<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Formations? "]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Formations? 40k . so I went out and got newest sm codex and wow what's up with formations. I played 2yrs in 5 ed 2yrs in 6ed.
took a brake as was geting burnt out on buying rules ever 2yrs. just when I learn them they Chang's so I am a little behind the 8 ball with stuff.
I still use foc to build my army's being use same list from 6ed till now built with foc in mind.
I been trying to find out how formations work for months now. With no luck I been watching battle reports with formations ever where fill I missing out.

So can some one explain to me like the idiot I am on how they work because I don't get it at all.

Like I seen the neuron one ever talks about I like wow how does that even work with all kinds of cool things for free and more troops then one aloud
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8282196.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8282196.page GMT formtions?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
For example: (not a real formation)

Nurgle's chill dudes:

2-4 units of plague marines
1 daemon prince of nurgle
1 chaos lord or sorcerer of nurgle
1-3 units of nurgle spawn
1-3 obliterators of nurgle

Command benefits: any model in nurgle's chill dudes formation has the feel no pain 4+ ability and also gains shrouded.

So as long as you take the required units, they can act as their own detachment and get feel no pain 4+ and shrouded for free, because you restricted your army list to these particular models. You cannot add models that aren't in the list to a formation, but independent characters can deploy with units in the formation even if they are not part of it themselves.

For the rest of your list, you can take a normal combined arms detachment or another formation instead. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8282234.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8282234.page GMT Re:formtions?
So you're currently using a "foc" (Force Organization Chart) - in 7th this is refered to as a "Combined Arms Detachment" (CAD) - 1 HQ, 2 Troops + optional stuff. A CAD is a list of Battlefield Roles (Elites, Fast Attack etc.) with minimums and maximums.

A formation comes with either a set of specific units (instead of Battlefield Roles), or a selection of units that you can mix-and-match (an Eldar Aspect Host, for example, can me made of three aspect units in almost any combination), and usually provides a bonus of some sort. Units in Formations do not take up 'slots' in your force organization charts, and are entirely separate detachments.

You're not forced to take a CAD, you can make an army entirely out of Formations if you wanted to. You can also make an army that contains a CAD and has some Formations too.

Units/Models can only belong to one Detachment or Formation (Formations are a type of Detachment), with one important exception: The "Decurion-style" Formations (or "Super Formation" or "Formation Flow Charts" etc.) are a Formation that, instead of a list of units that you can take choices from, you pick other Formations (from a list) or other choices that are almost formations but without any additional specific rules. Formations chosen as part of a Decurion-style get their own bonuses plus the Decurion bonuses!

You say you've got the SM codex, so I'll take some examples from there:
To make up a Gladius Strike Force (the "Decurion" equivalent), you must take at least one Demi-Company (the "Core" choice), and at least one choice from the Auxiliary list (a Suppression Force or 10th Company Task Force for example). You can then add any number of Auxiliary choices, one more Core (another Demi) and up to 3 "Command" choices. The entire Gladius must take the same Chapter Tactic.

Hope this helps?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8282238.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8282238.page GMT formtions? foc is not the standsdsard on how to build armies. So what's the standard way to build now. Like how many formations can I use and stuff like that






]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8282490.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8282490.page GMT formtions? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8282512.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8282512.page GMT Re:formtions?
1) Unbound - Take any combination of models from your collection, total up their points, put them on the board. You could have an army consisting of every Space Marine special character from every Chapter and nothing else (no troops, etc.). Generally not allowed at tournaments, and local groups can frown on it. You can take Formations in an Unbound army (and they retain their bonuses), but cannot use a CAD or other FOC-based detachment.

2) Battle-Forged - Every unit and model belongs to a "Detachment". A detachment is a collection of units that either follows a Force Organization Chart (like the CAD mentioned above, but some codexes have unique FOCs that they can use), or a Formation with it's own specific rules as to what can be taken in it. You may have any number of Detachments, in (almost) any combination, and still be considered Battle-Forged, although some tournaments restrict army lists to two or three Detachments.

Three examples of legal Battle-Forged armies could be:
- A Combined Arms Detachment of Ultramarines (a Captain and two units of Scouts), with an Allied Detachment of Blood Angels (a Chaplain and a Tactical squad), and an Iron Hands Armoured Task Force (Techmarine, 3 units of Whirlwinds).

- A Gladius Strike Force of Ultramarines (Demi-Company + Suppression Force), with an Allied Detachment of Imperial Guard (aka Astra Militarium. A Company Command Squad and two units of Veterans), and an allied Inquisitorial Detachment (a single Ordos Xenos Inquisitor).

- A CAD of Chaos Space Marines, an Allied Detachment of Ultramarines, an Eldar "Aspect Host" Formation, an Assassin Detachment, an Imperial Knight Detachment, and a Harlequin "Cast of Players" Formation.

Not all codexes have a Gladius-equivalent, so plenty of people still use FOC-based armies, many use the super-formations, some mix-and-match FOC's and Formations. There really is tons of flexibility.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8282541.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8282541.page GMT formtions? CAD is a detachment: the benefit is Troops get Objective Secured, and you can reroll your warlord trait.

Some detachments give slots (like Elites Troops Heavy etc) and some, called Formations, specify units you must take. They usually give better or more specific boosts to those units.

For instance , Dark Artisan is a Dark Eldar formation with a Haemonculus and two pain engines. The benefit is that they deploy as a single 3 model unit. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8282647.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8282647.page GMT formtions?
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8282683.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8282683.page GMT formtions? CAD. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8282788.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8282788.page GMT formtions?
the_scotsman wrote:
Well, as always in 40 k if you spam the strongest stuff you can just win. But it is worth noting that the strongest thing currently actually is an optimized CAD.


Not sure how you figure that one... Gladius does better at holding Objectives, Decurion brings so much more durability and firepower, Eldar Windrider Warhost is just death and has to be FAQed locally to /reduce/ the strength available to it and so on and so forth. Before the Eldar and Space Marine books, yes, CAD was still the main contender, but right now the strong armies get stronger in their little fancy stuff than in a CAD. I think Dark Angels are the biggest exception to that since their Formations require too many things and too many hoops to jump through to take Deathwing and Ravenwing Detachments/Formations.

Balance is pretty much shot if you expect it across the whole game, as I just went into a little bit. It really is up to the player to get with their opponent and build something comparable. Real world example: I haven't been screwed over by my opponent unexpectedly bringing CHEESE yet even though the options are available. In a competitive environment, things like Skyhammer (a Space Marine Alpha Strike Formation) and Windrider Host (Scatter Laser Jetbikes all over the place with Wraithknights) are very difficult to beat but bringing a somewhat competitive Tyranid list and ITC FAQs meant I won against Skyhammer and wasn't tabled by the Eldar. There are people I refuse to play against though, and some events even locally that I just don't want to attend because of the cheese I know will be there. I am simply not a good enough player to handle that with what I have. But bringing a good amount of models with you instead of a set list means you can make those adjustments on the fly. I can still get a good game in with my Chaos Marines, who are the bottom of the barrel and the best example of bad list building I can do, just because I let my opponent know that the list is crap and we play a friendly game.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8282809.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8282809.page GMT formtions?
 SharkoutofWata wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Well, as always in 40 k if you spam the strongest stuff you can just win. But it is worth noting that the strongest thing currently actually is an optimized CAD.


Not sure how you figure that one... Gladius does better at holding Objectives, Decurion brings so much more durability and firepower, Eldar Windrider Warhost is just death and has to be FAQed locally to /reduce/ the strength available to it and so on and so forth. Before the Eldar and Space Marine books, yes, CAD was still the main contender, but right now the strong armies get stronger in their little fancy stuff than in a CAD. I think Dark Angels are the biggest exception to that since their Formations require too many things and too many hoops to jump through to take Deathwing and Ravenwing Detachments/Formations.

Balance is pretty much shot if you expect it across the whole game, as I just went into a little bit. It really is up to the player to get with their opponent and build something comparable. Real world example: I haven't been screwed over by my opponent unexpectedly bringing CHEESE yet even though the options are available. In a competitive environment, things like Skyhammer (a Space Marine Alpha Strike Formation) and Windrider Host (Scatter Laser Jetbikes all over the place with Wraithknights) are very difficult to beat but bringing a somewhat competitive Tyranid list and ITC FAQs meant I won against Skyhammer and wasn't tabled by the Eldar. There are people I refuse to play against though, and some events even locally that I just don't want to attend because of the cheese I know will be there. I am simply not a good enough player to handle that with what I have. But bringing a good amount of models with you instead of a set list means you can make those adjustments on the fly. I can still get a good game in with my Chaos Marines, who are the bottom of the barrel and the best example of bad list building I can do, just because I let my opponent know that the list is crap and we play a friendly game.


Farseer Jetbike HQ.

Windriders with scatterlasers.

Wraithknight LOW.

Second Farseer HQ.

More windriders.

Second Wraithknight.

Repeat.

That is the current army to beat if you're going with an un modified ruleset. Windrider host does nothing but take away Obsec from the best objective securing units in the entire game and force you to waste points on a Vyper. It doesn't give any benefit to the optimal weapon configuration of Windriders (the scatter lasers). The only reason to take it is if your tournament has a detachment limit but not a LOW or Strength D nerf.

