<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? BA assault marines and formations.
Heavily armoured flying assault transport with strong firepower = Stormfang does it better than the Stormraven.
Killy, choppy, raging dreadnought = Murderfang is released. Debatable if it is better than DC dreadnought - situational.
Killy raging berzerkers = The new Wulfen do it miles better than the Death company.


Just thought I would get people's views on the above. Do you think GW are intentionally looking at units unique to Blood Angels and then just copying the idea behind them and giving them to another army? Ok, I know Wulfen have been around before, but their new incarnation puts them miles ahead of the Death Company. Ravenguard are and should be geared towards stealth, infiltration and also jump packs, but Blood Angels used to be about assault marines, but I now feel like they have lost their identity and focus. The army just feels like a weaker version of all the other marine books. At least Dark Angels and Space Wolves have units unique to them and strong in their own right. What the Blood Angels have is copied and then the copy is made better.

Now just waiting for Wolves or Vanilla marines to get a librarian dreadnought to take away the last shred of uniqueness that Blood Angels had....
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8422614.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8422614.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
I will however, retract this statement if BA get a release that is balanced (ie not 7.5 edition).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8422630.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8422630.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? BA without adding several new models. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8422754.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8422754.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? GW has been making each SM codex copy eachother for a long time now.

Before the release of the new SM and DA codexes, BAs basically stole Deathwing from Dark Angels (and still technically do) with their Archangels Detachment, made up almost entirely of terminators and Dreadnoughts.

White Scars, for 2 editions before 7th, basically stole the spotlight from Ravenwing for being "the" SM Biker army. Wolf Guard made it so that you can field any sort of SM army with any weird equipment legally with the CotGW detachment. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8422758.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8422758.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8422770.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8422770.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
 Furyou Miko wrote:
Not to mention the stuff the Blood Angels keep stealing from the Sororitas.... (heavy flamer tacs, hand flamer asm, eviscerators, etc...)


From Slaphead's profile pic, it looks like they stole their barber too.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8422805.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8422805.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? GW's game designers have a very limited pool of ideas to draw from. The more marine chapters they add with special rules, the less unique the rest get. Not that they really care mind you. GW is more than happy to take everything your army does and give it to the new hotness to sell models.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8422806.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8422806.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
But, I want to mention that Archangels are not Deathwing any more than Strike Force Ultra is. They're Codex Compliant 1st Company, absolutely no different than Ultramarines 1st, Raven Guard 1st, Novemarine 1st and so on and so forth.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8422846.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8422846.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
Rending, Eternal Warrior, and Instant Death used to be Eldar rules (the Rending rule name was invented for Tyranids, but Eldar had the mechanics an entire edition earlier).

Things get stolen from one army and added to another. Live with it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8422877.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8422877.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
 SharkoutofWata wrote:
If another Chapter gets Overcharged Engines, then yes, I will shout from the top of the largest soapbox that they are stealing everything from Blood Angels. They do need a good balancing, and giving a Demi Company both the Red Thirst and Obj Sec is a good start.

But, I want to mention that Archangels are not Deathwing any more than Strike Force Ultra is. They're Codex Compliant 1st Company, absolutely no different than Ultramarines 1st, Raven Guard 1st, Novemarine 1st and so on and so forth.


That's due to erosion of the fluff. Previously Dark Angels were the only ones who even had enough Terminator Armor to equip their entire first company; other first companies had Terminators but neither enough to deploy the entire company in them nor would commit them all to an offensive.

Also I meant they stole it from the Dark Angels in that now the Dark Angels' Deathwing Formations and Detachments can't come in on the first turn, so fielding a pure deathwing force is now either ridiculously hard (with Dreadpods) or outright impossible.

In fact, Strikeforce Ultra and 1st Company Taskforce further stole the wind from the DAs, since the former can basically perform the old version of Deathwing Assault while the latter has the Fear and Fearlessness that use to be inherent in Deathwing. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8422926.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8422926.page GMT Re:Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? Infantry hordes? Tyranids and Orcs.
Gunline? Tau.
And now, with the most recent Space Marine codex said Mary Sue smurfs now do tanks AND gunline better than us.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8422982.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8422982.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? devs are not that important for GW they make the models first then paint them and only after that do they tell the rules dept to write some fluff and rules.

They can't make rules for units with no models anymore since chapter house trial went against GW.

So all they can do is tweek rules for existing units must be very frustrating.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8423186.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8423186.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? BA is still real to me Dammit!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8423245.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8423245.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
 Slaphead wrote:
Decent jump pack based army = Ravenguard do it better than any of the BA assault marines and formations.
Heavily armoured flying assault transport with strong firepower = Stormfang does it better than the Stormraven.
Killy, choppy, raging dreadnought = Murderfang is released. Debatable if it is better than DC dreadnought - situational.
Killy raging berzerkers = The new Wulfen do it miles better than the Death company.


Just thought I would get people's views on the above. Do you think GW are intentionally looking at units unique to Blood Angels and then just copying the idea behind them and giving them to another army? Ok, I know Wulfen have been around before, but their new incarnation puts them miles ahead of the Death Company. Ravenguard are and should be geared towards stealth, infiltration and also jump packs, but Blood Angels used to be about assault marines, but I now feel like they have lost their identity and focus. The army just feels like a weaker version of all the other marine books. At least Dark Angels and Space Wolves have units unique to them and strong in their own right. What the Blood Angels have is copied and then the copy is made better.

Now just waiting for Wolves or Vanilla marines to get a librarian dreadnought to take away the last shred of uniqueness that Blood Angels had....


