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		<title><![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "fixing CSM codex"]]></title>
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				<title>fixing CSM codex</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ First of all, hello all, since i haven't posted here in a looooooong time. Now i have way too much time on my hands since i am recovering from appendix surgery so in anticipation of new codex(hopefully soon) decided to make my overhauled version of <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(22);'>CSM</span> codex, hopefully this version will be less of a codex: punching bags, without going into cheesemongering area. This is going to be a MAJOR overhaul, so be prepared for <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(126);'>tl</span>;dr<br /> Let's start of with codex- specific rules<br /> VETERANS OF THE LONG <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(410);'>WAR</span><br /> <div style="margin-top:5px; margin-bottom:10px;">
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EXCELLENT potential, decent rule in theory, in practice, rule is <img src="/s/i/a/7ae18ba11c7ba79f6898e876a4b8ba4a.gif" border="0"> <br /> The way i see it is to differentiate recent renegade marines from 10000 years old pissed off legion veterans who should have more superior stats to standard space marine, while of course costing more<br /> Honestly, i am sick and tired of these so called veterans of the Long war getting sweeped by some orks because dice gods decided to be pricks and similar situations, while loyalist space marines, who are approximately few centuries of age will continue to fight, even though they are LOT less battle hardened... I think you see the point, without further ado here is my idea of this rule<br /> HATRED: Armies of the Imperium, +1 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(82);'>LD</span>, automatic regroup and immunity to sweeping advances(<span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(8);'>ATSKNF</span> basically, but that sounds too noble for these evil badasses <img src="/s/i/a/6d3c0a908a3861135dfaebde91c0ecf6.gif" border="0"> ) <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(400);'>AS</span> WELL as certain boosts and special rules for certain units, i will get into it in their entries
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</div><br /> Champion of chaos<br /> <div style="margin-top:5px; margin-bottom:10px;">
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DITCH THE must issue/accept challenges stuff. If characters kill someone in a challenge, they get to roll <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(1);'>2D6</span> to see what happens to them<br /> 2 Test leadership- if failed, you get a chaos spawn, if passed, nothing happens<br /> 3 Champion gets stubborn<br /> 4 +1 Attack<br /> 5 +1 Strength<br /> 6 +1 Toughness<br /> 7 nothing<br /> 8 Shred<br /> 9 +1 Initiative<br /> 10 roll <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(1);'>2D6</span> 2 times, re-roll any doubles and any 10s you get<br /> 11 Eternal warrior<br /> 12 Test <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(82);'>LD</span>, if passed you get a daemon prince with power armor, <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(20);'>CCW</span> and 1 artefact(if character had any) can be replaced for <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(20);'>CCW</span>, as well as wings if model represented had them
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</div><br /> <br /> Marks of chaos<br /> Minor changes here, perhaps with some points tinkering and minor rule changes<br /> <div style="margin-top:5px; margin-bottom:10px;">
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Mark of Khorne- Rage and +1 Attack<br /> Nurgle +1 Toughness, and feel no pain (6+),all characters gain access to blight grenades and unit gains access to plague knives(except for terminators and cultists)<br /> Tzeentch, +1 to invurnerable saves, if no invulnerable save, unit gets 5++, unit gains  access to inferno bolts<br /> Slaanesh-+1 Initiative, access to sonic weapons on champion
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</div><br /> Psychic powers<br /> Leave them as is, remove randomness on Tzeentch's table and instead of forcing marked psykers to roll on related tables, if they take said powers, they cast them on 3+<br /> UNITS____<br /> <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(56);'>HQs</span><br /> Kharn the Betrayer<br /> Leave him as is, add 6+ <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(265);'>FNP</span>(will explain why in Khorne berzerkers entry)<br /> Ahriman<br /> LOWER THE POINTS COST!!!(170 seems reasonable)<br /> Also, let him roll on divination and +1 to casting psychic powers(meaning he casts tzeentch powers on 2+)<br /> Typhus<br /> Once again, lower the cost(170 as well)<br /> Lucius<br /> <div style="margin-top:5px; margin-bottom:10px;">
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Either drop him to 130 points and keep him as is, or 190 points, and have his sword as AP2 weapon
