Latest posts for the thread "Proposed nerfs to various problem units"

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

jade_angel — GMT

Alright, there are a few units that seem to constantly attract complaints, mostly for being too strong. Here's a few stabs at bringing them back in line.

Ok, the consensus is that I got these entirely wrong. Fair enough, point well taken, and the suggestions are rescinded.

For the record, I do play both Tau and Eldar, and am generally a fan of all the units presented here (except the Stormsurge, which I haven't actually used yet, because holy crap that's an expensive model, and its mere existence seems to make everyone rage). I'm just tired of being told that Tau and Eldar are so strong that every other army is a dumpster-fire by comparison, and that both should just be banned outright, especially when almost all the rage is directed at 2-3 units from each codex. These were kinda overkill, in a major way, though I'll mention a few things - the Wraithguard change was essentially reverting to what they were in the previous codex (with the slight buff of +1 on the vehicle damage chart on a 6 to pen). The hope was to make the Wraithknight into a miniature Revenant Titan, but my critical mistake there was not asking what folks think of the Revenant Titan - too powerful at 900 points? Too weak? Strong but squishy?

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

Vineheart01 — GMT

theres a difference between a nerf and a complete utter destruction.

All of these changes are terrible. Improve costs while also cutting the effectiveness by a TON? Really?

Even the change to the WK is way, way too far. There is no limit to any super in the game other than points limitation, so why would they be limited? Points is the only thing i agree with, if not more.

You literally killed the riptide. Someone must have a sour taste for them. Lord of War option AND nerfbat galore. Every single thing you mentioned is way too far on its own, but stacked up? You dont nerf something to uselessness when it needs a nerf (not denying it does), you subtly change things.

Removing Stomp from the Stormsurge makes no sense when its legs are far, far larger than most tanks. It can clearly raise its legs high enough to stomp and it definitely has a lot of weight behind it. Stormsurge is not even a "problem unit" to begin with. Makes way more sense for it to have stomp than a Stompa does.

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

Tactical_Spam — GMT

Why is the Riptide still an MC? and why is it a LoW? It belongs in Heavy Support.

Why not just make it a 13/13/11 Walker that can Jetpack jump?

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

OneEyedALice — GMT

Wraithguard and Wraithknight are op? Seriously?

What's wrong with you, folks?

Riptide? Omfg, guys, are we really playing same game?

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

jade_angel — GMT

The usual complaint in response to making the Riptide a walker is that makes it impossible to kill in close combat. Of course, that could be worked around by making the nova reactor extraordinarily dangerous - like, say, fail on a 1 and take a penetrating hit at AP1; fail on a 2 and take a pen at AP-.

However, I'll stand by the change to the ion accelerator - it's basically the Ghostkeel's cyclic ion raker, which is a solid weapon, plus a nova-charge profile which is still pretty good. Though maybe the nova profile should stay S9 (or even go to S10?), if the others are losing AP2 - which they should because that's far and away the biggest complaint. However, firing 6 autocannon shots at 24" is still pretty dangerous - it'll wreck most vehicles or force saves on infantry or MCs. The HBC is still there if you need more range and/or volume. (I did slightly buff the nova profile - lost Gets Hot and gained Pinning).

You're right, I almost certainly did nerf the Riptide way too far. In part that's because I like the unit quite a bit, but am tired of it being banned for being OP! Most of the complaints center around being too available (hence LoW), too cheap, too durable (Hence T5/W4), too effective in CC or having too much long-range AP2. Probably raised the cost too much on the Wraithknight - I was trying to pattern this version after the Revenant Titan and Imperial Knight, but it's hard to make that work right.

I wouldn't have been inclined to remove Stomp, except for how much it gets complained about. Maybe it's Stomp itself that needs the fix here - for example, change it to "vehicles: take a glance on 2-5, take a pen at AP1 on 6; Infantry/etc: as is for 2-5, take an S10 AP1 Ignores Cover wound on a 6".

Windriders: Maybe too much nerfbat here too, inspired by the complaining. Maybe bring them back to their original cost, change the armor save to 4+, and leave the weapon option nerf?

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

Tactical_Spam — GMT

jade_angel wrote:
The usual complaint in response to making the Riptide a walker is that makes it impossible to kill in close combat.

I have killed a Riptide in Close Combat with a naked dreadnaught. I'm sure that same dreadnaught could tear a Front Armour 13 walker a new one easily.

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

jade_angel — GMT

True enough - Dreads, Penitent Engines, Helbrutes and the like would kill it quite dead indeed. It's vanguard vets, assault marines and their ilk that would have problems.

What about 11/11/11, but takes damage on the super-heavy chart so it doesn't auto-die to a single lascannon shot?

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

Bharring — GMT

For the Wraithguard, what about making them S&P instead? And tack on some 'Treats Battle brothers as AoC' or something?

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

Tactical_Spam — GMT

jade_angel wrote:
True enough - Dreads, Penitent Engines, Helbrutes and the like would kill it quite dead indeed. It's vanguard vets, assault marines and their ilk that would have problems.