Blood Angels simply haven't gotten the 7.5 treatment yet.

If you want to know what real thieving looks like, try being a Chaos player...
- Oblits & Mutilators? Loyalists get Centurians which are only 1000x better in every respect.

- Dark Blades were a 'one per army', +2S power weapon that could end up hurting the guy holding it. We lost it, but suddenly Loyalists discovered entire armouries full of Relic Blades.

- Close combat Dreadnoughts were exclusively a Chaos thing back in the day, with BA's having the slightly worse Furioso. Now Ironclads are a close combat Helbrute x100. (better av, an actual delivery system, better anti-vehicle abilities, more attacks, no going bat gak crazy and double shooting your Combi-bolters!)

- Wulfen = Possessed x1,000,000 in every single way.

- Chaos used to be the kings of Deep Strike... and assaulting from reserves was our unique ability with Daemon summoning. Enter the Skyhammer formation.


Pretty much the only unique toys we still have are the Dinobots and the Helturkey. Though give it time, and I'm sure GW will shoehorn in a similar vehicle/MC to some Marine Chapter that massively 1-up's those too!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8423288.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8423288.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
 Slaphead wrote:

- Chaos used to be the kings of Deep Strike... and assaulting from reserves was our unique ability with Daemon summoning. Enter the Skyhammer formation.


Eh... Didn't BA have this first with the Angel's Fury formation?

(is anyone else amused that this was brought full circle?)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8424158.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8424158.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
 Lucumon wrote:
 Slaphead wrote:

- Chaos used to be the kings of Deep Strike... and assaulting from reserves was our unique ability with Daemon summoning. Enter the Skyhammer formation.


Eh... Didn't BA have this first with the Angel's Fury formation?

(is anyone else amused that this was brought full circle?)


He's talking about 3.5 edition or earlier, where you could have AP2 Bloodletters in Power Armor pop out of deepstrike and right into your face.

Or Daemonettes with 3 attacks each and rended on a TO HIT roll of a 6.

Chaos have fallen a looong way
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8424187.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8424187.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
 Lucumon wrote:
 Slaphead wrote:

- Chaos used to be the kings of Deep Strike... and assaulting from reserves was our unique ability with Daemon summoning. Enter the Skyhammer formation.


Eh... Didn't BA have this first with the Angel's Fury formation?

(is anyone else amused that this was brought full circle?)


Back in the 3.5 codex, Chaos was THE army that turned Deep Striking tactics into an entire play style.

Charging from DS used to be a Chaos exclusive, with Daemons being the only units who could do it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8424188.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8424188.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
Bloodletters had S5 and Space Marine statlines. Freaking S5. They could carve open tanks!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8424197.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8424197.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Not to mention the close combat Daemons use to be terrifying.

Bloodletters had S5 and Space Marine statlines. Freaking S5. They could carve open tanks!


To be fair, they're still S5 on the charge, and nowadays cost about half the points they used to back in the day...

It is however hilarious to realise that Pink Horrors can flip tanks better than Bloodletters, while the embodiment of pure rage & murder is a feeble S6 & yet the Lord of Change's kung-fu stick can golf swing Marines at S8! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8424210.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8424210.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
Back when armies actually had a unique identity.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8424216.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8424216.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
 Jayden63 wrote:
This is why I play the way I do. 4th edition rules with any 5th edition or lower codex you choose to use.

Back when armies actually had a unique identity.

Your thoughts and ideas interest me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter good sir]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8424218.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8424218.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
Akiasura wrote:
 Jayden63 wrote:
This is why I play the way I do. 4th edition rules with any 5th edition or lower codex you choose to use.

Back when armies actually had a unique identity.

Your thoughts and ideas interest me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter good sir


If serious send me a PM and I'll talk about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Experiment 626 wrote:
 Slaphead wrote:
Decent jump pack based army = Ravenguard do it better than any of the BA assault marines and formations.
Heavily armoured flying assault transport with strong firepower = Stormfang does it better than the Stormraven.
Killy, choppy, raging dreadnought = Murderfang is released. Debatable if it is better than DC dreadnought - situational.
Killy raging berzerkers = The new Wulfen do it miles better than the Death company.


Just thought I would get people's views on the above. Do you think GW are intentionally looking at units unique to Blood Angels and then just copying the idea behind them and giving them to another army? Ok, I know Wulfen have been around before, but their new incarnation puts them miles ahead of the Death Company. Ravenguard are and should be geared towards stealth, infiltration and also jump packs, but Blood Angels used to be about assault marines, but I now feel like they have lost their identity and focus. The army just feels like a weaker version of all the other marine books. At least Dark Angels and Space Wolves have units unique to them and strong in their own right. What the Blood Angels have is copied and then the copy is made better.

Now just waiting for Wolves or Vanilla marines to get a librarian dreadnought to take away the last shred of uniqueness that Blood Angels had....


Blood Angels simply haven't gotten the 7.5 treatment yet.

If you want to know what real thieving looks like, try being a Chaos player...
- Oblits & Mutilators? Loyalists get Centurians which are only 1000x better in every respect.

- Dark Blades were a 'one per army', +2S power weapon that could end up hurting the guy holding it. We lost it, but suddenly Loyalists discovered entire armouries full of Relic Blades.

- Close combat Dreadnoughts were exclusively a Chaos thing back in the day, with BA's having the slightly worse Furioso. Now Ironclads are a close combat Helbrute x100. (better av, an actual delivery system, better anti-vehicle abilities, more attacks, no going bat gak crazy and double shooting your Combi-bolters!)