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</div><br /> Huron Blackheart<br /> No big changes here, perhaps make his Tyrant's claw S8<br /> Fabius Bile<br /> Keep him as is, and drop the points cost to 130<br /> Dark apostle<br /> 90 Points cost<br /> Lord<br /> Keep him as is<br /> (Abaddon is <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(787);'>LoW</span>, because 7th edition <img src="/s/i/a/baf5f2e54c6b17d5c5d39aecadfa1272.gif" border="0"> )<br /> ELITES<br /> Possessed<br /> <div style="margin-top:5px; margin-bottom:10px;">
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Drop the points cost to 23 PPM give them frag grenades and allow them to PICK mutations they want, rather than to roll
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</div><br /> Helbrute- 4 Attacks base, that's it<br /> Mutilators... oh i can't see how to save them, i would just retcon them, <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(84);'>lol</span>...<br /> Chosen.... Give them <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(644);'>VotLW</span> as standard, keep rules and stuff as is, and add one rule that champion can re-roll results on mutation table<br /> Chaos Terminators-<br /> <div style="margin-top:5px; margin-bottom:10px;">
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Lower the base cost to 30 PPM, and if one takes mark of chaos and <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(644);'>VotLW</span> upgrade, they become cult terminators, with following changes<br /> Khorne- WS5, +1 Attack, furious charge, 6+ <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(265);'>FNP</span><br /> Nurgle- Reroll toughness tests, and <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(265);'>FNP</span>, poisoned shots wound on 6<br /> Tzeentch- 4++, with rerolling invulnerable saves of 1<br /> Slaanesh- Counts as being equipped with Frag grenades when charging through cover,
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</div><br /> TROOPS<br /> Cultists- Leave them as is, i would give <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(102);'>MoT</span> price of 2 PPM, every other mark 1PPM<br /> CHAOS SPACE MARINES<br /> <div style="margin-top:5px; margin-bottom:10px;">
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11 PPM, and keep them as is, Veterans of the Long War upgrade, 4 PPM and gives fearless, and +1 attack and the champion tax (altough 5 pts)<br /> Marks of chaos, keep the price as is, and give them ability to change bolter for chainsword for free or buy extra chainsword for 2 PPM
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Lower the cost to 16 PPM, <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(644);'>VotLW</span> gives them for 3 PPM 6+ <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(265);'>FNP</span>(because they have butchers nails hammered into their skulls for 10.000 years, i think this seems pretty reasonable) and +1Attack<br /> Also, ability to take hidden power weapon or power fist for every 5 models in unit
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 17 PPM, keep the wargear, rules and options as is, and add the option to take heavy weapons as well and if they take <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(644);'>VotLW</span>, for 3 PPM they get to reroll their <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(265);'>FNP</span> rolls and toughness tests, also lower the price on champion(5PPM)<br /> Idea is to have them to be tough as hell objective holders and/or nigh impervious to small arms fire like in fluff
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15 PPM for keeping the rules as is, if they take <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(644);'>VotLW</span>, for 4 PPM unit gets Feel no Pain(because the way i see it, getting shot by plasma/torn up by chainaxes would only excite them more)
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</div><br /> Thousand sons<br /> <div style="margin-top:5px; margin-bottom:10px;">
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Since they are all veterans of the long war, i would include it in their points cost, keep their rules as standard, but exchange slow and purposeful for inability to run(so they can still overwatch)<br /> Lower the points cost to 20 PPM, and give them 4+ Invulnerable save, with ability to re-roll invulnerable saves of 1(like terminators, who i wanted to be rubric termies)
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</div><br /> FAST ATTACK<br /> Raptors<br /> <div style="margin-top:5px; margin-bottom:10px;">
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drop the cost to 13 PPM, give them ability to take hidden power weapons or power fists along with special weapon. If they take <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(644);'>VotLW</span> for 4 PPM, instead of fear tests, enemy has to take Morale check or fight at WS1(basically fear on steroids, so that only fearless units would be immune to this)
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</div><br /> Warp talons<br /> <div style="margin-top:5px; margin-bottom:10px;">
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 Drop the points cost, 18 PPM, and GIVE THEM THOSE DAMN FRAG GRENADES, and fearless <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(136);'>USR</span>
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</div><br /> Heldrake<br /> <div style="margin-top:5px; margin-bottom:10px;">