ITC has both, and the strength D nerf is basically aimed right at Wraithknights. Only reason Scatbike/wraithknight lists don't win as much. In the "wild Wild West" version of 40k (you know, the rules in the book) the above CAD repeated to the points limit with the Farseers rolling for Invisibility is the army to beat.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8282822.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8282822.page GMT formtions?
newguy1984 wrote:
So it is really do what ever I like. So how does that effect balance



I wouldn't say it's "do whatever you like" (though it does come close), as you still need to fulfill the requirements of the CAD or formation, and formations are basically detachments with very strict choices on what you can and can take+some buffs.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8282888.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8282888.page GMT formtions? foc. Guess I really need structure on how I build my army. Not do what ever is best spam
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8283582.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8283582.page GMT formtions?
With each army having it’s own formations, you can’t make broad spectrum calls about what’s “normal”

You can still build an army using the old force org chart (now referred to as the CAD) and still put a viable army down on the table to play.

If you want to build with the new formations, there is free perks and power to be had there. But often restrictions on what you can take.

Building an army these days:
Pick a point value.
Pick a structure. This could be a CAD, or a Formation (like the battle demi-company)
--Take all the required selections (Like the HQ +2 troops in the CAD)
--(Optional) Take other stuff that fits into that structure (Like the second HQ, 3xFA/HS/Elite slots in the CAD)
Got points left? Take another formation/detachment and start over. Doesn’t even have to be the same army (but check the ally rules, there are problems with straying too far)
Once you run out of points, pick someone to be your warlord, and get ready to fight.

For a new SM player, I’d strongly recommend building towards a Gladius formation with the demi company. Older players wth legacy armies will still want to use a CAD. For example, I don’t own enough tanks to field the armored spearhead, so if I want my old predator to hit the table, I need to use a CAD. There are advantages to the old system. If I want some AA in my list with formations, I need to either field the 3 flyer stormwing or the one with the AA tanks. That’s overkill in most moderate point games IMHO, but with a CAD I can just field a single stormtalon in a FA slot and call it a day.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8283644.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8283644.page GMT Re:formtions?
As far as "standard" ways to build you army -- no, there isn't a standard. Some people build with a CAD (the old FoC), but you can also just bring one or more formations. In a casual game you will typically talk with your opponent and agree on what kinds of things to bring (e.g., only 2 detachments, yes/no Super Heavies, yes/no Lords of War, yes/no Fliers, allies, etc.). In a tournament setting you bring what is allowed by the tournament. Some tourneys only allow 2 sources, or limit the number of detachments, or impose other limits.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8283650.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8283650.page GMT formtions? foc way of building stuff. and have started in 5 ed that was the standard way to go. I mean I basically been using same list sense I started playing only thing I have add was flyers I was told keep using same list till you master it so I been doing that. But it feels so blah now
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8283693.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8283693.page GMT Formations? CAD (or CAD equivalent, some armies now have unique versions of the CAD in their books with different slots) in all my army lists. I think the flexibility of it outweighs the benefits I get from using big crazy formations.

The only formations I tend to use are small ones that let me play a unit in a different way. For instance, I have one that let's me take three independent characters from my codex, and it gives them infiltrate and Stealth/Shrouded, but they're no longer independent characters (they have to stay by themselves). I use it because I think it's cool, and makes more sense in my army than having all these guys running around clumped in squads.

Formations aren't mandatory. But they're often fun. Think of them as an option, an add on, rather than some new way you have to build a list. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8283712.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8283712.page GMT Formations? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8283845.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8283845.page GMT Formations? GW rules there are stupid OP ones and ones that are super bad so nobody uses them. 99.9999% of players don't use "unbound" or whatever that crap is, but you will often see formations as they can be quite fun. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8283854.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8283854.page GMT Formations? tac squads one more assault squad then I couldn't use my stern squad our flyers right
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284444.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284444.page GMT Formations?
I've also read posts of others on this site using unbound, so it's not just us.

Not to be pedantic or anything, but if he wants to build his army in an unbound way, he should know that it's a brb supported, valid way to play the game. It may be frowned on by some, however it's still valid. You just don't get any command benefits.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284473.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284473.page GMT Formations?
The basic Demi company is strong which paired with the cad let's you bring some stuff that can actually kill stuff.

The big super formations, while their benefits are cool, often limit you from taking the really Killy stuff. The Gladius is by no means something you "have to" take, especially when it would mean you wouldn't get to use most of the cool models in your collection.

Despite what GW may want you to believe, shelving your favorite models so you can buy 10 identical vehicle kits and field them for free isn't mandatory.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be clear, I'm saying that with what you already have you've got a Demi company already. I'm not saying you should go out and get a Gladius ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284482.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284482.page GMT Re:Formations? SM formations.

A Battle Demi-Company is the Core formation. An HQ, 3x Tactical Squad, 1x "Assault" unit, 1x "Devastator" unit. Optional Command Squad and Dreadnought Squad. You get ObSec and one use of the Tactical Doctrine.

A Gladius takes a BDC, and adds an Auxiliarly formation. If you do this, you gain one use of each Doctrine [thus, you have 2 uses of the Tactical, one Assault and one Dev].

A "Battle Company" is a Gladius, that includes 2 core formations, plus an Aux. In addition to the above benefits, you get free transports for everyone, though you pay for upgrades. Hypothetically, you get a ton of free HB Razorbacks. This formation, using all 5-man squads, starts around 1200 points, by the time you also buy the Aux formation. And now you've got a bunch of bolter wielding dudes, running around in Heavy Bolter Razorbacks. Hypothetically you get about 10 free Razorbacks. If you upgrade each one with a better-than-Heavy Bolter gun, you're already up to 1400 points. If, for the giggles, you spend 15 points on upgrades for each unit, you're looking at 1550 points. Want HQ that can do something? Let's go to 1750. So you have 10 x 5-man mediocre units, in Razorbacks with decent guns, with a couple of HQ that don't really do much for you, supported by a Techmarine with 3 Whirlwinds. No unit is "optimized" by any means. Just not rocking 50 bolters.


I find each of these builds to be PAINFULLY limiting in terms of what you can actually play with. I'm no fan of Tactical Squads, and now I've got to spend half my points on them? feth off. I find I can build much stronger lists at 1500 to 1850 points, when playing with CAD. [The old standard way to build.]

If you think about it, the reason to take a Gladius is to gain access to abilities that boost your accuracy. Ultramarine, Salamander, and Imperial Fist tactics already do that. [You can't use more than one doctrine per turn, so UM's just wind up with more doctrines than they reasonably need.] So the "benefit" is usually outweighed by the penalty of sticking to the Gladius.

White Scars want to take bikes, and you only get one "bike slot" in the Gladius, unless you take Command Squad Bikers. Again, White Scar CT are much more useful taking a CAD, so that you can take all those bikes. Ravenguard Tactics, in the Codex, are weak, and their ideal build doesn't mesh with a Gladius. Templars are sooooo gakky that nothing fixes them.

Iron Hands have a straight defensive bonus, so using the Gladius has straight offensive benefits for them. They're the only Chapter that I would consider using a Gladius with. They get the most out of the Benefits, without being insanely hobbled by the build structure.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284512.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284512.page GMT Formations? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284700.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284700.page GMT Re:Formations? CAD] and a single use of the Tactical Doctrine.

To gain the additional 3 uses of Doctrines, you need to take an Auxiliary, which makes it a Gladius.

A Gladius + another BDC gives you free Transports.

So if you're taking a BDC, and then using a CAD to fill the rest of your points, you would need to effectively purchase 2 HQ, 5 Troops, one FA, one HS as your MINIMUM choices. Which would be crappy, since the Tactical Doctrine only benefits the models from the BDC. So don't do that, it's a bad idea. Units purchased from a BDC do not "count towards" the requirements of a CAD.

Instead, build a CAD with the parts of a BDC, if you're so inclined, and then use the rest of the FOC to buy the fun stuff you want to play with. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284708.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284708.page GMT Formations?
newguy1984 wrote:
Ok so how does a demi company work the way I understand it is I need to take a auxiliary unit to use a demi company and I don't want to do thar


Taking an auxiliary is required for it to be a Gladius Strike Force. You can take a Demi-Company on all its own, but you'll only get the Demi-Company buffs without anything the Gladius gives you. So you'll have army-wide Objective Secured, and one use of Tactical Doctrine.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284711.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284711.page GMT Re:Formations?
 greatbigtree wrote:
Well, like I said in the post above, you can take a Battle Demi-Company by itself. The first formation I outlined, without an Auxiliary. However, the benefit of doing that is that you gain ObSec [You can do that with CAD] and a single use of the Tactical Doctrine.

To gain the additional 3 uses of Doctrines, you need to take an Auxiliary, which makes it a Gladius.

A Gladius + another BDC gives you free Transports.

So if you're taking a BDC, and then using a CAD to fill the rest of your points, you would need to effectively purchase 2 HQ, 5 Troops, one FA, one HS as your MINIMUM choices. Which would be crappy, since the Tactical Doctrine only benefits the models from the BDC. So don't do that, it's a bad idea. Units purchased from a BDC do not "count towards" the requirements of a CAD.

Instead, build a CAD with the parts of a BDC, if you're so inclined, and then use the rest of the FOC to buy the fun stuff you want to play with.


I only recommended that because when he listed what he already had, it was 5 tactical squads a captain a chaplain assault marines Devastators and a podding dread, then other stuff. Basically he's got a Demi plus a cad. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284835.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284835.page GMT Re:Formations? CAD.

