<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "The Great Superman II Debate"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/54.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net The Great Superman II Debate
I quickly realized that this was quite probably a case generation gap.
That those of a younger generation who grew up with grim dark comics would see things differently than those who grew up in the golden or silver ages of comic books.

The argument is whether or not Superman kills Zod, Ursa & Non at the end of the movie.
*Note- This is Christopher Reeves Superman circa 1980. Not one of the newer ones.

My argument is that if Superman killed them it would have shown him to be a serial killer in that he would have done so casually and without remorse "after" taking away their powers.
Also, if he killed them then why not Lex too.

My friend/associate focuses on the fact that they had lost their powers and that Superman then throws them into what seem to be very deep ice pits and thats it. No going to jail for Zod & Co. like Luthor. In fact they are not seen or heard from again.


So, What does Dakka think?

Is Supes a casual cold blooded killer in Superman II?


Is he the idealized silver age character that doesn't kill, thus removing the need for resolution of Zod & Co's fate?

Or

Could this be a racial issue where he has the right to kill/punish his own race in ways that he won't when dealing with humans?

Let's hear what you think.


Later,
ff]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/610929/7125072.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/610929/7125072.page GMT The Great Superman II Debate A legionarre had been killed and his murderer captured at the end of the book and turned over to the law.
There was a discussion among those who captured the villain if it would not have been better to have killed him.
In the end it was decided that it was the better course not to.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/610929/7125144.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/610929/7125144.page GMT Re:The Great Superman II Debate
At the end of Superman II there's really no denying Superman is acting like a real dick. Zod is stripped of his powers, and Superman crushes his hand without any need, torturing a man who is now helpless before him pretty much just because he's a dick. Then he sends all three of them plummeting to their dooms (well Lois sends one, but we're not talking about her). Then Superman returns to that diner and picks a fight with that bully, knowing he can now beat on the guy with his vastly superior power.

But elsewhere in the film Superman is his usual self-sacrificing heroic self. Ultimately, the script had real problems with getting his character right in that movie. Mind you, given the problems the film had with tone in general, and what I've heard about late re-writes once Donner was removed from the project, well it all makes sense.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/610929/7125388.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/610929/7125388.page GMT The Great Superman II Debate
If they make him infallible people complain that he isn't that interesting because he has no failings.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/610929/7125403.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/610929/7125403.page GMT The Great Superman II Debate

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 Ahtman wrote:
If they make Superman fallible people complain that he should be better.

If they make him infallible people complain that he isn't that interesting because he has no failings.


It's the problem with superman, he has almost limitless powers and then became a really nice guy under the comics code. In order to have any threat, it can seem contrived because of his awesome power. That said, his power level has been turned up, the earliest superman couldn't even fly, he could just leap. Further, he was a bit more selfish in the use of his powers. In an early issue he destroys all the cars and car factories in Metropolis in response to a friend being killed in a car accident. When the comic code prevented the heroes killing and similar, superman became boring and Batman would go flying around in space. Characters are more interesting when morally ambiguous. If they're power has no limitations and they're highly moral, where's the drama?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/610929/7125416.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/610929/7125416.page GMT Re:The Great Superman II Debate

.. I believe in the Donner cut Supes then -- again! -- goes back in time so none of it ever happened. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/610929/7125628.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/610929/7125628.page GMT The Great Superman II Debate
 Ahtman wrote:
If they make Superman fallible people complain that he should be better.

If they make him infallible people complain that he isn't that interesting because he has no failings.



Well, it's interesting to me that some of the people who complained about Man of Steel had issues with the Christ symbolism even as they took issue with the fact that he wasn't sufficiently Christ-like.

I think the great MoS debate showed that people have a much more specific viewpoint about the character compared to Batman. Superman has certainly been through his evolutions as others have commented. But people seem to have a viewpoint of what their ideal Superman is -- like a fly frozen in amber -- and react strongly when a rendition of the character doesn't match up to it. Perhaps it's because Superman is the first superhero they're attracted to as a child. Maybe it's just part of the whole idealized, aspirational thing the character has going on. I dunno. *shrug*

So what do I think about Superman II? Well, I think that the Donner cut ultimately doesn't really matter -- the film implies that he kills them, and blatently shows him acting in a decidedly un-Christ-like way at other times (worse than in MoS). I'm not well-read on the topic, but it seems fairly clear that those involved with the film after Donner were trying to shake up the character in a variety of ways...from behavior (don't forget hooking up him with Lois, then disturbingly erasing her memory...yikes) to powers (Kryptonian finger lasers, "S" entangling gadgets, Super-Forgetful Kisses, etc.).

