like FNP or toughness/wounds boosts buffs the guy inside, which isn't really the point. Id add a special rule to their armour to make them immune to a certain sort of fire, or just increase the invulnerable save to 4+?

If we want to make them more effective In a way that emphasises the massive power of the armour, how about having terminator armour cancel out the Unwieldy rule? I also like the Salvo idea for storm bolters.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7067777.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7067777.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points fnp is okay. It can easily represent the armour. ITT stats > fluff. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7067834.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7067834.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points
3+ save on 2D6 was awesome. It really felt like they could shrug off tons of fire.

Now there were modifiers to that save, but you were still saving against Las Cannon shots etc (needed 6's or 7's I believe)

I know it's against the whole theme of current 40K to keep things moving quickly but making those Terminator Armor saves really did feel like you were moving these walking tanks around the battlefield. It also didn't hurt that Stormbolters and Powerfists were awesome in 2nd edition as well.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7068213.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7068213.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7068706.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7068706.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points TM, but still have the hinderance of can't sweep, no grenades, elite choice. etc.

I think it is a fair trade. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7068740.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7068740.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points

More Dakka wrote:
I cracked out the 2nd Ed rules a few months ago and played a game with a squad of Terminators.

3+ save on 2D6 was awesome. It really felt like they could shrug off tons of fire.

Now there were modifiers to that save, but you were still saving against Las Cannon shots etc (needed 6's or 7's I believe)

I know it's against the whole theme of current 40K to keep things moving quickly but making those Terminator Armor saves really did feel like you were moving these walking tanks around the battlefield. It also didn't hurt that Stormbolters and Powerfists were awesome in 2nd edition as well.

This! I was trying to remember how we played em in 2nd ed...I remembered that they were heaps better but couldn't recall the mechanics.
Introducing a d10 or d20 to the game might sort some gak out, or like More Dakka said, 2d6 would do nicely...much more flufflike.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7069310.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7069310.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points

wufai wrote:
What if we can reduce the standard equipment of the terminator. Make the cost of the powerfist (25pts) seperate. Therefore each terminator is a 15pt model, almost the same as a TM, but still have the hinderance of can't sweep, no grenades, elite choice. etc.

I think it is a fair trade.

You're assuming that the 25 PPM cost for Power Fists on models with W1 is fair. I'd argue that it's insane that it's the same cost for a Chapter Master as for a Sergeant.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7069326.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7069326.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

wufai wrote:
What if we can reduce the standard equipment of the terminator. Make the cost of the powerfist (25pts) seperate. Therefore each terminator is a 15pt model, almost the same as a TM, but still have the hinderance of can't sweep, no grenades, elite choice. etc.

I think it is a fair trade.

You're assuming that the 25 PPM cost for Power Fists on models with W1 is fair. I'd argue that it's insane that it's the same cost for a Chapter Master as for a Sergeant.

Indeed. That fact was established and the opposition refuted in this thread, for reference (And to avoid repeating the debate).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7069434.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7069434.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points

Ashiraya wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
wufai wrote:
What if we can reduce the standard equipment of the terminator. Make the cost of the powerfist (25pts) seperate. Therefore each terminator is a 15pt model, almost the same as a TM, but still have the hinderance of can't sweep, no grenades, elite choice. etc.

I think it is a fair trade.

You're assuming that the 25 PPM cost for Power Fists on models with W1 is fair. I'd argue that it's insane that it's the same cost for a Chapter Master as for a Sergeant.

Indeed. That fact was established and the opposition refuted in this thread, for reference (And to avoid repeating the debate).

The progressive points costing in the armoury is one of the things I miss the most from the old BT Codex.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7069442.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7069442.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7069453.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7069453.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points gw are just lazy and made it one price for all.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7069457.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7069457.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7069622.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7069622.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points
Even though, I firmly belive Termies should be 2W & 5+ FNP, regardless of type
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7070698.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7070698.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points

yellowfever wrote:
@niv mizzet. You say fluff has no place and yet I see several people referring to fluff to justify there points. Just like most everyone does. I also think standard orks should be str4 and weapon skill 3 but that's a different discussion.

Yes there are people who use fluff as a replacement logical point for altering crunch. (EG if someone said: a hive tyrant is just flesh and bone, it should have a 6+ save, I don't care how hard it says the chitin is!)

I usually ignore those, as that's a terrible way to actually balance a game.

Note that some people make small concessions in their ideas to support fluff WITH the crunch, which is different. It would sound like: "Hive tyrant armor is too good for their point cost...(some supporting evidence) ...and also, it's just skin and bones, so it makes no sense to be armor that good anyway."

These people tend to be thinking of the crunch first, and then resolving fluff issues after, which is a good way to balance.

Disclaimer: I do not think a tyrant's armor is too good, it is just an example for structure.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7070892.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7070892.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points
its the simple clean way of dealing with it without forcing people to change there models.

The other way would be to allow them there 5++ as a ward save after a failed armor save or ap2.

it gives them a slight survivability edge while not making plasma useless against them.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7070908.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7070908.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points

Desubot wrote:

The other way would be to allow them there 5++ as a ward save after a failed armor save or ap2.

It's called fnp]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7071651.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7071651.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points ID

also they would get FNP on top of that.

So current fail rate is 11% chance to kill a terminator with an apothecary in it.

Mine would drop the chances to 7% which i think is fine.