What about 11/11/11, but takes damage on the super-heavy chart so it doesn't auto-die to a single lascannon shot?

Why would it be 11/11/11? It is walking armour, its front armour is 13.

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

Vineheart01 — GMT

people complain about stomp in any form. Its deadly as hell, but it should be. Something that damn huge should make even EW people become a pancake (remove from play bypasses EW). Its a super, they arent suppose to be "fair" theyre suppose to be deadly as hell, but a hefty investment in a single model that really hurts when it dies. WK is the only one that severely compromises that ideal, since its so damn cheap for being way tougher than a Stormsurge or pfft i'd almost say its as hard to kill as a fethin Biotitan lol. Almost, not quite.

Riptide is competent enough in melee to just not be an auto win. I still avoid combat with it like the plague except to smash a random vehicle thats near me or a lone termie i didnt kill. 7/10 of the time it gets in combat for me, it dies. Primarily because of how Sweeping Advance works...you scratch my paint and i ran away...oh you caught me...damn...
The IA does need a nerf, though not that far. The range is fine but its the same size as the Ion Cannon on the Hammerhead, so it should have an identical profile with the AP2 Nova test profile. The main problem is it removes the Nova Test danger, because it doesnt need it. HBC Riptides are definitely NOT broken because they effectively make themselves 3 wounds instead of 5 on average. IA doesnt have that risk...at all... and it should have it.

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

jade_angel — GMT

Bharring wrote:
For the Wraithguard, what about making them S&P instead? And tack on some 'Treats Battle brothers as AoC' or something?

I could see that. I personally favor reverting the weapons to their 6e profiles, though, and here's why: it used to be that Fire Dragons were the superior choice versus vehicles, while Wraithguard were superior against MCs. Now, Wraithguard are mostly just better always - Fire Dragons only have the advantages of price, melta bombs and battle focus (which sounds like a lot, but isn't as much as it seems, since D is effective against literally everything - it's even really dangerous to flyers/FMCs while snap-shooting, since one hit is all you'll need.)

But, treating Battle Brothers as Allies of Convenience makes some sense - that way they can't just deep strike in using an Archon/Haemonculus to guide them. I don't mind seeing them riding in Raiders, but as shooting units, a Wave Serpent does just fine. (And I think those are about correctly powered now. Yes, they're true tanks, but they're priced like true tanks, too.)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Incidentally - regarding the nova test danger on the IA: that's why I wanted to leave it as a cyclic ion raker with an AP2 nova profile. That way, if you want to splat a unit if deep-striking vanguard vets, say, you need to use the nova-charge. Otherwise, well, you can wreck vehicles and do pretty well against most other things, rather like the Ghostkeel, but with more resistance to Ignores Cover weapons, but less resistance to AP1/2.

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

Tactical_Spam — GMT

jade_angel wrote:
Bharring wrote:
For the Wraithguard, what about making them S&P instead? And tack on some 'Treats Battle brothers as AoC' or something?

I could see that. I personally favor reverting the weapons to their 6e profiles, though, and here's why: it used to be that Fire Dragons were the superior choice versus vehicles, while Wraithguard were superior against MCs. Now, Wraithguard are mostly just better always - Fire Dragons only have the advantages of price, melta bombs and battle focus (which sounds like a lot, but isn't as much as it seems, since D is effective against literally everything - it's even really dangerous to flyers/FMCs while snap-shooting, since one hit is all you'll need.)

But, treating Battle Brothers as Allies of Convenience makes some sense - that way they can't just deep strike in using an Archon/Haemonculus to guide them. I don't mind seeing them riding in Raiders, but as shooting units, a Wave Serpent does just fine. (And I think those are about correctly powered now. Yes, they're true tanks, but they're priced like true tanks, too.)

SaP makes loads of sense, but AoC doesn't. A WWP is a thing Craftworlders should have without allies. Its not like Dark Eldar are really an issue anyway.

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

Bharring — GMT

Outside DE allies, a big drawback of Wraithguard is that they are slow, but they hit like a truck when they get into range. DE allies make that drawback moot.

DE as a force don't need a nerf, but Wraithguard + DE does.

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

Imateria — GMT

I approve of the changes to Eldar here, maybe lower the cost of the Windriders back to their current and raise the save to a 4+. Personally I'd also change the Scatter Laser to S5 as well. For the Wraithknight I'd change the Suncannon S8 from it's current S6, gives people a reason not to take the D Cannons and still be dangerous. I'd also make it so that you can you exchange just the Suncannon for a single D cannon for 50pts and the same with the Scattershield.

Is their a reason that the Riptides armour gets worse in close combat? At present that makes absolutely no sense at all.

Re:Proposed nerfs to various problem units

Peregrine — GMT

You sure spend a lot of words on saying "nova charge: on a 1 or a 2 the model is removed as a casualty". Why even pretend that you're trying to make legitimate units instead of removing the Riptide from the game?

