<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star?"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star?
What are some of the craziest ideas you can come up with? I go over a few of my own in this youtube video.



]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8488356.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8488356.page GMT Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star? Lots of Devastators(Pick your flavor but I mean.... Plasma Cannons. Lots of them).
Maybe a unit of something else inside to deter melee.

Or as someone else I know uses it
Chaos Stormlord
Lots of Noise Marines FORTRESS OF SOUND!!!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8488386.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8488386.page GMT Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star?
Agtthot wrote:
An ITC legal open topped AV14 transport that can't be exploded or immobilized with a capacity of 40 models (that can hold multiple units) and has 20 firing points?! And I NEVER see it being used in youtube battle reports?


How many units can you put in it? BTW thanks for pointing this out. I really want one of these now. Looks like you can fit a bare bones Stormlord in a 2000 point list (The only thing that sucks since my area mostly plays 1850).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8496603.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8496603.page GMT Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star?
 Lord Scythican wrote:


How many units can you put in it? BTW thanks for pointing this out. I really want one of these now. Looks like you can fit a bare bones Stormlord in a 2000 point list (The only thing that sucks since my area mostly plays 1850).


As many as you can fit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I mentioned this to some friends before and one of them told me ITC(iirc) nerfed the number firing points, or the number of different units that could fire out....correct me if they were wrong...
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8496615.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8496615.page GMT Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star?
 Tenzilla wrote:
 Lord Scythican wrote:


How many units can you put in it? BTW thanks for pointing this out. I really want one of these now. Looks like you can fit a bare bones Stormlord in a 2000 point list (The only thing that sucks since my area mostly plays 1850).


As many as you can fit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I mentioned this to some friends before and one of them told me ITC(iirc) nerfed the number firing points, or the number of different units that could fire out....correct me if they were wrong...


The rules say 20 models can fire. What is ITC? Is that a tournament that likes to Nerf rules?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just looked at the ITC guidelines here:

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/frontline-gamings-independent-tournament-circuit/itc-2015-season-40k-tournament-format/

It says you can use it, but I couldn't find anything about how many can fire.

What I did see is that the point restriction is 1850. I thought Lords of War could not be more than 25% of your points? How do you fit a 490+ point tank in a 1850 list? Am I missing something?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8496625.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8496625.page GMT Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8496781.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8496781.page GMT Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star?
 Tenzilla wrote:
Like I said I never looked into it. And I have only ever played one ITC event, and that was as AdMech/Inquisition. Since I only have a baneblade/hellhammer I wasnt overly concerned.


Do you know if there is a limit on how many points you can spend on a LoW in a 40K game?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8496802.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8496802.page GMT Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do recall one FLG battle report with a stormlord in it, it was crons vs. IG if i remember correctly. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8496809.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8496809.page GMT Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star? TLLC and rockets Azreal with a squad DA vets with a ton of plasma guns?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8496827.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8496827.page GMT Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star?
 Tenzilla wrote:
Not that I am aware of.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do recall one FLG battle report with a stormlord in it, it was crons vs. IG if i remember correctly.


I think I was thinking of 30K in the HH. I think they have a 25% cap on LoW. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8496838.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8496838.page GMT Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8496930.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8496930.page GMT Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8496942.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8496942.page GMT Re:Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star?
You can have all that plus two bare bones cadian squads and a Lord Commissar for 1900 points!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8496955.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8496955.page GMT Re:Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8497065.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8497065.page GMT Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8497111.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8497111.page GMT Re:Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star? str spam. Centurions in a pod.

I notice in the video he mentions using psykic powers on the tank, prescience. I don't know if ITC acknowledge the rules, but FW's rules for super heavies bans the use of psykic powers on super heavies, but witchfire attacks.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8497140.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8497140.page GMT Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star?
 Tenzilla wrote:
Thats 2 votes for Azreal and plasma...did I miss something? I thought he just gave a 4+ invul to his squad? why would that be better than power armor?

The 4++ will confer to the vehicle he is embarked I believe. Not sure if that is worth it but being a super heavy with a pretty good chance at annihilating everything inside if it blows - probably mandatory.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Glitcha wrote:
main issue you are going to have is its a super heavy. Most armies have some way of dealing with it. Drop pod metla. D str spam. Centurions in a pod.