Edit: Actually perhaps it would be simpler to up them to T5 considering they are "Tough" while centurions are also "Tough" but are bulker so get 2 wounds.

but ultimately the problem is plasma is dirt cheap and abundant and will still wound on 2s against T5. if possibly perhaps bumping the invul save could help? or 5++ with rerolls of 1s? (so to not make it 50% save chance)

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7071657.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7071657.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points I'm curious to know what the posters in this thread would change about Mega Nobz to buff them alongside termies.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7071661.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7071661.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7071748.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7071748.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points

niv-mizzet wrote:
I think Mega nobs are pretty good for their cost actually. Two wounds, and they have both a heavy and light assault vehicle to choose from that don't cost 12% of your army. Easy to stick a pain boy with them too.

IHateNids wrote:
just tactical termies.
Even though, I firmly belive Termies should be 2W & 5+ FNP, regardless of type

so for what? 4points more? i get +2BS +1LD (plus all the ATSKNF shenanigans) a 5++, a 5+ fnp and better weaponry?
yeah right seems legit...

EDIT:
did you just compared a trukk with a freaking land raider?
i would gladly pay 250+ points for AV14 all around, machine spirit and bs3 twin linked lascans...

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7076299.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7076299.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points
And Meganobs can take battlewagons, AV14 front armor with a greater transport capacity and for less than half the points of a landraider. That's a pretty good delivery system.

Or allow Assault Terminators to assault the turn they deepstrike. That would also make them viable even with 1 wound each.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7076907.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7076907.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points

Terminators that deepstrike, and don't move or shoot, may charge.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7077648.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7077648.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points

Icculus wrote:
I think Terminators would be worth it with just an increase from 1 to 2 wounds. That's it. Make that jump and you will see a big increase in their strength without making them the ultimate army choice selection.

And Meganobs can take battlewagons, AV14 front armor with a greater transport capacity and for less than half the points of a landraider. That's a pretty good delivery system.

Or allow Assault Terminators to assault the turn they deepstrike. That would also make them viable even with 1 wound each.

i stand corrected:

so for what? 4points more? i get +2BS +1LD (plus all the ATSKNF shenanigans) a 5++, ~~a 5+ fnp~~ and better weaponry?
yeah right seems legit...

~~EDIT:~~
did you just compared a ~~trukk~~ battlewagon with a freaking land raider?
a battlewagon is open topped side AV12 rear AV10 and cant take heavy weaponary like lascans... also its only bs2 and dosnt have a machine spirit. a fully equipped battlewagon costs about 180 points and isnt even near the efficiency of a landraider
so again:
i would gladly pay 250+ points for an AV14 all around, machine spirit and bs4 twin linked lascans...

i think you guys are just using them wrong... half the armies out there would would give their left arm for the possibility to field a landraider and/or termies

termies arent supposed to wreck everything as a no-brainer unit, you need to use em wisely... you can deepstrike in the back of an assaulting army fire at rear armour and forcing parts of the enemy to go back and deal with the threat... if you just charge em into a tarpit and/or units with high initiative and power weapons, thats not the fault of the termies. its yours -.-

i agree with the deepstrike thought... charging when coming from reserves would be great >:]]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7077836.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7077836.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points

Hashbeth wrote:
Wanna fix terminators? Here's the simple way.

Terminators that deepstrike, and don't move or shoot, may charge.

Way too op. Even more so than the op was suggesting. I'd cut them to 32 points and call it quits, maybe boost storm bolters a bit so they're not quite so useless.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7077990.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7077990.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points

mekugi wrote:

More Dakka wrote:
I cracked out the 2nd Ed rules a few months ago and played a game with a squad of Terminators.

3+ save on 2D6 was awesome. It really felt like they could shrug off tons of fire.

Now there were modifiers to that save, but you were still saving against Las Cannon shots etc (needed 6's or 7's I believe)

I know it's against the whole theme of current 40K to keep things moving quickly but making those Terminator Armor saves really did feel like you were moving these walking tanks around the battlefield. It also didn't hurt that Stormbolters and Powerfists were awesome in 2nd edition as well.

Can we say that Terminators should only move 3" per turn? After all they are bulky. If we are going to make them more survivable, then they should be really what they are. Survivable beasts that are slow. Take the good with the bad. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7078348.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7078348.page GMT One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points SA. They are slow, but only in comparison to the lightning-fast PA Marines.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7078976.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7078976.page GMT Re:One change to Terminators that would make them worth their points TEQ models. If we make them stronger, then everything currently more durable than a terminator will likely be pushed further up (getting even more wounds, better invulnerable saves, FNP etc.). Now, we're already in an edition with pretty ludicrous escalation - with basic weapons getting more and more useless. The last thing we need is yet more power creep in this regard. Hell, we already have chapter masters who somehow have as many wounds as a hive tyrant. If terminators get an additional wound, will chapter masters get one as well? (thus giving them more than most MCs)

In any case, I think the best way to handle this would be an upgrade to their storm bolters - possibly in rate of fire. Although, I'm not sure why everyone suggests making them Salvo 2/4. Since terminators are relentless (unless that doesn't affect salvo?), why not just make them assault 4? Or, are you hoping that *all* storm bolters will get this change and so GKs can leap up a couple of tiers overnight?

Alternatively, just give a price drop of 5-10pts to the terminators that need it. Just about everything else in marine books has come down in price, so terminators should as well.

With regard to the original idea, allowing terminators to take heavy bolters could be interesting, though you'd probably need to playtest it and check that it doesn't cause any unforeseen problems.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7079328.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/607321/7079328.page GMT