<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Is the daemon flying circus still viable?"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Is the daemon flying circus still viable? Just wondering if its still viable with the new tau and the increase in ways to deal with fliers.

Heres a rough 1500pt list.
Kairos
Bloodthirster infinte rage, greater rewards etc

11 Horrors
11 Horrors

Daemon prince of tzeentch, wings, armour, gifts, lvl3 etc
Daemon prince of tzeentch, wings, armour, gifts, lvl3 etc

Just need to know if this sorta list is a waste of space now. Thanks
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/670626/8263542.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/670626/8263542.page GMT Is the daemon flying circus still viable?
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/670626/8263556.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/670626/8263556.page GMT Is the daemon flying circus still viable? 1 more thing is this list considered cheesy and not fun to play?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/670626/8263598.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/670626/8263598.page GMT Is the daemon flying circus still viable? BT hating everything in your army and your okay.

If you have seen Belakor, its a good swap for Fatey. He can garaunty invisibility, and an invis BToIR is competition level destructive. Will be viewed as less than fun in friendlies.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/670626/8263659.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/670626/8263659.page GMT Is the daemon flying circus still viable?
 bennyboy6189 wrote:
Thanks for the quick response.
1 more thing is this list considered cheesy and not fun to play?

Yes, it could be.

Daemon FMC-spam is a competitive tournament build. Casual players who don't bring enough AA will not be able to do much against them. In such a case, they could be considered cheesy and unfun to play against.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/670626/8263726.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/670626/8263726.page GMT Re:Is the daemon flying circus still viable? AA unit.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/670626/8263748.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/670626/8263748.page GMT Is the daemon flying circus still viable?
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/670626/8263770.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/670626/8263770.page GMT Is the daemon flying circus still viable?
AncientSkarbrand wrote:
It's almost the only truly competitive daemon build, but can be done a few different ways. Hopefully we aren't so mono build next update.



haha, with a username like that, am I reading some bitterness?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/670626/8263790.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/670626/8263790.page GMT Is the daemon flying circus still viable?
 jy2 wrote:
Yes, it is still viable.


 jy2 wrote:
Daemon FMC-spam is a competitive tournament build. Casual players who don't bring enough AA will not be able to do much against them. In such a case, they could be considered cheesy and unfun to play against.


To be fair, jy2, I think your opinion might be a little biased based on your particular meta--as a Daemon player myself, I'm of the opinion that Flying Circus is only competitive in the BAO/LVO format. Daemon FMC lists are completely unheard of in virtually any other format--they were unheard of in general in 7th until Alan started winning all your tournaments with them

FMC lists have a ton of weaknesses; they aren't particularly great at killing anything, and they have a near-complete inability to exert board control on the ground. These two things make them more or less unplayable in any wider Maelstrom format; the LVO/BAO two-objective, repeating-table Maelstrom however doesn't put a focus on board control the way traditional Maelstrom does. In BAO/LVO Maelstrom, you can "fake" board control with an excess of expendable units, and "expendable units" is something a Daemon FMC list has in spades.

When you can put at least two free, completely disposable units anywhere on the board every turn, you excel at BAO/LVO Maelstrom--but that's about it.

Outside of that particular format, there's really no opportunity for such a list to excel. Daemon FMCs are outclassed in the air by Flyrant lists, and they're outclassed on the ground by virtually anything. When there are more than two objectives to be concerned about (or less opportunity for "soft" Maelstrom objectives, like Kill a Unit/Get In Deployment Zone/etc), they become stretched too thin and can be more or less pushed off the playing field by anything with enough semi-survivable units (anything that won't die to a bit of airborne Flickering Fire--Battle Companies, Necrons, AdMech).

Even Alan doesn't play that list outside of LVO/BAO format; I didn't see any serious attempts at a Daemon FMC list at NOVA, and if there were any, they certainly didn't fare well. Hell, I technically had 3 FMCs in my list, and I didn't even see anybody else with that many (and my list definitely isn't an FMC list). I think there were a few at Adepticon, but if I'm honest, those were mostly just people copying Nick's winning list from the prior year an edition too late.

