<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Eldar vs Dark Eldar"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/31.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Eldar vs Dark Eldar
All of the Eldar from the craft worlds believe that they have no choice but to destroy the Dark Eldar. Vect gives the order to destroy the craft worlds. Who wins?

If the Eldar need help they can recruit rangers and others off the path, but for the most part exodites and harlequins will be staying out of the fight.

Remember that there is no time limit - the Eldar don't need to invade Commoragh, they need to destroy the Dark Eldar.


As an addendum - one craftworld vs one powerful archon (not vect). The Craftworld will bring whatever it can to bear against this archon. Other archons or harlequin may help for their own benefit, but will not work directly with the cw. The archon has stolen a bunch of their spirit stones, so they would like to invade his tower. He wants to steal more spirit stones and will do whatever he can to get them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8233236.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8233236.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar DE probably. Thanks to their use of vat-born the population of the DE is surprisingly high, much higher than the Craftworld Eldar suspect probably. They would probably be able to overrun the Craftworlds.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8233256.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8233256.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar DE are raiders. They do not have the space fleets or heavy weapons (in fact, they have no heavy weapons at all) to take on the Craftworlds in a straight fight. DE fight opponents by ambushing them and destroying them piecemeal, but how much help their cunning would be against Craftworld farseers remains to be seen.
In any case, the DE would have a hard time destroying the Eldar Craftworlds, assuming the CE seal their portals. The DE have no other way to travel but the Webway.
Neither do the CE have the expendable numbers to attack Commorragh on the other hand, so I think it would be very much a stalemate. No side would be able to destroy the other.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8233496.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8233496.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar DE and the Eldar need each other because they are both faced with the same end game if either one falters.

The number one utmost important thing in DE/Eldar lives is staving off Slannesh. Should either falter, Slannesh wins and then even the victor of this fight is lost forever as their souls are consumed.

It really is a no win situation. Sure they might squabble here and there, Big Brother / Little Brother syndrome but each side knows that they cannot exist without the other as Slannesh would gain too much power consuming the loosing side.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8233590.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8233590.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar DE. Prevent them from bringing in enough slaves to feed their population and suddenly the DE are forced to fight more conventional battles.

I never thought that the DE had a larger population. Aren't they also supposed to be better fighters?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8233719.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8233719.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar
 Iron_Captain wrote:
The DE are raiders. They do not have the space fleets or heavy weapons (in fact, they have no heavy weapons at all) to take on the Craftworlds in a straight fight. DE fight opponents by ambushing them and destroying them piecemeal, but how much help their cunning would be against Craftworld farseers remains to be seen.
In any case, the DE would have a hard time destroying the Eldar Craftworlds, assuming the CE seal their portals. The DE have no other way to travel but the Webway.
Neither do the CE have the expendable numbers to attack Commorragh on the other hand, so I think it would be very much a stalemate. No side would be able to destroy the other.


Dark Eldar have their own fleets and some even operate exclusively in real space. Also you don't have to have a physical webway portal, there are portable ones that can be used from inside the webway to exit into realspace. You wouldn't be able to take an army though it though.

It would likely end up coming down to attrition. Dark Eldar can replace their loses relatively easily, Eldar, not so much.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8233757.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8233757.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar
I'd expect the Dark Eldar effort to be marked by infighting and Kabals working at cross purposes, wasting resources in turf fights and competition. Even assuming that Dark Eldar were united by, say, a Vect I think the infighting would continue.

As others have noted, the Dark Eldar are really raiders, not conquerors. They would not tolerate the kind of standup toe to toe fighting it would require to capture even a single Craftworld. By contrast, some of the Craftworlds have already engaged in wars of attrition and survival (Iyanden!). They are experienced in that kind of combat, though they don't like it, and the other Craftworlds would defer to their leadership to ensure their own survival.

I can't imagine Craftworlds ever trying to invade Commoragh. They're interested in surviving and preserving the remnants of high Eldar culture, not conquest.

Then again, I can't imagine the Dark Eldar attacking a Craftworld unless it was to raid for captives, artifacts and the like. As others have said, conquest just doesn't square with their inward-looking, sybaritic outlook.