[Unfortunately, written word doesn't translate the playful manner in which that statement was intended. ]

So, probably don't take 5 Tactical Squads. Use some of those as a Command Squad, and give them lots of Special Weapons. Or... anything but Tacticals, really. Plus, as the collection expands, it's much easier to include those new pieces as part of a CAD. Taking a BDC is pointlessly handcuffing your build options.

[Again, not intended to sound gruff. More friendly ball-busting than anything.]

That's my take on building SM lists, anyhow. What Chapter Tactics were you considering? I've expressed that Iron Hands are probably the "best" option to pursue a Gladius, in my mind. So if you're going any other direction but that, CAD is probably the way to go.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284864.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284864.page GMT Formations? CAD is great for list building just because of the freedom you have. Again, depends on the CT of the army as greatbigtree said.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284872.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284872.page GMT Re:Formations? Gladius lets you reuse your Doctrines. A BDC just gives you an extra Tactical. That's what I mean, everyone mixes the terms up. Ignorance. Srsly. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284883.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284883.page GMT Formations? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284886.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284886.page GMT Re:Formations? CAD. For instance, my preferred list are the Storm Wing (2 Stormtalons+Stormraven) and Skyhammer (2 devastators in drop pods+2 assault squads with jump packs) formations, with a CAD that gives me what I consider everything else I need--which in my case is Vulkan He'Stan, Honor Guard, an Ironclad, podded Sternguard, and two podded tacticals.

In short, pick some units or unit type you like. If there's a formation or formations that support it, and there probably will be, grab them, and use a CAD to fill in any strategic gaps you might have.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284888.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284888.page GMT Re:Formations? everyone gets it wrong.

The taking of a formation or two to supplement a CAD is pretty good too. Assuming you want to take 3 of something. Or Skyhammer.

PS: If you're running Sternguard as 5-man teams, you should look at Command Squads, instead. You can buy 5 Duders with Meltaguns, instead of 5 Duders with Combi-what-have-you's for 20 points less. Unless you're hardcore about the Special Ammo. Those Command Squads can use those extra 20 points to buy a bunch of Meltabombs for everyone... just in case.

Other alternatives are that you can buy 5x Plasmaguns instead of 5x Combi-Plasma for 5 points more. And get to shoot those Plasmaguns for Multiple turns. Assuming you're taking 5-man squads.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284900.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284900.page GMT Re:Formations?
 greatbigtree wrote:
It's all good, everyone gets it wrong.

The taking of a formation or two to supplement a CAD is pretty good too. Assuming you want to take 3 of something. Or Skyhammer.

PS: If you're running Sternguard as 5-man teams, you should look at Command Squads, instead. You can buy 5 Duders with Meltaguns, instead of 5 Duders with Combi-what-have-you's for 20 points less. Unless you're hardcore about the Special Ammo. Those Command Squads can use those extra 20 points to buy a bunch of Meltabombs for everyone... just in case.

Other alternatives are that you can buy 5x Plasmaguns instead of 5x Combi-Plasma for 5 points more. And get to shoot those Plasmaguns for Multiple turns. Assuming you're taking 5-man squads.



I run my Sternguard in squads of 10, with combi-meltas for that master-crafted special-issue ammunition goodness. Occasionally a pair of heavy flamers thrown in as well.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284906.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284906.page GMT Re:Formations? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284922.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284922.page GMT Formations? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284947.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284947.page GMT Formations?
newguy1984 wrote:
I use IF chapter tactics but I having a hard build a army based on them of holding line defender style army


If you're willing to get into FW stuff, the Siege Assault Vanguard is a pretty fluffy way to field that sort of army. Not an IF player so I'm afraid I can't get you much more than that from the top of my head.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284952.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284952.page GMT Formations?
newguy1984 wrote:
I use IF chapter tactics but I having a hard build a army based on them of holding line defender style army


There's the sentinels of terra supplement as an option if you want to go further down the IF route, or if you really want the feel of garrisoning a world, there's always fortifications you can use for your marines to bunker down in. Not necessarily the most optimal choice if you're playing maelstrom but if you're just playing normal games as I'm presuming you are, its a fluffy way of showing your marines holding the line.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284979.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284979.page GMT Re:Formations? Devs, instead, and just bunch up your Heavy Weapons.

In that regard, the Gladius limits your Dev options, and your Bolters are all re-rolling 1's, so the benefit of the Doctrines is somewhat reduced, since you're already rerolling some attacks.

Devs to sit back. Sternguard to "Drop" in. Scouts with Boltguns and Camo Cloaks. Give them a ride in a Land Speeder Storm, to sneak objectives. All from a CAD. Lots of slots, for the units you'd want to use the most.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284989.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8284989.page GMT Formations? foc style army and be ok. I just have to figure out how to make my army good again because I lose a lot and can't seem to figure why. I feel I doing something very wrong
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8286375.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8286375.page GMT Formations? CAD as normal. Nothing is making you take the Gladius, it's just that the various formations offer lots of great benefits for your forces.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8286379.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8286379.page GMT Formations?
newguy1984 wrote:
Ok so I get getit formations are just more ways to play ok but I can still stick to my foc style army and be ok. I just have to figure out how to make my army good again because I lose a lot and can't seem to figure why. I feel I doing something very wrong


Well, post a list, and we can tear it apart for you. Then rebuild it. Faster. Stronger. Centurioner than it was before. For what it's worth, I don't like Cents, but I'll throw it out there as a pretty quick way to crank up the Grav quotient.

Even a list of what you've got, and how many units you'd be willing to purchase in the near future to bring it up. Something like,

"I've got a gadjillion dudes, 2 rhinos, a drop pod, and a couple Vindicators. I'd be willing to buy 3 new boxes, to make something workable."]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8286846.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8286846.page GMT Formations? Caption jamp pack light claw and shield internal
Chapiln jamp pack power maul

3 tac squads 10 men 2rhinos flamers and in on 2 squads.
3 squad has melts gun combo melts on sarge and multi Mult and in pod

Iron clad dread 2flamers and 2 fist in pod
Deard with misssils and las cannon
5Stern guard combie melts pod

2 storm tallon skyhammer missiles
1O man assault squad with one flamer sarg got power sword


2 5 man dev squads one all missiles out he las cannon



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also have 5 man scout sniper squad 5 bolt gun snipers
10tac termys with assault cannon and missile pod
Dread with assault cannon and heavy flamer
And some mix of heavy wraps gun I will to spend up to a mother 300 on my army just want it to be more viable. As I don't seem to do very good with it
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8288343.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8288343.page GMT Re:Formations? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8290632.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8290632.page GMT Formations? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8290647.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8290647.page GMT Re:Formations?
Do you have codices that you face regularly? What are your three most common opponents, and what do they typically use? Eldar with lots of Scatter Bikes and Wraith-support? Necrons with a million dudes, gaussing you as they refuse to die? Tau Empire that relies entirely upon Kroot Carnivore squads? Imperial Guard with lots of tanks?

Lastly, would you be willing to try a few games at 1500 points, to test the competitiveness of a list or two? There's really nothing like 1500 points to really make a list lean and mean.

Let me know, I'll craft something up tomorrow.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8290754.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8290754.page GMT Formations? Our his orks witch are normal 2 truck squads 1big biker squad with warboos 2squads of looted and lots of boys and his killer can and grot squad

Ya you can make up list at 1500. But I always thought 2000 the standard army size



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also my chapter is my own color I just want to have to buy a army all over again because what I got sucks like what happen with my brothers tau went he basically had to 're buy a whole army because what he had built was based on what he thought was cool boy was he wrong ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8290870.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8290870.page GMT Formations? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8291509.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8291509.page GMT Formations?
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8292331.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8292331.page GMT Re:Formations?
Soo... I'm gonna make you a 1500 point list that you can build up from, and I'll stick to the IF faction, though I'll be using Pedro Cantor [still IF tactics] for the Warlord. I'll be back in a little bit. That said, I'd encourage you and your bro to play a few 1000 point games. You can crank them out really quickly, and maybe get two games in a night. More games speeds your learning curve, because you see how the game "ends" more often. You can see what wins you the game, what kills stuff good, and then what's not working at either.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8293017.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8293017.page GMT Formations? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8293025.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8293025.page GMT Formations? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8293042.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8293042.page GMT Re:Formations?
The plan is to set the TFC, Devs, and Dread in a Ruin so that by boosting the Ruin with the Techmarine gunner, you get a 3+ cover save. This is the "Castle" that anchors your force. The TFC is Artillery, allowing you to attack units you can't see. This pressures your opponent to advance, bringing them into LOS. No sense hiding and being bombed, you might as well move into LOS so you can shoot back. That sort of thing. The Dev Squads can fire both LC from the Rhinos. Those Rhinos are now super-tough, because they have an awesome cover save. This is less significant when facing Tau, but them's the breaks. It's normally a solid plan. The Dreadnought is a solid Assault Deterrent, and is again, nice and tough with a solid cover save. The Dread's pod serves two purposes, neither of which is deploying the Dread. 1st, you can drop both Sternguard on turn 1. 2nd, you can drop the empty pod onto an uncontested objective, and steal it. Hopefully, it shows up later in the game.

With only 2 big guns in your Dev Squads, one can always benefit from the Signum, while the other has a one-use Cherub to improve accuracy. You should, often, get at least 5 hits from each squad, over 3 turns. That's pretty good. 10 / 12 hits, instead of a more typical 8/12 without benefits.