And as a minor aside, any uptick in Tau presence (like the one we're about to see) is generally bad news for Flying Circus lists; even without splurging for VTs, you throw enough Broadside Missiles into the air and you're bound to hit something, and Coordinated Fire is going to be a whole new kind of bad news for 355-point models with 4 wounds.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/670626/8265365.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/670626/8265365.page GMT Is the daemon flying circus still viable? FMC lists are very strong. I have played it the last couple events and had virtually no trouble aside from a Thunderdome list in the last event.
It is a little weaker in the heavy maelstrom format but not bad in them. It's very unforgiving to mistakes and that's one reason I feel that it isn't played more.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/670626/8268223.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/670626/8268223.page GMT Is the daemon flying circus still viable?
DJ3 wrote:
 jy2 wrote:
Yes, it is still viable.


 jy2 wrote:
Daemon FMC-spam is a competitive tournament build. Casual players who don't bring enough AA will not be able to do much against them. In such a case, they could be considered cheesy and unfun to play against.


To be fair, jy2, I think your opinion might be a little biased based on your particular meta--as a Daemon player myself, I'm of the opinion that Flying Circus is only competitive in the BAO/LVO format. Daemon FMC lists are completely unheard of in virtually any other format--they were unheard of in general in 7th until Alan started winning all your tournaments with them

FMC lists have a ton of weaknesses; they aren't particularly great at killing anything, and they have a near-complete inability to exert board control on the ground. These two things make them more or less unplayable in any wider Maelstrom format; the LVO/BAO two-objective, repeating-table Maelstrom however doesn't put a focus on board control the way traditional Maelstrom does. In BAO/LVO Maelstrom, you can "fake" board control with an excess of expendable units, and "expendable units" is something a Daemon FMC list has in spades.

When you can put at least two free, completely disposable units anywhere on the board every turn, you excel at BAO/LVO Maelstrom--but that's about it.

Outside of that particular format, there's really no opportunity for such a list to excel. Daemon FMCs are outclassed in the air by Flyrant lists, and they're outclassed on the ground by virtually anything. When there are more than two objectives to be concerned about (or less opportunity for "soft" Maelstrom objectives, like Kill a Unit/Get In Deployment Zone/etc), they become stretched too thin and can be more or less pushed off the playing field by anything with enough semi-survivable units (anything that won't die to a bit of airborne Flickering Fire--Battle Companies, Necrons, AdMech).

Even Alan doesn't play that list outside of LVO/BAO format; I didn't see any serious attempts at a Daemon FMC list at NOVA, and if there were any, they certainly didn't fare well. Hell, I technically had 3 FMCs in my list, and I didn't even see anybody else with that many (and my list definitely isn't an FMC list). I think there were a few at Adepticon, but if I'm honest, those were mostly just people copying Nick's winning list from the prior year an edition too late.

And as a minor aside, any uptick in Tau presence (like the one we're about to see) is generally bad news for Flying Circus lists; even without splurging for VTs, you throw enough Broadside Missiles into the air and you're bound to hit something, and Coordinated Fire is going to be a whole new kind of bad news for 355-point models with 4 wounds.