- Wulfen = Possessed x1,000,000 in every single way.

- Chaos used to be the kings of Deep Strike... and assaulting from reserves was our unique ability with Daemon summoning. Enter the Skyhammer formation.


Pretty much the only unique toys we still have are the Dinobots and the Helturkey. Though give it time, and I'm sure GW will shoehorn in a similar vehicle/MC to some Marine Chapter that massively 1-up's those too!


So much truth to this. Everything cool Chaos ever had got nerfed to hell the next edition codex and it somehow showed up in a better form in the next SM release. Its really a disgusting cycle and is the main reason Chaos is a shell of its former self and has become nothing more than last editions spiky marines.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8424229.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8424229.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? GKs and the old Blood Angels...ha)

We should start a club :U]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8424241.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8424241.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I also do the whole "4th edition" thing, but with only codexes released before 5th edition (going 5th means cheese like GKs and the old Blood Angels...ha)

We should start a club :U


To be fair, all codexs get hit with a heavy dose of the red correction pen and why not.... Make the game you want to play, not the game GW forced on us.

Just some examples are Eldar Holofields now just give a 5+ inv save instead of their rules. Grey Hunters have to pay for their second specialist weapon. Psyammo is a 15 point upgrade instead of 5. (its amazing how quickly some upgrades start to add up when they cost appropriately)

Yes its a lot of house rules, but actually not as many as you need to just play a basic game as it currently sits.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8424270.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8424270.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? AoS 40k alot of people will play older editions or come up with a fan made 8th edition.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8424946.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8424946.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
hobojebus wrote:
Well if they AoS 40k alot of people will play older editions or come up with a fan made 8th edition.
And still buy he GW models. GW wins no matter what.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8424972.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8424972.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8424994.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8424994.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? BA's.

Hopefully Chaos players will have something good to use when the new codex FINALLY becomes released. Maybe GW are taking so long in bringing it out because there is a ton of work they need to do in updating it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425033.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425033.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
 Slaphead wrote:
Some really good points made by everyone. Fair doo's Chaos have had it a lot worse than BA's.

Hopefully Chaos players will have something good to use when the new codex FINALLY becomes released. Maybe GW are taking so long in bringing it out because there is a ton of work they need to do in updating it.


I think BA are worse than CSM at this exact moment. BA can't even drop units as durable as mutilators as we discussed in the other thread. BA are literally eclipsed by vanilla in every phase of the game. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425286.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425286.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? BA ASM about as durable as a Mutilator, for about the same points?

Min/maxing, sure, they aren't top dog. But there are plenty of things BA can do that any given faction can't.

But yes, every faction steals from every other faction.

CWE are fast. Their Phoenix Lords are the pinnicle of skill. Jain Zar is a beyond-legendary swordsman. An Assasin who focuses on sniper rifles has better sword skill. Baharoth is the fastest of the *phoenix lords*. Cypher, a human, is faster.

SM have elite, durable troops. Necron Warriors have the same shooting skill and durability.

Things just get passed around a lot.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425419.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425419.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

That's due to erosion of the fluff. Previously Dark Angels were the only ones who even had enough Terminator Armor to equip their entire first company; other first companies had Terminators but neither enough to deploy the entire company in them nor would commit them all to an offensive.


Have you got a fluff source for that? I seem to recall it was indeed true back in 1st edition but am damned if I can actually find a canon source for it. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425426.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425426.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? SM codex. I'm at work right now so I don't have access to my books. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425434.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425434.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
 Slaphead wrote:
Some really good points made by everyone. Fair doo's Chaos have had it a lot worse than BA's.

Hopefully Chaos players will have something good to use when the new codex FINALLY becomes released. Maybe GW are taking so long in bringing it out because there is a ton of work they need to do in updating it.
Wait...did you just state that GW might be putting in extra work on a codex...... ......that's rich, especially when discussing the CSM codex. Out of curiosity, what kind of "work" are you thinking of? I think it's fairly obvious they don't playtest their stuff and it seems R&D consists of "here's a big model, make it appeal to people"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425549.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425549.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?

I was thinking along the lines of a complete re-write rather than a quick release like Tau that involved just a few changes. If they actually did a decent job with the traitor legions then I might even be tempted to start a small Chaos force at some point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:


I think BA are worse than CSM at this exact moment. BA can't even drop units as durable as mutilators as we discussed in the other thread. BA are literally eclipsed by vanilla in every phase of the game.



In your opinion is there any army that is weaker than Blood Angels or are we pretty much the very bottom of the pile as a standalone army?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425572.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425572.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? BA can do that any given faction can't. "

Nothing worth actually doing, though. That's the entire problem. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425642.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425642.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425762.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425762.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
 Slaphead wrote:
ha ha, yes, well here's hoping

I was thinking along the lines of a complete re-write rather than a quick release like Tau that involved just a few changes. If they actually did a decent job with the traitor legions then I might even be tempted to start a small Chaos force at some point.

The only thing that can help Chaos right now is for GW to garbage the entire model line with the exception of the Raptor/Warptalons + Hellbrute + Dinobots + Helturkey kits and re-boot everything else.

BA's only problem is that shooting is king, and they have yet to receive the 7.5 treatment.

Chaos's problems are that our entire army is still stuck rotting in 3rd/4th edition play styles of 'Rhino Rush infantry assaults', supported by Plasma guns & Autocannons. Meanwhile, everything in our army is still paying 4th & 5th edition points costs, and instead of getting any kind of army-wide special rules, we have to pay for them instead.