So why wasn't Superman II met with the same kind of scorn as Man of Steel (and let's face it, SII wasn't a great film)? Well, obviously the Zod death wasn't nearly as shocking or graphic in SII as in MoS. And regarding the other stuff, I think the Super-Forgetful Kiss served as kind of a wink to viewers not to take any of it too seriously. And so they didn't. If Donner's cut had the time travel thing AGAIN, it'd function similarly.

Of course, what the time travel/kiss-of-this-never-happening stuff really represents is BAD WRITING. But that's been more or less the norm for Superman across all media for decades. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/610929/7125888.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/610929/7125888.page GMT Re:The Great Superman II Debate
 reds8n wrote:
In the deleted scenes it's seen they survive and are then arrested -- by the oh-so official sounding Arctic Police.



Pretty much this. They filmed a sequence where the bad guys were arrested after falling into the gorge (aparently, Supes keeps a mound of pillows at the bottom because of Arctic OSHA or something) and were carted off by the authorities. So, as originally written, Olde-Schoole Supes doesn't kill anybody, ever. Whether or not you want to include deleted scenes in your poll is up to you, but it is something worth pointing out.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/610929/7126617.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/610929/7126617.page GMT Re:The Great Superman II Debate
 reds8n wrote:
In the deleted scenes it's seen they survive and are then arrested -- by the oh-so official sounding Arctic Police.


.. I believe in the Donner cut Supes then -- again! -- goes back in time so none of it ever happened.


I thought you were kidding, but I never heard about the alternate/deleted scene where Zod and Co. end up getting arrested.

SO I checked it out on Wikipedia (I know, I know!) and it turns out...

...YOU'RE NOT KIDDING!

I also forgot about the "Kiss to Remove Memories" power too. Ugh. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/610929/7126641.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/610929/7126641.page GMT The Great Superman II Debate
reds8n wrote: In the deleted scenes it's seen they survive and are then arrested -- by the oh-so official sounding Arctic Police.


I've seen that and it stretches credibility even in a series where he reverses time by flying fast enough. There is a reason why it is a deleted scene.

squidhills wrote:So, as originally written, Olde-Schoole Supes doesn't kill anybody, ever.


Considering the different takes on the character and that even by the time Donner made Superman he was well into the several different iterations I'm not sure that "Old school" really fits since it doesn't really tell us which Superman. Even so, he has actually killed on rare occasions so that isn't an entirely accurate statement.

 gorgon wrote:
I think the great MoS debate showed that people have a much more specific viewpoint about the character compared to Batman.


I recall in the original MoS thread saying that it seemed that one of the issues is that unlike many other characters people have a very specific idea of what Superman should be and if it doesn't match up then it is upsetting. It had some pacing issues but one of the highlights to me was the scene with Zod where he had to make a tough choice between killing Zod or letting the family die without giving him some deus ex machina to keep him from an easy out.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/610929/7126681.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/610929/7126681.page GMT The Great Superman II Debate
 Ahtman wrote:


Considering the different takes on the character and that even by the time Donner made Superman he was well into the several different iterations I'm not sure that "Old school" really fits since it doesn't really tell us which Superman. Even so, he has actually killed on rare occasions so that isn't an entirely accurate statement.


Next you'll be telling me the Tooth Fairy isn't real. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/610929/7126741.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/610929/7126741.page GMT The Great Superman II Debate
 Ahtman wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
I think the great MoS debate showed that people have a much more specific viewpoint about the character compared to Batman.


I recall in the original MoS thread saying that it seemed that one of the issues is that unlike many other characters people have a very specific idea of what Superman should be and if it doesn't match up then it is upsetting. It had some pacing issues but one of the highlights to me was the scene with Zod where he had to make a tough choice between killing Zod or letting the family die without giving him some deus ex machina to keep him from an easy out.


EXACTLY! It's been a flaw in the character's writing going back decades. Every tough situation has an out, usually involving some ludicrous application of his abilities, or the spontaneous creation of a new ability.

The Silver Age Supes probably would have solved the MoS dilemma by using his super breath to create a reflective ice mirror to protect the family, then assembling a Phantom Zone projector at super speed out of random materials in the station. This gak happened all the time, especially in the Silver Age and pre-Crisis. I recall an issue from the '70s in which he saved Steve Lombard from a supersonic flaming, then exploding car by "using his super-breath to carefully wrap him in a protective layer of cold" (paraphasing). Lombard got off with a sunburn, IIRC.