I notice in the video he mentions using psykic powers on the tank, prescience. I don't know if ITC acknowledge the rules, but FW's rules for super heavies bans the use of psykic powers on super heavies, but witchfire attacks.

Good point - not a bad idea to bring cotez with 10 monkies to deal with the droppod meltas.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8497167.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8497167.page GMT Re:Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star? STR 10 AP2 HIT TO THE FACE. I actually have first hand experience with fielding these. The last time I played an apocalypse battle I fielded two of them with guard vet squads inside and used them as mobile firebases. When these things blew up, all but a few guardsman inside them died (almost 800 points of veterans with their upgrades), and the couple that survived ran off the board. Unless you are going to field enough psykers to reliably put invisibility on these things, then your 500 points are better spent on the Stormsword's cover ignoring STR 10 AP1 PIE PLATE OF DEATH.

On the flip side, I did think of the crazy idea of putting 8 techpriests inside with 4 servitors.. thus auto repairing 8 hullpoints every turn guaranteed. The opponent would have to kill it in 1 turn in order to kill it!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8497331.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8497331.page GMT Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star? IG. it's actually quite an impressive force. Getting close is a dangerous idea at best, staying too far away is a dangerous gambit at best. You are somewhat caught in the middle by the collaboration of the two. And units of Dreadnoughts are a thing now folks. So that Stormlord coupled wit hthem has shown me that it can be very scary.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8497350.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8497350.page GMT Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star?
That is my issue with super heavies/D weapons in normal 40k
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8497352.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8497352.page GMT Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star?
 Tenzilla wrote:
I love my baneblade...however shortly after I got mine assembled my friend bought 2 D-Thirsters...its nearly pointless to field it against that. If I get first turn it still hardly survives past turn 2.

That is my issue with super heavies/D weapons in normal 40k


Reserving the superheavy might help? It seems as if people always want their cool toys out early and often but there are a lot of good tools for whittling the enemy anti-tank before the actual tanks come on. So its a thought. And a Comms relay can help you make sure it comes in when you want it to.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8497369.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8497369.page GMT Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8497426.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8497426.page GMT Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star?
 Jancoran wrote:
 Tenzilla wrote:
I love my baneblade...however shortly after I got mine assembled my friend bought 2 D-Thirsters...its nearly pointless to field it against that. If I get first turn it still hardly survives past turn 2.

That is my issue with super heavies/D weapons in normal 40k


Reserving the superheavy might help? It seems as if people always want their cool toys out early and often but there are a lot of good tools for whittling the enemy anti-tank before the actual tanks come on. So its a thought. And a Comms relay can help you make sure it comes in when you want it to.


Oh boy I never had considered putting 600 pts in reserves...That almost seems more risky than leaving it on the table to start. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8497449.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8497449.page GMT Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star? crisis suits with 2 meltas are 52 pts each, brought with a buff 'vre for TL (not even taking the tank hunter upgrade) it takes 7 suits (364 pts) and 1 buff suit (57 points) for 421 points to take it out "reliably" in 1 turn. and that can be in 1 unit now. so it can be killed for fewer points in 1 turn than the transport costs. pretty bad.

1.5 hits per suit (bs3 tl), will cause a wound on 33/36 rolls on rear armor so *.91666, 1.375 wounds per suit, 6.545454.. (7) suits to destroy 9hp, not taking into account 1/3 of pens doing an average of 2 wounds. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8497499.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8497499.page GMT Re:Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8498652.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8498652.page GMT Re:Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star?
 Lord Scythican wrote:
How do you all feel about using superheavies like the stormlord in games less than 2000 points? I feel like the game already has them with wraith knights, imperial knights and all those riptide variants.


I do it all the time. I take a Stompa or kustom battle fortress. I don't see an issue with it. There is enough game mechanics to off set it. Plus it takes up so much points in your army as it is. When they introduced the escalation book and allowed some of the Apocalypse stuff to spill over into the normal 40k games it has change the dynamics.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8498668.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8498668.page GMT Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star? My opponent filled it with Heavy Weapons Teams (with Autocannons) and a Enginseer + Servitors to keep repairing it.

Unfortunately, the Stormlord forces you to choose between using its offensive firepower to its potential (which is deadly) or pushing forward as an Assault Transport to deliver its contents/ get them in range to fire.