Infiltration is passed from the Scouts to their Dedicated transport, per pg 167 of the Rulebook, "If a unit with Infiltrate deploys inside a dedicated transport, they may infiltrate along with their transport." By guaranteeing that you can deploy after your opponent's main deployment, you can see where weakly held objectives are, and can deploy to them, and then rely upon your castle / Sternguard causing enough damage to distract from the Scouts being killed. Additionally, the Assault Cannon on the Storm should raise its target priority above the scouts, which should buy them an extra turn or two. It would probably be a good idea to buy them a Heavy Bolter, as well, but I forgot while I was making the list.

The Sternguard then drop in, and do what they do. Remember that Pedro gives +1 Attack to everyone nearby, which makes the Sternguard quite the bully unit. I've never really used Sternguard much, so their particular loadouts may not be effective. My idea was that you have your initial alpha strike, then rely on ranged weapons like Plasma and Grav to reach out and touch things, after claiming an objective.

You don't quite achieve Null Deployment, but that can be a good thing. This either allows you to react entirely to your opponent's deployment, or gives you a strongpoint that your opponent will probably want to avoid.


Thunderfire Cannon: [Includes Techmarine Gunner]

Devastator Squad [5]: 2x Lascannon, Cherub, Signum
Rhino: Storm Bolter

Devastator Squad [5]: 2x Lascannon, Cherub, Signum
Rhino: Storm Bolter

Dreadnought: Plasma Cannon, Storm Bolter
Drop Pod: Storm Bolter


Scouts [5]: Boltguns
Land Speeder Storm: Assault Cannon, Cerberus Launcher

Scouts [5]: Boltguns
Land Speeder Storm: Assault Cannon, Cerberus Launcher


Pedro Kantor: [Joins Sternguard, Below]
Sternguard [7]: 2x Plasmagun, 5x Combi-Melta, Power Fist
Drop Pod: Storm Bolter

Sternguard [6]: 2x Grav Cannon w/ Amp,
Drop Pod: Storm Bolter


So mostly, the models you have don't suit the IF style of play, from what I can see. I think I can make a much more powerful list with Sallys. I'll check back tomorrow!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8293095.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8293095.page GMT Formations? TFC I believe there over talked up. That a big weakness in sm no good hoard weapons. I don't get Why ever one loves and uses scouts as I feel there very weak and I rather use tac squads. Also dev squads should be fully load out. I feel my list is a rather good rounded lisr. I feel the list you have me would be easily beat ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8294402.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8294402.page GMT Re:Formations? TFC with Tigurius, generally giving it rending, in the ignores cover shot, with Prescience. Good times.

But, like I said, the models you have would probably be better off as Sallys, so with that in mind...


Vulkan He'Stan: Bolt Pistol, The Forge Father, Gauntlet of the Forge, Kesare's Mantle, Spear of Vulkan
Tactical Squad [5]: Flamer, MC Melta Bombs, Combi-Flamer
Drop Pod: Storm Bolter

Tactical Squad [10]: Meltagun, Multi Melta, Veteran Sergeant, MC Power Fist, Combi-Melta
Drop Pod: Storm Bolter

Dreadnought: Multi Melta, Heavy Flamer
Drop Pod: Storm Bolter


Dreadnought: Multi Melta, Heavy Flamer

Bikes [5]: 2x Grav Gun, Veteran Sergeant, MC Power Fist

Assault Squad [7]: 2x Flamer, Veteran Sergeant, MC Eviscerator, 7x JP

Ironclad Dreadnought: 2x Heavy Flamer, Ironclad Assault Launcher
Storm Raven: Twin-Linked Lascannon, Twin-Linked Multi Melta, 4x Storm Strike Missiles


I've played this list a couple times, and it was fun. It also suits your models rather well, just proxy a Talon as a Raven for a game or two, see if it works for you. It uses a lot of close range firepower, combined with assault elements.

The Dread on foot is one of those tricky Target Priority units. It's damage output is pretty weak, and if it gets a cover save, it's pretty tough, so you generally want to leave it alone. But if you leave it alone, it will camp an objective, and then you need to assault it late game to move it, which is a bad idea because it will smash your face. It can throw a wrench in a good player's game.

The Raven can act as a late game taxi. One of the downsides of Pod armies is that once you're down, you're kind of stuck, especially if you have short ranged weapons, like the Sallys favour. This way, you can pick up a flamer / melta squad, and a Dread if they're nearby, and then sling them around the board late game. You can get pretty boned if your Raven doesn't show up till turn 4... but that's only an 11% chance, right?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8295567.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8295567.page GMT Re:Formations?
 greatbigtree wrote:
Hey, fair enough. I like the boosted ruin, and I usually run a TFC with Tigurius, generally giving it rending, in the ignores cover shot, with Prescience. Good times.

But, like I said, the models you have would probably be better off as Sallys, so with that in mind...


Vulkan He'Stan: Bolt Pistol, The Forge Father, Gauntlet of the Forge, Kesare's Mantle, Spear of Vulkan
Tactical Squad [5]: Flamer, MC Melta Bombs, Combi-Flamer
Drop Pod: Storm Bolter

Tactical Squad [10]: Meltagun, Multi Melta, Veteran Sergeant, MC Power Fist, Combi-Melta
Drop Pod: Storm Bolter

Dreadnought: Multi Melta, Heavy Flamer
Drop Pod: Storm Bolter


Dreadnought: Multi Melta, Heavy Flamer

Bikes [5]: 2x Grav Gun, Veteran Sergeant, MC Power Fist

Assault Squad [7]: 2x Flamer, Veteran Sergeant, MC Eviscerator, 7x JP

Ironclad Dreadnought: 2x Heavy Flamer, Ironclad Assault Launcher
Storm Raven: Twin-Linked Lascannon, Twin-Linked Multi Melta, 4x Storm Strike Missiles


I've played this list a couple times, and it was fun. It also suits your models rather well, just proxy a Talon as a Raven for a game or two, see if it works for you. It uses a lot of close range firepower, combined with assault elements.

The Dread on foot is one of those tricky Target Priority units. It's damage output is pretty weak, and if it gets a cover save, it's pretty tough, so you generally want to leave it alone. But if you leave it alone, it will camp an objective, and then you need to assault it late game to move it, which is a bad idea because it will smash your face. It can throw a wrench in a good player's game.

The Raven can act as a late game taxi. One of the downsides of Pod armies is that once you're down, you're kind of stuck, especially if you have short ranged weapons, like the Sallys favour. This way, you can pick up a flamer / melta squad, and a Dread if they're nearby, and then sling them around the board late game. You can get pretty boned if your Raven doesn't show up till turn 4... but that's only an 11% chance, right?



It seems a waste to place He'Stan into a tac squad like that. Sure, you take him for master crafting your melta, but the Spear of Vulkan, his captain statline, and his 2+/3++ makes him perfect for an assault deathstar. And while assault isn't great in 7e, you still need it to lock down certain units, among other things.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8295654.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8295654.page GMT Formations? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8295736.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8295736.page GMT Formations? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8295789.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8295789.page GMT Formations? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8296260.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8296260.page GMT Formations? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8296372.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8296372.page GMT Formations? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8296970.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8296970.page GMT Formations?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Any time I try aAlpha strike with my 3pods it seems a wast as I don't really do more the kick a hornets nest


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Am looking at formations but as I never bought sky hammer which I wouldn't mind using if I could just find how to get it. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8297246.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8297246.page GMT Formations? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8297321.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8297321.page GMT Formations? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8297610.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8297610.page GMT Formations? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8297684.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8297684.page GMT Formations? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8297940.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8297940.page GMT Formations?
newguy1984 wrote:
So how does one get the rules


There's practically no way to get an "official" copy, because they only sold 200 units of that formation, and the only "official" source of rules is a laminated sheet of paper that came with the kit. You can find the rules themselves for the Skyhammer all over the Internet, however.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8297946.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8297946.page GMT Re:Formations?
My experience with Vulkan is that he's a solid Bully leader, but not Death Star material. Lack of Eternal Warrior is key, but the other element is lack of AP 2, which most Stars [or at least their leaders] run in my neighbourhood. Lastly, I'd want his strength to be higher, to be able to handle Imp / Wraith Knights, Dreadnoughts, that sort of thing. Plus, flamering Deathstars is woefully ineffective. I've found it's better to have him excel at smushing stuff that's weak in CC, rather than struggle to harm true Death Stars. Just my experience, so far with him.


@New Guy

If you don't like being up close and personal, why does everything in your army have Meltas and Flamers? Why take 2x Jump Pack assault characters? I've presented a list that I've played with, that nearly mimics the models you have available. Even so far as to use 3 Dreadnoughts! I encourage you to give this a try. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by how effective it is. Sub out the bikes if you must, but they're very good at what they do. You'd mentioned that you'd be willing to spend $300 to get things going. I bought that squad for $30 [plus some shipping, spread around several other purchases], using bits from that site I mentioned earlier. If you find you're losing a lot, ask for advice, then say that you know better... A lawyer that represents himself has a fool for a client.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8298121.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8298121.page GMT Re:Formations?
 greatbigtree wrote:
@Asorel

My experience with Vulkan is that he's a solid Bully leader, but not Death Star material. Lack of Eternal Warrior is key, but the other element is lack of AP 2, which most Stars [or at least their leaders] run in my neighbourhood. Lastly, I'd want his strength to be higher, to be able to handle Imp / Wraith Knights, Dreadnoughts, that sort of thing. Plus, flamering Deathstars is woefully ineffective. I've found it's better to have him excel at smushing stuff that's weak in CC, rather than struggle to harm true Death Stars. Just my experience, so far with him.