My two cents.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8235047.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8235047.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8235070.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8235070.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar
Also for whoever says Dark Elder are raiders, and therefore cannot take on Craftworlds is seriously over estimating the amount of aid one craftworld can give another. Most craftworlds are isolated, no bigger then a single planet and far removed from each other, which is, is it not, the perfect situation for a Raid? Dark Elder regularly raid entire worlds, even heavily defended one's, before melting away.

Dark Elder out number Craftworlders, have technology specifically designed to defeat them (they use psychic screamers during assaults and planning to make divination difficult) and are generally a more militaristic race. Sure, every citizen may be a Guardian, but Dark Elder have had to employ murder all of their lives will always win out against a militia who rarely see combat and live in an ideal.society.

If the Elder presented a United front, they stand a much better chance, but as they are now with half a galaxy between many of the craftworlds it seems they are the perfect targets for a determined Dark Elder raid.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8235158.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8235158.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar
 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Dark Eldar have raided entire Craftworlds before, admittedly none of the bigger ones, but they have done so. Vect personally owns an entire army of hundreds of thousands of castigors, Dark Eldar corrupted Wraith guard each powered by a soul stone stripped from the infinity circuit of craftworlds Dark Elder have raided.

Also for whoever says Dark Elder are raiders, and therefore cannot take on Craftworlds is seriously over estimating the amount of aid one craftworld can give another. Most craftworlds are isolated, no bigger then a single planet and far removed from each other, which is, is it not, the perfect situation for a Raid? Dark Elder regularly raid entire worlds, even heavily defended one's, before melting away.

Dark Elder out number Craftworlders, have technology specifically designed to defeat them (they use psychic screamers during assaults and planning to make divination difficult) and are generally a more militaristic race. Sure, every citizen may be a Guardian, but Dark Elder have had to employ murder all of their lives will always win out against a militia who rarely see combat and live in an ideal.society.

If the Elder presented a United front, they stand a much better chance, but as they are now with half a galaxy between many of the craftworlds it seems they are the perfect targets for a determined Dark Elder raid.

You are forgetting the Webway. Physical distance does not matter to the Eldar, remember?
That said, if the Craftworlders seal their portals, the Commorrites would have a damn hard time even getting to a craftworld.
The Dark Eldar raid even heavily defended worlds, that is true, but they always do it in such a way they never have to face the full might of their enemy. Instead they force them to spread their forces thin and destroy them piece by piece. That manipulation is going to be much harder to carry out against a Farseer. The Dark Eldar also lack the weapons to deal with the heaviest of a Craftworld's forces, such as Titans and superheavy grav tanks. Normally, the Dark Eldar just find a way around such warmachines, but that won't be possible in this case. Also, I disagree with an individual Dark Eldar being a better fighter than a Craftworlder. Being a murderer requires entirely different skills from being a soldier. The Craftworlders, through their superior discipline and training, would win out in a battle. The Dark Eldar may be better individual fighters, but not soldiers.

Depending on the circumstances of the war, it could go either way, but overall I still think it is going to be a stalemate.

Also, where did the Dark Eldar raid a craftworld? That is some fluff I'd love to read.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8235225.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8235225.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar
It's important to remember the Webways aren't magic portals, they are a high way. A high way the Dark Elder vastly own. Have you seen the map of the webway in the Harlequin codex? Commarragh is truly colossal, occupying at least 4 major hubs in desperate part of the galaxy. If the Craftworlders seal their portals, then the Dark Eldar navy will nip at its flanks sharks. Most craftworlds are small, say there are about 120 floating around and th only ones large enough for us to know about are what? 12? The rest are stated to be smaller, isolated, easy prey. I admit a Craftworld like Ulthwe and Biel-tan would be very had crack but the vast majority would be overwhelmed.

Also Farseers have proven far from infallible, and Craftworld are prideful to a fault. Eldrad warned Iyanden of the Tyranidz but they're to slow to react. On the other hand Archons are likely to know some craftworlds inside out, having informants and corsairs formally of that craftworlds, who will help lay out plans.

As for Dark Eldar being better then Elder in combat, it is explicitly stated Dark Eldar ars.superior to their craftworlds brethren, saying they have better reactions and physical strength. And during raids discipline is paramount, as all of them at meticulously planned. Sure an aspect warrior might have a one up on a Kabalite, but a Kabalite has a big advantage over a guardian. And Guardian make the largest majority of th defence force.