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

Vineheart01 — GMT

Imateria wrote:

Is their a reason that the Riptides armour gets worse in close combat? At present that makes absolutely no sense at all.

Basically he wants the Riptide to no longer exist. Hence the 1000 nerfs that affect literally every aspect of the unit including ones its already lousy at (melee).

If ANY unit were to have a lower armor save in melee, it would be anything with Slow and Purposeful. Vehicles are hit in the rear because its assumed their sluggish reaction lets you hit a weak point easier. MCs, Walkers (that arent immobilized), or just random units are too fast to let you be THAT accurate to hit the tiny gap between heavy armor plates just right to bypass the armor.

Kinda like how peregrine summed it up. Just remove it from the game rather than try to make a legitimate unit.

Even if you left it as is and moved it to LoW it would be suffering and probably vanish. Why? Tournaments dont allow multiple LoW options typically, even in formations. Its nowhere near LoW level of powerful.

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

Bharring — GMT

Lousy at CC is relative.

Can it kill its points worth of Thunderwolves? Probably not.

But how do bully units like ASM fare against it?

What makes it lousy at CC is that it wipes the floor with most units at shooting. Not any particular vulnerability to CC. Which isn't what I'd call lousy.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The nerfs do seem a bit stiff.

Loss of Smash seems right. But its WS is how the rest is signified.

The d3 wounds on failed Novas are a bit much. Leave it at 1, assuming it has gone down to W4. It also doesn't need the VP rule, assuming its now a LoW for increased points.

Re:Proposed nerfs to various problem units

WarbossDakka — GMT

Peregrine wrote:
You sure spend a lot of words on saying "nova charge: on a 1 or a 2 the model is removed as a casualty". Why even pretend that you're trying to make legitimate units instead of removing the Riptide from the game?

How about we just remove anything taller than a dreadnought while we're at it?

Re:Proposed nerfs to various problem units

danny1995 — GMT

WarbossDakka wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
You sure spend a lot of words on saying "nova charge: on a 1 or a 2 the model is removed as a casualty". Why even pretend that you're trying to make legitimate units instead of removing the Riptide from the game?

How about we just remove anything taller than a dreadnought while we're at it?

And anything with a base bigger than 50mm

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

chalkobob — GMT

Bharring wrote:

The d3 wounds on failed Novas are a bit much.

Its not just d3 wounds. Its d3 strength 10 wounds on a unit that is now only toughness 5... In other words D3 chances at instant death with only a 5++ save to prevent it since you don't get FnP from instant kill attacks. Assuming you only roll 1 for the d3 roll, that's still a 55.56% chance of killing the riptide outright!

A 250 point lord of war with 4 toughness 5 wounds, who's main weapons are AP 4 base (unless you crazily risk instant death that awards opponents additional VP's on the Nova charge), who dies to a stiff breeze in combat?! You're kidding right? I don't know anyone who wouldn't agree the riptide is overpowered, but these changes would make it the worst unit in the game by a long margin. Surely, you can't be serious... Please, no Airplane! references.

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

jade_angel — GMT

Ok, yeah, I did overkill the heck out of that nerf. Might even say I doubled it out...

So, what's more reasonable here? My problem with dropping the save to a 3+ is that if you're operating up close, you're too likely to fail your saves against the pile of bolter/lasgun-class hits you'll be taking. But, with a 2+, it's too hard to kill at a distance. As a thought, that's mitigated a lot if you're forced to stay within 36".

So, leave the nova reactor as it presently stands, remove Gets Hot from the HBC, change the ion accelerator to the cyclic ion raker, but with an S9 AP2 Ordnance 1 large blast if nova-charged... Reduce it to T5, like the Ghostkeel, perhaps?

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

arthorn — GMT

I am not going to stand here say that the riptide is not good. Its awesome and nice unit, one of more appealing units of the tau army(who doesnt want a big ass suit jumping arround, same reason as people still love land raiders, helldrakes and what not.) Its base costs are already 180 and with decent upgrades it goes fast to the 210+. So you are going to make it unrationally more expensive and make it do a lot less and given worse rules.

For me this change doesn't make sense. By even looking at your rules it looks like you just thought: what is the riptide good at? Nerf him completely into the ground.
I can't find any logic on what you base your nerfs.

Just wondering if you are a tau player?

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

Frozocrone — GMT

Riptide needs to be as it is on the Codex, with IA costing more and EWO costing more. Maybe FnP too.

Also R-Wing should stay in Apoc.

The problem with the Riptide is that the Nova should do a few wounds making it easier to kill, but the IA completely mitigates the need to Nova.

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

Inevitable_Faith — GMT

The nerfs to the Eldar jetbikes took things way too far. I think for starters just drop them back down to only getting 1 special weapon per 3 bikes and see how that goes. They will never see use in our fast attack slot and losing the 3+ save on top of a points hike makes them laughable. I still hold to the 1 special per 3 of the 6th edition codex and no one I fight complains that my jetbikes are OP. Maybe drop the RoF on the scatter laser to 3 shots instead of 4 aswell. It then has the range over the shuriken but nothing else. The bike isn't the issue after all, the spammable long range S6 is.