 Slaphead wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:


I think BA are worse than CSM at this exact moment. BA can't even drop units as durable as mutilators as we discussed in the other thread. BA are literally eclipsed by vanilla in every phase of the game.



In your opinion is there any army that is weaker than Blood Angels or are we pretty much the very bottom of the pile as a standalone army?

No, BA's are not worse than Chaos Marines, Martel just enjoys being a martyr too much...

While BA's are just as shoehorned in 'Tournament' level play as Chaos is, outside of the most cutthroat dickstomping festivals, BA's play decently enough. Chaos Marine meanwhile are still stuck with basically 5 choices even at the lowest levels of fluff bunny play.

Whine all you want about BA's, your book isn't vomiting monkey poop that includes Mutilators + Warptalons + Thousand Sons! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425865.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425865.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? BA certainly have nothing as effective as mutilators for what he's using them for.

What do you mean by "play decently enough"? You mean the assault troops that can't win assaults with the dregs that make it across the board? Or maybe the overcosted imperial weapon platforms? BA maybe have less than 5 choices that are actually good. The entire heavy support section of the book is useless garbage. At least CSM have oblits.

"BA's only problem is that shooting is king"

The entire concept of assault meqs in defunct. CSM have a much wider variety of units that don't have the marine statline. This is critical in 7th ed. T4 3+ is too fragile now. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425893.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425893.page GMT Re:Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? CSMs.



]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425935.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425935.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? OP: Being copied would mean that Blood Angels had anything worth copying to begin with, perhaps you mean 'improved upon' or 'embarrassed by other codexes'?

Our codex isn't bad, it's the meta that's morphed into this decurion-spamming-volume-of-fire-wins-every-game monstrosity.

Experiment 626 wrote:


BA's only problem is that shooting is king, and they have yet to receive the 7.5 treatment.



You're serious? Wait a second, wait a second, you mean to tell me, that with the sudden 'buff' that every other codex got via 7.5 the Blood Angels dex will suddenly come in line with the rest of the meta and we'll be competitive again?

Man, I wish I had your optimism. Or some of whatever you're smoking. Either way it'd be refreshing to be this delusional, or maybe less cynical.


Experiment 626 wrote:
 Slaphead wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:


Martel732 wrote:


I think BA are worse than CSM at this exact moment. BA can't even drop units as durable as mutilators as we discussed in the other thread. BA are literally eclipsed by vanilla in every phase of the game.



In your opinion is there any army that is weaker than Blood Angels or are we pretty much the very bottom of the pile as a standalone army?

No, BA's are not worse than Chaos Marines, Martel just enjoys being a martyr too much...

While BA's are just as shoehorned in 'Tournament' level play as Chaos is, outside of the most cutthroat dickstomping festivals, BA's play decently enough. Chaos Marine meanwhile are still stuck with basically 5 choices even at the lowest levels of fluff bunny play.

Whine all you want about BA's, your book isn't vomiting monkey poop that includes Mutilators + Warptalons + Thousand Sons!


Blood Angels don't really even have 5 choices if memory serves (I've shelved them until I can work a way for them to survive gunlines). Death Company with a character or two, fast tanks, and a Sanguinary deathstar that isn't really a deathstar. I mean they're marines, sure, so it's not like we're relegated to Guard stats or anything - but I think that's sort of the point. We don't really have a way to get those murder-death-kill-machines where they need to be without: A) Spending stupid amounts of points on assault transports (that just get glanced to death anyway) or B) Sacrificing a similarly deadly(expensive) unit in order to force our opponent to ignore the DC. Either the army suffers from a general lack of mobility - not to mention the formations are hilariously bad.

I'm not saying that CSM's have a myriad of options, but despite their codex's obvious age and flaws - I think they may have a leg up on BA overall.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425941.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425941.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? CSM have better FW options as well.

There are advantages to guard stats as well. Guard can bring six primaris psykers, hand out misfortunate and FRFSRF things to death at a rate that BA can only dream of. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425950.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425950.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
Martel732 wrote:
CSM have better FW options as well.

There are advantages to guard stats as well. Guard can bring six primaris psykers, hand out misfortunate and FRFSRF things to death at a rate that BA can only dream of.


All true. Although when you're forced to slog it up the board, all that tax for Marine stats really means nothing when you are removing units at the same rate as a Guard player does.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425958.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425958.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? MCs/GMCs care about. GW forgot to make GMCs immune to rending, lol. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425968.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425968.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
Martel732 wrote:
It's just a mathematical consequence of mass rending being one of the few things that MCs/GMCs care about. GW forgot to make GMCs immune to rending, lol.


Holy crap, you're right. I had no idea.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425977.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425977.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425983.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425983.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425994.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8425994.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
 n0t_u wrote:
Honestly, as they're the assault marines I'd like to see something give them shred and rending on chainswords army wide just for fun.


Doesn't matter when they die before they get where they're going. It's a multi-layered problem. They can't shoot well, which means they take more return fire turn after turn, which reduces the number of models that make it to hand to hand. None of which are as good as TWC or Wraiths or other real assault units. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426004.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426004.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
Experiment 626 wrote:


- Dark Blades were a 'one per army', +2S power weapon that could end up hurting the guy holding it. We lost it, but suddenly Loyalists discovered entire armouries full of Relic Blades.


Sisters had Blessed Weapons as a one-per-army +2s power weapon even before that. 30 points, two-handed, now Marine relic blades are exactly the same thing... (sure, the relic blade says 'strikes at S6', but it's being held by a S4 marine, so its basically +2)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426023.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426023.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
Martel732 wrote:
 n0t_u wrote:
Honestly, as they're the assault marines I'd like to see something give them shred and rending on chainswords army wide just for fun.