On the heavy weapon front, the Ravager is a vehicle assassin. They are kitted.with all the info on their target, then in tandem with others, are brutally effective at takin out Titians. Specifically in apocalypse the Ravager titian Hunter formation was one of the only weapons in the game to ignore holofields due to it having special tech to break through shields. And Eldar heavy gear was only heavy due to the holofields without it they barely had an AV of 13 between them.

Can anyone give a review of how Dark Eldar faired in battle fleet gothic? That might also yield some good fluff.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8235394.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8235394.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar
 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Masque the Vyle is a story about Harlequins avenging a craftworld they found totally depopulated, while Path of the Archon includes Vects castigors.

It's important to remember the Webways aren't magic portals, they are a high way. You need a "magic portal" to get in or out of the Webway though, and those can be sealed.
A high way the Dark Elder vastly own. Have you seen the map of the webway in the Harlequin codex? Commarragh is truly colossal, occupying at least 4 major hubs in desperate part of the galaxy. If the Craftworlders seal their portals, then the Dark Eldar navy will nip at its flanks sharks.
You need a "magic portal" to get in or out of the Webway though, and those can be sealed. Without portal, there is no way to the Craftworld except having to physically find it, travel to it and then get through the escorting space fleet and defenses of the Craftworld itself. And what is "flanks sharks"?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Most craftworlds are small, say there are about 120 floating around and th only ones large enough for us to know about are what? 12? The rest are stated to be smaller, isolated, easy prey. I admit a Craftworld like Ulthwe and Biel-tan would be very had crack but the vast majority would be overwhelmed.

Also Farseers have proven far from infallible, and Craftworld are prideful to a fault. Eldrad warned Iyanden of the Tyranidz but they're to slow to react. On the other hand Archons are likely to know some craftworlds inside out, having informants and corsairs formally of that craftworlds, who will help lay out plans.
Farseers are not infallible, but they are still hell of a lot better at planning stuff than anyone who can't see into the future. The rest of this goes both ways. The Archons are not any less prideful. The Farseers are likely to know Commorragh inside out, having informants there or even having been there themselves. Corsairs might help the Craftworlds just as well as the Dark Eldar. The Webway means that Eldar warhosts from every Craftworld could coordinate their attack and all show up in Commorragh at the same time, totally overwhelming it. If three Space Marine strike cruisers did so much damage, imagine what the entire combined might of several major Craftworlds would do. And we have no idea how many Craftworlds are actually out there.


 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
As for Dark Eldar being better then Elder in combat, it is explicitly stated Dark Eldar ars.superior to their craftworlds brethren, saying they have better reactions and physical strength. And during raids discipline is paramount, as all of them at meticulously planned. Sure an aspect warrior might have a one up on a Kabalite, but a Kabalite has a big advantage over a guardian. And Guardian make the largest majority of th defence force.
Yes, the Dark Eldar are better fighters. A good fighter however, does not necessarily mean being a good soldier. The Kabalites are good soldiers, but not every Dark Eldar is a Kabalite. A large part of the Dark Eldar population would not be much use in a war, because they were never trained as soldiers. At most the Dark Eldar could use them as cheap cannon fodder. The Craftworld Eldar on the other hand have almost everyone of their population as a trained soldier.


 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
On the heavy weapon front, the Ravager is a vehicle assassin. They are kitted.with all the info on their target, then in tandem with others, are brutally effective at takin out Titians. Specifically in apocalypse the Ravager titian Hunter formation was one of the only weapons in the game to ignore holofields due to it having special tech to break through shields. And Eldar heavy gear was only heavy due to the holofields without it they barely had an AV of 13 between them.
If the Ravager is the heaviest the Dark Eldar have, it is not looking good. Ravagers are not very effective when compared to grav-tanks, especially not against enemies who can match them in speed and manoeuvrability. Ravagers are very vulnerable. They were designed to deal with isolated vehicles in hit-and-run ambushes. Most of the time they just get destroyed when trying to take on Titans or superheavies, and the Ravagers still have difficulty destroying them. The Craftworlds have much more effective vehicles for large-scale warfare. Dark Eldar really need something larger and more effective for taking on the increased amount of powerful superheavies in the game, but that is besides the point.