Wraithknight nerfs are too much aswell. Just do a points hike and leave it be. Not sure what the sweet spot would be but leaving his stats alone and just upping point cost would be fine I think. 100 points for 2 wraithcannons is a joke btw, they're good but not that good.

Wraithguard are broken thanks to DE, not necessarily due to their own rules. D is scary for sure but unless it's on the scythe it's only 5 shots and easily kited once you pop the transport. The scythes as you suggest nerfing them would never be taken, especially at their current point cost.

I don't mean to say that Eldar don't have some nasty things, undercosted knight and too many heavy weapons on bikes is certainly something that should be addressed but I think they can be handled gently to find balance. Eldar still do need firepower after all cause they don't have the durability that other armies have.

Step one would be to make sure all armies are in 7th edition (and to redo the early 7th edition books to match the post-necron books, DE, BA, Orks all need new 7th books) then to evaluate what is OP based on that. Quite frankly if you ask a CSM player what is OP and needs a nerf he's liable to tell you every army in the game is OP and undercosted. Especially comparing himself to his SM brothers. Lets all be on the same page (power philosophy within our codex) before we start suggesting nerfing units down to the dirt.

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

jade_angel — GMT

Ok, more reasonably here - I think Inevitable_Faith has it about right on the jetbikes. I never got too many complaints about them in 6e, except for the assault-phase move. I've heard a few suggestions about the scatter laser itself - I like the notion of dropping it down to S5. That would make the starcannon and shuriken cannon more attractive options on the platforms that can choose between them.

As for the Wraithknight - I tried to make it into a mini-Revenant Titan, because of all the gripes about it being a GC. Then again, I didn't ask what the general opinion of the Revenant Titan is, and whether folks think it's worth 900 points. Mea maxima culpa.

The scythe suggestion, by the way, was pretty much the same profile they had in 6e, plus a slight buff. That said, I rarely used the D-scythe in 6e, so you probably have a good point about that being too weak. I still prefer the Wraithcannon at S10 instead of D, though, because of the internal balance issue. Previously, Fire Dragons were better against vehicles, Wraithguard were better against MCs. Now, Wraithguard are mostly better all the time, although more expensive. Since both units are vying for an Elite slot, I'd rather have it be a hard choice, rather than "one is just plain always better, if you can afford it at all".

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

Inevitable_Faith — GMT

jade_angel wrote:
Ok, more reasonably here - I think Inevitable_Faith has it about right on the jetbikes. I never got too many complaints about them in 6e, except for the assault-phase move. I've heard a few suggestions about the scatter laser itself - I like the notion of dropping it down to S5. That would make the starcannon and shuriken cannon more attractive options on the platforms that can choose between them.

As for the Wraithknight - I tried to make it into a mini-Revenant Titan, because of all the gripes about it being a GC. Then again, I didn't ask what the general opinion of the Revenant Titan is, and whether folks think it's worth 900 points. Mea maxima culpa.

The scythe suggestion, by the way, was pretty much the same profile they had in 6e, plus a slight buff. That said, I rarely used the D-scythe in 6e, so you probably have a good point about that being too weak. I still prefer the Wraithcannon at S10 instead of D, though, because of the internal balance issue. Previously, Fire Dragons were better against vehicles, Wraithguard were better against MCs. Now, Wraithguard are mostly better all the time, although more expensive. Since both units are vying for an Elite slot, I'd rather have it be a hard choice, rather than "one is just plain always better, if you can afford it at all".

S5 scatter laser also sounds reasonable. Still glances rhinos to death but that's about it.

As for the revenant Titan I can't say much about it as I've never used one. My gripes concerning turning a Wraithknight into a vehicle is that it would then have all the rules associated with vehicles that make vehicles so much worse than MC currently. Now that is a problem with vehicle vs MC rules now. Sadly due to the vehicle damage table and being able to be glanced to death with no saves normally allowed (barring cover and even MC have an easier time getting cover saves) vehicles are so much more fragile and prone to becoming useless even if they don't get destroyed. Now would it be reasonable to make the WK a MC instead of a GC? Perhaps, maybe up the scattershield to a 4++ instead of a 5++ to compensate vs anything AP3 or better and leave his points cost alone then. Ultimately though if you wanted to put WK as a vehicle I'd be ok with it if the Riptide, Ghostkeel, Stormsurge and Dreadknight all become vehicles as well. I find the Riptide with a 2+ and JSJ is downright obnoxious to kill and has more firepower (Wraithcannons hit very hard but they are on a BS4 platform and only two shots, hurts MC and vehicles but infantry laugh at them) with more versatility than a WK, and coupled with some markerlights Riptides can have amazing BS and ignores cover, two things the WK can't get short of maybe guide cast on one.

