<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Y-Mod Series 1; The Carnifex"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/16.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Y-Mod Series 1; The Carnifex 40k's worst units in the game. These are units that are shunned by almost every player, in almost every version of the game. In Y-Mod, I attempt to "fix" these units in a way that makes them usable to at least a portion of the gaming population, while still not so powerful that tournament lists would use them. Try to assume that the points costs remain the same, or close to the same. I'm also not going to massively change the unit's role, and will try to keep it in the same "space" as before.

On with the show!

The Carnifex

This week's Y-Mod is the beloved Tyranid Carnifex. Described as a "living tank" for about as long as Tyranids have existed, the Carnifex has gone through quite the range models and roles. It was once the meanest thing the Tyranids could muster, quickly regenerating wounds, while spewing armour-melting plasma. It's been a "can opener" for vehicles, with a few very high-strength attacks that did well against armour, but poorly against powerful close-combat vehicles. It's been an anti-infantry shooting machine, armed with twin linked devourers to mince up foot soldiers, while tough enough to survive retaliation. But now it's in a weird place. Tyranid players interested in shooting take Flyrants, and players interested in destroying vehicles take Zoanthropes (or sometimes Hive Guard). It's not even a big fire-soak any longer, as Mawlocs and Trygons have completely stolen its thunder. It's too slow to make it into combat, and if it does it's not terribly effective at harming vehicles either.

No, the years have not been kind to the Carnifex. Its armour save is down from before, and T6 and 4 wounds just ain't what it used to be for surviving attacks. Its got a low weapon skill, ballistic skill, initiative, and attacks - meaning that if it even gets a chance to strike, it's unlikely to do much. This wasn't a problem for vehicles in the past, as a single penetrating hit could be incredibly destructive, now it's just 1 hull point of many gone - and without many attacks, the Carnifex just can't deliver.

The Y-Mod

WS;4 - BS;3 - S;10 - T;7 - W;4 - I;2 - A;2 - Ld;7 - Sv;3+

Unit Type: Monstrous Creature

Weapons:
2 pairs of Scything Talons

May replace either or both pairs of Scything Talons with:
- Close Combat Biomorph
- Ranged Biomorph
- Bone Cannon (Strength 10, AP3, Range: 36", Heavy 1)

May purchase biomorphs, up to one tail biomorph, and up to one bio-artefact.

The unit may purchase one of the following:
- Hardened Carapace (Carnifex's Armour Save becomes 2+.)
- Redundant Organs (Carnifex gains Feel No Pain.)
- Hyper-metabolism (Carnifex gains the Regeneration biomorph. Carnifex rolls once for a chance to regain each wound previously lost instead of once up to its maximum.)

Special Rules:
Living Battering Ram: A charging Carnifex is an unstoppable wall of bone and sinew, capable of toppling even an Imperial Knight. A Carnifex's Hammer of Wrath is resolved at AP1.

Massive Grabber: A non-Super Heavy Vehicle or Monstrous Creature hit by at least 1 of the Carnifex's attacks is considered Grabbed. Neither it or the Carnifex can be moved for any reason until either is destroyed.

The Breakdown:

Lots of changes here. First off, I've kept the Carnifex focused as a big-hitter, with weapons and shooting options that are based on quality and not quantity. First off, it's base close combat skill is now 4 instead of 3. A not-so minor change that helps the Carnifex survive in close combat much better against the plenitude of strong enemies out there that are WS4. Meanwhile, most things it wants to attack are either WS4 already (so it's still hitting them on 4's), or are vehicles (so it's hitting them on 3's same as before), making this change really just there for survivability and not killy. The Strength and Toughness have each been boosted by a point (to 10 and 7 respectively), finally bringing a Tyranid monster out of Lasgun range, but also immensely improving its resistance to anything shy of a Lascannon, the way the God-Emperor intended it.