The only chance the Dark Eldar have is when they get to strike before the Craftworlds know an attack is coming, which is hard due to the Farseers. In such a surprise strike, the Dark Eldar could easily destroy an entire Craftworld and then move on to the next. If the Dark Eldar are not able to isolate the different Craftworlds either through surprise or cunning (again hard due to the farseers), they are done for. All-out warfare really is not fair for the Dark Eldar.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8235508.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8235508.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar In open combat dark eldar Become more powerful over time the more pain they experience. In an open battle there will be a lot of deaths so after initial poor performance in a pitched battle they may reach the heights where they are able to "move like quicksilver" and shrug off wounds that would kill most beings. Remember the haemonculi too, the dark eldar can unleash hundreds of grotesques and wraiths in each fight as well as pain engines which can therefore buff their Kabals before they even commit. You are also reckoning without the insane amounts of hoodwinking Vect is capable of pulling over his enemies. Black hole anyone?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh you've also got thousands of crazy ass super skilled wyches/bloodbrides/hekatrix]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8262695.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8262695.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar
 War Kitten wrote:
DE probably. Thanks to their use of vat-born the population of the DE is surprisingly high, much higher than the Craftworld Eldar suspect probably. They would probably be able to overrun the Craftworlds.

This alone is the tipping factor. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8262706.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8262706.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar DE would win, no doubt. But, because the Craftworld Eldar know where Commoragh is, their only chance would be to strike the city with everything, and annihilate its entire population in some way. If they could manage this, the Eldar could win.
That said, I still give it like an %80-%20 split for DE vs. CE.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8262800.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8262800.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar DE attack before it comes. Wars are lost and won on intel, and the Craftworld Eldar have access to far better intel.

They can also make up for the difference in numbers by bringing back their dead as wraithguard, wraithknights, wraithlords, etc, all extremely formidable warriors. They haven't done this a fraction as much as they are capable of because they don't want to disturb the dead. When pushed, Iyanden was able to keep its army at full strength with ghost warriors, despite being nearly completely depopulated.

Yes, DE would have numbers, but that's ALL they've got. If the Eldar decided to go all out, their awesome psychic power would be more than an equalizing factor. Numbers might win out in the IoM, but that's because they have literally a billion humans for every Eldar.

DE can't muster nearly those numbers. If they go crazy with the cloning and vat-born, that's going to jack up Commoragh. They've only got ONE city, really, and no matter how huge it is, the population would be too much to support and feed eventually. Warriors need souls and pain or they whither away. Plus they'll need all the raw living materials to make those warriors. They don't just magic them out of thin air. Cloning vats are fueled by pain and souls, just like the rest of DE society. DE population is limited by finite resources, unlike the Orks or Tyranids, who can be self-sustaining. Where are they going to get all the captives to fuel a sudden huge population increase? The Imperium? Oh, now they've got Space Marines, IG, and Ordo Xenos breathing down their necks, and suddenly they're fighting a war on two fronts.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8262819.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8262819.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar Ofc situationally, I believe DE haemonculi can see the future by consuming a farseers bones/brain]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8263434.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8263434.page GMT Re:Eldar vs Dark Eldar For the CE they have farseers which can fore see a large amount of usfull things, super heavy tanks and titans aspects and every single eldar is a soldier and almost every dead eldar can be too so thats not looking too bad.

And for the DE they have far greater number and every single Dark eldar is a murderer, Archons are incredibly devious to a point where out witting their CE brothers is rather simple, they also do have the tech specifically designed to kill psykers.

As for the other facts the Commorragh is unbelievably huge, unfathomably huge, and the webway itself is even bigger, do not ever underestimate how large the webway actually is. That being said the eldar wouldn't want to invade it due to the dark city being well dark and all dark eldar would have a huge edge over their kin due to this fact alone. So it would have to be won by the CE by some how (and i don't say this lightly) locking them in their city and away from real space. This way they could remain unharmed and avoid the fight (must to the eldar tact) and not have slannesh feed off souls of their dark kin.
For the DE to win really they just need to over whelm each craftworld one at a time and I'm sure that masters of the webway could easily seal shut a craftworlds webwy after their attack begins to cut of reinforcements. I know the farseers would see it but if they were at war they'll need very specific details that i'm not sure they could see.