Your reasons are sound enough, though I still question the wisdom of swinging completely in the other direction and putting him into a tactical squad. I usually don't bother pitting him and his squad against anything with a 2+ save or the durability of Dreadnoughts or Knights, as my army usually has enough grav and melta to deal with those threats by other means. Vulkan seems pretty good in a CC squad of massed AP3, and going against medium-strength targets (Funny how that's all MEQ are nowadays) accordingly. As such, he seems the perfect fit for Honor Guard, a comparatively cheap elite CC unit with lots of AP 3 in power weapons.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8298139.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8298139.page GMT Formations? Even with both hq

How would you use vulkan with honor guard there's no way to get them in cc with out during that why I never uses anything But cheap hq because there no way to get them in the fight ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8298732.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8298732.page GMT Formations? need to be, to fire those weapons), which means that they're literally useless with the sort of tactics you prefer to use. If you want to keep your distance, then why didn't you pick pasma guns and grav guns?

I don't understand your circumstances. Did you buy an army already assembled? Or did you assemble the models before reading the rules? At this point, you either need to try some new tactics to suit the weapons you've armed your army with, or replace the weapons to something more suitable for the tactics you're using.

I can't even understand your last ... sentence? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8298761.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8298761.page GMT Formations?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess if I going to use the guns I got am must risk getting close]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8298828.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8298828.page GMT Formations?
newguy1984 wrote:
No I gave them weapons based off what I read on line also I won't do plasm. I read it a very bad weapon along with my missiles


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess if I going to use the guns I got am must risk getting close


Good god, you're still at it? I'm sorry but so far it feels you're just rambling on regardless of the advice you're being given, you keep going off on different tangents and while it's fine to bring in follow-up questions you rarely seem to incorporate or build on what others have given you before you go off on another digression. Have you read thoroughly through the rules as I suggested? It still seems as if though you don't get the fundamentals of what certain weapons or units are intended to do in the game.

If you want to be better informed you MUST clear up your current writing, it is a complete mess. It is part of forum rules and decorum and half of the work people are doing when reading your posts is deciphering what you're talking about. Please use proper punctuation and grammar. We can help a looooot better when we can figure out where your train of thought is going.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8299842.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8299842.page GMT Formations? Sorry to be mean but it's the truth. Thanks for the help from me everyone]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8300008.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8300008.page GMT Formations? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8300013.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8300013.page GMT Formations?
Grimlineman wrote:
Well said grimskul. I been following this post because I need help with a new marines army as well but some of the things he says after someone try's to help makes me face palm.
Sorry to be mean but it's the truth. Thanks for the help from me everyone


Anything specific you need? I'm not a tactical genius (hurr) by any means but I can still give advice.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8300015.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8300015.page GMT Formations?
How are grav centurions in a Demi? No way to give them a pod and with their slow movement not sure if they would work as well?I already have them and tiggy ( but have a capt to so no big deal) I wanted to use as hq so leaning towards cad but not sure yet.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8300148.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8300148.page GMT Formations?
Grimlineman wrote:
Just trying to decide if the Demi company or cad is the way I want to build. I'm using UM so extra doctrines would be nice I guess

How are grav centurions in a Demi? No way to give them a pod and with their slow movement not sure if they would work as well?I already have them and tiggy ( but have a capt to so no big deal) I wanted to use as hq so leaning towards cad but not sure yet.


Ultramarines aren't as good with a Demi because you can only use one doctrine per turn anyways. Whenever I've run them, I make sure to get drop pods from other areas (usually a CAD), but if that isn't practical the Stormraven is a decent way of getting them where they need to be. Just be wary of that Reserve roll.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8300198.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8300198.page GMT Formations? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8300247.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8300247.page GMT formtions?
 SharkoutofWata wrote:
You build an army however you want. There is no standard anymore.


And that's why everyone is leaving for better games, 40k has become apoc. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8300457.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8300457.page GMT Re:Formations?
 asorel wrote:


Your reasons are sound enough, though I still question the wisdom of swinging completely in the other direction and putting him into a tactical squad. I usually don't bother pitting him and his squad against anything with a 2+ save or the durability of Dreadnoughts or Knights, as my army usually has enough grav and melta to deal with those threats by other means. Vulkan seems pretty good in a CC squad of massed AP3, and going against medium-strength targets (Funny how that's all MEQ are nowadays) accordingly. As such, he seems the perfect fit for Honor Guard, a comparatively cheap elite CC unit with lots of AP 3 in power weapons.


My reasoning was that I was going to take a Tactical squad per the CAD requirements, and they have access to flamers, so he joins a flamer-cide squad. He has enough durability to avoid the -cide. He generally survives the battle. The list I presented was an attempt to use lots of Dreads, because I like them. I do like Honour Guard, but I find that if I pod them, people run away and they don't make contact. If I take a Land Raider for them, they're really expensive, for no Invul. And I don't like putting anything in a Raven without a Storm Shield, or an AV to protect them. I don't have enough Honour Guard to run them as anything but a 5-man, which makes the Raider transport mega-overkill. If I had more of them...

Vulkan would be a great add-on to Honour Guard, but I have trouble making contact with them. And then his Flamer is kind of wasted. Again, in my experience. If you can make contact with Vulkan and Friends, you're doing well. I find I can bully things well enough, between all the flamers and Vulkan's CC prowess. I take him more for the Melta benefit, than anything else.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8300479.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8300479.page GMT Formations? What I trying to say is I built my army based on what I read online . I personal perfer to fight at range and don't get drop pods but ever where I go people say use x our y etc . I love hb but I told there a joke so I don't use them like internet says]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8300491.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8300491.page GMT Formations?
It's actually not as broken as it seems (you can't cap squat with it and can't kill enough to stop your opponents from capping) but your opponent will be flabbergasted at how all of your units just refuse to die.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8300538.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8300538.page GMT Formations?
newguy1984 wrote:
Ok sorry my stuff is hard to read I been using my phone.
What I trying to say is I built my army based on what I read online . I personal perfer to fight at range and don't get drop pods but ever where I go people say use x our y etc . I love hb but I told there a joke so I don't use them like internet says


Well, you have to test the legitimacy of your sources. If you prefer to fight at range, but purchased all short-ranged weaponry, you can't be surprised that your list is falling apart on the table. You can't just take all of the advice from the internet, and then smash a list together using contradictory advice from everyone with a keyboard and basic language skills.

If you want to play at range, you need [long] ranged weapons. You need mobility, to ensure that you have appropriate targets. You need to develop strategies that will allow you to deal with armies that get all up in your grille.

You want to play White Scars, believe it or not. If scars get stuck in melee, they have a 2/3 chance to break away, to be able to shoot the unit they broke away from. Further, anything with LOS to that target can now also shoot them. Odds go to 5/6, if you include a character with higher Initiative.

You might think that you need to play bikers, but that would be because you're an idiot, in the friendliest sense. Hit and Run on infantry squads allows you to slip out of close combats you don't want to be in, and start using your ranged firepower on the targets that are getting up close to you. In that sense, you can pod down right next to something Assaulty, and if they charge you, you just run away at the end of the assault phase. Read up on the rules for Hit and Run. If you want to play shooty, it can save your bacon.

Heavy Bolters are kind of a joke. That's accurate. Unless you combine them in a Dev Squad, with Tigurius or Telion, to give them Rending... I've had fun with that in a game or two.

It would probably help you, to forget what you've read, and start thinking on your own. How do I want to play? How is that countered? What can I do about that?

White Scar, shooty, non-bike list, coming your way in the next day or two.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8301612.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8301612.page GMT Formations?
newguy1984 wrote:
Ok sorry my stuff is hard to read I been using my phone.
What I trying to say is I built my army based on what I read online . I personal perfer to fight at range and don't get drop pods but ever where I go people say use x our y etc . I love hb but I told there a joke so I don't use them like internet says


Online tacticas are generally for tournaments and based around the metagame as a whole. Unless you're going to one of those hyper-competitve enviroments you should really build your list with what you feel is comfortable.

That said, if you like fighting at range, White Scars probably won't be the best choice of Chapter Tactics. If you like Heavy Bolters, I would highly recommend Imperial Fists. Bolter Drills help you land more hits with your Heavy Bolter shots and it also marginally improves your generic marines holding bolters.

There's also a few ForgeWorld Chapter Tactics (I believe they're posted online at FW's own website) that works with Codex: Space Marines, but I haven't looked into them too deeply yet. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8301634.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8301634.page GMT Formations? 40k there's only one way to rightly build any army. Also I read stuff on line on how to kill knights and such because I see no way to kill them our other MC,GMC, our superheavys in General as I can't see a away to deal with them out of 200pluse games against a riptide I killed one time. That why my brother won't use more then one as they are pain ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8301777.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8301777.page GMT Formations? CT encourages a different style of play, a different way of building an army. I can play my Ultramarines and build a demi-company, as the UM CT encourages it. Or I can go play White Scars and build a bike heavy list, as their CT encourages that. The internet tends to offer conflicting advice, so take everything that's said with a grain of salt. A Marine army has the tools to take on every other army, you just have to find it. If you don't understand that then there's very little we can do for you.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8301785.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8301785.page GMT Formations?
 War Kitten wrote:
I'm sorry, but that's just plain wrong. There is no "one" way to build an army unless you're playing competitively with certain armies. You're a Marine player, every single CT encourages a different style of play, a different way of building an army. I can play my Ultramarines and build a demi-company, as the UM CT encourages it. Or I can go play White Scars and build a bike heavy list, as their CT encourages that. The internet tends to offer conflicting advice, so take everything that's said with a grain of salt. A Marine army has the tools to take on every other army, you just have to find it. If you don't understand that then there's very little we can do for you.


