<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Kataphron Destroyers - Plasma or Grav?"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Kataphron Destroyers - Plasma or Grav? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8118456.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8118456.page GMT Kataphron Destroyers - Plasma or Grav?
Did I mention Grav?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8118502.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8118502.page GMT Re:Kataphron Destroyers - Plasma or Grav? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8118536.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8118536.page GMT Kataphron Destroyers - Plasma or Grav? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8118549.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8118549.page GMT Kataphron Destroyers - Plasma or Grav? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8118605.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8118605.page GMT Re:Kataphron Destroyers - Plasma or Grav? DW iirc. Grav is your better bet. The only situation the Plasma is better is when enemy is in b2b that is when Terminators deep strike. At which time each of your small blast may cover 2 to 3 models.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8119463.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8119463.page GMT Kataphron Destroyers - Plasma or Grav?
So as usual it depends entirely on what you are fighting, and it makes no sense to ask "which is better" in a vacuum..

Grav is close to useless against ork or guard or tyranid mobs, or eldar, but plasma effective. Plasma is also effective againsg MEQ, but less so than grav. Against MCs grav is the winner. Against vehicles it depends on kind of vehicle.

Incidentally plasma will ID multi-wound T3 models (Eldar and guard characters, Skitarii); grav will not.

It is I think a massive, but common, error to look at the effectiveness of weapons only against their supposedly preferred target, and determine that target based on AP vs. armour save. The prefered target of plasma is not GEQ, or MEQ, or whatever, but infantry as a class. That of grav is anything with a high armor save, regardless of type (MC, infantry, etc.) So plasma is effective against all armies that have infantry. Grav is only effective against MEQ or TEQ; it is useless against GEQ.

I realize that grav amps change this a bit, but Mechanicus does not have those.

So, what are you fighting?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8121374.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8121374.page GMT Kataphron Destroyers - Plasma or Grav? ROF of grav weapons, combined with the flamer, means they're not so bad against hordes.

Seriously. Your unit has minimum 3 flamers. Stop worrying about hordes. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8122115.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8122115.page GMT Kataphron Destroyers - Plasma or Grav?
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The problem is that the ROF of grav weapons, combined with the flamer, means they're not so bad against hordes.

Seriously. Your unit has minimum 3 flamers. Stop worrying about hordes.


I actually prefer the cover reducing of the phosphor blaster unless I know I'm fighting the Green Tide or lots of Gaunts. Can really come in handy at times. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8122351.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8122351.page GMT Kataphron Destroyers - Plasma or Grav?
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The problem is that the ROF of grav weapons, combined with the flamer, means they're not so bad against hordes.

Seriously. Your unit has minimum 3 flamers. Stop worrying about hordes.


The ROF of the grav cannon really does not make it good against hordes. It is actually extremely awful.

vs. Orks, 3 grav cannons do 1/2 x 1/6 = 1/12 x 18 = 1.5 wounds, assuming the orks have no cover.

wooo

(against Kroot in woods they kill .75. )

Now the flamers ARE good against hordes (at close range, which probably isn't where a Destroyer wants to be). But flamers + plasma are better! And the plasma has range.

For me the real issue is that I need something in my army (which I am building) which is good against the Wraithknight that I am sure to come across, which means grav.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Incidentally, the absolute worst target for grav is low or no armour + cover or invulnerable save + feel no pain or the equivalent. Against something like Mandrakes or Kommandos or Electro Priests it is almost side-splittingly bad.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway, my point was not about hordes specifically, but that plasma is good against all infantry (it is equally effective against every infantry unit in the game except those that have cover or invulnerable saves), whereas grav is good only against heavy infantry.

So, if infantry is your concern and you are expecting to go up only against heavy infantry (you're fighting Grey Knights, say), take grav. If you are expecting a wider variety (you're fighting Orks, maybe, where you might have both 6+ and 2+), take plasma.

That's my advice anyway.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8122443.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8122443.page GMT Kataphron Destroyers - Plasma or Grav? MCs and vehicles. But the thing about being good against light infantry is that that's not really a compliment because all basic shooting is good against light infantry. If you're looking at the difference between plasma and grav you're looking at it for killing heavy infantry and MCs, not light infantry. Grav is better in that regard]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8122560.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8122560.page GMT Kataphron Destroyers - Plasma or Grav?
Alcibiades wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The problem is that the ROF of grav weapons, combined with the flamer, means they're not so bad against hordes.

Seriously. Your unit has minimum 3 flamers. Stop worrying about hordes.


The ROF of the grav cannon really does not make it good against hordes. It is actually extremely awful.

vs. Orks, 3 grav cannons do 1/2 x 1/6 = 1/12 x 18 = 1.5 wounds, assuming the orks have no cover.

wooo

(against Kroot in woods they kill .75. )

Now the flamers ARE good against hordes (at close range, which probably isn't where a Destroyer wants to be). But flamers + plasma are better! And the plasma has range.