It's a tough one really. But i'm sure Vect has already got a plan for it just in case...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8286462.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8286462.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8286472.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8286472.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8287071.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8287071.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar
This is the latest map of the Webway, from my counting it includes 10 separate mentions of Commarragh (Including Shaa-Dom). No other place gets mentioned more then once. Perhaps that sheds some light on it's shear size, and how much control of the Webway the Dark Eldar would have.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8287089.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8287089.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar
A single powerful Archon vs a single Craftworld is a completely different matter however. To get to the Archon, the Craftworld's forces would need to fight their way through the horrors of Commorragh and the forces of the Archon and his allies.
The Dark Eldar on the other hand are expert raiders. They would strike the Craftworld hard, keeping its defenders busy and distracted from the strike team that steals the spirit stones. Then they would dissapear as suddenly as they came. Dark Eldar raiders have done much more spectacular things, raiding a Craftworld would be routine.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8287135.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8287135.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar
Dark Eldar are stated to be stronger and faster then Craftworlders, they can also see in the Dark and have a form of Pain Vampirism. Non-Aspect Craftworlders live a cushy life, training to be Guardians but are rarely used in battle (When they have a choice, Guardians are not used when Aspects are available). Population vs Population, Dark Eldar win. It's the additional factors that need to be discussed. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8287149.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8287149.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar
 Psienesis wrote:
Commoragh is the size of a solar system. That's small potatoes compared to the rest of space. It's big, for a city, huge even, but it is not "unimaginably huge".


Yes it is. A dyson sphere would merely be the size of a solar system as well, yet you could fit more mass than what's in the galaxy into it IIRC.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8287238.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8287238.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar
To quote a famous Rogue Trader, "I dunno, I can imagine quite a bit."]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8295088.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8295088.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar
 Psienesis wrote:
That is because space is largely empty. That does not make a single solar system "unimaginably huge".
Semantics. Commorragh dwarfs the largest of human hives in the same way a mountain dwarfs a termite mound (and that comparison comes from the codex, 5th ed I believe). It's so huge, it couldn't possibly exist as a single entity in the physical world. And it contains stars. I think for a single connected city, that is unimaginably huge, in the same way an atom is unimaginably small.

But either way, I think we can all agree that it is really, really, REALLY big. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8296201.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8296201.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar DE have with attacking Craftowrlds is their ability to close off webway portals, it works in reverse and even if the Craftworlders can get into a hub of Commoragh they then have to deal with larger numbers and the fact that reinforcements can come from multiple directions.

The suggestion that most Dark Eldar aren't soldiers is also rubbish, of course they all are. Where as the Craftworlders see the need for the path system, where most of them will spend the majority of their lives doing some kind of job equivelant and only some of it as an Aspect Warrior, all Dark Eldar need to take part in raids to gain their vampiric sustenance. These raids of course being highly detailed and planned military operations. Sure, many of them will do things like build weapons but they'll then have fun making use of them as well.

Best of all, Commoragh has been around for thousands of years before the fall and was the prominent webway port even then. The codex hints pretty heavily that they have access to all manner of relics from the Eldar Empire capable of snuffing out star systems (they can steal stars pretty easily, shouldn't be hard to imagine they can destroy them as well) and several of them are of a psychic nature. The DE are still psykers, they just repress it for reasons of self preservation. It shouldn't be too much of a leap in imagination to see that the DE have plenty of access to things like old school Titans as well given their technology level, which I've seen no suggestion of at all that it's dropped in the slightest over the last 10 000 years, so weapons that can match wraithcannons and pulsars isn't much of a stretch.

The DE choose to live in the webway and only interact with realspace by raiding it for slaves meaning that in general their forces are geared towards such combat, but this doesnt remotely mean they don't have the ability to engage in larger scale combat or produce the weapons needed for it, or have them already. That combined with their far larger numbers (vat grown grunts plus bringing people back from the dead is available for the right price) should mean a DE victory. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8307363.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8307363.page GMT Re:Eldar vs Dark Eldar
The DE have the advantage in numbers, mobility, will to carry out the fight, and tech (thanks to the darker sorts of devices the Craftworld sub-species refuses to use). The only advantage the Craftworlders have is psykers. The divided nature of the divergent race also means that Vect could attack and destroy several of the Craftworlds before the ascetics are able to coordinate any kind of defense. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8308170.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8308170.page GMT Re:Eldar vs Dark Eldar
1: Phoenix lords. As I said I'm unaware of the dark eldar counterparts (I imagine it's special Archons) but as far as I know there should still be seven Phoenix lords available to plan and execute the destruction of comorragath, correct? Most of these guys (all but Karandras I believe) have been around since before the fall and are pretty much the best strategists in the galaxy. I would hazzard as to all of them working togheter would far exceed their worth as individual heroes.