Well said War Kitten. Also...how can you (as in newguy1984) have learned that there's only one way to build an army if you haven't even figured out what the basic units or weapons do yet? Putting the cart before the horse a little aren't we? The fact that there are so many different conflicting builds and ideas for various factions should alone demonstrate how that isn't true, if it were you would have already found the foolproof "one army list to rule them all" by now. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8301895.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8301895.page GMT Formations? hq. But I get the feeling I doing that backwards.
Another one is my stormtalon is for dealing with enemy flyers nothing more I been asked why don't I shot with it am like there no planes for it to shoot at so why shot it.
Drop pods ok why do I want to jump out in front of if whole army just to get shot to death why are pods so great all never know.

Deployment I start in one side deploying one unit at time following my army list so it hqs then troops then elits etc




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I feel like there is a right way and wrong way to build ur army because any time you post a list it's like. Oh switch that for that etc it's like ever marine army should be ran x way]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302015.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302015.page GMT Formations? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302023.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302023.page GMT Formations?
newguy1984 wrote:
I get basic units and weapons do. But my understanding of what weapon to use us way off a good example of this are lascanon are best for tank duty . but I keep getinh why aren't using melta for that am like why aren't melta better at destroying bunkers our getting up close and smoking a hq. But I get the feeling I doing that backwards.
Another one is my stormtalon is for dealing with enemy flyers nothing more I been asked why don't I shot with it am like there no planes for it to shoot at so why shot it.
Drop pods ok why do I want to jump out in front of if whole army just to get shot to death why are pods so great all never know.

Deployment I start in one side deploying one unit at time following my army list so it hqs then troops then elits etc



1: Melta command squads or Combi melta Sternguard, in a drop pod, are very good at killing tanks, especially AV14 tanks. Lascannons are the next best thing

2: Stormtalons are Dakka. They are for killing anything, not just flyers.

3: Drop pods make the enemy fight where you want them to fight and on your terms. Putting pods in the enemy back field makes him think about going for objectives or trying to kill what is behind him]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302024.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302024.page GMT Re:Formations?
I'm more of a rhino guy but I'm slowly getting drop pods so i can do either.

Your going to want more models than you'll use for any one game because you don't want to be the guy who never changes his list cause he can't.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302127.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302127.page GMT Formations?
newguy1984 wrote:
I get basic units and weapons do. But my understanding of what weapon to use us way off a good example of this are lascanon are best for tank duty . but I keep getinh why aren't using melta for that am like why aren't melta better at destroying bunkers our getting up close and smoking a hq. But I get the feeling I doing that backwards.
Another one is my stormtalon is for dealing with enemy flyers nothing more I been asked why don't I shot with it am like there no planes for it to shoot at so why shot it.
Drop pods ok why do I want to jump out in front of if whole army just to get shot to death why are pods so great all never know.

Deployment I start in one side deploying one unit at time following my army list so it hqs then troops then elits etc




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I feel like there is a right way and wrong way to build ur army because any time you post a list it's like. Oh switch that for that etc it's like ever marine army should be ran x way


Okay a few points here,

1. You haven't fixed your grammar or spelling. Even if you're on your phone you can take the time to make sure everything comes out coherently. Please follow forum rules.

2. You're proving my point on how you don't understand the basics if I understand what you're trying to say. Look at some battle reports and the rules over again, a lot of this is common sense when it comes to how things work. If you still don't get it I'm afraid the finer points of tactics might be beyond you.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302244.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302244.page GMT Formations? I use pods because that what people have told me to use.

Also watching battle reports does me no good as I feel like there playing a different game.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302306.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302306.page GMT Re:Formations?
What are your 3 favourite units to play with? Me, I like Dreadnoughts. I also like the idea of Devastator Squads. I also like using a unit that can punch face. I could build a list from these things, and they would work together. I'd have a firebase [sit'n'shoot units, like Devs] some slow moving units [like Tacs in Rhinos, Dreadnoughts] and I'd have some fast moving units [like Assault Terminators in a Storm Raven] and I could use those three units in concert to have a competitive army.

I also sometime like to use Salamanders, because they're very good at applying damage quickly. Because I want to use lots of Melta and Flamers, as well as Master Crafted close combat upgrades, I take units that can move quickly, fire, and then assault if the opportunity presents itself. The Salamander list I posted uses that idea.

So in a perfect world, what 3 units would you include in a list? There will be others, but what 3 units would you have fun playing with? Don't worry about the practicalities. What 3 units do you have the most fun playing with?

@ Grimskul: You know who likes a grammar Nazi? Exactly. Let it go. If you can't deal, there's the door.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302414.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302414.page GMT Formations?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dreads are number one
Tac squads I always use 3
Dev squads one missiles other lascanon
Termy assault squad ten men seldom use them
Storm talon
Top 5 units I love

Lest favorite is hqs as I have no idea how to use any as they just seem to die easy
Bikes
Stern guard as the no better then tac squads
Pods as I can't seem to find out how the work

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302415.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302415.page GMT Re:Formations?
Deploying your units in cover will improve their odds of survival. Deploying units close to objectives makes it easier to capture them. Creating a "Flank" deployment will either encourage your opponent to set up in position to best attack / defend against your units.

[Eldar, due to being incredibly mobile, can set up on one side of the board, and in one turn move everything to the other side of the board. This can be used in all kinds of ways, from avoiding damage to quickly redeploying to create an excellent attack position.]

Flyers would shoot ground targets, because you might want those ground targets to stop hurting your forces.

Dropping a Pod on a Flank, particularly with weapons like Plasmaguns, or Grav Cannons, could allow you to capture an open objective, while still permitting you the opportunity to provide fire support. If your opponent is hiding behind a big hill, for example, then dropping on the side, where you could gain LOS to them, would be valuable. Remember, winning the game is often about claiming objectives, not killing things... though they often go hand in hand.

Knights aren't invulnerable. They're AV 12 on their side and rear. Meltaguns are likely to penetrate, if they hit, and they're generally the best way to try to get "explode" results, that inflict extra HP's of damage. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302426.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302426.page GMT Formations? brb as maelstrom is just to random . and if you just get tabled our loss most of your army by end game how are you going to win on objective like in maelstrom ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302431.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302431.page GMT Re:Formations?
40k is often about resource exchange. Think about Chess. If you can take 4 pawns, but only lose 2, you've probably made some good moves. 40k isn't exactly analogous to that, but if you sacrifice a 5 man tactical squad, so that you can lure a "valuable" unit of your opponent's into the open, where you then blast the snot out of it, you've probably made a good trade. Say, 100 points of models for 200 points of models, something like that.

Give me some time. I'm going to try to make you a list with your preferred models.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302438.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302438.page GMT Re:Formations?
 greatbigtree wrote:
@ Grimskul: You know who likes a grammar Nazi? Exactly. Let it go. If you can't deal, there's the door.


*shrug* If he wants to be taken more seriously and his issues to be addressed then he should write appropriately, he was even reminded by a mod once already of following forum etiquette and his lack of clearness due to his grammatical/spelling errors has already been shown to confuse several posters trying to help him. Basic punctuation should not be that hard, even when writing it out via phone.

Good luck trying to explain to him how 40K works, after all the input everyone else has already done I hope you'll finally be able to break through to him. I'm certainly done trying to.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302443.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302443.page GMT Formations? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302476.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302476.page GMT Formations? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302516.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302516.page GMT Re:Formations?
In a nutshell, the units you have don't suit the style you wish to play. We're going to fix that.

If you believe you're "doing it wrong" then that will mean you need to change your play style. Since your previous, unsuccessful, play style was based on wildly differing opinions, that you tried to incorporate into a whole, my honest suggestion is to completely discard any previous advice you've heard, and start from fresh.

Honestly, completely let go of the past. Re-read the rule book. Take the time to do so. Nothing is more critical to your improvement as a player right now, then re-reading the rules. Before you play another game, re-read the rules.

Strategy is the pre-game choices you make. The army list you choose, and why you choose those options. The reason you choose those options, is to successfully achieve the goals of the missions. You must know the objectives of the missions, to know how to achieve those goals. To know how to achieve the goals, you must understand the game mechanics. To understand the game mechanics, you must know the rules. You must read and comprehend the rules. The strategies you employ, during list creation, will have a direct impact on the tactics you have available during the game.

Tactics are the in-game choices you make. The options you have will depend on the options you chose during army list creation. Did you take enough Anti-Tank / MC weapons? If so, you can choose to attempt to destroy those units. If you did not, you'll likely need to choose to avoid / minimise the harm that such units can do to you, while you attempt to achieve the mission objectives. Did you take units that have high mobility? If not, and you have no objectives in your deployment zone, you'll need to move out, a slow roll, to maintain firepower while you slog to those objectives. The strategy of hunker down and shoot long range weapons doesn't succeed if you have no objectives to control in your deployment zone.