Doesn't matter when they die before they get where they're going. It's a multi-layered problem. They can't shoot well, which means they take more return fire turn after turn, which reduces the number of models that make it to hand to hand. None of which are as good as TWC or Wraiths or other real assault units.


One step at a time.

Firstly the assault and shooting balance needs fixing again. Problem is it keeps swinging way too hard one way or the other.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426044.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426044.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426059.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426059.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?

Just not to the endless sweeping combat in one turn with consolidation fun times.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426069.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426069.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? cc work. The game has power creeped past the point of jump marines being a thing you can build a list around. BA need monstrous creature jump units to be 7th ed compatible. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426084.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426084.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426099.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426099.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
S6+ that doesn't AP Marines - such as the much hated Scatter Laser - kills Guard *twice* or more as fast.

Sure, Guardsmen cost less than half a Marine, but very few armies spam shots that are both s6+ *and* AP3-.

Misfortune might do more for Guard, but it can be useful for Marines too. They can get a decent number of hits from Boltguns. Not as many hits per point as Lasguns, but still a bunch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ASM haven't been a main line assault unit since before I started. They are bullies. Back when you actually had to pay for mobility.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426100.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426100.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
Martel732 wrote:
The entire concept of assault meqs in defunct. CSM have a much wider variety of units that don't have the marine statline. This is critical in 7th ed. T4 3+ is too fragile now.

You aren't exactly wrong here. Informed players prepare with top table lists in mind and Battle Company is a huge obstacle for armies without Obsec. So a lot of people will specifically be tailoring to wipe out three units in particular:

- Drop Pods
- Rhinos
- 50+ T4 3+ models

Sounds familiar right. BA is a little faster but they certainly can't bring 300-500pts of free Obsec to win on objectives. I think you are on the right track in going for assault, you need some advantage and no way you can outmuscle Battle Company in either shooting or numbers.

Incidentally DC is probably your best source of mass Rending, though obviously you gotta keep the suckers alive and they aren't so much less fragile than Warp Talons.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426106.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426106.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? SD hit to represent something having its skull crushed into the ground underneath this thing's foot after it drops from orbit. On top of that they gain the bloodshield of baal which is basically just eldar titan holoshields. And they can also pick up friendly Rhinos to help reposition them with their jump.

The model will be $135 and it will become the new thing to complain about. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426119.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426119.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
Yoyoyo wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
The entire concept of assault meqs in defunct. CSM have a much wider variety of units that don't have the marine statline. This is critical in 7th ed. T4 3+ is too fragile now.

You aren't exactly wrong here. Informed players prepare with top table lists in mind and Battle Company is a huge obstacle for armies without Obsec. So a lot of people will specifically be tailoring to wipe out three units in particular:

- Drop Pods
- Rhinos
- 50+ T4 3+ models

Sounds familiar right. BA is a little faster but they certainly can't bring 300-500pts of free Obsec to win on objectives. I think you are on the right track in going for assault, you need some advantage and no way you can outmuscle Battle Company in either shooting or numbers.

Incidentally DC is probably your best source of mass Rending, though obviously you gotta keep the suckers alive and they aren't so much less fragile than Warp Talons.


DC don't rend.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 n0t_u wrote:
So Bloodknights? Like Dreadknights but they have special s9 lightning claws,wings, and a special blood thrower (which is definitely not khornate) but shoots a torrent that's like s6 ap3. They can jump and deepstrike like swooping hawks, and charge the turn they arrive from deep strike. If they scatter onto a unit it takes a SD hit to represent something having its skull crushed into the ground underneath this thing's foot after it drops from orbit. On top of that they gain the bloodshield of baal which is basically just eldar titan holoshields. And they can also pick up friendly Rhinos to help reposition them with their jump.

The model will be $135 and it will become the new thing to complain about.


That's the game GW has made. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426140.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426140.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
Martel732 wrote:
DC don't rend.

Ahem, neither do Lasguns...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426152.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426152.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
Bharring wrote:
Only S6+ *and* AP3- remove Marines at the same rate as Guardsmen.

S6+ that doesn't AP Marines - such as the much hated Scatter Laser - kills Guard *twice* or more as fast.

Sure, Guardsmen cost less than half a Marine, but very few armies spam shots that are both s6+ *and* AP3-.

Misfortune might do more for Guard, but it can be useful for Marines too. They can get a decent number of hits from Boltguns. Not as many hits per point as Lasguns, but still a bunch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ASM haven't been a main line assault unit since before I started. They are bullies. Back when you actually had to pay for mobility.


"Sure, Guardsmen cost less than half a Marine"

That's critical information and you just glossed over it like it doesn't matter. There is no situation where a scatterlaser kills a guardsment more than twice as fast as a marine. Give the guard 4+++ cover, and it gets even worse.

Decent numbers of hits don't matter in 7th ed. You need huge numbers to compete with the good units of the edition.

BA in particular have no way to get enough psykers to get misfortune on a regular basis anyway.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yoyoyo wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
DC don't rend.

Ahem, neither do Lasguns...


You mean misfortune them, and then assault with DC? Again, BA don't have any good ways to reliably get misfortune. And the DC has to live to assault. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426158.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426158.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
There is a trifecta of codex, it is the BA, SW and CSM codex. They are the assault books. Every time a new one is released, or one gets an update, the others start to play "count as" and proxy using the new ones rules. Every book gets a one up on the last book. You complain that wulfen are better than DC, while CSM complain that DC are better than berserkers. At the EXACT SAME TIME CSM complain that wulfen are better than posessed.