2: Avatars. The Eldars have access to kaela mesha Kains avatar and if every craftworld would summon theirs you're looking at a demonic force of all but unimaginable destructive cappabilities. I am certain the DE have have some counter to this but something tells me that some 100 avatars togheter would be.... welll... godlike. Also can someone inform me what the psychological effect on both DE and Eldars would be if they saw/faced/fought alongside a host of avatars? I recall in "path of the warrior" how it's stated that every eldar in the craftworld could feel the avatars presence and wanted to give in to their urges to fight. Are DE immune to this or would they also want to go more barbaric in the avatars presence?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8309116.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8309116.page GMT Re:Eldar vs Dark Eldar http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8309695.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8309695.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar
And while yes, Phoenix Lords are great strategists and amazing in battle, the DE have their own share of plot armoured super villians. Lady Malys is the host of the Crystal Heart of Cegorarch, the Laughting God. All of her plans always work flawlessly, probably due to his patronage. Vect is one of the best minds around, and while he can't stand up against a P.Lord in combat he is more than capable of orchestrating the war and logistics to a similar or better degree.

As for the Avatars, I actually wonder who they would side with? The Incubi are the last true worshipers of Khaine as he intended. The Aspect Temples are corrupted by Asuryan's teachings, Khaine is the God of Murder after all. It would actually make sense for some of the Avatars to which sides. If not, Dark Eldar have their own Daemons to call upon. Khymerae, Mandrakes, Massive Cthulu-esqe tentacle monsters from the forbidden lands beyond hell, that kinda thing. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8310079.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8310079.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar
 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
You're not the only one with a Phoenix Lord you know. Path of the Incubus pretty much confirmed that the Incubi were founded by Arha, the original Phoenix Lord of the Scorpions. Furthermore it's heavily implied that the Character Drazhar is infact that Phoenix Lord.


This would make sence. Unless it's been retconned and IIRC there was a showdown between Karandras and Arha which lasted for 7 days. Both got out of it alive (I bet that diffrent sources tell it diffrently, with one being karandras sparring Arha and one being the other way around) and afterwards walked their seperate ways. No one ever heard from Arha after that. I'd really like their re-match to be a thing.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
And while yes, Phoenix Lords are great strategists and amazing in battle, the DE have their own share of plot armoured super villians. Lady Malys is the host of the Crystal Heart of Cegorarch, the Laughting God. All of her plans always work flawlessly, probably due to his patronage. Vect is one of the best minds around, and while he can't stand up against a P.Lord in combat he is more than capable of orchestrating the war and logistics to a similar or better degree.


The Eldars have a few more named superguys but somehow I think they're not on par with their DE counterparts. Havn't really looked at the last codexes. Also isn't the laughing god confirmed to be the Deciever or has that been retconned and changed in the current fluff?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
As for the Avatars, I actually wonder who they would side with? The Incubi are the last true worshipers of Khaine as he intended. The Aspect Temples are corrupted by Asuryan's teachings, Khaine is the God of Murder after all. It would actually make sense for some of the Avatars to which sides. If not, Dark Eldar have their own Daemons to call upon. Khymerae, Mandrakes, Massive Cthulu-esqe tentacle monsters from the forbidden lands beyond hell, that kinda thing.


Aren't the Avatars bound to the will of the young prince? I really should dig up the old stuff for this one but as I recall you sacrifice an eldar Young Prince (=Autarch/Noble) to the avatar to bind it to the craftworlds wishes. I honestly don't think the concept of the will of the avatars has ever been explored. Does anyone have a source on an DE vs Avatar encounter? Also the opposite may be true. If the Avatars remain loyal to the craftworlds some of the Incubi might switch sides to fight for the incarnations of Kaine, not caring much about anything else in the conflict. It's also possible that the Avatars and the Incubi go on a free for all killing spree and attack all sides, who knows. This would utterly demoralize the eldar who are bound to the avatars but I have no idea what would happen to the DE in this case.

