<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Balancing the Daemons Psychic Maddness"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/16.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Balancing the Daemons Psychic Maddness Malefic Daemonology makes this even worse, as summoning a few Horrors and/or Tzheralds allows for a continuous replenishment/force multiplier, which can also be further boosted by bringing the Portalglyph artifact.
When Grey Knights got their 7th ed codex, they had a number of the additional Warp Charge generators, (namely plentiful, cheap transports), removed entirely. I think Daemons are in need of a similar 'reigning in' to put a stop to our ability to fielding 18-20+ WC's without even breaking a sweat.

Khorne however is in need a drastic boost to his Psychic defense, as despite being the God who hates cowardly magical shenanigans, he's really quite awful at defending against Psychic powers!
Hence, a few suggestions:

Daemon of Khorne: Hatred: Daemons of Slaanesh, all models gain the Adamantium Will & Furious Charge USR's.
Collar of Khorne changes to giving the model +2 to their invuln save vs. any wounds caused by Psychic abilities and Force Weapons.

***Reasoning: Khorne is now more apt at defending against psychic attacks as fits with his background, though non-targeted powers are still a big threat to them. Hounds, similar to their role in Fantasy, become a premier unit at hunting down those cowards who would hide behind magical trickery!


Daemons of Tzeentch may select their Psychic powers from the lores of Tzeentch, Pyromancy, Divination and/or Malefic.
Daemons of Slaanesh may select their Psychic powers from the lores of Slaanesh, Telepathy and/or Malefic.
Daemons of Nurgle may select their Psychic powers from the lores of Nurgle, Biomancy, and/or Malefic

Heralds of Slaanesh & Nurgle may purchase Psychic Mastery Lv1
Heralds of Tzeentch begin as Lv1 Psykers, may purchase Mastery Lv2.

***Reasoning: Princes are now properly locked into the same lores as the rest of the characters of their respective Gods. Heralds are proper supporters, with Tzeentch still being more adept than the other Gods, as befits the God of Magic's servants.
The cheapest WC farmers, (namely Tzheralds), are now more sane and on the same level as most other Psykers in the game. Lv3 is left to the 'big guys'.

Pink Horrors of Tzeentch: Brotherhood of Psykers, Magic Made Manifest.
Always know the following powers: Flickering Fire of Tzeentch, Bolt of Tzeentch, Flame Breath.
Magic made Manifest: Units of Pink Horrors are a Mastery Lv1 Psyker. However, when determining Deny the Witch rolls, treat the unit as the following; 1-9 models = Lv1, 10-15 = Lv2, 16+ = Lv3.

***Reasoning: The biggest source of mass WC generation on the cheap is no more. However, larger units maintain their relevance as their powers will be harder to stop, while also being able to defend much better against enemy powers.


As well, all 3 of the God specific lores get fully fleshed out into a proper 6 spells + Primaris. Both Daemons & CSM's would then use the same spell lists, similar to how things work in Fantasy with Daemons & Warriors of Chaos.

Lore of Tzeentch:
Primaris: Flickering Fire of Tzeentch WC1-3
Witchfire S5/ap4/Assault 2D6+2 -OR- S4/ap4/Assault 3D6+3 -OR- S3/ap4/Assault 4D6+4

1. Treason of Tzeentch WC1
24"/Malediction.
Target unit must use the lowest Ld value in the unit for all moral & leadership tests.

2. Pink Fire of Tzeentch WC1
Witchfire SD6/ap4/Assault 1 Torrent

3. Bolt of Change WC1
24"/Beam SD6+4/ap1/Assault 1

4. Glean Magic WC2
18"/Malediction.
Select a single enemy psyker within range. Both the caster & target roll a D6 + Ld. If the caster's roll is higher, the target immediately suffers a single S3/ap- hit and forgets a randomly determined psychic power. The caster may then attempt to use this power once, after which, the stolen power is destroyed.

5. Tzeentch's Firestorm WC2
Nova/9"/SD3+1/ap5/Assault 2D6

6. Infernal Gateway WC2
18"/Witchfire/S2D6*/ap2/Assault 1 Blast
If an 11 or 12 is rolled when determining strength, the shot counts as S10 and uses the Large Blast template.


Lore of Slaanesh:
Primaris: Lash of Slaanesh WC1
24"/Beam S4/ap5/Rending, Ignores Cover

1. Acquiescence WC1
24"/Malediction
Target unit much pass a Ld test each time it wishes to move, shoot, fire Overwatch or assault. If the test is failed, the action is lost. Vehicles count as Ld10.

2. Pavane of Slaanesh WC1
18"/Focused Witchfire.
The target model must pass a Ld test on its own leadership. If the test is failed, the model suffers a single wound with no armour or cover saves allowed. If a unit suffers any wounds, it must immediately take a Pinning test.

3. Hysterical Frenzy WC2
18"/Blessing OR 18"/Malediction
The target unit gains the Rage & Furious Charge USR's and must attempt to assault if an enemy unit is within range at the beginning of their Assault phase. In addition, each time the target unit takes any actions, (moving, shooting, assault, etc...), it immediately suffers D6 S4 hits with the Rending rule due to their uncontrolled frenzy.

4. Slicing Shards WC2
24"/Witchfire/*special
The target unit immediately suffers D6/S4/ap- hits with the Rending rule. The unit must then immediately take a Toughness test. If the test is failed, the unit suffers an additional D6/S4 Rending hits. Keep taking Toughness tests until the unit passes or is destroyed.