Notice, I've actually reduced its attacks to 2. That's because with Living Battering Ram and Massive Grabber, the Carnifex is changing roles a bit. Part of that is a concept of making fewer, but more impactful, attacks. This is also seen in the next change; the Bone Cannon. A new Tyranid range weapon that finally gives regular Monstrous Creatures a ranged weapon that can kill a Marine. Of course, it's a single-shot gun and no blast, but S10 is nothing to sneeze at, and there's very few other things in the Tyranid codex that can deal with heavy armour at a significant range. Of course, that being a prime example of a Tyranid Codex weakness, I think it's important to keep it a weakness. In modern 7th edition, single-shot weapons with weaker than AP2 are pretty insignificant versus vehicles, especially when fired from something with BS3, but having the option there I think is important. Theoretically, you could take a squad of 3 Carnifexes, each armed with two of these, and get 6 shots. Add something extra to make those shots just a little more accurate, and now you have something that's expensive, but definitely can kill a vehicle at range.

The biggest changes though are the Carnifex's new defensive capabilities. Toughness 7 makes this still vulnerable to small arms fire, but makes taking it down with Scatter Lasers and other High-Output High-Strength weapons a much more difficult prospect. I've left it at 4 wounds to signify that, compared to Trygons, Mawlocs, and Tervigons, that the Carnifex is "small but compact". The real beauty is in the three "survivability" options. If you're expecting to fight enemies without much AP1 or 2, take Extended Carapace to massively increase the Carnifex's ability to make saves. If they're taking a lot of AP1 or 2, having Feel No Pain can be very useful so that you always have something to shrug off wounds with, and an extra layer against those pesky small-shots, without having to rely on getting the Catalyst psychic power. Finally, the piece de la resistance, Hyper-metabolism makes Regeneration finally worth it - any Carnifex not put down is almost certainly going to be back to full wounds in short order!

But Carnifex's don't have Objective Secured, and I've made it so their attacks are few in number - so why would you even care about keeping them around? This is where Living Battering Ram and Massive Grabber come in. Living Battering Ram makes a Carnifex charge a very scary thing, even for vehicles! D3 hits at S10 AP1 with no chance to Jink or make Ion Shield saves? Yes, the Carnifex is now your de-facto Fortification and Imperial Knight killer. Sure, still not a great method for doing it, but one that needs to be taken seriously. It also gives it the ability to "trample in" a bit versus high-save infantry. Once locked in combat, the Carnifex can make sure that a vehicle can't get away from it with Massive Grabber. It's been worded to also work with Monstrous Creatures that have Hit & Run, though I realize that's unlikely to happen. The primary function of this ability is to stop other vehicles from moving if you actually get into combat, which lets you auto-hit them in the next turn of combat, and prevents them from pivoting to get better shots!

Comments/Suggestions
As always, comments and suggestions are welcome! I realize I didn't fix the "isn't fast enough" problem that plagues the Carnifex, but that's an issue with the game as a whole. There's so many units that suffer from this problem that it seems very apparent to me that it's a problem with the game if a unit is only useful if it can move quickly. Until a Y-Mod unit comes up that is described as being somewhat faster than your normal bear, I likely won't be including too many options for increased speed.

If you want to see me "fix" a unit, go ahead and let me know which unit you think needs a Y-Mod!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671310/8277831.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671310/8277831.page GMT Y-Mod Series 1; The Carnifex BS won't make it worthwhile and two, AP3 just makes vehicles laugh. You did address that, but taking a full brood of Carnifexes with this thing is crazy expensive for not much, when you'd probably be better off podding one with TL Devourers and going for rear armor, or just using the Electroshick grubs that are already readily available.

I know you're saying that anti-armor should remain a Tyranid weakness, but with Tyranid BS being what it is, more shots at lower strength will basically always be be better than 1 shot at high strength. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671310/8277858.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671310/8277858.page GMT Re:Y-Mod Series 1; The Carnifex MC.

Upping the strength to 10 is also...dangerous, I suppose? There's been a proliferation of T5 models, and I really think GW had been cutting back on S10 to open that design space up. (See: Wraithlords, Broadsides). I'm not as uncomfortable with this, however. Carnifexes should be mean 'ol CC monsters, but I don't think they should have S10 AND be packing powerful ranged weapons. Maybe S8 and a bonus for CC biomorphs?

Living Battering Ram gives the thing a pretty good chance to destroy any vehicle on the charge. If it still gets D3 HoW hits, we're talking a ~30% chance to annihilate a Dreadnought or a ~20% chance to destroy a Soul Grinder or Defiler - all of which cost significantly more - without letting them swing back. Carnifexes are 120 points, do they really need S10 AP1 I10 attacks?