I totally understand where you're coming from concerning fire dragons and wraithguard. Perhaps WG change to S10 AP1 and modify the distort rule to instead cause 2 wounds on a to wound roll of 6? That would up their danger against MC while toning them down against vehicles. With assured destruction Fire dragons would then still be kings of anti-vehicle. As for the scythe from 6E I never used it, I felt it was way too expensive for what it offered. Maybe S6 AP2 with the distort rule I mentioned above causing 2 wounds on a 6? But ultimately it still comes down to they need to lose their DE super-friends before we could start to try and internally balance them.

I can appreciate the discussion about how to balance units, it's especially fun for those who enjoy theorycrafting and a good discussion. Unfortunately were also stuck with GW running around saying "My house my rules" to everyone. As long as GW holds those cards they're going to make anything they want to sell lots of either a super-amazing unit or force it onto a formation as a tax. They care less about balance than they do about sales figures unfortunately and it's sadly us poor players who have to bear the brunt of the pain from that. As both an Eldar and TAu player I'm sure you can appreciate the frustration at the blatant racism you must receive (mostly over the internet) that "your army is an OP hunk of cheese and so you are automatically some tryhard WAAC neckbeard gakhead for playing that army". It gets kind of disheartening after a while to be hated for nothing that's your own fault, we didn't write the codex after all.

Re:Proposed nerfs to various problem units

jade_angel — GMT

As a superheavy walker (like the Imperial Knight), the Revenant (and proposed Wraithknight) wouldn't be subject to one-shot destruction except by D weapons. Also, it'd still have the Eldar Titan holo-field, which forces opponents to roll a d6 for each successful hit, with a 4+ still counting as a hit. This works even in melee, as a sort of super-invuln save (because it can stop a D hit before it ever rolls to damage), and it stacks with an actual invuln or cover save. (Which the WK would still have from its scattershield, and the RT doesn't have, barring psyker shenanigans). 12/1/2/10 is the same armor setup as the Revenant, by the way, but that has 9HP and the new "true Titan" rules that give some resistance to Haywire and to melee attacks. (But in exchange the WK would stay better in close combat as it currently is)

I thought about respinning the various Tau suits to be walkers, too, but every time that idea gets mooted, it seems to get shot down as either too weak, too strong or both at once. Both at once sounds weird, but then again "can't scratch it in melee because AV13" and "dies in one hit to a brightlance, when you get unlucky" already apply to the Ironclad Dreadnought. Superheavy walker status mitigates a lot of this, but hauls in all the superheavy ick, like shooting at multiple targets, Stomp and so forth. I figured the WK was a prime target for that treatment because 1, it's a GC already, 2, the Revenant Titan exists, and it's more or less a bigger Wraithknight (that's a whole lot worse in CC) and 3, the Imperial Knight already exists and is a decent point of comparison.

That said, while there hasn't been a superheavy walker with less than 6HP so far, why couldn't there be? The Stormsurge would probably be fine as a SHW. Folks have already said that the Orkanaughts should be SHWs, and I mostly agree. What about the Riptide and Ghostkeel? Would the 12" move and multitargeting be gamebreaking (they also lose Overwatch, unless you special-rule it back in)? Stomp is mean, but like most Tau things, they stink on ice in CC, and you could always special-rule it out.

As for the Wraithguard weapons, I started with the 6e profiles for them, right down to the Distort rule, but buffed Distort so that a 6 to pen gets +1 on the damage chart (because otherwise "6 to pen always pens" is pointless on an S10 gun). I think that's still sensible, though maybe 2W is better than ID. ID feels awfully cheap if an expensive monster or special character gets gibbed that way, after all.

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

Inevitable_Faith — GMT

Ah ok now I see where your design philosophy came from, that really does put things into perspective.

I'm aware of the big Tau MC debate, that's been going on since the Riptide hit shelves. It's a shame cause it leaves dreadnaughts in an awkward place and it's served to further drive a wedge between the vehicle and MC rules being so asymmetrical.

For WG weapons having ID I figured that might be a bit much. This is simply my opinion but I feel that ID should be a special rule reserved for special characters or HQ's who buy an artifact from their codex. For example, last night I used Illic Nightspear in my match (for the first time since I just finished painting him, I was very happy with his performance btw). He helped pop a few good targets but the icing on the cake was rolling a 6 and getting that ID snipe off on a hive tyrant camping an objective I had no units nearby to contest with. It was one of those exciting "dice gods loved me" moments on a single shot weapon. Those are the moments I feel ID should be saved for, having entire units of troopers walking around with ID weapons feels a bit cheeky to me, even if they need a 6 to get it. Having said that WG with S10 AP1 is mostly ID against the majority of things anyways.

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

jade_angel — GMT

They had ID-on-6 in 6e, and I had them turn in some seriously mean results in a few games, like vaporizing a Tyrannofex or a Bloodthirster in one shot, or toasting a Hive Tyrant on Overwatch. That said, ID Just Bugs Me in a lot of ways - it really sucks to put all those points into one shiny guy just to have him get zorched by one little dweeby shot. Ranged ID is doubly frustrating. (Though I'll admit that Railgunning a Malanthrope from across the table is oddly satisfying, because it instantly throws that whole flank into disarray, but I digress)

So yeah, 6 to wound is 2W is more reasonable, with the same benefits I stated for vehicles.