EDIT: don't read this as it's a major spoiler to the book "Path of the warrior"
Spoiler:
We actually have a confirmed Incubus who turns against DE. In "Path of the warrior" there is a striking scorpion that's reaveled to having been an incubus who changes his ways. He's really good at what he does and considered to be the greatest secret of the striking scorpions shrine. Karandras actually goes out of his way to make sure his survival because he considers him to be the embodiment of the eldars struggle with their desires. In any case this proves that DE are not beyond abandoning the DE path. of course the opposite is true as well but there might actually be a few DE that decides they have better chances joining the craftworlds.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8311149.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8311149.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar
Nerak wrote:
Also isn't the laughing god confirmed to be the Deciever or has that been retconned and changed in the current fluff?

I'm almost certain that that was never remotely confirmed and was only a fan theory.
Does anyone have a source on an DE vs Avatar encounter? Also the opposite may be true.

Shadowpoint has an Avatar helping Eldar against Dark Eldar. It's suggested to be his decision (the Eldar didn't even know he was coming). The Avatar promptly killed a fair few Dark Eldar (including an Archon) and saved the day.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8311260.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8311260.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar
I highly suggest you read Path of the Incubus, it's a great book similar to Path of the Warrior that really puts the Aspect Warriors in a new light. The way they tell it, Ahra was the true worshipper of Khaine, slaughtering the weak aspirants to train the strong. He had a falling out with the other Phoenix Lords over his methods, he said they have tainted Khaines teachings with Asuryan. So when Ahra called for help from them when his world was under a Daemonic attack, no help came. He defeated the Daemonic Horde, but his body was corrupted. So he bade his aspirant Scorpions to slay him. Ahra died, but his spirit was absorbed into Scorpions who killed him. It is they who set up the Incubi Shrines. I would guess the piece of spirit that was pure murder and hate became Ahra.

Anyway, on topic. I believe the Blood Sacrifice is to awaken the Avatar, i doubt they could bind it. You're right, it has never been explored, but i would like to see who Khaine sides with, the Aspect Warriors or the Incubi.

Read Path of the Warrior, didn't really enjoy it. The representation of Karandras wasn't great, getting stomped by a Dreadnaught and all. And the numbers were all wrong, Altansar is a major craftworld but the book put the population in the low millions. That just doesn't fit at all.

Highly suggest the Dark Eldar path books, they blow the Eldar Path books out of the water. More interesting Characters (A charming Solitaire named Motley and his Grim Incubi friend Morr steal the show) in an arguably more interesting setting and the last book portrays Vect himself very well. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8311778.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8311778.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar
 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
While it has never been confirmed, it's a solid theory that the Laughting God is a mirror of the Deciever. During the War of the Heavens, the Deciever played both sides, so it makes sense for him to worm his way into Eldar mythology as a trickster entity. Then, after the War in the Heavens ended and the Old ones vanished the Eldar had to explain what happened to the next generation. They did this through Mythology. Which in turn, became worship, which in turn created the Eldar Gods. So the Eldar Gods are the bastardised versions of the major players of the War in the Heavens, who the Eldar mythologised and worshiped, which as we know creates Warp Entities.

I highly suggest you read Path of the Incubus, it's a great book similar to Path of the Warrior that really puts the Aspect Warriors in a new light. The way they tell it, Ahra was the true worshipper of Khaine, slaughtering the weak aspirants to train the strong. He had a falling out with the other Phoenix Lords over his methods, he said they have tainted Khaines teachings with Asuryan. So when Ahra called for help from them when his world was under a Daemonic attack, no help came. He defeated the Daemonic Horde, but his body was corrupted. So he bade his aspirant Scorpions to slay him. Ahra died, but his spirit was absorbed into Scorpions who killed him. It is they who set up the Incubi Shrines. I would guess the piece of spirit that was pure murder and hate became Ahra.

I doubt that a race a highly Psychic as the Eldar would be tricked for so long by a C'tan pretending to be what is essentially a Warp entity. Wouldn't your interpretation lead to a separate Laughing God entity being formed anyway? I also don't see a C'tan being able save souls from Slaanesh.

It's only one interpretation though. They could all be correct; Khaine, like Khorne, may have represented multiple facets of war.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8311911.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8311911.page GMT Eldar vs Dark Eldar
Totally separate entities. Simply the Laughing God was created by the Eldar worshipping a being who is based off the Deciever. Hence the similarities and shared feats. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8311923.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/669196/8311923.page GMT