Finally, Massive Grabber is a terrible name and a terrible effect. Do you know what happens when a model that can't move is forced to move? It's destroyed. There are so many ways this could happen, Gorkanaut or Carnifex popping into the ether because of scenario rules or a tank shock or any number of silly things. Not to mention asking what happens when it hits a model out of it's melee reach - you assign wounds to to models regardless of distance so long as you were in range of one at your initiative step. It's quite possible to hit a model three or five or even seven inches away, leaving you and them permanently locked, unable to move while still being in melee combat...maybe? Another joy would be tracking groups of carnifexes. Which ones hit which models, rolling them separately despite being the same initiative, tracking who fails to wound and therefore can't consolidate...

Suffice to say, TAKE THIS OUT.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671310/8278155.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671310/8278155.page GMT Re:Y-Mod Series 1; The Carnifex
raverrn wrote:
I don't like it. T6 to T7 is a much, much larger jump than I think you realize, and giving it a 2+ save is also incredibly potent. There's a very good reason high toughness monsters like Eldar Wraiths have a 3+ save, combining a 2+ with a sky high toughness is an exponential improvement in survivability. Is that really what you want for what's supposed to be fairly cheap and numerous for a MC.


Note; Y-Mod's don't list points costs. There would be a points cost for going up to the 2+ save. I'm honestly not too concerned about a T7 2+ save monster running around when the game has T5 3+ inv/4+ FnP units, T5 2+ rerollable jink, and T8 3+ FnP 6W Supers, 4+ or 3+ Ion Shields, and Grav running around. Nearly every other super-durable unit in the game is also super-killy, and this isn't, which is why I'm fine with it. Also, it only moves 6" a turn... not very threatening.

Upping the strength to 10 is also...dangerous, I suppose? There's been a proliferation of T5 models, and I really think GW had been cutting back on S10 to open that design space up. (See: Wraithlords, Broadsides). I'm not as uncomfortable with this, however. Carnifexes should be mean 'ol CC monsters, but I don't think they should have S10 AND be packing powerful ranged weapons. Maybe S8 and a bonus for CC biomorphs?


Given that I've reduced the number of attacks, I'm not too concerned about this. It's only mean against things that are "super-durable, but super-expensive". Against everything else, they might not able to easily hurt it, but losing 1 or 2 guys in close combat isn't very much. This guy is easy to bog down!

Living Battering Ram gives the thing a pretty good chance to destroy any vehicle on the charge. If it still gets D3 HoW hits, we're talking a ~30% chance to annihilate a Dreadnought or a ~20% chance to destroy a Soul Grinder or Defiler - all of which cost significantly more - without letting them swing back. Carnifexes are 120 points, do they really need S10 AP1 I10 attacks?


1.5 hits on average, resolved against front armour 12 of a dreadnaught is about a 50% chance of kill a Dreadnaught on the charge. Of course, that's assuming it doesn't have a save, and that the Carnifex actually got a charge off. If you charge the Carnifex, things are likely to go much better!

Finally, Massive Grabber is a terrible name and a terrible effect. Do you know what happens when a model that can't move is forced to move? It's destroyed. There are so many ways this could happen, Gorkanaut or Carnifex popping into the ether because of scenario rules or a tank shock or any number of silly things. Not to mention asking what happens when it hits a model out of it's melee reach - you assign wounds to to models regardless of distance so long as you were in range of one at your initiative step. It's quite possible to hit a model three or five or even seven inches away, leaving you and them permanently locked, unable to move while still being in melee combat...maybe? Another joy would be tracking groups of carnifexes. Which ones hit which models, rolling them separately despite being the same initiative, tracking who fails to wound and therefore can't consolidate...

Suffice to say, TAKE THIS OUT.


Yeah, it is a terrible name - not my best talent, but not a huge deal. But I don't think it's a terrible effect. Yes, there are lots of things in the game that can force movement - but not so much for vehicles (which is where this is most useful), and the Tyranids have no Tanks to worry about tank-shocking with. Even in the case where players ally in Come The Apocalypse allies or go Unbound, to get any effect from this you have to charge in, hit with one of your attacks, not die that turn, and not die to the counter-charge. I'm pretty happy with the ability, even if I'm not happy with the name.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 KharnsRightHand wrote:
Regarding the Bone Cannon, it sounds like basically a 1-shot Rupture Cannon as goes on the Tyrannofex. It suffers the same downfalls as the Rupture Cannon, namely that for one, its low BS won't make it worthwhile and two, AP3 just makes vehicles laugh. You did address that, but taking a full brood of Carnifexes with this thing is crazy expensive for not much, when you'd probably be better off podding one with TL Devourers and going for rear armor, or just using the Electroshick grubs that are already readily available.