For me the real issue is that I need something in my army (which I am building) which is good against the Wraithknight that I am sure to come across, which means grav.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Incidentally, the absolute worst target for grav is low or no armour + cover or invulnerable save + feel no pain or the equivalent. Against something like Mandrakes or Kommandos or Electro Priests it is almost side-splittingly bad.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway, my point was not about hordes specifically, but that plasma is good against all infantry (it is equally effective against every infantry unit in the game except those that have cover or invulnerable saves), whereas grav is good only against heavy infantry.

So, if infantry is your concern and you are expecting to go up only against heavy infantry (you're fighting Grey Knights, say), take grav. If you are expecting a wider variety (you're fighting Orks, maybe, where you might have both 6+ and 2+), take plasma.

That's my advice anyway.


The issue with grav not being good against hordes is that yes, they suck against hordes, but most hordes either want to get somewhat close to you (Orks, Gaunts, Gants, most Daemons) or you outrange (Guard, Sororitas, other Daemons, Chaos Space Marines). So you can easily beat them with either flamers or moving away.

Also, with a very few rare exceptions, they also come with something else Grav is excellent against, like vehicles (Orks, Sororitas, Guard, Chaos Space Marines) or Monstrous Critters (Gaunts, Gants, Chaos Daemons)


Also, plasma Get's Hot! which isn't fantastic on a model with a 4+.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8122927.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8122927.page GMT Kataphron Destroyers - Plasma or Grav?
But the thing about being good against light infantry is that that's not really a compliment because all basic shooting is good against light infantry.


Which is why this is a more relevant discussion for Kataphron destroyers; a Cult Mechanicus force doesn't actually have much basic small arms fire. They have wierd-ass special weapons and heavy weapons out the wazoo, but not really any 'dudes with rifles'.

By comparison, the other classic grav-bunnies; astartes bikes and centurions, all come with at least one twin-linked bolter on each model.

If the Kataphrons have a Skitarii contingent (with BS4 rapid-fire weapons) or a knight lance (with ordnance templates) in support, then fine. But it's a reasonable concern for pure cult forces.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8123128.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8123128.page GMT Kataphron Destroyers - Plasma or Grav?
Plasma is only a consideration in the Convocation that Ignores get hot, and even then you still want grav]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8129213.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8129213.page GMT Kataphron Destroyers - Plasma or Grav?
locarno24 wrote:
But the thing about being good against light infantry is that that's not really a compliment because all basic shooting is good against light infantry.


Which is why this is a more relevant discussion for Kataphron destroyers; a Cult Mechanicus force doesn't actually have much basic small arms fire. They have wierd-ass special weapons and heavy weapons out the wazoo, but not really any 'dudes with rifles'.

By comparison, the other classic grav-bunnies; astartes bikes and centurions, all come with at least one twin-linked bolter on each model.

If the Kataphrons have a Skitarii contingent (with BS4 rapid-fire weapons) or a knight lance (with ordnance templates) in support, then fine. But it's a reasonable concern for pure cult forces.


EXACTLY. What else in the codex is there?

Corpuscarii will do huge damage, but they are very squishy and have to get in close.

Breachers are horrible against light infantry (or any infantry except T3-4 multiwound if they have torsion cannons).

So... what else is there? Kastellan robots -- who are really expensive.

Destroyers with plasma are the codex's anti-infantry (as a class, not just heavy infantry) unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another way of looking at it, in keeping with the Mechanicus theme of maximum overkill, is that the AdMech's anti-horde weapon can also kill Terminators.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8130328.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8130328.page GMT Kataphron Destroyers - Plasma or Grav? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8130778.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8130778.page GMT Kataphron Destroyers - Plasma or Grav? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8131558.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8131558.page GMT Kataphron Destroyers - Plasma or Grav? MEQ and TEQ killers. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8131561.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8131561.page GMT Kataphron Destroyers - Plasma or Grav?
 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Grav. You have other things for killing hordes. These guys are your MEQ and TEQ killers.


Unless you have allies, your anti-horde units other than Destroyers are

Corpuscarii (which actually on paper do a hell of a lot of damage)
Kastelan Robots

Anyway as I mentioned above I think that viewing things as anti-x is often misleading. Plasma is anti-x, -y, and -z: it is versatile. It cares not if it is fighting GEQ or MEQ -- it's all the same to plasma. Grav is not. If you bring your grav list and find out that your opponent has brought a horde army, those points have been wasted.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am not saying that the OP SHOULD bring plasma -- but that it depends on what he thinks that he is likely to be fighting. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8132430.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8132430.page GMT Kataphron Destroyers - Plasma or Grav? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8132846.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8132846.page GMT Kataphron Destroyers - Plasma or Grav?
 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Grav, no question

Plasma is only a consideration in the Convocation that Ignores get hot, and even then you still want grav


most def, it just has more applications. I love plasma, and don't have any other armies that can use grav so im not a fanboy either]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8133192.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8133192.page GMT Kataphron Destroyers - Plasma or Grav? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8133361.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8133361.page GMT Kataphron Destroyers - Plasma or Grav?
Because tau supremacy armor can eat it. 600 points of Grav Destroyers will blenderize it -even without- canticles.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8136015.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/663593/8136015.page GMT