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Only thing that prevented <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(22);'>CSM</span> codex from being utter <img src="/s/i/a/7ae18ba11c7ba79f6898e876a4b8ba4a.gif" border="0"> , my only problem is that flamer is hull mounted, reverse it back to turret mounted and we're good
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</div><br /> Rhino<br /> <div style="margin-top:5px; margin-bottom:10px;">
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Keep the metal box as is(now you will think i am crazy because <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(22);'>CSM</span> need delivery method for their <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(19);'>CC</span> units. Wait for my idea for entry on <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(87);'>LRs</span> <img src="/s/i/a/6d3c0a908a3861135dfaebde91c0ecf6.gif" border="0"> it is the task of BIG METAL BOX to deliver loads of troops into <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(19);'>CC</span> through heavy firepower )
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</div><br /> Bikers:<br /> <div style="margin-top:5px; margin-bottom:10px;">
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drop the cost to 19 PPM, if they take <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(644);'>VotLW</span> for 3 PPM, they get to reroll dangerous terrain checks and shred on their <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(627);'>HoW</span> attacks
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</div><br /> Spawn<br /> <div style="margin-top:5px; margin-bottom:10px;">
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Leave them as is
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</div><br /> HEAVY SUPPORT<br /> Will update later<br /> <br /> LEGION TRAITS<br /> stay tuned, coming soon<br /> WARGEAR ARTEFACTS AND STUFF<br /> Stay tuned, coming soon<br /> I WILL QUIT HERE, TIRED <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(400);'>AS</span> HELL, WILL POST TOMMOROW]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:15:43]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ ThatSwellFella]]></author>
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				<title>fixing CSM codex</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Still the same issue, they need assault rhinos, it's a <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(19);'>cc</span> army that cannot get to <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(19);'>cc</span>, marks should be free, I refuse to pay points for things every other army gets for free, every chaos lord or variation of Chaos lord (named) should have eternal warrior, because... They are, this would offset the Chapter master benefit, marines get that, we get 1 less wound and <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(468);'>ew</span>, this would make chaos lords....scary.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, 22 Dec 2015 01:09:26]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Formosa]]></author>
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				<title>fixing CSM codex</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ I read through many of these suggestions, and I think they are very bad/unbalanced. Perhaps you need to think more about what these changes will actually, and what they are supposed to fix.<br /> <br /> ]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/674084/8334406.page</guid>
				<link>http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/674084/8334406.page</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, 22 Dec 2015 13:59:12]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ flodihn]]></author>
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			<item>
				<title>Re:fixing CSM codex</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ thanks for the feedback! i know they are assault army, that has no way of getting there, and i have an idea how to fix their land raiders... Either give them options for crusaders/redeemers or allow them to remove sponsons on regular <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(87);'>LR</span><br /> I was about to get to that later, but you caught me so....<br /> @formosa, i was considering marks to stay similar and give them LEGION traits for free, which i decided to do later(i can't just copypaste this, i made this overhaul in my notebook while i was in hospital... x) )<br /> ]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/674084/8334578.page</guid>
				<link>http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/674084/8334578.page</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, 22 Dec 2015 15:26:24]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ ThatSwellFella]]></author>
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			<item>
				<title>Re:fixing CSM codex</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ I'd like to see chosen get a massive boost, something more than just 1 attack.  Give them plus one <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(14);'>BS</span> and wounds.  ]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/674084/8335667.page</guid>
				<link>http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/674084/8335667.page</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, 22 Dec 2015 23:44:08]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ HoundsofDemos]]></author>
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