In general, 7th edition favours mobility and firepower. Things that Bikes happen to do very well. At least, pretty well. But you don't like bikes, so we're going to have to take a different strategy, to unlock different tactics.

You are missing a cohesive strategy, that will allow you to employ the tactics you desire to use. To develop that strategy, you'll need to read and understand the rules. Then you'll understand why Drop Pods work in some lists, and why they don't in others. Why Rhino Rush is no longer super successful, while Bike armies are generally the stronger Troop Choices. There is a successful HQ Beatstick in the SM army. It's Chapter Master Smash Face. Why is he successful? He's fast, tough, and most importantly, he's got Eternal Warrior, because Instant Death is common now.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302523.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302523.page GMT Re:Formations?
zilka86 wrote:
Ok lets just talk about sterngaurd how can they hurt superheavy like knights ever time i try the alpha strike with 5guys melta heavy they never hurt it because of the shields. then next trun if the knight doesn't stomp them dead the get shot dead before they can do anything useful .
i know there a great unit and all but they seem to never make there points backs 200pts gone

Now they also can't hurt a landrider our lrbt our any large tank heck they can't even kill a predtor tank they seem weak for the little they do. What am i missing with them


They both share the same kind of vernacular, particularly the speech and how mind-bogglingly ignorant they seem to be regarding straight forward units. Particularly how he keeps asking about what he seems to be "missing" is uncannily close to his most recent post.

Call me crazy but it looks like they might be the same guy.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302527.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302527.page GMT Re:Formations?
Could you go play with a chainsaw, or something? You said you were done here, be done here. You're not helping.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302530.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302530.page GMT Formations?
I really try to take people's advice and I being honest as I can be .

Yes I built my list based off internet wisdom.
I wouldn't mind using a lot of what I use already just if I new how to use it. But I always fall back to don't get close stay back and shoot . oh you got 4 knight I already lost there no way to win mentality so I give up our forfeit game after I lost half my army



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Heck I have moved assault marines off the table to avoid getting in a fight with firewarriors and kroot


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I been reading rules a lot still can't connect the dots ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302580.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302580.page GMT Formations? CC (such as bikes). Want a punchy list? Take fast units that can get to CC without getting shot up too badly. Want a TAC list? Take a mix of both units. It's not bad to build a list based off of internet wisdom, but you have to know WHY those units are decent. Just grabbing units from an internet list and throwing them in yours won't help you win. You need to know how to best utilize those units. What can these Centurions do for me? What use will this Rhino pose? What can I do with this Storm Raven? Basically, look at a unit and ask yourself what purpose they could serve. We were all new to this game once. Don't give up on yourself quite yet.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302590.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302590.page GMT Formations? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302943.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8302943.page GMT Formations?
newguy1984 wrote:
That's a big problem I have I look at a unit and no idea how to use it our why its good. Like grav cents what are they for. Heck I don't even get rhinos and I own 5like drive at enemy jump out and shoot that's if you make there
Grav Cents are a hard-counter to units which are normally difficult to kill, such as Wraithknights - drop pod them into range and it's an almost certainty the enemy unit vanishes in a single shooting attack. They combine reasonable durability (2+ and 2W) with ignoring the downside of Grav (due to the Slow and Purposeful rule, they always fire at the full profile even if they moved), and their downsides (lack of an invuln, range and slowness) can be countered by adding characters and a drop pod.

Rhinos are for getting your guys where they need to be faster than they can on foot. Less important in Eternal War missions, but in Maelstrom having an additional (in some cases, Ob Sec) unit to capture / contest objectives is great, all for only 35pts. You could take Razors instead, but lose out on the fire points. After the unit has disembarked they can still be used as mobile line-of-sight blockers to protect units, or dislodge units with Tank Shocks.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8303080.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8303080.page GMT Formations?
newguy1984 wrote:

Dreads are number one
Tac squads I always use 3
Dev squads one missiles other lascanon
Termy assault squad ten men seldom use them
Storm talon
Top 5 units I love

Lest favorite is hqs as I have no idea how to use any as they just seem to die easy
Bikes
Stern guard as the no better then tac squads
Pods as I can't seem to find out how the work


So, a shooty army that focuses on the units above, avoids the units below. An army that includes mobility that isn't bikes, or pods. An army that still has assault elements in the Dreads and Termies, but prefers to shoot as a means of damage. An army that needs to be able to consistently be able to shoot, doing so by means of Hit and Run, to escape combats.

Welcome, Bikeless White Scars at 1500 points....

125 - Kor'Sarro Khan:
225 - Assault Terminators [5]: 5x Thunder Hammer + Storm Shield
200 - Storm Raven: Twin-Linked Multi Melta, Twin-Linked Lascannon, 4x Storm Strike Missiles


95 - Tactical Squad [5]: Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma
35 - Rhino: Storm Bolter

95 - Tactical Squad [5]: Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma
35 - Rhino: Storm Bolter

95 - Tactical Squad [5]: Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma
35 - Rhino: Storm Bolter

110 - Dreadnought: Assault Cannon + Storm Bolter


115 - Devastator Squad [5]: 2x Lascannon, Ar Cherub, Signum
35 - Rhino: Storm Bolter

115 - Devastator Squad [5]: 2x Lascannon, Ar Cherub, Signum
35 - Rhino: Storm Bolter

105 - Dreadnought: Twin-Linked Autocannon + Storm Bolter

[TOTAL = 1455]

Note, that this list is below points. This will give you some wiggle room to tailor the list to your liking. For example, if you face a lot of Knights, it's probably worth giving your Sergeants Meltabombs. You might also want to exchange a Plasmagun, in one of the Tactical Squads, for a Grav Cannon with Amp. Because of the pre-game scout move, you can move into range, in cover, to set up a reasonably priced support fire point.

You might also want to re-gig points, to have access to a lv 1 librarian, to gain Prescience from the Divination table. TH / SS Terminators are good, but rerolling misses with them is very good.


Primary Mission Objective: Be able to move to Objectives. Hopefully, those objectives are in cover, which will improve the survivability of the occupants. Kor'Sarro Khan allows a scout move, pre-game, so that Dev Squads can be redeployed outside of deployment zone, if needed, to gain better LoS / secure objectives. Unlike Pods, this extra movement doesn't hinder their first turn ability to fire the Heavy Weapons. The Tacticals can also redeploy, increasing movement and gaining better location.

Game Mechanics: Units in Rhinos, in cover, are significantly more survivable than a similar number of points on foot. They're also faster. This works to improve the utility of these units [especially with Khan's rules] which will improve your overall ability to win the game.

Game Mechanics: Khan isn't taken to be a beat-stick. He's taken to gain the Scout rule, for nearly your entire force.

Overall Strategy: Once there, use ranged firepower to apply damage to opponents. If opponents assault your units [preventing firepower and... well... killing your models] use Hit and Run to break out of combat. Apply all available firepower, then counter assault with Dreadnoughts. Rinse and repeat, as necessary.

Specific Strategy: While Khan isn't a beat-stick, his weapon does give him a chance to ID a big target, so he works well with the Assault Termies, since they also want to be attacking tough stuff. Khan's high Initiative gives him a chance to thin out your opponent's numbers, before they can attack, which increases the survival of the unit as a whole. ID can be useful against Gargantuan Creatures, as they can potentially inflict extra HP, instead of ID, which is another target your Assault Termies should be going after.

Specific Strategy: Use scouted Rhinos as alternatives to Pods. Positives are that you are able to remain embarked, thus more survivable. You have two fire points, so keeping upgraded weapons to 2 max gives you maximum firepower, and if the Rhinos are destroyed, you have some "chump wounds" that can die before you lose upgraded weapons.

Specific Strategy: Use Dreadnoughts as fire support, and counter-assault protection. Most of your units want to avoid combat, so a clever opponent will assault them... but now you can escape that, and then punch them out with 20 tonne robots.

Specific Strategy: Use a fast moving assault transport, to deliver your Assault Terminators. The Storm Raven also happens to be decently tough, and is pretty good at shooting another flyer out of the sky. Not as points efficient as a Talon, but you get the value of delivering your Assault Squad.

Tactical Consideration: If your opponent has no practical way to assault your Dev squad, you could transport a Dreadnought with the SR, to increase your ability to get him into melee, if your opponent is weak in Melee.

Game Mechanics: Normally, assaulting an enemy would prevent you from being able to continue applying ranged damage to them. Hit and Run gives you the opportunity to assault something, wait through your opponent's assault phase, then break off before your turn starts. Assuming you're successful, you can then continue applying ranged damage to units that are pinned in place, before assaulting them again. Increased ranged damage, increased assault damage due to gaining bonus attacks on the charge. Assault is still a key element of the game, and your preferred models require that, so it's good to be able to have the best of both worlds.

Strategic Consideration: I've gone with Plasma upgrades, because of their range. This allows you to apply damage a turn sooner, on average, and lets you ramp up damage when opponents get close. A given Plasma Shot has a 1/18 chance to kill a Marine [6% chance] so tends to be a good exchange of resources, as you're much more likely to kill something else, than yourself.