Choosing the Vulcan Firepower generally ends up being the better choice because then it'll rarely fail to kill its points cost. (Against me, his Stormlord killed 750~ points).
That ends up causing the transported units to simply become bodyguards against any deepstrikers or outflankers or units that come close to the StormLord, wasting their points (and the point of having transport capacity tbh).

Honestly, I think the Stormlord should be able to move and fire twice ... because as it is the stars have to align to give you a scenario where pushing up to deliver its cargo is a better option.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8498774.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8498774.page GMT Re:Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8498909.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8498909.page GMT Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star?
 Tenzilla wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
 Tenzilla wrote:
I love my baneblade...however shortly after I got mine assembled my friend bought 2 D-Thirsters...its nearly pointless to field it against that. If I get first turn it still hardly survives past turn 2.

That is my issue with super heavies/D weapons in normal 40k


Reserving the superheavy might help? It seems as if people always want their cool toys out early and often but there are a lot of good tools for whittling the enemy anti-tank before the actual tanks come on. So its a thought. And a Comms relay can help you make sure it comes in when you want it to.


Oh boy I never had considered putting 600 pts in reserves...That almost seems more risky than leaving it on the table to start.


Well, I put about 1500 points in reserve on a regular basis with certain armies. No sense giving a "superior" enemy more time to operate or free targets to kill. As I have advised people on many occasions, the enemy cannot kill what it cannot see. The more time they have to make mistakes and separate, the more leverage you gain in any one sector to affect them, and get the jump on them always with les return fire. This is a good thing. The idea here is that you surgically remove the "real" problems" and then take their reprisal which is now acceptable.

I would have to research the rules question of its girth. My recollection of this rare case would be that you'd simple place it on the board edge and it wouldn't move further. The only time it could be destroyed this way is if there were literally no way for it to rest where it slumps down. Since tanks can tank shock, this also would be basically never. So yeah... worth researching when I get home.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8500160.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8500160.page GMT Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star?
. Oddly enough, you can't fire forward from the 20 fire points on the deck. So if you tried to use it as a gun platform you would have to turn the stormlord to get the side arch in range. Should not be a problem if you are loading heavy weapons.


No, you can't draw line of sight forwards. Not quite the same thing - because Imperial Guard can take lots of cheap mortars....

But yeah, primarily it's a gun-bunker. Take a squad or two inside to provide fire to the flanks in case of deep strikers and to man the heavy stubbers, and maybe an enginseer to repair it.

To be honest, I'd be intrigued to try the cadian superheavy tank company as an army...a Stormlord gives you somewhere to embark the enginseer.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8500833.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8500833.page GMT Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star?
 Tenzilla wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
 Tenzilla wrote:
I love my baneblade...however shortly after I got mine assembled my friend bought 2 D-Thirsters...its nearly pointless to field it against that. If I get first turn it still hardly survives past turn 2.

That is my issue with super heavies/D weapons in normal 40k


Reserving the superheavy might help? It seems as if people always want their cool toys out early and often but there are a lot of good tools for whittling the enemy anti-tank before the actual tanks come on. So its a thought. And a Comms relay can help you make sure it comes in when you want it to.


Oh boy I never had considered putting 600 pts in reserves...That almost seems more risky than leaving it on the table to start.


Side note: here is an example of me reserving a toooooon. Works good. I'm the Necron player.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MdvHJw3kLw&feature=youtu.be]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8502274.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8502274.page GMT Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star?
Edit: Also where does it say you can have more than 1 unit embarked at once? Is that a super heavy rule in Escalation or is it in IA somewhere? IT's not listed in the PDF I found on oocites' website.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8513779.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8513779.page GMT Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star?
Its in the new Mont'Ka book.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8514736.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8514736.page GMT Re:Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star? HP's.

Honestly, I wouldn't even bother with the Stormlord's transport capacity. I'd just sit it somewhere on my board edge and go ham with 30 str6 ap3 shots a turn. With the armored ceramite upgrade and it's rear on the table edge whatever attempts to deep-strike is going to have a hell of a time trying to take it out. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8515016.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8515016.page GMT Re:Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star?
Natalya wrote:
It has 9 HP's.

Honestly, I wouldn't even bother with the Stormlord's transport capacity. I'd just sit it somewhere on my board edge and go ham with 30 str6 ap3 shots a turn. With the armored ceramite upgrade and it's rear on the table edge whatever attempts to deep-strike is going to have a hell of a time trying to take it out.