5. Phantasmagoria WC1
24"/Malediction
The target unit must roll an additional D6 whenever taking any form of Ld test, and discard the lowest roll from the result.

6. Cacophonic Choir WC2
6"/Nova *special
All units within range of the power immediately take a Ld test. For every point the test is failed by, the unit suffers a wound with no armour or cover saves allowed. Any unit suffering at least one wound must immediately test for Pinning and will strike at -5I during the next Assault phase.


Lore of Nurgle:
Forthcoming!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/636957/7614569.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/636957/7614569.page GMT Balancing the Daemons Psychic Maddness
I like the proposed changes to Khorne, but aren't you kind of hindering peoples ability to make heralds potent psykers? I know that's the point, but I rather like the idea of heralds being potent battle mages. It's just daemonology that interacts poorly with their high psyker level. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/636957/7614722.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/636957/7614722.page GMT Balancing the Daemons Psychic Maddness http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/636957/7614761.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/636957/7614761.page GMT Balancing the Daemons Psychic Maddness
I see the think about Daemon princes taking from other disciplines being abit irksome, but I don't think it's particularly OP (personally I'd love it if my Tzeentch DP could roll on divination) having a DP being able to roll on Bio/Pyro/Telepathy/Malefic.

Also while Daemons can absolutely crush the psychic phase they have virtually zero shooting, so that's some what of a balancer, I use to quite like FF horror blobs, but they had so many hoops to jump through to get it off in 6th ed, and now it's only gotten harder in 7th.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/636957/7614827.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/636957/7614827.page GMT Balancing the Daemons Psychic Maddness
Wyldhunt wrote:
Seems fine overall. I only sort of skimmed the new powers as I don't have my own 'dex handy to compare them to the current powers. They seem flavorful, though i worry that adding to the number of powers in a discipline makes it more difficult for tzeentch armies to get anti-tank in the form of bolt of change.

I like the proposed changes to Khorne, but aren't you kind of hindering peoples ability to make heralds potent psykers? I know that's the point, but I rather like the idea of heralds being potent battle mages. It's just daemonology that interacts poorly with their high psyker level.


Don't forget that under these hypothetical changes, Pink Horrors are now essentially a daemonic version of a 'Tactical Squad'.
They've got Flickering Fire as their 'basic' small arms, Bolt of Tzeentch as their optional 'heavy weapon', and Flame Breath as their 'special weapon' slot.

As for Heralds, they're meant to be roughly equal to the basic Psykers of the other races. Tzheralds compete at the same level as your average 'top level' psyker for the most part, but are still below the few other true psychic masters such as Farseers.
Right now IMHO, our Heralds are too potent. In Fantasy, Heralds are only Lv1-2 casters. However right now, our Heralds are the rough equivalents of Lv2-3 casters, which would be the equivalent of our basic 'Heroes' being on the power level of lower end 'Lords' in Fantasy!


 AnomanderRake wrote:
I really hope there's a price drop for Pink Horrors along with this; they're absolutely not worth 9ppm if they're always ML1.


Why? While they can now only cast a single power a turn, they'll still typically be casting & dispelling as a Lv2 on average, and larger squads will still maintain the equivalent of a Lv3 with their single casting.
Right now we have the problem that most players it seem use Horrors in 11-12 strong squads in order to min/max their WC farming. If Grey Knights deserved to lose their cheapo WC farmers through their transports, then Horrors should likewise follow suit and no longer be able to generate added WC's.


 CaptainJay wrote:
They look interesting enough, certainly I'd be a big fan of Khorne getting some buffs. However I think only flesh hounds have collars of khorne, so admantium will isn't that big a buff (except for flesh hounds who are now denying on a 3+), as denying on a 5+ is okay, but given you'll be throwing less dice than your opponent (due to Khorne units not generating any psychic dice).

I see the think about Daemon princes taking from other disciplines being abit irksome, but I don't think it's particularly OP (personally I'd love it if my Tzeentch DP could roll on divination) having a DP being able to roll on Bio/Pyro/Telepathy/Malefic.

Also while Daemons can absolutely crush the psychic phase they have virtually zero shooting, so that's some what of a balancer, I use to quite like FF horror blobs, but they had so many hoops to jump through to get it off in 6th ed, and now it's only gotten harder in 7th.


1. All Khorne units change to AW. Collars instead lose their current AW rules, and gain instead a +2 to invulns vs. psychic powers & force toys. Essentially going back to the previous codex versions, but capping it at a 3++ as opposed to the old 2++ vs. those attacks. Still 'uber, but not quite 'near immunity'... You could still get to a 2++ sure, but you'll need to spend some psychic abilities to do so.

2. It's perhaps not OP for Princes to have free reign over the power selections, but it's definitely sloppy. Every Psyker follows the same rules regarding which lores they can select from, and in Fantasy, Princes are equally limited in their selections as the rest of the daemonic casters. It just seems more like a bookkeeping mistake.

3. We have more shooting than people typically give us credit for... Flamers + Exalts, Burning Chariots, Khannons, Soul Grinders, anything Slaanesh w/Lash, Screamer fly-byes... While it's mostly all short ranged, we can still put down a decent amount of dice if we really want to.
Plus we've now got the new IA13 which adds in a new Battle Bro option through the Renegades list which provides a ludicrous amount of very cheap shooting, on top of CSM allies if we want to mix things up a bit.
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