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

Inevitable_Faith — GMT

I think we may be on to something. Should just petition GW to let us write the rules from now on lol

But on a serious note how do you think the game would fare if the proposed rules for a codex were given to the community and then the community through discussion and online polls votes how the unit is adjusted before final printing? Do you think the internet could collaborate sufficiently to write solid rules?

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

Slayer le boucher — GMT

My problem with Stomp is that on a 6, you take the model off the table, no invul save nothing.

When you see numerous fluff bits of Deathwing termies getting stomped into the ground by a Titan and the guy coming out of the ground with merly cracks in his armor, because the force field protected him, its fething hilarious.

Stomps should not be 6=instant death, extra wounds?, i'm ok with that, some kind of malus to your movement/init?, yeah why not makes sens.

Its even worse when a Surge stomps a dread or a Soul grinder..., i mean how the feth does it stomp somthing that comes to your hip level or more?...

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

Martel732 — GMT

Stomp is stupid and should be taken out of the game so GMC and super heavies can be tarpitted like everything else. If you don't want them tarpitted, buy some screening units like everyone else.

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

krodarklorr — GMT

Martel732 wrote:
Stomp is stupid and should be taken out of the game so GMC and super heavies can be tarpitted like everything else. If you don't want them tarpitted, buy some screening units like everyone else.

Or at the very least, make it so that you can shoot at GCs/SHVs while they're in combat. And make Stomps do S10 AP1 hits on a 6, not instantly remove from play.

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

jade_angel — GMT

I'd agree with both of those suggestions, actually. Stomp is way too strong (though a lot of tarpits can potentially shrug off the S6 AP4 hits), but nerfing the 6 down to S10 AP1, or even D, would help a lot. (After all, that Terminator just might shrug off a D hit. Not super-likely, but possible.)

If folks are bugged by the shooting-into-CC thing, you could even add something like "for each 1 rolled To Hit, resolve a Snap Shot with the same profile against a randomly chosen unit locked in the same combat", though I think that's a lot of extra mildew for not much benefit.

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

Mojo1jojo — GMT

The best way to fix riptides and WK's are to either make most walkers monstrous creatures or make tau and eldar MC's walkers with armor values.
Imagine how many people would drop riptides and WK's if they could be one shooted like ork and SM walkers

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

Martel732 — GMT

Even easier: make them cost what they are worth. Done. WK is 450 EASY.

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

jade_angel — GMT

I'd argue 400, but it's definitely far too cheap as it currently is - barely more expensive than its old MC incarnation, which was already too cheap (though not by as much). I definitely wouldn't take one at 600 points, probably not at 500, while at 295 it's almost an auto-include. Seems to me the right price is somewhere in that range.

However, the flipside of that is, when you have a 400 point unit, don't be surprised when a 150 point unit cannot kill it in a single shooting phase.

I think that GCs are too hard to kill right now and non-superheavy walkers are way too easy outside of melee, while on the other hand, Stomp is kinda stupid. So there's a lot to tweak with all of them.

As for the Riptide, I think the biggest things that need to go are the combination of a 72" S8 AP2 large blast and Interceptor. Just making the IA more expensive, the HBC less dangerous to use, and reducing the range on the IA (down to 36" at most, probably 24") will help a lot. Shorter range will force it to play up close, where plasma guns, meltaguns, grav guns and thunder hammers can reach it, and it can't single-handedly shut down deep striking across the whole table.

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

Bharring — GMT

Just the Riptide and WK, or the Stormsurge and Wraithlord too? What about the Dreadknight?

The Wraithlord really should remain an MC, but I could see all the rest changing.

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

MagicJuggler — GMT

Regarding Stomp:

1) Make it so that Stomp Attacks can only be placed within 2" of the GMC/SHV making the Stomp, rather than 2" away from any previous stomp. Without fancy FAQs or houserulings, a Stomp can attack models practically on the other side of the map.

2) Make it an attack with its own strength/profile/etc, where you roll to-hit against every model underneath the template. No "Stomp Damage Results" or anything silly like that.

3) Allow a limited degree of non-super models to have weaker versions of Stomp. Stuff like the Defiler, or even the Sentinel (a simple S4 AP - stomp).

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

NorseSig — GMT

I think stomp should be str10 ap1 instead of remove from play. That change alone would make the rule fair imo.

As far as the stormsurge and WK they should just be SHV instead of GMC.

Even after those changes the WK should be 400pts. Leaving all rules as is, WKs should be about 425pts imo. GMCs are much more resilient than a SHV.

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

Mojo1jojo — GMT

NorseSig wrote:
I think stomp should be str10 ap1 instead of remove from play. That change alone would make the rule fair imo.

As far as the stormsurge and WK they should just be SHV instead of GMC.