Ever single time a new marine book comes out, an older marine army will complain about it. This is nothing new.

Back in my day, SW were an outflank/sneaky army that were pretty good in CC. Now they are this giant hairy frozen hammer of doom that will destroy anything they touch... and can re-roll outflank that they don't have practical access to.

BA were not the first army, by your logic, they stole from some other codex. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426169.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426169.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426176.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426176.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
 gwarsh41 wrote:


There is a trifecta of codex, it is the BA, SW and CSM codex. They are the assault books. Every time a new one is released, or one gets an update, the others start to play "count as" and proxy using the new ones rules. Every book gets a one up on the last book. You complain that wulfen are better than DC, while CSM complain that DC are better than berserkers. At the EXACT SAME TIME CSM complain that wulfen are better than posessed.


Ever single time a new marine book comes out, an older marine army will complain about it. This is nothing new.

Back in my day, SW were an outflank/sneaky army that were pretty good in CC. Now they are this giant hairy frozen hammer of doom that will destroy anything they touch... and can re-roll outflank that they don't have practical access to.

BA were not the first army, by your logic, they stole from some other codex.


The main reason why some of the marine armies that exist should just be rolled back into the sm book.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426196.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426196.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? The twice or more was about anything S6+ but not AP3. Scatter Lasers only kill Guard twice as fast, but Autocannons, for instance, kill them even faster.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426252.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426252.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
Bharring wrote:
Martel,
The twice or more was about anything S6+ but not AP3. Scatter Lasers only kill Guard twice as fast, but Autocannons, for instance, kill them even faster.


Good thing autocannons are in second-rate lists for the most part. In general, standard Imperial heavy weapons are a non-sequitur in 7th ed. They are stuck in the 90s and can't kill enough before they are neutralized. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426282.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426282.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
Autocannons were just an example. For the vast majority of shots in this game, Marines are at least twice as durable. Often much, much more.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426299.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426299.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
Bharring wrote:
Because Autocannons are nowhere, but are Scatter Lasers more common than Bolt guns/pistols, Gauss weapons, Shuriken weapons, Pulse weapons, Lasguns, and Shootas?

Autocannons were just an example. For the vast majority of shots in this game, Marines are at least twice as durable. Often much, much more.


And it's still not nearly, nearly enough. And there are a growing number of cases where they are no more durable at all, which is a straight up disaster for them. Guardsmen can't have disasters because there's nothing invested in them to begin with. At this point, we are almost better off with the cheapest model possible in 7th ed. Because everything dies in droves unless you are the chosen few units or MCs/GMCs.

"For the vast majority of shots in this game, Marines are at least twice as durable"

I'm not so sure this is true anymore in the games I play. Even if it were, being exactly twice as durable is actually being more fragile. Which basically means the marines are done. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426310.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426310.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
Martel732 wrote:
You mean misfortune them, and then assault with DC?

Yep. Pretty much anything with volume of attacks and a lot of bodies synergizes well with Divination. Sanctic in particular for BA would help after that, buff that 4++ to 3++ (or 2++ for certain characters ) and add +2 Str on top of Furious Charge.

You can get 8x MLs in a dual CAD but it's horribly awkward compared to a Lib Conclave.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426380.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426380.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
Martel732 wrote:
 Slaphead wrote:
Some really good points made by everyone. Fair doo's Chaos have had it a lot worse than BA's.

Hopefully Chaos players will have something good to use when the new codex FINALLY becomes released. Maybe GW are taking so long in bringing it out because there is a ton of work they need to do in updating it.


I think BA are worse than CSM at this exact moment. BA can't even drop units as durable as mutilators as we discussed in the other thread. BA are literally eclipsed by vanilla in every phase of the game.


Well, we had some similar discussion in our local club. There's gona be a blood orkangels vs white scar match some time later. I think DC and sanguinary guards are still good. Sang priests are great. The idea currently is to run msu DC with a fist, sang guard with cheap sang priest, some rhino marines for blos and bottlenecking, a bunch of min grav bikes cause BA still need range support and, well, you know, grav bikes. Also, some scouts to get on objectivest and to try to deny scout moves and infiltrations. VSG is a must in such a list, i think. There's likely gona be a melta drop in face of assault marines or tacticals. It's not outstanding but handy in such a list. We'll see how it goes.

I have some hesitation about ba chapter master. He's strong in combat, has H&R and has a potent warlord trait but he alone costs like a squad of sang guards+sang priest and it's hard to say what's better. He's probably great if you plan to DS a lot of stuff or have a lot of reserves otherwise.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426503.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426503.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
Martel732 wrote:
"For the vast majority of shots in this game, Marines are at least twice as durable"

I'm not so sure this is true anymore in the games I play. Even if it were, being exactly twice as durable is actually being more fragile. Which basically means the marines are done.


The question is, twice as durable against what? If you're fighting a horde of Orks with shootas, for sure. But all the things that are scary in the game, they die like all the other things in the game that aren't scary.

True durability in the 40k comes down to models which die instantly to any number of attacks like D-Weapons, Instant Death, Stomps and all the killy SRs that are everywhere now -- and models which can survive a large percentage of these attacks. The durable models are the ones with invulnerable saves, automatic cover rolls, invisibility, or immunity from instant deletion. Preferably a whole bunch of those durable SRs. Generally, that comes down to heroes, great elites, and monstrous creatures.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426676.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426676.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426686.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426686.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? SM has at least twice the per-body survivability.