MoS gave a giant middle finger to all of that, by not letting Supes off the hook, actually testing his morality, and forcing him to make a choice. The idea that he can have his cake and eat it too just doesn't ring true if you demand any realism from the character. It's why I don't have an issue with him killing Zod in SII, the comics, or in MoS. At the end of the day, is Superman there to protect or not? Zod and his gang are effectively world-killers. Can Superman absolutely guarantee the survival of the planet if he let Zod and his cronies live only because of his personal moral code? Can he guarantee that not one single person on Earth or elsewhere will ever lose their life if Zod lives? What does a *good man* do in that situation?

But you know, some people don't want a realistic Superman, and so none of this matters to them. They want the bad writing if it means a completely happy ending...it's what they're used to and have come to expect. They want the guy who walks into the President's office and gives that corny, painful speech. They want comfort food...they want Mom's meatloaf, even if Mom's meatloaf isn't the best around. So they feel that MoS gave them a giant middle finger. *shrug*

Again, I think an interesting point is how SII dodged the criticism that MoS received. SII Clark is arguably more of a jerk. MoS Clark wrecks a truck...SII Clark probably put the guy in the hospital. I can only guess that the overall tone had a lot do with the reception. Well, that and Super-Forgetful Kisses.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/610929/7126799.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/610929/7126799.page GMT The Great Superman II Debate
 gorgon wrote:
But you know, some people don't want a realistic Superman, and so none of this matters to them. They want the bad writing if it means a completely happy ending...it's what they're used to and have come to expect. They want the guy who walks into the President's office and gives that corny, painful speech. They want comfort food...they want Mom's meatloaf, even if Mom's meatloaf isn't the best around. So they feel that MoS gave them a giant middle finger. *shrug*


While the Superman you describe is the Superman I also prefer, it's a mistake to conclude the Superman who doesn't have to make hard choice is automatically bad writing. That's just 'your fun is bad wrong' kind of thinking.

Again, I think an interesting point is how SII dodged the criticism that MoS received.


Yeah, that is something this thread has caused me to think about. It might just be that we hold comic book movies to a much higher standard these days. Or it might that we didn't have the internet when Superman II came out.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/610929/7127875.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/610929/7127875.page GMT The Great Superman II Debate
 gorgon wrote:
 Ahtman wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
I think the great MoS debate showed that people have a much more specific viewpoint about the character compared to Batman.


I recall in the original MoS thread saying that it seemed that one of the issues is that unlike many other characters people have a very specific idea of what Superman should be and if it doesn't match up then it is upsetting. It had some pacing issues but one of the highlights to me was the scene with Zod where he had to make a tough choice between killing Zod or letting the family die without giving him some deus ex machina to keep him from an easy out.


EXACTLY! It's been a flaw in the character's writing going back decades. Every tough situation has an out, usually involving some ludicrous application of his abilities, or the spontaneous creation of a new ability.

The Silver Age Supes probably would have solved the MoS dilemma by using his super breath to create a reflective ice mirror to protect the family, then assembling a Phantom Zone projector at super speed out of random materials in the station. This gak happened all the time, especially in the Silver Age and pre-Crisis. I recall an issue from the '70s in which he saved Steve Lombard from a supersonic flaming, then exploding car by "using his super-breath to carefully wrap him in a protective layer of cold" (paraphasing). Lombard got off with a sunburn, IIRC.

MoS gave a giant middle finger to all of that, by not letting Supes off the hook, actually testing his morality, and forcing him to make a choice. The idea that he can have his cake and eat it too just doesn't ring true if you demand any realism from the character. It's why I don't have an issue with him killing Zod in SII, the comics, or in MoS. At the end of the day, is Superman there to protect or not? Zod and his gang are effectively world-killers. Can Superman absolutely guarantee the survival of the planet if he let Zod and his cronies live only because of his personal moral code? Can he guarantee that not one single person on Earth or elsewhere will ever lose their life if Zod lives? What does a *good man* do in that situation?

But you know, some people don't want a realistic Superman, and so none of this matters to them. They want the bad writing if it means a completely happy ending...it's what they're used to and have come to expect. They want the guy who walks into the President's office and gives that corny, painful speech. They want comfort food...they want Mom's meatloaf, even if Mom's meatloaf isn't the best around. So they feel that MoS gave them a giant middle finger. *shrug*

Again, I think an interesting point is how SII dodged the criticism that MoS received. SII Clark is arguably more of a jerk. MoS Clark wrecks a truck...SII Clark probably put the guy in the hospital. I can only guess that the overall tone had a lot do with the reception. Well, that and Super-Forgetful Kisses.


Zod without his powers would probably just end up being the town drunk, or just be locked up indefinitely in a secret government location. Now someone Sups should have killed a long time ago is Lex. Now there's a man who's threatened the world many times and killed many people (mostly indirectly, but he's ultimately responsible for their deaths.) ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/610929/7134512.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/610929/7134512.page GMT