You bring up some good points DJ3. Limited Maelstrom missions such as the ITC allow lists with weak ground control (any flyer-heavy lists) to "hide" some of their weaknesses (which is weak ground control, duh....lol). And FMC Daemons are lacking in the areas that you mention (which is why they are considered by many Daemon players to be more of a finesse army). But really, what competitive event plays almost pure Maelstrom other than the ETC? Usually it's a mix of Eternal War missions and perhaps modifiied Maelstrom elements or other weird mission objective types. Daemon FMC-spam might not be as powerful as it was 1-2 years ago, but IMO it is still competitive in a wide variety of missions today in the hands of a savvy general. BTW, being competitive doesn't necessarily equate to being a tournament-winning GT build.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/670626/8268487.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/670626/8268487.page GMT Is the daemon flying circus still viable? IMHO are very flawed for that very reason, I think you agree with me there too jy2? As soon as you eliminate the edge of having second turn they become extremely hard to win with in the current environment. I still can't understand where Reece is getting all his data about having first turn being stronger in ITC format, almost every competitive minded player I know hates the bottom of turn scoring edge, which is arguably the only real flaw in an otherwise great system.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But yea, to the OP even with the debate about maelstrom a VERY strong FMC list is in fact with Nurgle, since they get a 2+ jink in the open you really don't need to swoop, which makes them a major force when lead by Bel'kor, since they can easily combat super-heavies as well.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/670626/8268744.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/670626/8268744.page GMT Is the daemon flying circus still viable?
 Red Corsair wrote:
I still can't understand where Reece is getting all his data about having first turn being stronger in ITC format, almost every competitive minded player I know hates the bottom of turn scoring edge, which is arguably the only real flaw in an otherwise great system.


I'm personally not a fan of the LVO/BAO format (I've been somewhat outspoken about it on here at times), but there's definitely no mystery as to where that data comes from.

At any major GT (which BAO/LVO certainly are), you're looking at maybe 10-20% of the field who have a serious chance to win the tournament--it's not something a TO would go out and advertise, but it's a well known fact at these sort of events. To have any sort of chance at winning a GT, you have to be playing a top-level list and be a high-level competitive player (which is why you tend to see the same handful of names at the top tables of GTs). The vast majority of players at a GT are lacking one of those two things.

That fact alone means it's nearly impossible to take meaningful stats away from GT results--you're going to get watered down by the not-necessarily-competitive tables where more or less anything goes. You would also basically have to throw out the first two or three rounds, where good players and/or good lists are beating up worse players and/or worse lists, regardless of turn order or mission or any other potential handicap.

Things like turn order and mission format imbalances really only come into play when two equally skilled players are playing with equally powerful lists--and at a 100+ person GT, those two things really only occur in the last couple of rounds (or completely by the luck of the draw, any earlier than that). It's an overwhelmingly tiny portion of the games that occur.

If you wanted meaningful stats, you'd really have to boil things down to "this is what our best players did aganst each other," but at that point you're also going to run into the problem of having such a small sample size that it's still hard to pull any meaningful conclusions from it. And again, no TO is ever going to take the stance of "these are the only games that mattered and we're going to base our balance decisions off them"--that's a good way to piss off the other 80% of your paying players.

But yeah...I play with a pretty heavily competitive crew and it's common knowledge that everyone prefers bottom of turn in that format. I mean, I've heard Brett and Alan both independently say they knew whoever got bottom turn was winning their finals game last year.

 jy2 wrote:
But really, what competitive event plays almost pure Maelstrom other than the ETC? Usually it's a mix of Eternal War missions and perhaps modifiied Maelstrom elements or other weird mission objective types.


I dunno, Maelstrom has really caught on lately. I think NOVA was the only tournament I've attended this year which didn't have a heavy Maelstrom component, but they obviously had the pick-your-own-mission format where one option was always turn-by-turn scoring. Adepticon was notably pure Maelstrom this year; a lot of smaller tournaments use the BAO/LVO Maelstrom too, since it's a compact system that's easy to implement for TOs.

My next tournament is the Renegade Open, and I'm actually really interested to see what they've done--last year they used BAO/LVO Maelstrom (and it was not well received)--their new system looks really interesting. In essence, it's the BAO/LVO Maelstrom, but expanded to 12 items (and six objectives, two of each marked 1-3) but you pick which two you want each turn (and can only use each once), and you cannot score them until the following turn.

The Michigan GT did a similar thing (but with a normal Maelstrom deck); you draw cards this turn, but can't score them until next turn. It eliminates one of my biggest problems with Maelstrom in general--there's no ability to plan or react to your opponent's cards, since they draw them and then immediately score them, and that contributes a ton to the "luck" factor of Maelstrom formats. Giving everyone a turn to react to their opponent's cards is a really smart choice.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/670626/8269494.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/670626/8269494.page GMT