Two points here, that you keep arguing against:
1) For most armies, the majority of the dakka kills Guard at least twice as fast.
What are the common armies in this game likely to have? More Scatter Lasers for Eldar than Wraith Cannons? Certainly. More Boltguns per Gladius than Grav? Almost certainly. More Tesla in a Decurion than Death marks(?)? Again, certainly.

2) Weapons *such as* Scatter Lasers that don't AP Marines include at least some weapons that can ki Guard at faster than twice as fast as Marines. I don't know how their existence is debatable.

You're reading further into things.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426752.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426752.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? AP the guard, does it matter? Cover is generally a 5+, so guard will often still roll the same save they paid for. Not so the marine.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426754.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8426754.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8427553.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8427553.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
Martel732 wrote:
 Slaphead wrote:
Some really good points made by everyone. Fair doo's Chaos have had it a lot worse than BA's.

Hopefully Chaos players will have something good to use when the new codex FINALLY becomes released. Maybe GW are taking so long in bringing it out because there is a ton of work they need to do in updating it.


I think BA are worse than CSM at this exact moment. BA can't even drop units as durable as mutilators as we discussed in the other thread. BA are literally eclipsed by vanilla in every phase of the game.


I like how Terminators are gak and Assault Terminators are only slightly better to you and yet the 2 wound Terminator that has no guns to speak of and can't run to even get close to being able to assault - a method of killing you always decry as being impossible as it is for Terminators while also being terrible - is somehow really durable and awesomesauce compared to your entire codex.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8427601.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8427601.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8427685.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8427685.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8427784.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8427784.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
 koooaei wrote:
Isn't "ignore cover everywhere"? =D


Sure, spend those two markerlight tokens to kill a 50 pt guardsman squad.

Just ignore the guardsmen. They're like mutilators, they're not going to hurt anything important even if they get in position to do so.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8427792.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8427792.page GMT Re:Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? BA some of the help they need. Super Formation that allows T1 Assault out of Deep Strike. Gimme some new units like Space Wolves are getting. Like a new flyer that is exclusive to Blood Angels or something really wild like Death Company Terminators (because...reasons), Death Company Bikers (because why not), or something to that effect.

Actually, the money unit: Death Company Centurions.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8427958.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8427958.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
 koooaei wrote:
Isn't "ignore cover everywhere"? =D

Depends on the army. Tau have it in spades of course and any melee unit will ignore cover if it's good.
Wg D sycthes also ignore cover, as do flamers in general, although flamers aren't commonly picked. I think there might be a psyker power that allows it but I can't recall it off hand...most people reach for summoning, upping stats, teleporting, or re rolls it seems.

You'll notice I've never said ignore cover is everywhere. It's certainly more prevalent than it has ever been in the game, but it's still very army dependent. There certainly isn't enough in most armies to cause all of the guardsmen to lose their saves across the board. If it was one 400 point model relying on a cover save to live, sure, whatever ignores cover the army possesses will get thrown that way. Dropping 100 guardsmen is much harder.

I'm not sure why you used quotation marks?
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428008.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428008.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Slaphead wrote:
Some really good points made by everyone. Fair doo's Chaos have had it a lot worse than BA's.

Hopefully Chaos players will have something good to use when the new codex FINALLY becomes released. Maybe GW are taking so long in bringing it out because there is a ton of work they need to do in updating it.


I think BA are worse than CSM at this exact moment. BA can't even drop units as durable as mutilators as we discussed in the other thread. BA are literally eclipsed by vanilla in every phase of the game.


I like how Terminators are gak and Assault Terminators are only slightly better to you and yet the 2 wound Terminator that has no guns to speak of and can't run to even get close to being able to assault - a method of killing you always decry as being impossible as it is for Terminators while also being terrible - is somehow really durable and awesomesauce compared to your entire codex.


It's because I'm forced to buy 5 of them minimum. If I could buy two assault terminators and use them as tie-up losers, I would. It's all about efficiency. The grav devs or scatter bikes aren't nearly as good against squads of 1 or 2. In fact, if I could take 50 squads of one BA marine, things would improve a lot. But minimums of 5 make sure that grav devs or scatterbikes get their money's worth when they fire. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428046.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428046.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
Have you considered running them as distraction/harassment?

BA may not do distraction-threats like CSM, but they do have options.

Aki,
That is why I said "twice or better" instead of "up to 3x better", when referring to what weapons that don't AP Marines do.

In general, if Guardsmen were so good, you'd see them more. If you saw them more, Marines would be better. As it sits, neither are a great option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, 5 Tac Marines are 70 points for Loyalists, 65 points for CSM, no huge difference.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428089.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428089.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? CSM, that says a lot. Maybe with the Dante tax to offset the larger DS footprint. Maybe. For 105, you can get five men and two melta guns. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428152.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428152.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
Bharring wrote:
ASM with their packs cost a little more than 1 muti, or a little less than 2 mutis. They should be much more survivable than 1 muti, and a little less than 2. They can deep strike, but they can also run, move 12" in the movement phase, and even have a little shooting.

Have you considered running them as distraction/harassment?

BA may not do distraction-threats like CSM, but they do have options.

Aki,
That is why I said "twice or better" instead of "up to 3x better", when referring to what weapons that don't AP Marines do.

In general, if Guardsmen were so good, you'd see them more. If you saw them more, Marines would be better. As it sits, neither are a great option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, 5 Tac Marines are 70 points for Loyalists, 65 points for CSM, no huge difference.


I agree that neither are good options, I was just pointing out that the Ap5 rarely comes up for guard.