Specific Strategy: The Dread that advances with the Tacticals has a shorter range, high volume of fire weapon that's good against most anything. This weapon works, because you'll be moving towards things, and will likely be in that shorter range. The Dread that stays with the Devs has a longer range, medium rate of fire weapon, that would typically help to strip off the last HP, after the Lascannons have shot at something.


What questions do you have, about this specific list? Remember, that you have a few points left over, that we could re-gig to suit your specific preferences. If you're playing larger points, you could easily add a couple of Talons.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8303229.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8303229.page GMT Formations? tac squads to be ten men with both 2 special weapons feel there more durable that way.
And I realize I said assault termys when I meant tac termy

Is ok to run dread number 2 with lascanon over auto cannon
Now why do dev squads only got 2heavy weapons and not 4]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8303282.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8303282.page GMT Formations? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8303286.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8303286.page GMT Formations?
newguy1984 wrote:
Ok I would like tac squads to be ten men with both 2 special weapons feel there more durable that way.
And I realize I said assault termys when I meant tac termy

Is ok to run dread number 2 with lascanon over auto cannon
Now why do dev squads only got 2heavy weapons and not 4



Tac squads can be larger, though they can only take one "special" weapon per squad. At 10 men, they can also take a Heavy, but that doesn't synergise well with the probable need to move the Rhino around after the Scout redeployment. If that's your preference, you can still shoot 2 weapons from the hatch of the Rhino [2 Firepoints] . You can start the game with 10 men inside, and Combat squad when you deploy one or both of the Combat Squads from the Rhino.

There's also the issue of points, but that could be one way to expand up to 2000 points, if that's your typical game size.

Tac Termies can also work. They might even be better, as White Scars, as they can shoot, assault, break off, shoot, assault. They're cheaper on points, and still able to lay the beats on. Worse invul means they're apt to get beat down faster by "proper" death stars, but if that's your preference, that will still work. The general reason to take TH / SS Termies, instead of Tac Termies, is that they survive longer against the scarier Assault units in the game, but Tac Termies can still work. Like I said, Scars are the best Chapter to take for Tac Termies.

Yes, TL LC Dread is an ok alternative. I prefer TL AC, but that's my personal preference. They fill similar roles.


Dev Squads have 2x Heavies, as they can only fire 2 weapons from the hatch of the Rhino. Also, you can buff 1/2 of your Heavies with the Signum, instead of 1/4. If you miss with your 2nd LC, roughly 1/3 turns, you can reroll that attack one time with the Cherub, increasing consistency of the unit's output considerably. 4 LC would be a waste, in a Rhino, as only 2 could fire. Lastly, as mentioned, this gives you some chump wounds to endure casualties without reducing effectiveness.

4x LC, each wound lost from the unit is the loss of a lascannon, and about 35 points. Two wounds, 70 points lost, effectiveness of squad is halved.

2x LC, the first two wounds lost from the unit are 15 points each. Two wounds, 30 points lost, no decrease in effectiveness.



If this is a troll post, and there is a worry I'll admit, my willingness to help may be wasted on a potential troll, but others might benefit. It's giving for the sake of giving. Helping is always a risk, in regards to being chumped. It's a risk I'm willing to take. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8303326.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8303326.page GMT Formations? devs with 4 guns is I always just camped them some where to just keep shooting . never tried rhino because I understand ifvi move rhino that can't shot as there heavy guns.
Now with tac I ment special and heavy. Now I like idea of 2 10 man squads in rhinos with just special
My only problem I have is where do I stick hq.
As I normal deep strike my termys In. As I don't know if I would do storm raven maybe I use my landeridet crusader in it's place . funny thing is I never used my landrider ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8303391.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8303391.page GMT Formations?
 greatbigtree wrote:


If this is a troll post, and there is a worry I'll admit, my willingness to help may be wasted on a potential troll, but others might benefit. It's giving for the sake of giving. Helping is always a risk, in regards to being chumped. It's a risk I'm willing to take.


Perhaps next time without having to be unnecessarily snarky towards someone pointing out something legitimately suspicious . Half the reason why I was so hard on him was because he seemed to be wasting your time and others like War Kitten's. Beneficial as your posts may be, chances are it would be better focused towards someone who had more legitimate issues and could reciprocate the development of a tactical topic, like Grimlineman's own area of questioning.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8303438.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8303438.page GMT Formations?
 Grimskul wrote:

Perhaps next time without having to be unnecessarily snarky towards someone pointing out something legitimately suspicious . Half the reason why I was so hard on him was because he seemed to be wasting your time and others like War Kitten's. Beneficial as your posts may be, chances are it would be better focused towards someone who had more legitimate issues and could reciprocate the development of a tactical topic, like Grimlineman's own area of questioning.


You were supposed to go play with a chainsaw, remember? Now you have to smear yourself with bacon, and run through the Komodo Dragon exhibit.

I'll worry about my own time, thank you. Would you kindly stop wasting your time here, and spend it elsewhere?

Thanks!

@Newguy: The Raven was to transport the the Termies, but it also gives you an anti-air option, which might or might not be useful in your environment. I'd suggest keeping Khan with the Termies, as they're the best suited to get into melee, which is kind of what you want to do with Khan. His primary benefit is the Scout move. After that, beat-stick as best you can.

You could use a Land Raider, instead. My preference would be the Raven, but a Raider would work too. You have to work with the models in your collection, though I'd suggest taking a variant that would let you keep Khan with the Termies, such as Crusader or Redeemer. Which is too bad, because I like the Standard version best. *shrug* The Flamestom version would probably be my next best bet, as you can charge in, toast one unit, and then charge another.

Give'er a shot. I think you'll do ok. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8303599.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8303599.page GMT Formations? You no I got a lot of melta. I can do 2 games this week so I like to try to different style list and see what one I like more ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8303646.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8303646.page GMT Re:Formations?
Play the most recent White Scar list first game, then tweak it for your second game. Play the game you want to play, get good with it, then try something else.

You still need to re-read the rulebook, I'd wager, and the Salamander list I gave you earlier should be just fine, if you want to rock Melta and Flamers. You don't like using pods, so just forget about them for now. Play the Scar list, and get good with it. Once you WANT to use pods in your games, because you know what you want them to do, then try them. Not until.

Read the rulebook! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8303760.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8303760.page GMT Formations? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8303813.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8303813.page GMT Re:Formations?
I'm not much for the vice of modesty.

Re-reading the rules reminds you of the mechanics. Sometimes, you'll find something new. It's just a good way to improve your game. So do yourself a favour, and make it a habit to re-read the rules every six months or so.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8304045.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8304045.page GMT Re:Formations? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8304048.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8304048.page GMT Formations?
 greatbigtree wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:

Perhaps next time without having to be unnecessarily snarky towards someone pointing out something legitimately suspicious . Half the reason why I was so hard on him was because he seemed to be wasting your time and others like War Kitten's. Beneficial as your posts may be, chances are it would be better focused towards someone who had more legitimate issues and could reciprocate the development of a tactical topic, like Grimlineman's own area of questioning.


You were supposed to go play with a chainsaw, remember? Now you have to smear yourself with bacon, and run through the Komodo Dragon exhibit.

I'll worry about my own time, thank you. Would you kindly stop wasting your time here, and spend it elsewhere?

Give'er a shot. I think you'll do ok.


I really don't understand why you're being such a dick to Grimskul. The guy exposed a troll and advised you not to waste your time, and your responses on both occasions were needlessly antagonistic. It's fine if you don't care that this guy, who clearly is a duplicate account for zilka86, is wasting your time but that doesn't necessitate being so rude to someone who was clearly just trying to inform you of evident troll behavior. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8305962.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8305962.page GMT Formations?
 creeping-deth87 wrote:
 greatbigtree wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:

Perhaps next time without having to be unnecessarily snarky towards someone pointing out something legitimately suspicious . Half the reason why I was so hard on him was because he seemed to be wasting your time and others like War Kitten's. Beneficial as your posts may be, chances are it would be better focused towards someone who had more legitimate issues and could reciprocate the development of a tactical topic, like Grimlineman's own area of questioning.


You were supposed to go play with a chainsaw, remember? Now you have to smear yourself with bacon, and run through the Komodo Dragon exhibit.

I'll worry about my own time, thank you. Would you kindly stop wasting your time here, and spend it elsewhere?

Give'er a shot. I think you'll do ok.


I really don't understand why you're being such a dick to Grimskul. The guy exposed a troll and advised you not to waste your time, and your responses on both occasions were needlessly antagonistic. It's fine if you don't care that this guy, who clearly is a duplicate account for zilka86, is wasting your time but that doesn't necessitate being so rude to someone who was clearly just trying to inform you of evident troll behavior.


I think it may have to do with me being a "grammar Nazi" in my persistence of pushing for proper grammar in "not-zilka's" posts. Either that or somehow he felt that me posting that newguy1984 was a troll somehow invalidates his posts or steals his thunder. I'm not sure he sees the irony of telling me how to spend my time after telling me not to tell him how to spend his, lol. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8306200.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8306200.page GMT Formations? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8306205.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8306205.page GMT Formations?
 War Kitten wrote:
Well, I can say one thing. This thread has certainly got me thinking about what formations I want to look into for my Ultramarines. Something good came of it.


Yup, certainly good to see that not all troll threads end in frustration and bickering. It gave me more insight into dealing with other beakie army builds, and that's always good for my Orky ladz ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8306209.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8306209.page GMT Re:Formations? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8314169.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/671529/8314169.page GMT