I know you're saying that anti-armor should remain a Tyranid weakness, but with Tyranid BS being what it is, more shots at lower strength will basically always be be better than 1 shot at high strength.


Yup, not a good option, but an option aside from eGrubs. At the same time, man, everything else in the book sure does make Carnifexes obsolete!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671310/8278261.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671310/8278261.page GMT Re:Y-Mod Series 1; The Carnifex
 Yarium wrote:

Yeah, it is a terrible name - not my best talent, but not a huge deal. But I don't think it's a terrible effect. Yes, there are lots of things in the game that can force movement - but not so much for vehicles (which is where this is most useful), and the Tyranids have no Tanks to worry about tank-shocking with. Even in the case where players ally in Come The Apocalypse allies or go Unbound, to get any effect from this you have to charge in, hit with one of your attacks, not die that turn, and not die to the counter-charge. I'm pretty happy with the ability, even if I'm not happy with the name.

Did you miss the part where this twists the game to the point of breaking? As written you can get locked into a combat that nobody can fight in, AND you have to track which model is hit by which attack from which Carnifex...

Hell, that's not even in the game. There's no way to tell which model hit which enemy model if they're attacking at the same initiative step. It flat out doesn't work.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671310/8278785.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671310/8278785.page GMT Re:Y-Mod Series 1; The Carnifex
raverrn wrote:
Did you miss the part where this twists the game to the point of breaking? As written you can get locked into a combat that nobody can fight in, AND you have to track which model is hit by which attack from which Carnifex...

Hell, that's not even in the game. There's no way to tell which model hit which enemy model if they're attacking at the same initiative step. It flat out doesn't work.


Good catch! But maybe not for the reasons you initially thought. The game does have a wait of tracking this - it's the wound allocation process. However, you're right in that if a Carnifex attacked a squad of 3 Leman Russes, got 3 hits, and two of them were "explode" results while the third was a "stunned" result, then the Carnifex would likely be stuck out combat distance from the third Leman Russ. This would cause them to no longer be locked in combat, but still unable to move due to the way this rule is currently written - which isn't game "broken" but definitely is game "what the hell?". I don't consider this a problem with the design, but with the grammar of the rules, and not something to get flummoxed about, since as a modification, it's totally non-binding in the rules lingo. What wording would you suggest that would bring the concept into line with correct grammar usage?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671310/8278812.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671310/8278812.page GMT Y-Mod Series 1; The Carnifex http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671310/8278932.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671310/8278932.page GMT Re:Y-Mod Series 1; The Carnifex
 Yarium wrote:
raverrn wrote:
Did you miss the part where this twists the game to the point of breaking? As written you can get locked into a combat that nobody can fight in, AND you have to track which model is hit by which attack from which Carnifex...

Hell, that's not even in the game. There's no way to tell which model hit which enemy model if they're attacking at the same initiative step. It flat out doesn't work.


Good catch! But maybe not for the reasons you initially thought. The game does have a wait of tracking this - it's the wound allocation process. However, you're right in that if a Carnifex attacked a squad of 3 Leman Russes, got 3 hits, and two of them were "explode" results while the third was a "stunned" result, then the Carnifex would likely be stuck out combat distance from the third Leman Russ. This would cause them to no longer be locked in combat, but still unable to move due to the way this rule is currently written - which isn't game "broken" but definitely is game "what the hell?". I don't consider this a problem with the design, but with the grammar of the rules, and not something to get flummoxed about, since as a modification, it's totally non-binding in the rules lingo. What wording would you suggest that would bring the concept into line with correct grammar usage?


Even that isn't right. Let's say you're engaged with two SM Centurions. You hit twice, wound once. One dies, as you're double toughness.

Was the other one hit or not?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671310/8279055.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671310/8279055.page GMT Y-Mod Series 1; The Carnifex http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671310/8279200.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671310/8279200.page GMT Y-Mod Series 1; The Carnifex http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671310/8279214.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671310/8279214.page GMT