That's usually my tactic if I ever take it. None of the imperial guard Baneblades or their variants have access to ceramite armor though, unless there's some option I'm not seeing in one of the codices or books. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8516153.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8516153.page GMT Re:Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star?
Dark Angels Combined Arms Detachment
HQ
(90) Techmarine: Servo-Harness
Troops
(60) 5 Scouts
(60) 5 Scouts
Heavy Support
(210) Devastator Squad: 4 Grav-Cannons
(210) Devastator Squad: 4 Grav-Cannons
(210) Devastator Squad: 4 Grav-Cannons
Lord of War
(215) Azrael-Warlord

Imperial Guard Combined Arms Detachment
HQ
(95) Company Command Squad: Master of Ordnance, Plasma Gun
Troops
(60) 10 Veterans
(60) 10 Veterans
Lord of War
(480) Stormlord

Inquisition Detachment
HQ
(100) Inquisitor Coteaz

Basically, the devastator squads shoot out of the stormlord which is protected by Azrael's 4++, while Coteaz prevents deep strikers from getting within range to deal serious damage.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8516607.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8516607.page GMT Re:Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star?
 chrispy1991 wrote:
Natalya wrote:
It has 9 HP's.

Honestly, I wouldn't even bother with the Stormlord's transport capacity. I'd just sit it somewhere on my board edge and go ham with 30 str6 ap3 shots a turn. With the armored ceramite upgrade and it's rear on the table edge whatever attempts to deep-strike is going to have a hell of a time trying to take it out.


That's usually my tactic if I ever take it. None of the imperial guard Baneblades or their variants have access to ceramite armor though, unless there's some option I'm not seeing in one of the codices or books.
Ah, my bad. It only has it in it's 30K variant I guess.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8516755.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8516755.page GMT Re:Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star?
Natalya wrote:
 chrispy1991 wrote:
Natalya wrote:
It has 9 HP's.

Honestly, I wouldn't even bother with the Stormlord's transport capacity. I'd just sit it somewhere on my board edge and go ham with 30 str6 ap3 shots a turn. With the armored ceramite upgrade and it's rear on the table edge whatever attempts to deep-strike is going to have a hell of a time trying to take it out.


That's usually my tactic if I ever take it. None of the imperial guard Baneblades or their variants have access to ceramite armor though, unless there's some option I'm not seeing in one of the codices or books.
Ah, my bad. It only has it in it's 30K variant I guess.


Now you're making me want to play 30k...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8516820.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8516820.page GMT Re:Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star?
Natalya wrote:
It has 9 HP's.

Honestly, I wouldn't even bother with the Stormlord's transport capacity. I'd just sit it somewhere on my board edge and go ham with 30 str6 ap3 shots a turn. With the armored ceramite upgrade and it's rear on the table edge whatever attempts to deep-strike is going to have a hell of a time trying to take it out.


How are you getting access to the Ceramite upgrade?

* * *

Sorry for the duplicate post. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8517990.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8517990.page GMT Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8518061.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8518061.page GMT Re:Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star? SM gladius crap you are at a severe disadvantage. At best my list (see below) can kill three units a turn maybe 3.5 if the scouts get lucky. And if it's an objective based game or table quarters like Nova does you're really hosed. Now in a friendly game at the club it would be kinda fun to play but at the tournament level you'll bump into mission problems I think.

Anyway here's what I came up with based on your video:

Total Roster Cost: 1850

: Combined Arms Detachment
Primaris Psyker ML2
Primaris Psyker ML2
Enginseer
5 Servitors
Enginseer
5 Servitors
Infantry Platoon
Platoon Command Squad
Infantry Squad
Infantry Squad
Stormlord

: Cult Mechanicus Allied Detachment
1 Tech-Priest Dominus w/ Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land
4 Kataphron Destroyers with heavy grav
3 Kataphron Destroyers with heavy grav

: WS Allied Detachment
Librarian ML2
5 Scouts with cloaks
4 Assault Centurions, Twin-Linked Meltagun
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8520219.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8520219.page GMT Astra Militarum Stormlord the most underused Death Star?
as a transport it would probably be best for centurians, or maybe those new space worgen.

One time I just stuck SWS and PCS with flamers in it. 20D3 S4 hits tends to dissuade an assault. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8520560.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/681914/8520560.page GMT