Even after those changes the WK should be 400pts. Leaving all rules as is, WKs should be about 425pts imo. GMCs are much more resilient than a SHV.

agreed, i am not a fan of any remove from play rules, brings back the old shiver I got when Space Wolves spanned the old Jaws of the Wolf Lord

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

oldzoggy — GMT

I am all for a half yearly errata (set on a known date) that rebalances everything. fixing point cost bringing attacks and wargear in line etc.

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

jade_angel — GMT

Now that's a heck of an idea, right there. That'd definitely be good for fixing up things that are easy to patch (like wrong costs, BA/SW/GK dreads lagging behind SM/DA ones, etc), or things that just kinda didn't work.

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

Bharring — GMT

There have been a lot of attempts at a more living rules set. Its certainly possible. But the only actual success seems to be ITC.

Who decides what changes happen? What do you do when the community doesn't reach consensus? Where/how is it maintained.

It would be wonderful. But it won't happen. The company (GW) is the only entity equipped to do it. And they decided not to.

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

Inevitable_Faith — GMT

oldzoggy wrote:
I am all for a half yearly errata (set on a known date) that rebalances everything. fixing point cost bringing attacks and wargear in line etc.

To expand on this I'd prefer to see codexes be done away with and GW just does free online dataslates you can download and/or print for every unit. Make a general dataslate that covers all of your specific army-wide special rules and abilities too. Then make a companion/army-builder app that automatically updates when you open it so theoretically everyone will always have the most up to date dataslates at all times on their smart-phone or tablet. This way they can update an army any time they want to correct mistakes in spelling, misquoted rules, adjust points, update broken rules so they work as intended and in general stay on top of balancing the game. With this system as long as they took it seriously we wouldn't have armie like CSM languishing with a gak codex for years and years. Armies like DE,BA and Orks. even though they are technically 7th edition, could get updates to bring them up to the new 7.5 power curve (post-necron). Overall it gives the rules-writing team the ability to adjust anything in the game as often as needed to keep the rules as balanced and up-to-date as possible.

Personally I much prefer the feel of a hardcover printed book in my hands, looking through it is very enjoyable to me unless I'm looking through my CSM book. Having said that I would gladly do away with having army books if it meant units and rules could get balanced as often as necessary so that one day hopefully every unit/psychic power/piece of wargear could be worthwhile and fun for their respective armies to play with. It'd also help with the barrier of entry cost, the start collecting boxes are amazing IMO but are only half the battle, rules are still crazy expensive to get and the cost of a codex has scared away more than a few prospective players to my group, especially since they hear the codex gets updated and invalidates the old one after a few years (which isn't too bad, 60$ Canadian lasting 2-3 years, but it still does spook people cause all they hear is 60$ paper weight once the new one comes out).

Just my opinion on how things might be able to work a lot better, what do you guys think? Other than GW not keeping up to date on this and never updating stuff or correcting things is there any other problems that could arise?

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

jade_angel — GMT

In my perfect, blue-sky world, I'd like to see GW publish PDF dataslates and Battlescribe data for all the 40k forces, updated on the fly, perhaps with an alpha/beta/release candidate tag on experimental rules. (Forge World already kinda does that...) Then, they could publish hardback bound fluff-and-art codices that include the current versions of the dataslates at the time of publication.

Tag them with version numbers, too - edition.major_revision.erratum level. So, say, 7.0.0 for most 7e codices except those that have gotten a bunch of weirdness after the fact (Space Marines, say).

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

Inevitable_Faith — GMT

Beyond the digital dataslate releases for rules I'd love to see them release campaigns. Now Mont'ka and the blood angels/nids books were cool but I do not own any of the armies in those series so the campaigns really didn't appeal to me as a player. I'd like to see them release campaign books with new missions and new special rules like every 2 months maybe? Each book follows a main story but it's inclusive to ALL factions so anyone with any army can participate in it and enjoy it. The new one coming out is Daemons and space wolves, two more armies I don't have so I'll likely not get a chance to enjoy those campaign books to their fullest either. I'd definitely buy campaign books every two months if it allowed me new ways to play with my existing armies and new missions.

I love maelstrom mission but some of the guys I play with prefer eternal war and so I'm always stuck accommodating them to play eternal war. Frankly I'm getting really sick of eternal war missions and I really don't like their "blow the gak out of an opponent for 4 turns then rush an objective at turn 5" nature. Atleast with new missions from campaign books it'd be a breakup from the eternal war monotony.

essentially GW can shift their focus from tyring to sell hard-bound codices and instead sell mission packs and campaign story stuff that every army could enjoy.