It's a bigger deal for cultists, orks, and Nids because they want to reach cc and usually have to break cover to do so, being (mostly) slow. Guard can just hang back and let the wyverns take down targets while bubble wrapping to prevent charges to the tanks or Los being drawn. It's much easier for them to claim cover, and many ignores covers weapons that you see taken ignore armor too, with the exception of tau.

Ap 3 is a big deal for marines because they pay for a 3+ save that often gets demoted to a 5+ save, which is obviously worse. The fact that many Ap 3 weapons are better than strength 6 doesn't help.
Grav is also an issue of course.

That was my only point.


Edit,
I don't think BA have worse options than CSM by and large, though both armies are bottom of the barrel bad so it hardly matters who is slightly worse off.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428250.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428250.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? CSM vs BA, LOL. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428262.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428262.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
It's not like Eldar, tau, necron, or sm. heck, it's not even as bad as it would be against sisters or Nids.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428272.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428272.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? BA MSU handle mutilator drop + raptors + spawn? CSM is a game where I think Dante would actually be pretty good. He kills all the raptors very quickly. DC seem to be reasonable against spawn as well. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428277.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428277.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? BA have some counters to spawn, but can't effectively counter the drake or bikes well, so it's a bit of a toss up.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428285.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428285.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
Akiasura wrote:
You'll have to let me know how it goes or post a report. I'm not much impressed with mutilators or the reports they appeared in. Raptors are strictly inferior to bikes, spawn are great of course. I do think BA have some counters to spawn, but can't effectively counter the drake or bikes well, so it's a bit of a toss up.


I counter the drake by being in assault. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428309.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428309.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428333.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428333.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428338.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428338.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
But this is wildly off topic.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428374.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428374.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
Martel732 wrote:
 Slaphead wrote:
Some really good points made by everyone. Fair doo's Chaos have had it a lot worse than BA's.

Hopefully Chaos players will have something good to use when the new codex FINALLY becomes released. Maybe GW are taking so long in bringing it out because there is a ton of work they need to do in updating it.


I think BA are worse than CSM at this exact moment. BA can't even drop units as durable as mutilators as we discussed in the other thread. BA are literally eclipsed by vanilla in every phase of the game.

For the last bloody time Martel, Mutilators are NOT durable, and they don't fulfill any role well.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428727.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428727.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? BA squad. Sounds good to me. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428739.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428739.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? GK paladins and give them built-in Storm Shields. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428744.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428744.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Martel won't be satisfied until BAs steal GK paladins and give them built-in Storm Shields.


I don't want anything from the filthy GK. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428751.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428751.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
Martel732 wrote:
They take up space, can assault, and are cheaper than any BA squad. Sounds good to me.

Cultists are cheap too but don't do anything. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428780.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428780.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
They take up space, can assault, and are cheaper than any BA squad. Sounds good to me.

Cultists are cheap too but don't do anything.


My army is expensive and doesn't do anything. Forgive me if I'm envious of the ability to just spam targets, since troop quality no longer matters at all. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428818.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8428818.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? Quit whining. 5 Scouts are a MUCH better buy than a Mutilator.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8429163.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8429163.page GMT Re:Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8429377.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8429377.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8429384.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8429384.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
Akiasura wrote:
True, but 5 scouts will often accomplish more than a mutie. They can soak up more firepower in many cases, though not all.


They also give much greater board control right from deployment, unlike Mutilators, who really require both an entirely different FOC, (which many metas will not even allow due to being FW rules), and at best won't be able to help give board control until T2 at the earliest!

Plus the fact that Scouts can't ever mishap, unlike Mutilators.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8429408.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8429408.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? BA assault marines in assault while being cheaper points wise.

Granted, they are not as durable being lower WS and sporting scout armor, but 15 attacks from 5 models on the charge at ST:5/I:5 isn't too shabby, and they still hit on 4+ in melee like any other marine, scout or otherwise.

I'm about to be working on a squad of 5 scouts for my BA army and will likely be putting a power sword on the sergeant so he can charge and challenge most other one wound characters while being able to cleave through their armor before they get to swing. That's the theory anyway.

Just my thoughts on that. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8429845.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8429845.page GMT Re:Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Man, threads like this really make me hope for a Warzone : Baal campaign to be coming out. Tyranids and Chaos Daemons are supposed to be converging on Baal now. Have it give BA some of the help they need. Super Formation that allows T1 Assault out of Deep Strike. Gimme some new units like Space Wolves are getting. Like a new flyer that is exclusive to Blood Angels or something really wild like Death Company Terminators (because...reasons), Death Company Bikers (because why not), or something to that effect.

Actually, the money unit: Death Company Centurions.


I love it when you post things.

Also, DC Cents made me giggle a bit. Would make Assault Centurions worth taking, maybe?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8432337.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8432337.page GMT Re:Are Blood Angels purposely being copied? CAD with Grey Hunters (read: BA Tactical Marines) and a Wolf Priest (read: Sanguinary Priest), and some Skyclaws (read: Assault Marines). YES! I found a way to bring BA back up! I could even make some SM Bikes and call them Thunderwolf Cavalry!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8432886.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8432886.page GMT Are Blood Angels purposely being copied?
 Ashiraya wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
Isn't "ignore cover everywhere"? =D


Sure, spend those two markerlight tokens to kill a 50 pt guardsman squad.

Just ignore the guardsmen. They're like mutilators, they're not going to hurt anything important even if they get in position to do so.


I can't tell if you're serious or just bad at being sarcastic.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8433483.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/678614/8433483.page GMT