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

ionusx — GMT

i really feel that the best solution to the wraithknight is just to make it a limit of one no squadrons per army no exceptions or formations workarounds unless you take something sub optimal as a tax perhaps a warlock as a warlord or you cant take dire avengers in your army. with that restriction being lifted in apocalypse much like how space marines cant take multiple relic vehicles without adhering to relics of the armoury.

this is meant basically to avoid it being spammed which is its true strength the points is insane and forcing sub-optimal picks for the HQ is one of the few ways to get it troops would be another, lock the multiples up

the stormsurge's fix is fairly simple actually, in fact you can do it with the riptide while your on the operating table, you dont even change their status as MC's. you nullify farsight enclaves. make it clear that the supplement isnt table legal anymore and is being dropped. the farsight enclave is the thing that gives the tau a lot of their strength. the ability to screen with crisis suits and support with broadsides while giving your surges and tides and keel's ridiculous systems and upgrades exclusive to the supplement as well as forgoing the need for weak things like pathfinders and fire warriors is brutal, its utterly brutal. crisis suits are some of the best troops choices in the whole game trouncing pretty much everything out there currently. you take away the suits ability to just be brought in bulk ignoring their flaws that they would otherwise have to exist in using the base codex and the tau are actually not that scary, dare i say it a fair fight.

you want your montka and kauyan fine. but you cant have farsight anymore, his book was a crutch for your army to hobble on in a different age, its time to put him down

from here we can look at de-escalating a number of other units like the centurion and the sternguard, we can start by lowering the number of attacks grav weapons get, and increasing the points on sternguard veterans, perhaps take away their ability to buy a drop pod, suicide squad sternguard are the reason we have the cancer that is suicide veterans and wolf guard in other armies. they started this mess now its time to make it right have the teacher be corrected first and the rest will slowly fall in line

after that we can turn to the tyranids and in their next update nullify shield of baal leviathan, if they do a good job that is we shouldnt have leviathan be around anymore, so much flying hive tyrant its disgusting

finally bikes, white scars, ravenwing, eldar jetbikes all need a nerf somewhere. i wish there was an easy way to do it. im think the best would be just a general price jack on bike like upgrades to commanders. make them very expensive like 40+ points expensive. bikes have all but slain the purpose to jet or jump infantry in armies that have the choice of the two. the point where nobody takes assault marines or vet vanguard unless there in a ridiculous formation, or there taken as flamer pact mules. makig the HQ pay out the arm for his bike would make you look to other things to get them across the table and that means a lot less of an emphasis on bikes. essentially we balance the bike not out of fluff but strictly to preserve game balance

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

jade_angel — GMT

The catch on Eldar bikes is, they're not being made troops by an HQ upgrade - they just are troops, and always were (except Shining Spears/Warlocks, but nobody's really bitching about them). Probably changing the heavy weapons to 1 in 3 like they were in 6th would be fine, though maybe forbid scatter lasers on bikes, not sure. In 6th, you couldn't have scatbikes at all - shuriken cannons were the only heavy weapon upgrade.

Proposed nerfs to various problem units

chalkobob — GMT

ionusx wrote:

the stormsurge's fix is fairly simple actually, in fact you can do it with the riptide while your on the operating table, you dont even change their status as MC's. you nullify farsight enclaves. make it clear that the supplement isnt table legal anymore and is being dropped. the farsight enclave is the thing that gives the tau a lot of their strength. the ability to screen with crisis suits and support with broadsides while giving your surges and tides and keel's ridiculous systems and upgrades exclusive to the supplement as well as forgoing the need for weak things like pathfinders and fire warriors is brutal, its utterly brutal. crisis suits are some of the best troops choices in the whole game trouncing pretty much everything out there currently. you take away the suits ability to just be brought in bulk ignoring their flaws that they would otherwise have to exist in using the base codex and the tau are actually not that scary, dare i say it a fair fight.

you want your montka and kauyan fine. but you cant have farsight anymore, his book was a crutch for your army to hobble on in a different age, its time to put him down

Ok, you seem to be unaware of a few things about the new Tau. For one, the Mont'ka supplement allows crisis suits to be taken as troops as well, even listing the unique signature systems of the old Farsight enclave supplement, some argue replacing the farsight enclave (but thats an argument for YMDC). Second, since the introduction of formations Tau players can take legal bound lists without the weak units like fire warriors, pathfinders and kroot etc already. Take for instance a list that I've seen pop up in the army list section; 1 riptide wing-which is 3 squadrons of riptides (so up to 9 riptides) that get plus one BS if firing at the same unit as one of the other riptides squadrons in the formation, gets to re-roll nova reactor rolls if within 6" of another riptide squadron, and once per game gets to fire all of their weapons twice if they remain stationary that turn! Then they team this up with the drone net vx1-0- which is 4 or more squadrons of drones (so potentially infinite drones) that get plus one BS so long as two or more squadrons remain in play, and interceptor (which can now be used on the drones BS 3 markerlights to buff the riptides intercepting fire), outflank, precision shots, split fire and jink (which the drones can combine with going to ground for a 3+ cover save in the open)! This list is a completely bound list, and any Tau player can field this as regular Tau Empire or Farsight Enclave. There's also crisis heavy formations too that lack fire warriors or other traditional troops if that's what you want to take instead. Banning the old Farsight supplement won't change this.

Also FYI the old Farsight supplement doesn't give stormsurge's or ghostkeel's any unique equipment or upgrades, just the riptides get this and only one per army.